i am all for helping white, just in some other form, preferably some cool 2-3 drop with a cost like WW or 1WW that won't really fit into Abzan
with SFM imo only Abzan, Bloom and Tron benefits
by increasing the meta shares of Tron and Bloom (which are natural predators for control/midrange) you are indirectly harming control, now at least we have Grixis... with SFM i don't even know if we're going to have anything
as other's said if SFM is going to be unbanned, next BL anouncement is going to see BS banned, those 2 are simply too good for modern
even if we get SFM without BS though, SFM will continue to shine against control as a single Sword and it means that control has to kill every single threat out there immediately or lose the game, kinda meh odds...
once again, why assume it works in abzan? theres already tons of artifact hate in the meta, and stripping 5 spots for mystic from abzan cuts creatures that create immediate value. for all you know, abzan with SFM could be strictly worse than abzan without it, legacy shows 0 support for junkblade. in fact, the most succesful SFM decks are d&t and esper, both of which are control shells, indicating to me that SFM fits best in a control shell as a finisher, not a value - midrangey shell.
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wow there, you can doubt many things about this conversation but the fact that SFM can and will fit straight into abzan is something that even the people who support his unban have admitted
why not? it's not intensive in W as to put a strain on a mana base (if it costed WW that would be a whole new story and i would support the unban too) and Abzan is a midrange deck that simply uses the best threats in it's colors
do we really have to get this conversation to 0? why do i assume SFM will be played in Abzan? for the same reason i'd assume goyf would fit into it, sorry but no, i do not have to prove this, just try to build an abzan list without SFM that can be better than a similar one with SFM if you want to support this
for the 6th time: Abzan is the best shell for SFM followed by Esper (midrange with disruption and not control with counterspells), sorry but this is not maths to prove with some equation or something, just do some hypothetical brewing and find out yourself, a while ago i even posted a list of how i envision Abzan with SFM legal (4 confdants 0 rhinos and 4 sfm ofc)
artifact hate is irrelevant, it's like saying goyf is bad because there is spot removal and legacy is an alien format, you can't reall compare it to modern
ps: back to affinity and sfm, i am certain it will be tested and that it will not be bad, i am not certain whether it will stay in
Theres a huge difference between some decks having spot removal for one of your 4-of goyf and everyone having Artifact hate for your 1 of Batterskull. Batterskull dies and your stuck with a 2/2 where you could have had rhino/voice/Tasigur/teeg
You cant just say "I dont need to prove it", because now I get to say storm crow is indeed the best creature in the format, needs to be banned. Dont need to prove it though, other people on the Internet said the same thing
I think a lot of the speculation is being driven by fear and not by testing. My playgroup has tested stoneforge mystic in the current meta this week (I will admit not extensively). We found that while it did change the meta, it did not warp the meta in any material way. The biggest affect it had was allowing jeskai midrange to jump to a tier 1 or 2 deck. Abzan was helped, but had to remove key cards to fit it in. From our limited testing I think stoneforge would be a fine addition to the modern meta. However, I think it would be an even better choice if Batterskull was banned at the same time. We also tested the idea of banning batterskull at the same time and this did make a difference. The only "broken" portion of SFM was when it could get a batterskull out early against aggressive decks. However, aggressive decks still did fine against the stoneforge midrange decks. Again, this doesn't prove anything, but I do think people should really think of how the card would actually play out in the meta rather than the worse case scenario.
Let us all do a thought experiment in a hypothetical world. In this new world Snapcaster Mage is currently banned and is rumored to be unbanned in a month. We would be having the exact same argument right now. All of the individuals who are calling for the end of modern when STM is unbanned would be saying the same thing about Snapcaster Mage. We would hear the following arguments
1. The modern meta would be 90% blue decks
2. You would have to play snapcaster or a linear deck that ignores it
3. You would have to stuff mainboard graveyard hate in your deck to deal with it.
We all now know that these are just fear based concepts and are not true. Snapcaster is possibly the best creature in modern (Tarmogoyf would disagree), but it is not defining or warping the meta by itself. With all of that said, no one is arguing for the banning of snapcaster mage because while it is a valuable card advantage card, it can be interacted with. In addition, it has had a long period of sustained play in which is has not dominated modern so the fear has subsided. I think most would argue that Snapcaster is an inherently more powerful card than stoneforge mystic and yet it has existed fine in modern. In my opinion SFM is similar. It is powerful, but it can be interacted with fairly easily. It would be one of the best cards in modern, but not oppressive in my opinion.
I think I will sleeve up one and test it out, you have inspired me
Congratulations, you have mustered a counterargument that is completely irrelevant to my point, which is that appealing to something back in 2012 is highly questionable for anything relevant to the current format. So, back in 2012 a winning Affinity deck ran Steelshaper's Gift. Do Affinity lists run that anymore? No. So how does that prove anything about the viability of Stoneforge Mystic in current Affinity? Maybe it proves that over three years ago Affinity would have been gung ho to run it, but it's not three years ago anymore.
Heck, if anything you're actually supporting my point with your mentioning of cards in Jund by showing how cards that once were considered good for a deck can end up later on not being good or, in some cases, weren't that great to begin with but it took people a while to figure that out (for example, in that very Top 8 you linked to, one can spy several copies of Explore in the GR Tron list, which was standard at the time but was dropped after people have realized it isn't really that great in the deck).
Come on, you're telling me that you can't see the similarity between a card that shoots for 3 and discards 2, and another card that has a mode that shoots for 1 and discards 1?
Shoot 3, discard 2 is bad.
Shoot 2, discard 1, and some other modes is good.
W, tutor a Plating is bad. (but it was good once, unlike Blightning.)
1W, tutor a Plating, get a 1/2, and some other mode is good.
Why is everyone assuming Abzan will always go T1 discard, T2 SFM, T3 BS, T4 GG ? (Don't even get me started with the guy scooping T1.) That's just wrong. Sure, it can pull this off, but using a christmasland play to claim SFM is too OP for modern, period, is just wrong. In christmasland, K-Command can kill her and either blow the BS up (draw) or discard something else (play). Somebody actually complained about K-Command just interacting 1x1. For real? They print a card that can nullify the SFM package, which you say it's too OP, and you can only complain? Card advantage and mana shortcuts are already in modern.
The same people claiming "you need an immediate answer" then say "dies to removal is a bad argument"... Geez. So, SFM is dealt with. "But they have BS in hand!" So what? It's 5cmc, they may not get to five mana. Even if they get 5 mana, are they going to tap out to cast a card the opponent already knows they have? With so much artifact hate?? With so many Remands?? BS has fallen out of favor in modern, there's a good reason for that. Unbanning 2-drop that can tutor it before just dying isn't going to change that. People: without Jitte, SFM is not that OP.
On another note, somebody else says he's fighting for control's sake against control players. That implies 1) he's not a control player himself and 2) somehow, he knows better than them what they actually need... I just don't get it.
Thank you, CurdBros. And thanks to anyone who is actually testing SFM. It's sad that people that only want to argue for the sake of it will probably dismiss your testing. Keep it up man. Even if it wasn't as extensive as you wanted it to be, it holds more weight than whatever these guys can come up with. The problem isn't that SFM is too OP for Modern. The problem is that it is another great 2-drop for Abzan to play. And while Abzan now is the 10th most played deck, I fear a lot of Jund players will switch (you know, out of hype), warping BGx towards Abzan.
Why is everyone assuming Abzan will always go T1 discard, T2 SFM, T3 BS, T4 GG ? (Don't even get me started with the guy scooping T1.) That's just wrong. Sure, it can pull this off, but using a christmasland play to claim SFM is too OP for modern, period, is just wrong. In christmasland, K-Command can kill her and either blow the BS up (draw) or discard something else (play).
I don't feel like T1 discard into T2 SFM is "christmasland" given that they usually have 6 discard spells maindeck. There are worse odds for getting a T2 Titan.
Anyway, back in christmasland, you thought you'd be safe with Command, but the Abzan deck just did one of these things:
1) discarded your Command with their T1 discard
2) lead with T1 discard T2 Goyf instead, while Command rots in your hand
Why is everyone assuming Abzan will always go T1 discard, T2 SFM, T3 BS, T4 GG ? (Don't even get me started with the guy scooping T1.) That's just wrong. Sure, it can pull this off, but using a christmasland play to claim SFM is too OP for modern, period, is just wrong. In christmasland, K-Command can kill her and either blow the BS up (draw) or discard something else (play).
I don't feel like T1 discard into T2 SFM is "christmasland" given that they usually have 6 discard spells maindeck. There are worse odds for getting a T2 Titan.
Anyway, back in christmasland, you thought you'd be safe with Command, but the Abzan deck just did one of these things:
1) discarded your Command with their T1 discard
2) lead with T1 discard T2 Goyf instead, while Command rots in your hand
1) Even with 7 discard spells maindeck, the odds are 60-65%. With 6 the max is 59%.
2) In christmasland for the K Command player, they either draw Command or the Abzan player doesn't have discard. We can all play this game.
3) T2 Goyf is already happening and nobody complains about it.
Congratulations, you have mustered a counterargument that is completely irrelevant to my point, which is that appealing to something back in 2012 is highly questionable for anything relevant to the current format. So, back in 2012 a winning Affinity deck ran Steelshaper's Gift. Do Affinity lists run that anymore? No. So how does that prove anything about the viability of Stoneforge Mystic in current Affinity? Maybe it proves that over three years ago Affinity would have been gung ho to run it, but it's not three years ago anymore.
Heck, if anything you're actually supporting my point with your mentioning of cards in Jund by showing how cards that once were considered good for a deck can end up later on not being good or, in some cases, weren't that great to begin with but it took people a while to figure that out (for example, in that very Top 8 you linked to, one can spy several copies of Explore in the GR Tron list, which was standard at the time but was dropped after people have realized it isn't really that great in the deck).
Come on, you're telling me that you can't see the similarity between a card that shoots for 3 and discards 2, and another card that has a mode that shoots for 1 and discards 1?
And I also note a certain similarity with Rakdos's Return. How much play has Rakdos's Return ever seen in Jund? One card being similar to a previously-played-but-now-dropped card hardly shows it will be played even though the original was dropped, as shown by Rakdos's Return. You might claim that you have to invest more mana into it in order for it to be better than Blightning, but contrariwise Stoneforge Mystic costs more mana than Steelshaper's Gift.
Also, if your goal was to try to put some similarity between those two particular cards, then why in the world did you mention Jund Charm and therefore confuse the matter?
Shoot 3, discard 2 is bad.
Shoot 2, discard 1, and some other modes is good.
W, tutor a Plating is bad. (but it was good once, unlike Blightning.)
1W, tutor a Plating, get a 1/2, and some other mode is good.
I'm not sure how you can claim that Steelshaper's Gift was good once but then try to dismiss Blightning as never having been good. Blightning was once a staple of Modern Jund, and probably would have remained so for quite some time if Bloodbraid Elf hadn't gotten itself banned and removed the cascade synergy.
sometimes i feelit's hopeless really, no matter how many times you explain certain things, always a new face will jump in and repeat the same arguements you've answered a couple of pages back...
enough of this, i want DRS unbanned, there's not reason for this card to be in the BL any more, Modern is much more powerful and can handle more than people give it credit for and banning 1 drops is ridiculous, this is a format in which you can attack with 8/6 trample/vigilance/haste/double strike by T2, who cares about this tiny thing really?
1) he dies to all commonly played removal in the format, bolt,decay,terminate,dismember,disfigure, kcommand you name it, everything kills this guy even Shock, therefore against any interactive deck he's dead before doing anything
2)he was banned due to Jund dominating, but the meta is different now and Jund much lower compared to it's old percentages, also many of the other decks got new toys to compete with Jund, Jund can barely top8 any big event these days let alone win it, after all it's a fair archetype and a well known police deck, give it some love to help it against linear decks
3)apart from the mana he provides (much like a birds of paradise, yet worse as it requires fetches in a gy) all he does is gain/lose life which is not a very important resource, if it was fetchlands/shocklands would be bad cards, the game is won by card advantage not life gain and this guy just can't provide it
4)there's an abundance of GY hate in modern and in empty GY this guy is just a 1/2 vanila creature, GY is already decent against BG, with him in the deck becomes even weaker to it
5)he doesn't really fit BG's gameplan as there's tension between him and disruption t1, often casting him means that the BG player is passing on his T1 disruption, also he's not much of a topdeck
6)as we know from legacy BUG is a powerful archetype that sees next to 0 play in modern, his unban could introduce this interactive fair and highly interesting archetype, creating diversity and hopefully a T1 BUG control/delver list
7)often he's just a worse Grim Lavamancer as he cannot ping the opponent's creatures for value
i tested DRS and it didn't feel anything format wraping to me, in fact sometimes he was not even drawn and when he was he mostly died to removal
ofc Wizards will just thoughtlessly ban everything for no apparent reason, who's even paying those trained monkeys really? #freemodern
ps: i know this appears to be trolling but honestly it's not, i have no desire to mock or provoke anyone, i just want certain people to see their own arguements used for a different cause in an attempt to help them see why they are not so solid, especially why answers have little to do with how a card is broken or not
Bill- I can only speak for myself, but I don't feel that you are/were trolling anyone. It is always good to have both sides of an argument and to really look at every angle. Your posts always provide several examples of your points and are thorough. Whether people disagree or agree with you is up to them, but I didn't feel you were trolling anyone.
I personally think DRS is much more powerful in modern than SFM would be, but that's an entirely different argument. However, I haven't tested DRS in modern in a long time so I have no evidence to back up my opinion. If you have tested it, I trust that it wouldn't be too bad. I will do testing of my own as well if I ever think it's possible it could be unbanned. I do know that I kept my playset just in case :). To be honest, with so many powerful cards being printed lately I really think WOTC could go back and look into unbanning some of the previously banned cards to see if they work out. I actually wrote to WOTC about banning/unbanning cards for the January announcement. It never hurts to let them know what you think, especially if you can back it up with testing/results.
sometimes i feelit's hopeless really, no matter how many times you explain certain things, always a new face will jump in and repeat the same arguements you've answered a couple of pages back...
enough of this, i want DRS unbanned, there's not reason for this card to be in the BL any more, Modern is much more powerful and can handle more than people give it credit for and banning 1 drops is ridiculous, this is a format in which you can attack with 8/6 trample/vigilance/haste/double strike by T2, who cares about this tiny thing really?
1) he dies to all commonly played removal in the format, bolt,decay,terminate,dismember,disfigure, kcommand you name it, everything kills this guy even Shock, therefore against any interactive deck he's dead before doing anything
2)he was banned due to Jund dominating, but the meta is different now and Jund much lower compared to it's old percentages, also many of the other decks got new toys to compete with Jund, Jund can barely top8 any big event these days let alone win it, after all it's a fair archetype and a well known police deck, give it some love to help it against linear decks
3)apart from the mana he provides (much like a birds of paradise, yet worse as it requires fetches in a gy) all he does is gain/lose life which is not a very important resource, if it was fetchlands/shocklands would be bad cards, the game is won by card advantage not life gain and this guy just can't provide it
4)there's an abundance of GY hate in modern and in empty GY this guy is just a 1/2 vanila creature, GY is already decent against BG, with him in the deck becomes even weaker to it
5)he doesn't really fit BG's gameplan as there's tension between him and disruption t1, often casting him means that the BG player is passing on his T1 disruption, also he's not much of a topdeck
6)as we know from legacy BUG is a powerful archetype that sees next to 0 play in modern, his unban could introduce this interactive fair and highly interesting archetype, creating diversity and hopefully a T1 BUG control/delver list
7)often he's just a worse Grim Lavamancer as he cannot ping the opponent's creatures for value
8) he has anti synergy with Goyf/Scooze, delve and snapcaster, therefore he hardly fits into any T1 archetype
i tested DRS and it didn't feel anything format wraping to me, in fact sometimes he was not even drawn and when he was he mostly died to removal
ofc Wizards will just thoughtlessly ban everything for no apparent reason, who's even paying those trained monkeys really? #freemodern
ps: i know this appears to be trolling but honestly it's not, i have no desire to mock or provoke anyone, i just want certain people to see their own arguements used for a different cause in an attempt to help them see why they are not so solid, especially why answers have little to do with how a card is broken or not
thats pretty sound reasoning actually, now put that energy into finding equally sound reasoning to not unban SFM.
difference between DRS and SFM is one big thing, DRS was tried and proven to be overpowered back then, SFM never got the chance
1 flaw with your logic though, claiming BUG as a strong archetype in legacy actually fights against you, not for you. SFM seeing next to 0 play in legacy is a stronger argument than DRS being OP in legacy by far
i tested DRS and it didn't feel anything format wraping to me, in fact sometimes he was not even drawn and when he was he mostly died to removal
Either you are telling the truth and we can also discuss DRS politely or you are lying, which doesn't add anything to the discussion and clearly shows you're trolling/mocking/provoking, so your PS doesn't matter.
If you're for real, though. We all have actual evidence that DRS ruled Modern, while SFM has never been modern legal. What's riskier? Unbanning a card that's paying for its standard/extended sins or unbanning a card that actually made Jund the monster it was? I think we can all agree on this one. Read the posts above
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Was just thinking about this, maybe this has been mentioned before but if not: what if there wasn't any banlist at all - instead there were card interactions that were banned. So for example a lot of people are talking unban stoneforge mystic, what if the interaction between the mystic and batterskull were banned. So you can have a deck with batterskull and one with the mystic but not a deck with both. Same goes for almost all the other cards on the list. You could pick 2,3,4+ cards that are viable/key components of the supposed brokeness that occurs and simply ban those.
As a player you would be forced to create sub optimal interactions, it has the effect of nerfing the cards but we can also play them in a tournament style.
For people who may say this might be too complicated... I don't think it would be, the cards would still be mentioned, and their interactions would be banned. Why ban the card when its the interaction the card creates that's typically the issue.
Was just thinking about this, maybe this has been mentioned before but if not: what if there wasn't any banlist at all - instead there were card interactions that were banned. So for example a lot of people are talking unban stoneforge mystic, what if the interaction between the mystic and batterskull were banned. So you can have a deck with batterskull and one with the mystic but not a deck with both. Same goes for almost all the other cards on the list. You could pick 2,3,4+ cards that are viable/key components of the supposed brokeness that occurs and simply ban those.
As a player you would be forced to create sub optimal interactions, it has the effect of nerfing the cards but we can also play them in a tournament style.
For people who may say this might be too complicated... I don't think it would be, the cards would still be mentioned, and their interactions would be banned. Why ban the card when its the interaction the card creates that's typically the issue.
because then the cards would be weak enough that no one would play them, making the overcomplications caused by banning a combination of cards a logistical nightmare
also, several cards on the ban list (mental misstep,skullclamp, etc) are just overall strong cards that end up in every single deck, no interaction causes them to be broken, just the card itself is broken
So I do agree that skullclamp being their worst offender and maybe not to be saved, perhaps misstep as well. However this idea would open up most cards/ and it would nerf them which is what they want. Yah, the whole point is that they would be very difficult to make into tier 1 based around them isn't it? That's what got these cards into trouble in the first place, the fact that EVERYONE plays them when they are unbanned. Well, nerf their best interactions not them.
This idea gives the cards a place, however might not guarantee that they see much play, i think that's what wizards would want most isn't it?
- List would look the same btw, just a list of the offending interactions listed below each "banned" card. Its not complicated.
sometimes i feelit's hopeless really, no matter how many times you explain certain things, always a new face will jump in and repeat the same arguements you've answered a couple of pages back...
enough of this, i want DRS unbanned, there's not reason for this card to be in the BL any more, Modern is much more powerful and can handle more than people give it credit for and banning 1 drops is ridiculous, this is a format in which you can attack with 8/6 trample/vigilance/haste/double strike by T2, who cares about this tiny thing really?
DRS already severely warped the format back when BGx didn't have better fetchlands, Tasigur, Rhino, and Kommand. I'm pretty sure it would just warp things more with those cards now present. This is one card I don't expect we'll see unbanned in Modern for at least another 3-4 years.
way overcomplicates the ban list, and this is shortening the list just to shorten it. I've said it a hundred times, there's no inherent value in a shorter ban list.
As for SFM; It's a clearly unsafe unban, whether or not you think the format can "bear it". Therefore it ought to stay on the list. I get that many people are irked by the initial bans. But it's not worth risking a unban then reban. I wouldn't like to see almost ANY of the cards on the current list come off EVER. But if they're gonna take some off they could definitely start with weaker cards than sfm. I'm not buying the justification that it should come off to power up white, especially when it's such a good stuff splash card.
way overcomplicates the ban list, and this is shortening the list just to shorten it. I've said it a hundred times, there's no inherent value in a shorter ban list.
As for SFM; It's a clearly unsafe unban, whether or not you think the format can "bear it". Therefore it ought to stay on the list. .
I really don't see how it complicates anything, you have the same list of cards, they just have listed interactions that are banned but are not banner themselves. Now my thought it just that: its a thought not really fully fleshed out, however:
1. Easy to implement online: Literally a series of IF statements cover the entire list which would be super easy for wizards to do.
2. For live tournaments, if you are using any of the "banned" cards you check for the cards which are no-gos along with that, so that's a 1/2 step more and anyone with a little more deduction prowess than my 3 year old could figure it out. The list itself would not be a "banned" list, it would be a "restricted" style list. If you use a "restricted card" you can check for the interactions. Simple.
3. I agree unbanning SFM is likely a mistake for the good of the game, (if the good of the game is to have variety of plausible top tier decks).
And I also note a certain similarity with Rakdos's Return. How much play has Rakdos's Return ever seen in Jund? One card being similar to a previously-played-but-now-dropped card hardly shows it will be played even though the original was dropped, as shown by Rakdos's Return. You might claim that you have to invest more mana into it in order for it to be better than Blightning, but contrariwise Stoneforge Mystic costs more mana than Steelshaper's Gift.
Also, if your goal was to try to put some similarity between those two particular cards, then why in the world did you mention Jund Charm and therefore confuse the matter?
I'm not sure how you can claim that Steelshaper's Gift was good once but then try to dismiss Blightning as never having been good. Blightning was once a staple of Modern Jund, and probably would have remained so for quite some time if Bloodbraid Elf hadn't gotten itself banned and removed the cascade synergy.
And as I already said, Myr Sire saw 0 play in Affinity while Hangarback Walker sees non-zero play. Stick to cards that were actually played in decks pls.
Kolaghan's Command has a "kill 2 guys" mode. Just like Jund Charm. In fact, after DRS got banned, Jund played Anger of the Gods (+ Courser of Kruphix) in the 3-drop slot.
When was Blightning ever a staple in Jund? None of the T8 Jund decks from pre-DRS GPs played it. During DRS's reign it appeared 3 times in 16 T16 decks, one as a 3-of SB card. And I have no idea why you think it being a staple helps your argument; Blightning (if you treat is as a "staple") -> Kolaghan's Command is an identical trajectory to Steelshaper's Gift -> SFM.
When was Blightning ever a staple in Jund? None of the T8 Jund decks from pre-DRS GPs played it. During DRS's reign it appeared 3 times in 16 T16 decks, one as a 3-of SB card. And I have no idea why you think it being a staple helps your argument; Blightning (if you treat is as a "staple") -> Kolaghan's Command is an identical trajectory to Steelshaper's Gift -> SFM.
I asked about this and the thing is Affinity players may think SFM is too slow of a tutor and would rather use Steelshaper's Gift actually. SFM does not have synergies with their overall game plan. Forget about Affinity, the problem would be Abzan.
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Lightning Bolt is one of the only reasonable answers in Modern to a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. It is part of the reason why the Modern metagame was so drenched in red while Deathrite Shaman was legal. Even when a player has a Lightning Bolt to answer a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman right away, the player casting the Lighting Bolt is merely breaking parity and not getting ahead on tempo.
way overcomplicates the ban list, and this is shortening the list just to shorten it. I've said it a hundred times, there's no inherent value in a shorter ban list.
As for SFM; It's a clearly unsafe unban, whether or not you think the format can "bear it". Therefore it ought to stay on the list. I get that many people are irked by the initial bans. But it's not worth risking a unban then reban. I wouldn't like to see almost ANY of the cards on the current list come off EVER. But if they're gonna take some off they could definitely start with weaker cards than sfm. I'm not buying the justification that it should come off to power up white, especially when it's such a good stuff splash card.
now JTMS helps a weak color? you know that Jace is the blue iconic planeswalker right? like you know Blue? like all the most broken things of all time, with over 60% of the Legacy metagame and Twin in Modern which is winning everything lately (ever since Pod/TC was banned Twin has been the most succesful archetype in almost every major tournamnet especially GP? (he does fit into Twin, i promise)
if color balance is a factor B and U are the most powerful while W is the weakest, R and G are fine, but SFM is not a W card, he's just a reason for BG to splash W over R...
my arguements were seriously flawed btw and none answered them
Seriously, how can SFM be a BG card?
Do you really think SFM can ONLY be used for Abzan, or make Abzan become tier-0?
This is not true at all.
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From now on, I will skip gkourou because this is just a waste of my time.
now JTMS helps a weak color? you know that Jace is the blue iconic planeswalker right? like you know Blue? like all the most broken things of all time, with over 60% of the Legacy metagame and Twin in Modern which is winning everything lately (ever since Pod/TC was banned Twin has been the most succesful archetype in almost every major tournamnet especially GP? (he does fit into Twin, i promise)
if color balance is a factor B and U are the most powerful while W is the weakest, R and G are fine, but SFM is not a W card, he's just a reason for BG to splash W over R...
my arguements were seriously flawed btw and none answered them
Seriously, how can SFM be a BG card? you really think SFM can ONLY be used for Abzan, or make Abzan become tier-0?
This is not true at all.
Indeed, that's no true at all. However, SFM would probably cause all BGx players to go Abzan (~12-17% of the meta) and that would not be healthy for the format.
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Modern:WU WU Control | WBG Abzan Company Frontier:UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
now JTMS helps a weak color? you know that Jace is the blue iconic planeswalker right? like you know Blue? like all the most broken things of all time, with over 60% of the Legacy metagame and Twin in Modern which is winning everything lately (ever since Pod/TC was banned Twin has been the most succesful archetype in almost every major tournamnet especially GP? (he does fit into Twin, i promise)
if color balance is a factor B and U are the most powerful while W is the weakest, R and G are fine, but SFM is not a W card, he's just a reason for BG to splash W over R...
my arguements were seriously flawed btw and none answered them
Seriously, how can SFM be a BG card? you really think SFM can ONLY be used for Abzan, or make Abzan become tier-0?
This is not true at all.
Indeed, that's no true at all. However, SFM would probably cause all BGx players to go Abzan (~12-17% of the meta) and that would not be healthy for the format.
I believe the current BGx (Jund + Abzan) is below 12-17% of the META.
Could SFM increase the BGx META share to 12-17%? This is an open question...
WUBRG Humans
BRW Mardu Pyromancer
UW UW "Control"
UR Blue Moon
Theres a huge difference between some decks having spot removal for one of your 4-of goyf and everyone having Artifact hate for your 1 of Batterskull. Batterskull dies and your stuck with a 2/2 where you could have had rhino/voice/Tasigur/teeg
You cant just say "I dont need to prove it", because now I get to say storm crow is indeed the best creature in the format, needs to be banned. Dont need to prove it though, other people on the Internet said the same thing
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
I think I will sleeve up one and test it out, you have inspired me
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Shoot 3, discard 2 is bad.
Shoot 2, discard 1, and some other modes is good.
W, tutor a Plating is bad. (but it was good once, unlike Blightning.)
1W, tutor a Plating, get a 1/2, and some other mode is good.
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Big Johnny.
The same people claiming "you need an immediate answer" then say "dies to removal is a bad argument"... Geez. So, SFM is dealt with. "But they have BS in hand!" So what? It's 5cmc, they may not get to five mana. Even if they get 5 mana, are they going to tap out to cast a card the opponent already knows they have? With so much artifact hate?? With so many Remands?? BS has fallen out of favor in modern, there's a good reason for that. Unbanning 2-drop that can tutor it before just dying isn't going to change that. People: without Jitte, SFM is not that OP.
On another note, somebody else says he's fighting for control's sake against control players. That implies 1) he's not a control player himself and 2) somehow, he knows better than them what they actually need... I just don't get it.
Thank you, CurdBros. And thanks to anyone who is actually testing SFM. It's sad that people that only want to argue for the sake of it will probably dismiss your testing. Keep it up man. Even if it wasn't as extensive as you wanted it to be, it holds more weight than whatever these guys can come up with. The problem isn't that SFM is too OP for Modern. The problem is that it is another great 2-drop for Abzan to play. And while Abzan now is the 10th most played deck, I fear a lot of Jund players will switch (you know, out of hype), warping BGx towards Abzan.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Anyway, back in christmasland, you thought you'd be safe with Command, but the Abzan deck just did one of these things:
1) discarded your Command with their T1 discard
2) lead with T1 discard T2 Goyf instead, while Command rots in your hand
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Big Johnny.
1) Even with 7 discard spells maindeck, the odds are 60-65%. With 6 the max is 59%.
2) In christmasland for the K Command player, they either draw Command or the Abzan player doesn't have discard. We can all play this game.
3) T2 Goyf is already happening and nobody complains about it.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Also, if your goal was to try to put some similarity between those two particular cards, then why in the world did you mention Jund Charm and therefore confuse the matter?
I'm not sure how you can claim that Steelshaper's Gift was good once but then try to dismiss Blightning as never having been good. Blightning was once a staple of Modern Jund, and probably would have remained so for quite some time if Bloodbraid Elf hadn't gotten itself banned and removed the cascade synergy.
Bill- I can only speak for myself, but I don't feel that you are/were trolling anyone. It is always good to have both sides of an argument and to really look at every angle. Your posts always provide several examples of your points and are thorough. Whether people disagree or agree with you is up to them, but I didn't feel you were trolling anyone.
I personally think DRS is much more powerful in modern than SFM would be, but that's an entirely different argument. However, I haven't tested DRS in modern in a long time so I have no evidence to back up my opinion. If you have tested it, I trust that it wouldn't be too bad. I will do testing of my own as well if I ever think it's possible it could be unbanned. I do know that I kept my playset just in case :). To be honest, with so many powerful cards being printed lately I really think WOTC could go back and look into unbanning some of the previously banned cards to see if they work out. I actually wrote to WOTC about banning/unbanning cards for the January announcement. It never hurts to let them know what you think, especially if you can back it up with testing/results.
thats pretty sound reasoning actually, now put that energy into finding equally sound reasoning to not unban SFM.
difference between DRS and SFM is one big thing, DRS was tried and proven to be overpowered back then, SFM never got the chance
1 flaw with your logic though, claiming BUG as a strong archetype in legacy actually fights against you, not for you. SFM seeing next to 0 play in legacy is a stronger argument than DRS being OP in legacy by far
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
Either you are telling the truth and we can also discuss DRS politely or you are lying, which doesn't add anything to the discussion and clearly shows you're trolling/mocking/provoking, so your PS doesn't matter.
If you're for real, though. We all have actual evidence that DRS ruled Modern, while SFM has never been modern legal. What's riskier? Unbanning a card that's paying for its standard/extended sins or unbanning a card that actually made Jund the monster it was? I think we can all agree on this one. Read the posts above
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
As a player you would be forced to create sub optimal interactions, it has the effect of nerfing the cards but we can also play them in a tournament style.
For people who may say this might be too complicated... I don't think it would be, the cards would still be mentioned, and their interactions would be banned. Why ban the card when its the interaction the card creates that's typically the issue.
GWBoglesGW///URDelverUR WVial-knightsW
because then the cards would be weak enough that no one would play them, making the overcomplications caused by banning a combination of cards a logistical nightmare
also, several cards on the ban list (mental misstep,skullclamp, etc) are just overall strong cards that end up in every single deck, no interaction causes them to be broken, just the card itself is broken
UWRjeskai nahiri UWR
UBRgrixis titi UBR
UBRgrixis delverUBR
UR ur kikimite UR
EDH
RUG Riku of Two Reflections RUG
UBR Marchesa, the Black Rose UBR
UBRGYidris, Maelstrom Wielder UBRG
UBRJeleva, Nephalia's ScourgeUBR
This idea gives the cards a place, however might not guarantee that they see much play, i think that's what wizards would want most isn't it?
- List would look the same btw, just a list of the offending interactions listed below each "banned" card. Its not complicated.
GWBoglesGW///URDelverUR WVial-knightsW
DRS already severely warped the format back when BGx didn't have better fetchlands, Tasigur, Rhino, and Kommand. I'm pretty sure it would just warp things more with those cards now present. This is one card I don't expect we'll see unbanned in Modern for at least another 3-4 years.
As for SFM; It's a clearly unsafe unban, whether or not you think the format can "bear it". Therefore it ought to stay on the list. I get that many people are irked by the initial bans. But it's not worth risking a unban then reban. I wouldn't like to see almost ANY of the cards on the current list come off EVER. But if they're gonna take some off they could definitely start with weaker cards than sfm. I'm not buying the justification that it should come off to power up white, especially when it's such a good stuff splash card.
I really don't see how it complicates anything, you have the same list of cards, they just have listed interactions that are banned but are not banner themselves. Now my thought it just that: its a thought not really fully fleshed out, however:
1. Easy to implement online: Literally a series of IF statements cover the entire list which would be super easy for wizards to do.
2. For live tournaments, if you are using any of the "banned" cards you check for the cards which are no-gos along with that, so that's a 1/2 step more and anyone with a little more deduction prowess than my 3 year old could figure it out. The list itself would not be a "banned" list, it would be a "restricted" style list. If you use a "restricted card" you can check for the interactions. Simple.
3. I agree unbanning SFM is likely a mistake for the good of the game, (if the good of the game is to have variety of plausible top tier decks).
GWBoglesGW///URDelverUR WVial-knightsW
Kolaghan's Command has a "kill 2 guys" mode. Just like Jund Charm. In fact, after DRS got banned, Jund played Anger of the Gods (+ Courser of Kruphix) in the 3-drop slot.
When was Blightning ever a staple in Jund? None of the T8 Jund decks from pre-DRS GPs played it. During DRS's reign it appeared 3 times in 16 T16 decks, one as a 3-of SB card. And I have no idea why you think it being a staple helps your argument; Blightning (if you treat is as a "staple") -> Kolaghan's Command is an identical trajectory to Steelshaper's Gift -> SFM.
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Big Johnny.
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
Spending 2-3 mana to answer a 1 mana dire threat seems like a losing proposition most of the time. The 4 life lost from Dismember is very relevant.
Path to Exile is very bad to cast on Deathrite Shaman early game.
Lightning Bolt is one of the only reasonable answers in Modern to a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman. It is part of the reason why the Modern metagame was so drenched in red while Deathrite Shaman was legal. Even when a player has a Lightning Bolt to answer a turn 1 Deathrite Shaman right away, the player casting the Lighting Bolt is merely breaking parity and not getting ahead on tempo.
WURUWr Stoneblade
Modern
WRGNaya Zoo Company
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Because Vision would really destroy the format?
Seriously, how can SFM be a BG card?
Do you really think SFM can ONLY be used for Abzan, or make Abzan become tier-0?
This is not true at all.
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From now on, I will skip gkourou because this is just a waste of my time.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
Frontier: UBR Grixis Control | BRG Jund Delirium
I believe the current BGx (Jund + Abzan) is below 12-17% of the META.
Could SFM increase the BGx META share to 12-17%? This is an open question...
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron