i'd like to see them unban dig through time. it was just unfortunate collateral at the time.
Twin isn't even tier 1 anymore...
No one should be using this as a justification for any unbanning (or banning, for that matter). Just because no single Twin variant had enough showings to crack the tier 1, the collective Twin share is still about 10%. I'm also sure that at least one of those variants will return to tier 1 by the end of the month: this temporary absence is mostly just a function of a midsummer offseason than Twin's relevance or lack of relevance. There might be arguments for DTT's unbanning, but "Twin isn't even tier 1 anymore" isn't one of them.
i'd like to see them unban dig through time. it was just unfortunate collateral at the time.
Twin isn't even tier 1 anymore...
No one should be using this as a justification for any unbanning (or banning, for that matter). Just because no single Twin variant had enough showings to crack the tier 1, the collective Twin share is still about 10%. I'm also sure that at least one of those variants will return to tier 1 by the end of the month: this temporary absence is mostly just a function of a midsummer offseason than Twin's relevance or lack of relevance. There might be arguments for DTT's unbanning, but "Twin isn't even tier 1 anymore" isn't one of them.
My argument isn't that Twin will never be tier 1 again. My argument is that the current meta numbers show that Twin can be hated out and that it won't always be tier 1, which opens up the possibility for Dig to be unbanned, just like if Jund was hovering between tier 2 and tier 1 there would be a larger chance that BBE could be unbanned.
i just want to play it in wur midrange. its still sleeved in my wur midrange deck i last played in january. haven't played a game since.
I will admit that it would be sweet in UWR Midrange, but seeing as how there have been talks about it potentially being banned in Legacy, I believe that it is clear that it should remain banned in Modern. I know that I originally didn't believe this and was initially pretty upset about it being banned, but recently I have realized that it was a good, albeit slightly too quick decision.
Modern doesn't have the graveyard fuel that Legacy has. This is true, but it is actually comparable. Many delve spells currently see play and are very good because of things like Git Probe and Thought Scour. Certain Dig decks will just pull away in the midgame if they have access to Dig Through Time and I believe that Wizards view of Blue's place in Modern doesn't really jive with those Dig hijinks. I don't see what's wrong with having Blue as one of the best colors. It's always been part of the game and actually is my favorite color. But I can empathize with those who have gotten tired of it and enjoy other strategies.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Lol Skullclamp is possibly the only card I know of that is so broken it could've earned an exception and been banned in vintage for power reasons.
How, considering it isn't even powerful enough (in Vintage) to be restricted?
You claim Skullclamp is the only card you can think of that could earn a banning in Vintage for power reasons, but I can think of 41 cards immediately that would be far more justified a banning in Vintage than Skullclamp: All the cards that are restricted in Vintage.
Actually, any card that sees any reasonable degree of play in Vintage, restricted or not, is more worthy of earning an exception and being banned because Skullclamp barely even sees play in the format. So I don't know how you can claim that Skullclamp is the only card broken enough to earn that exception for banning when it's hard to justify even restricting it.
Actually forgot it wasn't restricted. I only played against clamp when it was still legal in standard.
Even given that logic, how could you possibly justify the idea that Skullclamp deserves to be BANNED in Vintage more than Ancestral Recall or Black Lotus?
Recall and Lotus are single use without ways to recur them. Skullclamp is continuous overpowered card advantage that can be used over and over again.
Cards being "single use" doesn't mean much if that single use is as powerful as Ancestral Recall and Black Lotus are. One might as well say Curse of the Pierced Heart is better than Lightning Bolt because Lightning Bolt is single use whereas the Curse isn't.
And, really, the data makes it clear which ones are more powerful. Black Lotus sees play in 85% of Vintage decks and Ancestral Recall sees play in 66%. Skullclamp is played in less than 1% of Vintage decks. There's really no coherent argument to be made that Skullclamp somehow deserves to be the exception to the "don't ban cards for power level" rule in Vintage while those cards don't.
I laugh at TC unban talk. The format was Delver+Burn+Pod and nothing else.
I'm confused as to why you're lumping Burn in there. Burn was big at first, but then fell off. In the Day 2 metagame of GP Omaha, Burn (and this is putting all the Burn versions together) was the deck with the 6th largest metagame share (well, it was tied for 6th with Abzan and Auras). Affinity, Scapeshift, and Zoo all managed to get more decks into Day 2 than Burn. So I'm not sure where this idea that Burn was as big as Delver or Pod is coming from. It was big at the start, but it fell off fairly quickly.
And while there probably is some hyperbole meant in the statement that "the format was Delver+Burn+Pod and nothing else," it's still very silly. Add up the metagame shares for those three decks of Day 2 on GP Omaha and you'll find it doesn't even come to 50%. True, it is still a rather high percentage (around 45%, though almost all of the percentage came from Delver and Pod, because again Burn didn't have that big a showing), but that still means that over half of the decks were not one of those three decks, so the "and nothing else" is quite silly. Even looking at the Top 8's we see plenty of other decks for the various Grand Prix. Delver and Pod may have been huge, but they weren't the only game in town.
i just want to play it in wur midrange. its still sleeved in my wur midrange deck i last played in january. haven't played a game since.
I will admit that it would be sweet in UWR Midrange, but seeing as how there have been talks about it potentially being banned in Legacy, I believe that it is clear that it should remain banned in Modern. I know that I originally didn't believe this and was initially pretty upset about it being banned, but recently I have realized that it was a good, albeit slightly too quick decision.
Modern doesn't have the graveyard fuel that Legacy has. This is true, but it is actually comparable. Many delve spells currently see play and are very good because of things like Git Probe and Thought Scour. Certain Dig decks will just pull away in the midgame if they have access to Dig Through Time and I believe that Wizards view of Blue's place in Modern doesn't really jive with those Dig hijinks. I don't see what's wrong with having Blue as one of the best colors. It's always been part of the game and actually is my favorite color. But I can empathize with those who have gotten tired of it and enjoy other strategies.
I agree that the format is probably not ready for Dig right now. However, if fair nonblue decks like Jund continue to get more and more tools like they have been getting recently, then Dig will probably be safe to unban in a couple of years. It wouldn't even be that huge of an improvement for Grixis as they'd need to find replacements for Tasigur and Angler and Twin would be vulnerable to both BGx and resurgent Delver decks with Dig (seriously, WUR Delver with Dig is absurd against decks like Twin). The format might not be ready yet, but it is getting there.
I think Ancestral Vision is a safer unban than Treasure Cruise or Dig through Time. With visions the quickest you'll draw cards is turn 4 , let's be honest in Modern most games are already decided by turn 4.
I think Ancestral Vision is a safer unban than Treasure Cruise or Dig through Time. With visions the quickest you'll draw cards is turn 4 , let's be honest in Modern most games are already decided by turn 4.
This is just blatantly false in the current modern environment.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Current Modern decks BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam UB Reanimator
So... do you guys want me to post the poll or is someone else going to do it?
I ordinarily do it, so I guess I'll do it again. I do want to wait until the Grand Prix's over because that can have a real effect on what people want banned or unbanned.
I am trying to figure out what to do in regards to Grishoalbrand and Amulet Bloom. Calls for bannings on them have receded significantly, so I feel weird listing multiple cards for them (as, among the suggestions for bans, there's disagreement as to what card it should be; I think can think of three frequently floated cards for each, so just saying Summer Bloom seems like it'd be denying anyone the ability to vote for Hive Mind if they'd prefer that). AT the same time, it feels awkward to just say "something from Grishoalbrand" rather than an actual card, because outside of those two there aren't really any specific decks that people would want targeted, just cards, so listing a bunch of cards plus "something from Grishoalbrand" and "something from Amulet Bloom" looks weird. Thoughts, anyone?
@ Lord Seth I think the best way to do it is include cards that people in this thread have said they want banned. So if people in here say Shoal or Bloom need to be banned then those are the cards from the deck that go on the list. That way we can even get some of the stupid suggestions that pop up from time to time, but it excludes stuff like Lanturn of insight that there might be "non official" complaints about.
@ Lord Seth I think the best way to do it is include cards that people in this thread have said they want banned. So if people in here say Shoal or Bloom need to be banned then those are the cards from the deck that go on the list. That way we can even get some of the stupid suggestions that pop up from time to time, but it excludes stuff like Lanturn of insight that there might be "non official" complaints about.
Actually, I was totally planning to include Lantern of Insight. I think it being banned is extraordinarily unlikely, but it's at least seen a small amount of speculation here and elsewhere. I just don't like listing three different cards from one deck that there no longer seems to be too much of a ban mania about.
Here's a hastily assembled list of cards to include, if we go by singular cards:
Amulet of Vigor
Summer Bloom
Primeval Titan
Goryo's Vengeance
Griselbrand
Nourishing Shoal
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt
Snapcaster Mage
Splinter Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Lantern of Insight
Blood Moon
Glistener Elf
Simian Spirit Guide
Okay, some of those seem downright stupid, but I've seen them suggested. I'd rather go overboard in options than force people to choose the vague "Other" option in the banning poll. Anything else to add?
@ Lord Seth I think the best way to do it is include cards that people in this thread have said they want banned. So if people in here say Shoal or Bloom need to be banned then those are the cards from the deck that go on the list. That way we can even get some of the stupid suggestions that pop up from time to time, but it excludes stuff like Lanturn of insight that there might be "non official" complaints about.
Actually, I was totally planning to include Lantern of Insight. I think it being banned is extraordinarily unlikely, but it's at least seen a small amount of speculation here and elsewhere. I just don't like listing three different cards from one deck that there no longer seems to be too much of a ban mania about.
Here's a hastily assembled list of cards to include, if we go by singular cards:
Amulet of Vigor
Summer Bloom
Primeval Titan
Goryo's Vengeance
Griselbrand
Nourishing Shoal
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt
Snapcaster Mage
Splinter Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Lantern of Insight
Blood Moon
Glistener Elf
Simian Spirit Guide
Okay, some of those seem downright stupid, but I've seen them suggested. I'd rather go overboard in options than force people to choose the vague "Other" option in the banning poll. Anything else to add?
I guess you can add Ensnaing Bridge as well as Lantern. Banning Lantern eliminates the deck, Bannings Bridge stops it from being competitive. Putting both options lets us see if people generally want the deck gone or just nerfed.
If you are going with suggested bans from the player base, I guess you would have to add Mox Opal and Collected Company. I was also going to mention Eldolon too but was beaten to that one.
Personally I dont see any need for any bans or unbans. I am enjoying the format and the diverse meta. Just look at the number of different decks seen this weekend in Oklahoma. The format is in a real good place. Of course not everyone will be please with it, but its been that way since the inception of the format.
If anything gets banned it should be Blood Moon for being unfun. There are overly powerful cards in every color in modern but that's why modern is fun, it's not weak tea like standard is.
I think Ancestral Vision is a safer unban than Treasure Cruise or Dig through Time. With visions the quickest you'll draw cards is turn 4 , let's be honest in Modern most games are already decided by turn 4.
This is just blatantly false in the current modern environment.
I may have exaggerated a little. I play burn and most of my games are decided by turn 3 or 4.
Please don't talk about banning everything. It is against the the ban thread rules:
Discussion about dramatically increasing the size of the banlist by more than 2-3 cards is not allowed. In the past, this sort of discussion has derailed the thread into completely unconstructive debate. There is a fine line between approved ban discussion (e.g. cards that are consistently breaking the turn 4 rule in top tier decks, or cards that make oppressive top tier decks) and spammy, prohibited discussion (e.g. banning Immolating Souleater and Fling because they theoretically break the turn 4 rule). If you see someone doing this, report them instead of responding to it. If you have a question about this, feel free to get in touch with staff to ask.
If you are going with suggested bans from the player base, I guess you would have to add Mox Opal and Collected Company. I was also going to mention Eldolon too but was beaten to that one.
Personally I dont see any need for any bans or unbans. I am enjoying the format and the diverse meta. Just look at the number of different decks seen this weekend in Oklahoma. The format is in a real good place. Of course not everyone will be please with it, but its been that way since the inception of the format.
I am not in favor of any bans currently (there are some bans I wouldn't mind, but I can't really say I think they're warranted). However, I figure that on any "what do you want banned if anything?" poll, it would be prudent to list too many things than too few so fewer people have to choose "Other" if there's a card they want gone.
@ Lord Seth I think the best way to do it is include cards that people in this thread have said they want banned. So if people in here say Shoal or Bloom need to be banned then those are the cards from the deck that go on the list. That way we can even get some of the stupid suggestions that pop up from time to time, but it excludes stuff like Lanturn of insight that there might be "non official" complaints about.
Actually, I was totally planning to include Lantern of Insight. I think it being banned is extraordinarily unlikely, but it's at least seen a small amount of speculation here and elsewhere. I just don't like listing three different cards from one deck that there no longer seems to be too much of a ban mania about.
Here's a hastily assembled list of cards to include, if we go by singular cards:
Amulet of Vigor
Summer Bloom
Primeval Titan
Goryo's Vengeance
Griselbrand
Nourishing Shoal
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt
Snapcaster Mage
Splinter Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Lantern of Insight
Blood Moon
Glistener Elf
Simian Spirit Guide
Okay, some of those seem downright stupid, but I've seen them suggested. I'd rather go overboard in options than force people to choose the vague "Other" option in the banning poll. Anything else to add?
@ Lord Seth I think the best way to do it is include cards that people in this thread have said they want banned. So if people in here say Shoal or Bloom need to be banned then those are the cards from the deck that go on the list. That way we can even get some of the stupid suggestions that pop up from time to time, but it excludes stuff like Lanturn of insight that there might be "non official" complaints about.
Actually, I was totally planning to include Lantern of Insight. I think it being banned is extraordinarily unlikely, but it's at least seen a small amount of speculation here and elsewhere. I just don't like listing three different cards from one deck that there no longer seems to be too much of a ban mania about.
Here's a hastily assembled list of cards to include, if we go by singular cards:
Amulet of Vigor
Summer Bloom
Primeval Titan
Goryo's Vengeance
Griselbrand
Nourishing Shoal
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt
Snapcaster Mage
Splinter Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Lantern of Insight
Blood Moon
Glistener Elf
Simian Spirit Guide
Okay, some of those seem downright stupid, but I've seen them suggested. I'd rather go overboard in options than force people to choose the vague "Other" option in the banning poll. Anything else to add?
no cranial plating on the list? lol
Has anyone really complained much about Affinity lately? *shrug* I guess I'll put it in anyway.
Here's the current list:
Amulet of Vigor
Summer Bloom
Primeval Titan
Goryo's Vengeance
Griselbrand
Nourishing Shoal
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt
Snapcaster Mage
Splinter Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Lantern of Insight
Blood Moon
Glistener Elf
Simian Spirit Guide
Blood Moon
Ensnaring Bridge
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Mox Opal
Collected Company
Cranial Plating
No one should be using this as a justification for any unbanning (or banning, for that matter). Just because no single Twin variant had enough showings to crack the tier 1, the collective Twin share is still about 10%. I'm also sure that at least one of those variants will return to tier 1 by the end of the month: this temporary absence is mostly just a function of a midsummer offseason than Twin's relevance or lack of relevance. There might be arguments for DTT's unbanning, but "Twin isn't even tier 1 anymore" isn't one of them.
My argument isn't that Twin will never be tier 1 again. My argument is that the current meta numbers show that Twin can be hated out and that it won't always be tier 1, which opens up the possibility for Dig to be unbanned, just like if Jund was hovering between tier 2 and tier 1 there would be a larger chance that BBE could be unbanned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I will admit that it would be sweet in UWR Midrange, but seeing as how there have been talks about it potentially being banned in Legacy, I believe that it is clear that it should remain banned in Modern. I know that I originally didn't believe this and was initially pretty upset about it being banned, but recently I have realized that it was a good, albeit slightly too quick decision.
Modern doesn't have the graveyard fuel that Legacy has. This is true, but it is actually comparable. Many delve spells currently see play and are very good because of things like Git Probe and Thought Scour. Certain Dig decks will just pull away in the midgame if they have access to Dig Through Time and I believe that Wizards view of Blue's place in Modern doesn't really jive with those Dig hijinks. I don't see what's wrong with having Blue as one of the best colors. It's always been part of the game and actually is my favorite color. But I can empathize with those who have gotten tired of it and enjoy other strategies.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)And, really, the data makes it clear which ones are more powerful. Black Lotus sees play in 85% of Vintage decks and Ancestral Recall sees play in 66%. Skullclamp is played in less than 1% of Vintage decks. There's really no coherent argument to be made that Skullclamp somehow deserves to be the exception to the "don't ban cards for power level" rule in Vintage while those cards don't.
And while there probably is some hyperbole meant in the statement that "the format was Delver+Burn+Pod and nothing else," it's still very silly. Add up the metagame shares for those three decks of Day 2 on GP Omaha and you'll find it doesn't even come to 50%. True, it is still a rather high percentage (around 45%, though almost all of the percentage came from Delver and Pod, because again Burn didn't have that big a showing), but that still means that over half of the decks were not one of those three decks, so the "and nothing else" is quite silly. Even looking at the Top 8's we see plenty of other decks for the various Grand Prix. Delver and Pod may have been huge, but they weren't the only game in town.
I agree that the format is probably not ready for Dig right now. However, if fair nonblue decks like Jund continue to get more and more tools like they have been getting recently, then Dig will probably be safe to unban in a couple of years. It wouldn't even be that huge of an improvement for Grixis as they'd need to find replacements for Tasigur and Angler and Twin would be vulnerable to both BGx and resurgent Delver decks with Dig (seriously, WUR Delver with Dig is absurd against decks like Twin). The format might not be ready yet, but it is getting there.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This is just blatantly false in the current modern environment.
BGW Junk / URB Grixis Shadow / RGB Lantern Control / WUBCBant Eldrazi
Current Legacy decks
BUG Shardless BUG / UWR Predict Miracles / RUG Canadian Thresh / WRBG 4c Loam
UB Reanimator
I am trying to figure out what to do in regards to Grishoalbrand and Amulet Bloom. Calls for bannings on them have receded significantly, so I feel weird listing multiple cards for them (as, among the suggestions for bans, there's disagreement as to what card it should be; I think can think of three frequently floated cards for each, so just saying Summer Bloom seems like it'd be denying anyone the ability to vote for Hive Mind if they'd prefer that). AT the same time, it feels awkward to just say "something from Grishoalbrand" rather than an actual card, because outside of those two there aren't really any specific decks that people would want targeted, just cards, so listing a bunch of cards plus "something from Grishoalbrand" and "something from Amulet Bloom" looks weird. Thoughts, anyone?
Here's a hastily assembled list of cards to include, if we go by singular cards:
Amulet of Vigor
Summer Bloom
Primeval Titan
Goryo's Vengeance
Griselbrand
Nourishing Shoal
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt
Snapcaster Mage
Splinter Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Lantern of Insight
Blood Moon
Glistener Elf
Simian Spirit Guide
Okay, some of those seem downright stupid, but I've seen them suggested. I'd rather go overboard in options than force people to choose the vague "Other" option in the banning poll. Anything else to add?
I guess you can add Ensnaing Bridge as well as Lantern. Banning Lantern eliminates the deck, Bannings Bridge stops it from being competitive. Putting both options lets us see if people generally want the deck gone or just nerfed.
Personally I dont see any need for any bans or unbans. I am enjoying the format and the diverse meta. Just look at the number of different decks seen this weekend in Oklahoma. The format is in a real good place. Of course not everyone will be please with it, but its been that way since the inception of the format.
decks playing:
none
Here's the current list:
Amulet of Vigor
Summer Bloom
Primeval Titan
Goryo's Vengeance
Griselbrand
Nourishing Shoal
Thoughtseize
Tarmogoyf
Lightning Bolt
Snapcaster Mage
Splinter Twin
Deceiver Exarch
Lantern of Insight
Blood Moon
Glistener Elf
Simian Spirit Guide
Blood Moon
Ensnaring Bridge
Eidolon of the Great Revel
Mox Opal
Collected Company
Cranial Plating
I think lantern control is fine
Modern : Huh?
EDH : UBGW Thrasios / Tymna Combo UBGW // GRW Mayael Big Stuff GRW // GU Edric Timewalkers GU