It's a Legacy card that's still in this format for some reason
You say "Legacy card" as if that's somehow a bad thing.
Also, Legacy cards still in this format include: Thoughtseize, Tarmogoyf, the fetchlands, Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Abrupt Decay, and Vendilion Clique, all of which see substantially more play in Legacy than Ensnaring Bridge. If being a Legacy card is a problem, let's get rid of Lightning Bolt, which is played in 38% of Legacy decks, whereas I don't think Ensnaring Bridge even cracks 1%.
When I say "Legacy card", I mean a card that is destructive to a healthy Modern meta, but perfectly fine in Legacy. Examples include Sensei's Divining Top, Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale, Dark Ritual, Lion's Eye Diamond, Dark Depths, and many more. Modern would not be better off with any of these cards.
You know you're not going to win an argument when you are saying that Ensnaring Bridge is a "Legacy card" more than Tarmogoyf is. I play Ensnaring Bridge in Legacy. It IS pretty OP at times, just like the early Blood Moon and creature Blood Moons that I cast. In Legacy, there are too many powerful cards to complain about a card as simple as Bridge.
In Modern where some people consider Tarmogoyf to need a ban, you have Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, and any artifact hate to beat the card. Also, one thing nobody has considered yet is cards that force them to draw cards, although I realize that these are all in Blue outside of niche cards like Howling Mine.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
In a large tournament, such as a Grand Prix, when time for the round expires, players are given five additional turns to complete their game. Usually, this takes a few minutes to conclude the rest of the games. However, a player playing Eggs might have a fifteen-minute turn during the additional turns, delaying the start of the next round by ten minutes or more (beyond the next-longest match). Over the course of a day, this can mean an extra hour of waiting for everyone else in the tournament.
Lantern Control does not have this problem, so the logic doesn't really apply to it.
From what we have seen so far on camera, I agree. But what happens when we have a couple dozen Lantern players and rounds going to time becomes a thing? I mean Eggs rarely went to time on camera, but Wotc had information showing Eggs decks were making tournaments longer. Like I have said, at this time I dont think it deserves a ban, but we have to see how this plays out.
In large tournaments, rounds are gonna go to time no matter what because at least 1 match out of several hundred is gonna have an unintentional draw. The difference between Lantern and Eggs is that with Lantern Control, the extra turns take exactly as long as normal extra turns would take. With Eggs, they took 10-15 minutes.
That is now. Wait till we have a few dozen or so players running Lantern decks that dont have the games under their belt the guy did today. We rarely saw Eggs matches go to time on camera, but Eggs still got hit. This is one of those times where what we see on camera is a small portion of what a deck can do, or not do.
Like I have said though, I am not asking for a ban from the deck from what we have seen. This could be an instance were we get a ban from data we dont have, that Wotc does.
No matter how many Lantern players there are, they still aren't gonna be taking 10-15 minutes to take 2-3 turns simply because the deck has nothing that actually makes it go that long. It plays absurdly long games. It goes to time a lot. But it does not make the extra turns last forever.
I think modern doesn't need any more bannings.. it seems to be a well diverse play and no one deck is dominating the format. Actually I think they should look into unbanning some cards. Banning cards because they are heavey used, for example lightning bolt, would be stupid choice by wizards.
I'm pretty lost on how people think that Lantern would have 10 minute turns. Once they have to lock its all in choosing what the opponent gets to keep as far as I can tell. You look at their top deck, then your hand and board. Does that top deck help them out of the lock, and can you do anything about it if they do? If so, mill it. Repeat as necessary. A decent player should be able to get through a turn fairly quickly once they can understand what they loose to.
I think that banning Ensnaring Bridge would not completely destroy the Lantern deck (like banning Lantern would), but it would cripple it and force it to pick a role, filling the gap with death and taxes style cards or targeted removal and board wipes like traditional control. The way the deck operates right now just shuts opponents off from playing rather than answering threats. Nothing was more apparent than seeing double Exarch on the field and double Twin in hand with a dozen or so lands in play. BBD just shrugs and makes Elsik play it out for a good 20 minutes.
I think anyone calling for Lantern Control to be banned is overreacting quite a bit, but now that I think about it this whole Lantern fiasco makes it seem pretty ridiculous that Sword of the Meek is banned. Wizards doesn't want to "oppress aggro decks" by allowing a two-card combo that gains you life and makes you dudes for a reasonable price, but then a card that literally locks any fair creature deck out of the game if they can't destroy it (Ensnaring Bridge) is perfectly ok? Hmm...
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I'm so done with this thread. At first it was sort of fun to think out an argument about X and Y and hypothesize. Then it was fun because of the lulz, thanks Bocephus! But it seems unless GBx wins an event (maybe even then) we have a slew of children screaming, not arguing, not hypothesizing, not testing, just flat out two-year-old screaming for bans. I fail to see the usefulness of this thread beyond having a centralized place for these people have their fits. That isn't useful, productive, or entertaining. And that's just sad.
I recently found a post by Ktkenshnx on MTGSource's modern forums, where he actually tried defending you people! But despite their modern forums being largely dead and full elitist jerkoffs, they are definitely correct in their opinion about the uselessness of this forum, especially when so much of the discussion here takes place in this thread. Really, grow up.
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I would like to see wizards unban everything in modern for one month just to see what the format would really look like. Since day one of moderns existence there has been cards on the ban list, we never got to fully experience what the real modern format would have been.
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I don't see why: when you have no outs to win the game you can just scoop to gain some time. Just like you should scoop to a mindslaver lock. My point is that the argument that "this deck is so boring it takes forever to win" is irrelevant when the deck essentially won on turn 5. When the lantern player has the combo set up and can deal with your draw step, there is no need to continue playing (several mill stones + possibility of shuffling via lantern makes it extremely unlikely you'll draw an out)
And since we're speaking about lantern for the last 2-3 pages, I am by no means an expert but have played a good number of games against an experienced pilot of the deck and it does win fairly quickly once the lock is in place anyway
I am glad there is no big hate rising over lantern control. Obviously some people suggest bannings but in my view overall the deck is ok. Yes it is not funny when you are locked up and can't do anything but the same goes for any combo deck. It is not funny to lose to a resolved splinter twin, nor to scapeshift, nor to an assembled tron. The difference with lantern control is that the combo won't insta-kill you but lock you out of the game and take some time to finish the job. It is a deck with which you can interact however and there are the tools in the format to keep it in check.
Finally modern has stabilized to a diverse format where a top 32 can be full of different decks, aggro, midrange, control, combo, prison. Literally there is a deck almost for every flavor in there. Lets leave it like that for a while and see what happens
I think a lot of people here don't really understand Ensnaring Bridge and are misjudging the card. It indeed is the card that makes Lantern Control competitive, but it is not an oppresive OP card overall. Paying 3 and playing Bridge is not OP and does not shut off the attack step that easy. If it were that easy every deck would be playing Bridge. Go on, try playing Bridge on another deck that is not Lantern and see how many creatures will still be attacking through Bridge with your hand full of counters, removal, creatures and whatnot. Specially keep attention on how long that Bridge remains on the field in a meta filled with Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Cryptic Command and many other answers to Bridge. Lantern Control was designed to go Hellbent and remain Hellbent specifically to keep Bridge active, playing Hellbent is not a small feat, I don't think there is another deck that can do it. Even Hellbent creatures like Noble Heirarch, Ornithopter+Signal Pest or insta speed Cranial Plating can also get trhough, Doran, Siege Commander hits for 5 under Bridge, Spellskite in infect can swing and then get pumped, or Spellskite pumped with Kessig Wolf Run or any other pump land and so on. Bridge is not OP, it needs the deck to remain Hellbent at all times to be effective, as even 1 card in hand lets Twin go off. Other than playing Hellbent there reason Bridge thrives in Lantern Control is because Lantern can protect it from hate cards by milling the hate cards, thats not something any other deck can do easily. If you play Bridge in another deck it will last as long as the opponent topdecks a hate card for it, something not easily done against Lantern Control. The interaction of Bridge plus the Lantern lock is what makes it effective. Lantern cannot competitively keep up with other decks without Bridge and Bridge cannot realistically compete with other decks without the Lantern lock. Even W lockdown decks and 8Rack, prison style decks, don't like playing Bridge that much.
All that said, if wizards deems it necessary in the future to nerf the deck, yes, Ensnaring Bridge is the card to cut.
I'm so done with this thread. At first it was sort of fun to think out an argument about X and Y and hypothesize. Then it was fun because of the lulz, thanks Bocephus! But it seems unless GBx wins an event (maybe even then) we have a slew of children screaming, not arguing, not hypothesizing, not testing, just flat out two-year-old screaming for bans. I fail to see the usefulness of this thread beyond having a centralized place for these people have their fits. That isn't useful, productive, or entertaining. And that's just sad.
I recently found a post by Ktkenshnx on MTGSource's modern forums, where he actually tried defending you people! But despite their modern forums being largely dead and full elitist jerkoffs, they are definitely correct in their opinion about the uselessness of this forum, especially when so much of the discussion here takes place in this thread. Really, grow up.
People just clamor for bans of any card they don't like to play against. Some people will just never be happy unless the meta is like 3 decks of their choosing.
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I am glad there is no big hate rising over lantern control. Obviously some people suggest bannings but in my view overall the deck is ok. Yes it is not funny when you are locked up and can't do anything but the same goes for any combo deck. It is not funny to lose to a resolved splinter twin, nor to scapeshift, nor to an assembled tron. The difference with lantern control is that the combo won't insta-kill you but lock you out of the game and take some time to finish the job. It is a deck with which you can interact however and there are the tools in the format to keep it in check.
Finally modern has stabilized to a diverse format where a top 32 can be full of different decks, aggro, midrange, control, combo, prison. Literally there is a deck almost for every flavor in there. Lets leave it like that for a while and see what happens
too much diversity is bad for a format with not enough general answers. It comes to the point where winning is more luck than skill, if lantern becomes tier 1 what becomes of it?
Punishing Fire can be put into far more decks than Ensnaring Bridge and those decks are a lot harder to hate out than Bridge decks.
I agree with the first part of your statement, but not with the second part. You're hoping to find your artifact hate and hoping that your opponent doesn't draw Academy Ruins or multiple Bridges.
Ironically, GBx has the best answer to Ensnaring Bridge, assuming, you know, it doesn't get Thoughtseized, IOKed, or milled away.
But that seems awfully lot like Affinity when one gets down to it. You're hoping to find your artifact hate and hoping that your opponent doesn't simply kill you off in the meantime.
As I and others have pointed out, there's no shortage of decks that just win the game if you don't have the applicable hate before they beat you (or the ability to win before they do), like Scapeshift, Twin, Affinity, Tron, etc. Lantern Control is just a bit slower about winning the game.
It's not easy to draw your out through Codex Shredder+Lantern, but it's even harder to draw it after you're at -16 life from Scapeshift.
(bold statement)IF lantern ever became tier 1 it would probably get a nerf or ban......what smart comment do you have to say to that?
I am glad there is no big hate rising over lantern control. Obviously some people suggest bannings but in my view overall the deck is ok. Yes it is not funny when you are locked up and can't do anything but the same goes for any combo deck. It is not funny to lose to a resolved splinter twin, nor to scapeshift, nor to an assembled tron. The difference with lantern control is that the combo won't insta-kill you but lock you out of the game and take some time to finish the job. It is a deck with which you can interact however and there are the tools in the format to keep it in check.
Finally modern has stabilized to a diverse format where a top 32 can be full of different decks, aggro, midrange, control, combo, prison. Literally there is a deck almost for every flavor in there. Lets leave it like that for a while and see what happens
too much diversity is bad for a format with not enough general answers. It comes to the point where winning is more luck than skill, if lantern becomes tier 1 what becomes of it?
I don't think it will become because it is easy to hate. And there are quite enough general answers in the format. People just need to adjust their sideboards a little bit. Run more vandalblast instead of ancient grudge for example. Or white might get a boost because of stony silence. I can't see why would diversity every be bad.
Well you can concede when the game is obviously lost you know...saves time off the round to if you happen to go to game 3 or play a slow deck
I imagine this has been pointed out thousands of times on here before but this is a pretty terrible argument for, or against, a deck, man.
How? If the game is obviously lost, you really have no right to complain if you insist on spending time playing it out.
Cryptic Command, bounce the bridge and swing for lethal. I've done this against the deck before, despite being in a "lock". The lock is extremely difficult but not impossible. Scooping when there is still the ability to win is not an easy or fun choice.
I don't buy the "I can't scoop, because I still have a chance" argument. If the deck has you in a firm lock and by firm lock I mean Bridge, Lantern and 2-3 millstones you have to hit runner-runner-runner-runner-runner-runner-runner (he can both mill at end of your turn, untap and do it again on his turn). Technically it's possible but so is Twin miss clicking, timing out or disconnecting during his combo. If you wanna play to all of your outs then that's fine but be prepared for some boring scenarios. A lot of people scoop in far less marginal scenarios against other decks. And lets be realistic, giving up on 0.00001% EV isn't gonna affect your long term results. Here I'm not talking about people having a realistic shot of getting out of the lock, I'm talking about when the 3rd Stone has landed and the rest of the game is just a formality. In my experience Lantern getting to that point happens rather quickly (though I have limited experience against the deck, I'll have to admit). It also seemed that way on camera.
I think a lot of people here don't really understand Ensnaring Bridge and are misjudging the card. It indeed is the card that makes Lantern Control competitive, but it is not an oppresive OP card overall. Paying 3 and playing Bridge is not OP and does not shut off the attack step that easy. If it were that easy every deck would be playing Bridge. Go on, try playing Bridge on another deck that is not Lantern and see how many creatures will still be attacking through Bridge with your hand full of counters, removal, creatures and whatnot. Specially keep attention on how long that Bridge remains on the field in a meta filled with Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, Cryptic Command and many other answers to Bridge. Lantern Control was designed to go Hellbent and remain Hellbent specifically to keep Bridge active, playing Hellbent is not a small feat, I don't think there is another deck that can do it. Even Hellbent creatures like Noble Heirarch, Ornithopter+Signal Pest or insta speed Cranial Plating can also get trhough, Doran, Siege Commander hits for 5 under Bridge, Spellskite in infect can swing and then get pumped, or Spellskite pumped with Kessig Wolf Run or any other pump land and so on. Bridge is not OP, it needs the deck to remain Hellbent at all times to be effective, as even 1 card in hand lets Twin go off. Other than playing Hellbent there reason Bridge thrives in Lantern Control is because Lantern can protect it from hate cards by milling the hate cards, thats not something any other deck can do easily. If you play Bridge in another deck it will last as long as the opponent topdecks a hate card for it, something not easily done against Lantern Control. The interaction of Bridge plus the Lantern lock is what makes it effective. Lantern cannot competitively keep up with other decks without Bridge and Bridge cannot realistically compete with other decks without the Lantern lock. Even W lockdown decks and 8Rack, prison style decks, don't like playing Bridge that much.
All that said, if wizards deems it necessary in the future to nerf the deck, yes, Ensnaring Bridge is the card to cut.
I don't really want to humor this, but do you think the deck could survive off of ghostly prison as a replacement and some tweaking? I'm fiddling with a semi-well known brew that can lock with avatar of hope, favor of the mighty, and leyline of sanctity. I could see blazing archon or some other way to establish a 'no attacks' lock of some sort.
Decks abusing Bridge arent new. That was the linchpin of 8rack as well, 8rack just never won anything of consequence in paper that I was around for.
Indeed, a lot of decks have tried to rely on Bridge to no avail.
8Rack moved away from Bridge in favor of Pack Rat and other stuff. It now plays maybe 2 Bridge, most times in the board. This is because 8Rack has to target itself with discard spells to go Hellbent for Bridge and even then, it cannot protect it from topdecked hate cards.
W/x Lockdown decks also liked the Bridge, but it prefers Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety because they do not play Hellbent.
Bridge is an easy to deal with card unless you can actively protect it while remaining Hellbent, something Lantern Control is good at.
What I mean is, Bridge could be banned because it is bonkers in Lantern Control, not because it is an OP card.
I dont know that Lantern is that scary. You where right that there is a lot of potential for interaction pre-lock, and there are some cards out there I have not seen discussed that I think could deal with it (I'll have to test) so we will see.
I don't buy the "I can't scoop, because I still have a chance" argument. If the deck has you in a firm lock and by firm lock I mean Bridge, Lantern and 2-3 millstones you have to hit runner-runner-runner-runner-runner-runner-runner (he can both mill at end of your turn, untap and do it again on his turn). Technically it's possible but so is Twin miss clicking, timing out or disconnecting during his combo. If you wanna play to all of your outs then that's fine but be prepared for some boring scenarios. A lot of people scoop in far less marginal scenarios against other decks. And lets be realistic, giving up on 0.00001% EV isn't gonna affect your long term results. Here I'm not talking about people having a realistic shot of getting out of the lock, I'm talking about when the 3rd Stone has landed and the rest of the game is just a formality. In my experience Lantern getting to that point happens rather quickly (though I have limited experience against the deck, I'll have to admit). It also seemed that way on camera.
Sometimes it takes 20-30 minutes and dozens of turns to establish that kind of lock though. And that's the thing, it's still never a 100% lock. It's a sliding scale depending on how many pieces are out. So it's up to the opponent to decide at what point is the game unwinnable? Because Lantern doesn't really present any actual pressure to win until very,very late in the game. And even at that point, it's a +/-10 turn clock.
Banning Bridge and forcing them to rely on traditional removal would at least allow a game to be played.
You know you're not going to win an argument when you are saying that Ensnaring Bridge is a "Legacy card" more than Tarmogoyf is. I play Ensnaring Bridge in Legacy. It IS pretty OP at times, just like the early Blood Moon and creature Blood Moons that I cast. In Legacy, there are too many powerful cards to complain about a card as simple as Bridge.
In Modern where some people consider Tarmogoyf to need a ban, you have Abrupt Decay, Kolaghan's Command, and any artifact hate to beat the card. Also, one thing nobody has considered yet is cards that force them to draw cards, although I realize that these are all in Blue outside of niche cards like Howling Mine.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)No matter how many Lantern players there are, they still aren't gonna be taking 10-15 minutes to take 2-3 turns simply because the deck has nothing that actually makes it go that long. It plays absurdly long games. It goes to time a lot. But it does not make the extra turns last forever.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Modern
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Affinity (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/stega/)
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Heavenly Inferno Kaalia of the Vast (http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/heavenly-inferno-revised/)
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UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
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Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
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I recently found a post by Ktkenshnx on MTGSource's modern forums, where he actually tried defending you people! But despite their modern forums being largely dead and full elitist jerkoffs, they are definitely correct in their opinion about the uselessness of this forum, especially when so much of the discussion here takes place in this thread. Really, grow up.
And since we're speaking about lantern for the last 2-3 pages, I am by no means an expert but have played a good number of games against an experienced pilot of the deck and it does win fairly quickly once the lock is in place anyway
Currently Playing:
Modern Grixis Shadow, Storm
Legacy: Grixis Delver, Sneak and Show
Duel Commander: Kess High Tide
Vintage Big blue(MTGO)
Finally modern has stabilized to a diverse format where a top 32 can be full of different decks, aggro, midrange, control, combo, prison. Literally there is a deck almost for every flavor in there. Lets leave it like that for a while and see what happens
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
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All that said, if wizards deems it necessary in the future to nerf the deck, yes, Ensnaring Bridge is the card to cut.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
People just clamor for bans of any card they don't like to play against. Some people will just never be happy unless the meta is like 3 decks of their choosing.
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UB Faeries (15-6-0)
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UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
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Cryptic Command, bounce the bridge and swing for lethal. I've done this against the deck before, despite being in a "lock". The lock is extremely difficult but not impossible. Scooping when there is still the ability to win is not an easy or fun choice.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
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Spirits
I don't really want to humor this, but do you think the deck could survive off of ghostly prison as a replacement and some tweaking? I'm fiddling with a semi-well known brew that can lock with avatar of hope, favor of the mighty, and leyline of sanctity. I could see blazing archon or some other way to establish a 'no attacks' lock of some sort.
Indeed, a lot of decks have tried to rely on Bridge to no avail.
8Rack moved away from Bridge in favor of Pack Rat and other stuff. It now plays maybe 2 Bridge, most times in the board. This is because 8Rack has to target itself with discard spells to go Hellbent for Bridge and even then, it cannot protect it from topdecked hate cards.
W/x Lockdown decks also liked the Bridge, but it prefers Ghostly Prison and Sphere of Safety because they do not play Hellbent.
Bridge is an easy to deal with card unless you can actively protect it while remaining Hellbent, something Lantern Control is good at.
What I mean is, Bridge could be banned because it is bonkers in Lantern Control, not because it is an OP card.
"When you get your opponent down to 0 sanity, you win the game!"
All in all, welcome Prison to Modern.
Spirits
Sometimes it takes 20-30 minutes and dozens of turns to establish that kind of lock though. And that's the thing, it's still never a 100% lock. It's a sliding scale depending on how many pieces are out. So it's up to the opponent to decide at what point is the game unwinnable? Because Lantern doesn't really present any actual pressure to win until very,very late in the game. And even at that point, it's a +/-10 turn clock.
Banning Bridge and forcing them to rely on traditional removal would at least allow a game to be played.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate