I am not saying I want Brainstorm in Modern, i just wish there was something that would help to smooth out the variance and make the format a bit more skill-based.
Like a Brianstorm for 1U? I think that would be fair for Modern since it's basically a slightly more flexible Telling Time.
I dare to actually push it a bit further and say that right now, the outcome of a match is less decided by skill in Modern than even Standard. Everyone is playing non-interactive decks, and it is often just a matter of what you topdeck. This is also the case in Standard, but the decks are much slower, so one bad topdeck has less of an influence.
Do note the difference between skill on its own and its effect on the outcome: Modern decks are (somewhat) harder to sequence, but after that what's on the top of your deck is much more important in Modern than in Standard. Luck is a very big factor in modern right now.
I dare to actually push it a bit further and say that right now, the outcome of a match is less decided by skill in Modern than even Standard. Everyone is playing non-interactive decks, and it is often just a matter of what you topdeck. This is also the case in Standard, but the decks are much slower, so one bad topdeck has less of an influence.
Do note the difference between skill on its own and its effect on the outcome: Modern decks are (somewhat) harder to sequence, but after that what's on the top of your deck is much more important in Modern than in Standard. Luck is a very big factor in modern right now.
If everybody is playing non-interactive decks how are Twin and Abzan the two top decks in Modern with the highest meta-share?
I dare to actually push it a bit further and say that right now, the outcome of a match is less decided by skill in Modern than even Standard. Everyone is playing non-interactive decks, and it is often just a matter of what you topdeck. This is also the case in Standard, but the decks are much slower, so one bad topdeck has less of an influence.
Do note the difference between skill on its own and its effect on the outcome: Modern decks are (somewhat) harder to sequence, but after that what's on the top of your deck is much more important in Modern than in Standard. Luck is a very big factor in modern right now.
If everybody is playing non-interactive decks how are Twin and Abzan the two top decks in Modern with the highest meta-share?
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Vintage is extremely skill-intensive. Not because the card pool is huge or (just) because the decision trees are insane; decisions in Vintage have a huge impact. Every decision. Tiny decisions. My favorite story about play skill in Vintage is a game that was lost by naming the wrong thing with a Phyrexian Revoker. Someone played two Revokers, one naming Jace and one naming Time Vault. The other player was able to deal with the one naming Jace, then -1 the one naming Vault. If both had named Jace, the player with Revokers would've won.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I dont understand how that is the case. If both had been naming jace than the other player could have just used his time vault unimpeded, he wouldnt have needed to get rid of the evokers.
Unfortunately every try hard from Sacramento to Shanghai preaches from the top of their 27 lands + Mana Reflection that Tooth and Nail and Time Stretch are fine to play in the same turn but Armageddon is unfair.
I am not saying I want Brainstorm in Modern, i just wish there was something that would help to smooth out the variance and make the format a bit more skill-based.
Like a Brianstorm for 1U? I think that would be fair for Modern since it's basically a slightly more flexible Telling Time.
The most vocal problem that people have with Brainstorm is how its so easy for every deck to play. So making the casting cost 1U is too easy to splash.
I think a UU version of Brainstorm would be better at stopping from being splashed in all the decks but also help Modern out. But I might be wrong.
I just want something to flatten out the deck variance going on in Modern.
I am not saying I want Brainstorm in Modern, i just wish there was something that would help to smooth out the variance and make the format a bit more skill-based.
Like a Brianstorm for 1U? I think that would be fair for Modern since it's basically a slightly more flexible Telling Time.
The most vocal problem that people have with Brainstorm is how its so easy for every deck to play. So making the casting cost 1U is too easy to splash.
I think a UU version of Brainstorm would be better at stopping from being splashed in all the decks but also help Modern out. But I might be wrong.
I just want something to flatten out the deck variance going on in Modern.
the problem is you can't just give blue ways to flatten out variance and not give it to the other colors. There is a reason why blue is so much more broken in legacy than any other format, brainstorm. You would need to give the other colors ways for fixing variance as well to keep the playing field level. Vintage does not have this problem because every deck has access to fast mana and great tutors, and brainstorm is restricted. Simply put brainstorm is broken and it makes blue decks far to powerful.
Like I mentioned earlier, I'd be fine with Brainstorm-esque cards in other colors. People splash for colors all the time with really greedy manabases, it really wouldn't be out of left field for that to happen in modern unless it had some kind of Cryptic Command casting cost.
Would something like Sylvan Library be broken in Modern? Its too easily splashable which is a strike against it, and the abundant amount of fetchlands probably put it over the top in the format, but I'm curious to see if everyone else thinks its busted.
I dare to actually push it a bit further and say that right now, the outcome of a match is less decided by skill in Modern than even Standard. Everyone is playing non-interactive decks, and it is often just a matter of what you topdeck. This is also the case in Standard, but the decks are much slower, so one bad topdeck has less of an influence.
Do note the difference between skill on its own and its effect on the outcome: Modern decks are (somewhat) harder to sequence, but after that what's on the top of your deck is much more important in Modern than in Standard. Luck is a very big factor in modern right now.
If everybody is playing non-interactive decks how are Twin and Abzan the two top decks in Modern with the highest meta-share?
Imo even Infect is interactive in a good game. But sometimes you just get nut draws and its t1 glistner, t2 might of 2x 1g pumps, mutagenic mutagenic poison for 11.
I am not saying I want Brainstorm in Modern, i just wish there was something that would help to smooth out the variance and make the format a bit more skill-based.
Like a Brianstorm for 1U? I think that would be fair for Modern since it's basically a slightly more flexible Telling Time.
The most vocal problem that people have with Brainstorm is how its so easy for every deck to play. So making the casting cost 1U is too easy to splash.
I think a UU version of Brainstorm would be better at stopping from being splashed in all the decks but also help Modern out. But I might be wrong.
I just want something to flatten out the deck variance going on in Modern.
the problem is you can't just give blue ways to flatten out variance and not give it to the other colors. There is a reason why blue is so much more broken in legacy than any other format, brainstorm. You would need to give the other colors ways for fixing variance as well to keep the playing field level. Vintage does not have this problem because every deck has access to fast mana and great tutors, and brainstorm is restricted. Simply put brainstorm is broken and it makes blue decks far to powerful.
Exactly. It's either all or nothing.
Speaking of that it is kinda funny how Brainstorm and friends are allowed to dominate and are treated like holy cows while the Black tools like Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal all sit on the banlist.
Definitely some strong bias there which has lead to the way Legacy looks. A circumstance that definitely and fully deserves my hatred.
I could be misremembering things, but when I read that article earlier (before this post was posted), I'm almost certain that at some point he mentioned the financial problem of Legacy/Vintage, and it may have been in the context of the quote posted, meaning he was talking about Modern being a cheaper format to get into than Legacy or Vintage.
I could be wrong, as my memory is notoriously faulty, but I'm almost certain I remember reading him saying something about price (which may or may not have been in the context of the quote), and me thinking "huh, didn't expect to see that on a WOTC article." It wouldn't surprise me if maybe that part was edited out.
Like I mentioned earlier, I'd be fine with Brainstorm-esque cards in other colors. People splash for colors all the time with really greedy manabases, it really wouldn't be out of left field for that to happen in modern unless it had some kind of Cryptic Command casting cost.
Would something like Sylvan Library be broken in Modern? Its too easily splashable which is a strike against it, and the abundant amount of fetchlands probably put it over the top in the format, but I'm curious to see if everyone else thinks its busted.
I dare to actually push it a bit further and say that right now, the outcome of a match is less decided by skill in Modern than even Standard. Everyone is playing non-interactive decks, and it is often just a matter of what you topdeck. This is also the case in Standard, but the decks are much slower, so one bad topdeck has less of an influence.
Do note the difference between skill on its own and its effect on the outcome: Modern decks are (somewhat) harder to sequence, but after that what's on the top of your deck is much more important in Modern than in Standard. Luck is a very big factor in modern right now.
If everybody is playing non-interactive decks how are Twin and Abzan the two top decks in Modern with the highest meta-share?
Imo even Infect is interactive in a good game. But sometimes you just get nut draws and its t1 glistner, t2 might of 2x 1g pumps, mutagenic mutagenic poison for 11.
I could be misremembering things, but when I read that article earlier (before this post was posted), I'm almost certain that at some point he mentioned the financial problem of Legacy/Vintage, and it may have been in the context of the quote posted, meaning he was talking about Modern being a cheaper format to get into than Legacy or Vintage.
I could be wrong, as my memory is notoriously faulty, but I'm almost certain I remember reading him saying something about price (which may or may not have been in the context of the quote), and me thinking "huh, didn't expect to see that on a WOTC article."
He was talking about both the price and skill. There are a great deal more cards and the interactions are not often as obvious in legacy and vintage. While broken draw spells and tutors make deck building easy, they make in game decision making brutal.
Abzan is interactive because it responds to your board and your hand. Also decks that fight abzan have to respond to the board or cards in their hand. Also both players determine play order by what the other deck could have in the following turn. For example do I liliana or does he have splinter twin. Do I tap out to cast a burn spell or does he have feed the clans. Abzan plays around decks and similarly I have to play around your board and hand. It's not like amulet bloom vs burn where you just stare at each other and race to get the kill.
Sylvan library would be banned for the same reason top was. It takes up too much time to play it every turn. Also it is good in combo or control. You would need a brainstorm that is good in aggro decks. In modern that means it would need to be free, that also means it is instantly banned in legacy and restricted in vintage.
I am not saying I want Brainstorm in Modern, i just wish there was something that would help to smooth out the variance and make the format a bit more skill-based.
Like a Brianstorm for 1U? I think that would be fair for Modern since it's basically a slightly more flexible Telling Time.
The most vocal problem that people have with Brainstorm is how its so easy for every deck to play. So making the casting cost 1U is too easy to splash.
I think a UU version of Brainstorm would be better at stopping from being splashed in all the decks but also help Modern out. But I might be wrong.
I just want something to flatten out the deck variance going on in Modern.
What I was saying was that a 1U Brainstorm is basically a slightly better Telling Time. Telling Time doesn't see play, so a slightly better 1U card filter won't be broken by any means for Modern.
Having played both formats, I agree that Legacy is more challenging, simply because there are so many more moving parts and factors to consider. I'm not saying that there aren't qualities of Modern that are more difficult to navigate than Legacy (manabases and sideboarding come to mind) or that it doesn't take a great amount of skill to play Modern well. Both formats are fun and challenging in their own ways, I just think Legacy is a little more nuanced and requires more strategic thinking than Modern does.
Bearscape is bringing the normal legacy players rhetoric
First rule of legacy, brainstorming is more difficult than curing cancer
Second rule of legacy, if it's not a counter spell it's not interaction
I'm obviously exaggerating but it seems that way sometimes
If he had tried to convince you that you actually love legacy (aka the "I don't find the reasons you have as valid, therefore by default you must love legacy and only don't play it cause you can't afford it" argument) it would have been perfect. Personally it's not just the format I dislike about legacy. It's the community as well. Cue someone citing their local game shop players lending decks yada yada yada. My interactions with many legacy players in person, on mgto, and ESPECIALLY on this board have led me to have a decidedly disfavorable view of the community as a whole vs the modern community.
Bearscape is bringing the normal legacy players rhetoric
First rule of legacy, brainstorming is more difficult than curing cancer
Second rule of legacy, if it's not a counter spell it's not interaction
I'm obviously exaggerating but it seems that way sometimes
If he had tried to convince you that you actually love legacy (aka the "I don't find the reasons you have as valid, therefore by default you must love legacy and only don't play it cause you can't afford it" argument) it would have been perfect. Personally it's not just the format I dislike about legacy. It's the community as well. Cue someone citing their local game shop players lending decks yada yada yada. My interactions with many legacy players in person, on mgto, and ESPECIALLY on this board have led me to have a decidedly disfavorable view of the community as a whole vs the modern community.
Standard players look down on Casual players, Modern players look down on Standard players, Legacy players look down on Modern players, Vintage players look down on Legacy players, and Casual players don't give a ****. The world is full of ********s.
I dont understand how that is the case. If both had been naming jace than the other player could have just used his time vault unimpeded, he wouldnt have needed to get rid of the evokers.
He didn't have Time Vault yet.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Slowly breaking.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I really dislike the have to learn a lot of cards argument. generally only a fraction of the cards available in a format will be played. Modern has 9081 cards in the card pool and about 1000 or so see play most likely. so while legacy has 14665 cards available probably only 20%(maybe less) of those are being played. For legacy and modern you can probably learn less then that as you can probably start by learning what are the best decks and learn what cards they run and learn the rest as you go along.
Indeed, Vintage has a realistic card pool of maybe 100-200 cards (the majority of blue decks consist of the exact same 30-40 cards), does that mean that Vintage is trivial to learn?
Not really my point. My point was that the "large amount of cards" argument sucks as most of those cards don't get played and I find that most players can learn what a card does after seeing and reading it once over. After seeing brainstorm most players will know that it lets them draw 3 but then they have to put 2 cards in their hand on top of their library. knowing what the card does is simple making the decisions involving the card is when the difficulty and skill plays in.
Do note the difference between skill on its own and its effect on the outcome: Modern decks are (somewhat) harder to sequence, but after that what's on the top of your deck is much more important in Modern than in Standard. Luck is a very big factor in modern right now.
If everybody is playing non-interactive decks how are Twin and Abzan the two top decks in Modern with the highest meta-share?
First rule of legacy, brainstorming is more difficult than curing cancer
Second rule of legacy, if it's not a counter spell it's not interaction
I'm obviously exaggerating but it seems that way sometimes
Abzan is an interactive deck.
That said, I don't care how many burn spells and counterspells Twin runs, topdecking a Splinter Twin for the win isn't interactive.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
The most vocal problem that people have with Brainstorm is how its so easy for every deck to play. So making the casting cost 1U is too easy to splash.
I think a UU version of Brainstorm would be better at stopping from being splashed in all the decks but also help Modern out. But I might be wrong.
I just want something to flatten out the deck variance going on in Modern.
the problem is you can't just give blue ways to flatten out variance and not give it to the other colors. There is a reason why blue is so much more broken in legacy than any other format, brainstorm. You would need to give the other colors ways for fixing variance as well to keep the playing field level. Vintage does not have this problem because every deck has access to fast mana and great tutors, and brainstorm is restricted. Simply put brainstorm is broken and it makes blue decks far to powerful.
Would something like Sylvan Library be broken in Modern? Its too easily splashable which is a strike against it, and the abundant amount of fetchlands probably put it over the top in the format, but I'm curious to see if everyone else thinks its busted.
Please define interactive?
Imo even Infect is interactive in a good game. But sometimes you just get nut draws and its t1 glistner, t2 might of 2x 1g pumps, mutagenic mutagenic poison for 11.
BEEEES!
Rabble Red
Modern
Burn
Infect
Exactly. It's either all or nothing.
Speaking of that it is kinda funny how Brainstorm and friends are allowed to dominate and are treated like holy cows while the Black tools like Demonic Tutor, Vampiric Tutor and Imperial Seal all sit on the banlist.
Definitely some strong bias there which has lead to the way Legacy looks. A circumstance that definitely and fully deserves my hatred.
At least Wizards learned from their mistakes.
I could be wrong, as my memory is notoriously faulty, but I'm almost certain I remember reading him saying something about price (which may or may not have been in the context of the quote), and me thinking "huh, didn't expect to see that on a WOTC article." It wouldn't surprise me if maybe that part was edited out.
He was talking about both the price and skill. There are a great deal more cards and the interactions are not often as obvious in legacy and vintage. While broken draw spells and tutors make deck building easy, they make in game decision making brutal.
Abzan is interactive because it responds to your board and your hand. Also decks that fight abzan have to respond to the board or cards in their hand. Also both players determine play order by what the other deck could have in the following turn. For example do I liliana or does he have splinter twin. Do I tap out to cast a burn spell or does he have feed the clans. Abzan plays around decks and similarly I have to play around your board and hand. It's not like amulet bloom vs burn where you just stare at each other and race to get the kill.
Sylvan library would be banned for the same reason top was. It takes up too much time to play it every turn. Also it is good in combo or control. You would need a brainstorm that is good in aggro decks. In modern that means it would need to be free, that also means it is instantly banned in legacy and restricted in vintage.
If he had tried to convince you that you actually love legacy (aka the "I don't find the reasons you have as valid, therefore by default you must love legacy and only don't play it cause you can't afford it" argument) it would have been perfect. Personally it's not just the format I dislike about legacy. It's the community as well. Cue someone citing their local game shop players lending decks yada yada yada. My interactions with many legacy players in person, on mgto, and ESPECIALLY on this board have led me to have a decidedly disfavorable view of the community as a whole vs the modern community.
Standard players look down on Casual players, Modern players look down on Standard players, Legacy players look down on Modern players, Vintage players look down on Legacy players, and Casual players don't give a ****. The world is full of ********s.
BRB selling all my Modern decks.
Good. Now join the free cloud post movement in pauper so the format can return to its former glory!
He didn't have Time Vault yet.
Any more of this, and Team Troll will be more than just a name.
I know where you post.
If we free Post can we please free grapeshot? I'm sick of Delver in all formats.
.
Cheeri0sXWU
Reid Duke's Level One
Who's the Beatdown
Alt+0198=Æ
Not really my point. My point was that the "large amount of cards" argument sucks as most of those cards don't get played and I find that most players can learn what a card does after seeing and reading it once over. After seeing brainstorm most players will know that it lets them draw 3 but then they have to put 2 cards in their hand on top of their library. knowing what the card does is simple making the decisions involving the card is when the difficulty and skill plays in.
Oh god, I'd go right back to 8post in a heartbeat.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer