The Dig Through Time ban is such a crazy shoot first action. To those trying to draw parallels to Deathrite Shaman/Bloodbraid Elf, it doesn't work. Both of those were important PLAYED cards in Jund. A more accurate comparison would be if at the time Deathrite Shaman was banned, wizards had simultaneously banned Birds of Paradise
This is a horrible comparison. Birds is a mana dork and nothing more. DRS is not only a mana dork, but also acts as graveyard hate, a life gain buffer, AND a finisher for just one mana. Birds is a dead draw late in a game while DRS in contrast is very relevant in the late game.
The Dig Through Time ban is such a crazy shoot first action. To those trying to draw parallels to Deathrite Shaman/Bloodbraid Elf, it doesn't work. Both of those were important PLAYED cards in Jund. A more accurate comparison would be if at the time Deathrite Shaman was banned, wizards had simultaneously banned Birds of Paradise.
In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Jund deck might use Deathrite Shaman over Birds of Paradise, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck. Birds of Paradise and Deathrite Shaman are banned.
Is someone about to tell me how much worse Birds of Paradise is in Jund than DRS is? That would be true. You know what else is true? That Dig Through Time is a lot worse in a Delver deck than Treasure Cruise.
Dig Through Time may have seen more play with TC gone, but to what extent and whether or not that is even a bad thing...we will never know. There is no actual evidence that Dig Through Time is too good for Modern, but now it is eternally tied to Treasure Cruise.
That's not "entirely" true. You did get DTT played alot on MTGO.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? I'm not sure which part of my post you're responding to. Are you saying DTT had oppressive numbers on MTGO? If that's the case, I was unaware so could you please link a source?
The Dig Through Time ban is such a crazy shoot first action. To those trying to draw parallels to Deathrite Shaman/Bloodbraid Elf, it doesn't work. Both of those were important PLAYED cards in Jund. A more accurate comparison would be if at the time Deathrite Shaman was banned, wizards had simultaneously banned Birds of Paradise
This is a horrible comparison. Birds is a mana dork and nothing more. DRS is not only a mana dork, but also acts as graveyard hate, a life gain buffer, AND a finisher for just one mana. Birds is a dead draw late in a game while DRS in contrast is very relevant in the late game.
This is such a blatant quote cut off. From the VERY POST you quoted:
Is someone about to tell me how much worse Birds of Paradise is in Jund than DRS is? That would be true. You know what else is true? That Dig Through Time is a lot worse in a Delver deck than Treasure Cruise.
Dig Through Time may have seen more play with TC gone, but to what extent and whether or not that is even a bad thing...we will never know. There is no actual evidence that Dig Through Time is too good for Modern, but now it is eternally tied to Treasure Cruise.
The Dig Through Time ban is such a crazy shoot first action. To those trying to draw parallels to Deathrite Shaman/Bloodbraid Elf, it doesn't work. Both of those were important PLAYED cards in Jund. A more accurate comparison would be if at the time Deathrite Shaman was banned, wizards had simultaneously banned Birds of Paradise.
In Modern, these cards are easy replacements for one another—while a Jund deck might use Deathrite Shaman over Birds of Paradise, banning one but not the other would do little to change the deck. Birds of Paradise and Deathrite Shaman are banned.
Is someone about to tell me how much worse Birds of Paradise is in Jund than DRS is? That would be true. You know what else is true? That Dig Through Time is a lot worse in a Delver deck than Treasure Cruise.
Dig Through Time may have seen more play with TC gone, but to what extent and whether or not that is even a bad thing...we will never know. There is no actual evidence that Dig Through Time is too good for Modern, but now it is eternally tied to Treasure Cruise.
That's not "entirely" true. You did get DTT played alot on MTGO.
Could you clarify what you mean by that? I'm not sure which part of my post you're responding to. Are you saying DTT had oppressive numbers on MTGO? If that's the case, I was unaware so could you please link a source?
Not necessarily oppressive numbers ('oppressive is arbitrary, not going to define it here'). But according to mtgtop8.com DTT ranges between 18-20% representation.
I think they were afraid that IF they banned TC, people would use DTT as a replacement and its useage would sore to TC levels.
"I don't understand xyz" "Why did they ban x and not y?" etc...
Its really really easy:
TC: 3 card draw that has been controlled or banned before when it becomes really easy to cast. This is a no-brainer. They want to control the abuse as much as possible. Keep in mind, WotC knows what cards are coming out in the future, as well, so they figure they better ban it now, and let the meta adjust.
DTT: Honestly, how you guys don't see how broken this is is befuddling. 2 card draw for 2 mana that allows you to tutor what 2 cards you draw. Almost more broken than TC. Need your combo piece now? Just DTT. Odds its in those 7 cards are pretty high. Especially with all of the card draw you've had with Serum visions and remand. If you still don't get it, then you are just a spoiled, whinny person.
Pod: Again, this is obvious. One-up yourself every turn (or twice a turn with multiple pods) and get increasingly stronger and stronger without letting your opponent catch-up. Oh, need to sac finks for something better? No problem, finks persists anyway. Almost every power white/green/black card in all future sets would find a spot in pod. Again, better it gets banned now. Who knows that wizards has in the pipeline in terms of creatures that would be pod candidates?
There shouldn't even be a discussion here. People think because Modern has no rotation, that it will never change. Wrong! I stayed away from TC and DTT decks like the plague because I knew those cards were going to get nixed.
Did wizards make a mistake printing them? Maybe. But you can't fault them now for trying to fix it.
For all of you Pod players acting all dramatic: calm your tits. Your deck isn't scrapped. I found it funny seeing everyone selling their pod decks last night at my local MNM. You can move to junk easily, or switch to something else in similar colors.
How old are you people?
TC: Your point is irrelevent since Wizards has stated multiple times that they don't balance for formats other than standard/limited.
DTT: Yes DTT is powerful, but not as strong as TC given the results we've seen. It was banned because of a fear of Delver still being good despite the TC ban, not because of its power.
Pod: The vast majority of power white/green/black cards will never find a spot in pod. As for the rest, see my point on TC.
People can easily fault WotC for printing something that was by all intents and purposes quite broken. Given how quickly they nixed TC alone, this entire situation reaks of R&D being incredibly lazy on balance. TC should have never made it to print in its current state given how quickly it was banned. This also further pushes the notion that WotC does in fact ban based on power level in Modern to keep the format weaker, which is something that a lot of players have a problem with. People don't like having to completely change their decks every year in a format that is intended to be non-rotating because WotC deems their deck "too powerful" at the time.
As a side note, you really should consider curbing your insults and ad hominem.
Wizards does not balance (nor should they) current sets around eternal formats.
Agreed, if anything, TC and Dig might have been a test to see if they could give blue some card draw and let the format sort itself out. On nett I think I would rather have them take a chance and immediately ban the card, then never let them see the light of day in the first place. If you use that logic, it is up to the players to determine if a card is in fact broken and if people want to take a risk on building a deck around that kind of card, they have to accept the risk that it might be simply to degenerate, resulting in a ban.
Personally, I think it is more healthy for the format in the long run, that Wizard keeps attempting the trial and error approach with Modern, since there is really no other way to balance a format with such a large card pool like Modern otherwise.
That is true. However, those "fair" aggressive decks usually run poorly against most combo (non-Pod) decks as well. Thus, it is not just Pod kills those "fair" aggressive decks, but by the Modern META for a while.
I think this is hard to evaluate, given that we haven't really had a format without Pod in it since the beginning of Modern.
However, there is a difference between Aggro vs. Pod and Aggro vs. Combo. Aggro decks facing Pod not only have to deal with their ability to combo off or find the trumpiest of trumps for the situation, they also have to grind through the defenses to begin with. Compare with something like Storm or Ascendancy, where you can often just race them with damage before they can get off their combo. Often a single piece of disruption is enough to buy you a turn against the more typical combo decks, whereas it might actively set you back a turn against Pod. Take for example a simple spell like Destructive Revelry. Against Pod, you might destroy their namesake engine with it the turn they play it and gain 2 damage, but they likely will have already used it for value, perhaps gaining 2 life and another blocker while also searching out a bullet for your team. Against Storm or Ascendancy though, that Revelry will easily buy you a turn or more against Jeskai Ascendancy or Pyromancer Ascension.
There's just a very big difference between a creature deck that trumps all creature decks due to a single Tutor Engine and a combo deck that has to set up several pieces to go off, while generally not having too much in the way of defenses.
Also, have you played Infect against Pod? I haven't, but I'll take other people's word for it if they say it's not a great matchup. Again, it's super easy for Pod to tune just a few cards to beat the matchup. They can't take care of every Tier 1 and 2 deck, no. But they didn't have to. Every time the meta shifted, they could just tweak their deck to keep up with the times. Twin didn't have that option, nor did Storm. Abzan is pretty unplayable if Burn or Tron are popular no matter how much Sideboarding you do. Pod could easily set up to beat almost all those decks without sacrificing much at all. It might still be soft to fast combo, but it takes the place of all the other decks that could occupy that space in the Rock/Paper/Scissors triangle.
I agree with you. If I want, I can adjust Pod to have a better match up against Infect decks. As I said, Pod is kind of easier to be adjust according to the META. Match up to Delver is a good example that has been shown in the past few months.
But the lack of "fair" aggressive decks in Modern is not due to Pod only, which is what I think and I want to express.
Hi sss123,
I get what you are saying. Regarding infect, the match can go different ways depending on individual card choices and variance. In my experience infect gets hosed by Orzhov Pontif and Spellskite - that's my experience, others may have had a different experience.
But regardless that was not really my original point one way or another.
The original point was that pod generates insane advantage which suppresses most other "fair" aggro/creature decks. (not affinity or infect per se, although it still does reasonably well there too)
One siege rhino is sometimes hard for an aggro deck to deal with. Pod gives the ability to turn one Finks into multiple restoration angels and siege rhinos, while gaining a bunch of life, with no loss in card advantage and gaining a huge mana advantage. It can start doing it turn 3 with a reasonable draw, which is in the realm of even stopping affinity or infect.
Something like zoo, which is actually a good aggro deck against alot of the field, is totally brickwalled by 2 siege rhinos and an angel, followed up by shriekmaw, etc.
Think of it this way. The advantage generated by pod is insane when combined with finks. You are effectively drawing a card, but instead of it being a random draw going into your hand, it is an amazing 4-cost creature which goes directly into play. So you effectively tutored AND gained 4 mana. Meaning you can still cast something else with the remaining 3 mana (assuming you spent 1 mana to activate pod). Then you can do it again next turn. If you got a restoration Angel the first time, you also gained 4 life.
So over the course of 3 turns, you spend 3 mana total (3 pod activations) to cast an angel and 2 Siege Rhinos and gain a bunch of life, without costing you any card advantage. Its silly. And since you are still drawing cards during those turns, you get to cast other creatures or removal as well.
A so-called "fair" deck simply cannot keep up.
Isn't this what's supposed to happen? Midrange decks countering aggro and folding to control (tron etc.)?
I really hoped they'd give the meta more time to shake itself out, yes, cruise was everywhere and Pod was making good showing, would they still be in 6 months? People are still playing with shiny new toys, 4 months is really not long enough to let the meta sort itself, New decks that prey on delver may have become popular, decks that threaten pod may have returned, now we'll never know. The Dig ban was also silly, it may have replaced Cruise, the uu cost ay have been too much for it to be used conistently.
Time will tell
I really hoped they'd give the meta more time to shake itself out, yes, cruise was everywhere and Pod was making good showing, would they still be in 6 months? People are still playing with shiny new toys, 4 months is really not long enough to let the meta sort itself, New decks that prey on delver may have become popular, decks that threaten pod may have returned, now we'll never know. The Dig ban was also silly, it may have replaced Cruise, the uu cost ay have been too much for it to be used conistently.
Time will tell
I tend to think that yes, in another 6 months or more, the meta would still be infested with Treasure Cruise and Pod decks. There would be little incentive to play something else.
And while I do tend to wish that they had left Dig Through Time alone for a little while, it would be hard to picture that card not taking over in much the same way that Treasure Cruise did.
Dig Through Time is very close to Treasure Cruise in terms of power and advantage. It easily replaces the latter in the Delver decks, with very little changes to the deck's functionality or power level. If anything, it might get objectively better, since now all your sideboard cards are that much easier to find and you don't have to compete with anyone else running Cruise. On top of that, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, and various other blue Cryptic Control decks would very likely rise to power and take up any remaining space for the format to "develop". To me, it's pretty obvious that Dig would have just been the next Cruise, and I don't see that trend having gone away by itself. If WOTC wanted to let Blue have another year in the sun, they could have left Dig alone for now, but the would have looked pretty silly when they ban it next year instead. I think the move they made was completely logical, if not a bit disappointing. I would have been happy to play Dig Through Time decks for the next year, since I do think they would have been more interesting and varied than the current Delver trend. But then again, the Delver trend would probably still have been the Cover Page anyway.
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I really hoped they'd give the meta more time to shake itself out, yes, cruise was everywhere and Pod was making good showing, would they still be in 6 months? People are still playing with shiny new toys, 4 months is really not long enough to let the meta sort itself, New decks that prey on delver may have become popular, decks that threaten pod may have returned, now we'll never know. The Dig ban was also silly, it may have replaced Cruise, the uu cost ay have been too much for it to be used conistently.
Time will tell
I tend to think that yes, in another 6 months or more, the meta would still be infested with Treasure Cruise and Pod decks. There would be little incentive to play something else.
And while I do tend to wish that they had left Dig Through Time alone for a little while, it would be hard to picture that card not taking over in much the same way that Treasure Cruise did.
Dig Through Time is very close to Treasure Cruise in terms of power and advantage. It easily replaces the latter in the Delver decks, with very little changes to the deck's functionality or power level. If anything, it might get objectively better, since now all your sideboard cards are that much easier to find and you don't have to compete with anyone else running Cruise. On top of that, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, and various other blue Cryptic Control decks would very likely rise to power and take up any remaining space for the format to "develop". To me, it's pretty obvious that Dig would have just been the next Cruise, and I don't see that trend having gone away by itself. If WOTC wanted to let Blue have another year in the sun, they could have left Dig alone for now, but the would have looked pretty silly when they ban it next year instead. I think the move they made was completely logical, if not a bit disappointing. I would have been happy to play Dig Through Time decks for the next year, since I do think they would have been more interesting and varied than the current Delver trend. But then again, the Delver trend would probably still have been the Cover Page anyway.
Agreed that maybe the ban of Dig was a little pre-emptive, but perhaps that was to reset the meta to pre-Kahns that we could predict and to see the effect removing Pod would have on the format, without the complications of leaving another powerhouse (in Dig) in the format that might obfuscate the results. I actually believe that Dig stands a chance of being unbanned depending on how the new meta plays out, whereas Treasure Cruise probably is going to be on the banlist for quite sometime, possibly indefinitely.
I'm getting the impression from the state of Modern as of now is that we're 3-4 high profile bannings away from being finished as a format. I understand Wotc's rational for the bans, but I think they went a little too far especially in regards to banning Dig and the lack of meaningful unbans. People are starting to lose confidence in investing in the format already and having too many cards getting banned (especially 2 from a large fall set that just came out) is not good from a business perspective and gives the format a 'Ban everything that's good' kind of reputation.
I'm getting the impression from the state of Modern as of now is that we're 3-4 high profile bannings away from being finished as a format. I understand Wotc's rational for the bans, but I think they went a little too far especially in regards to banning Dig and the lack of meaningful unbans. People are starting to lose confidence in investing in the format already and having too many cards getting banned (especially 2 from a large fall set that just came out) is not good from a business perspective and gives the format a 'Ban everything that's good' kind of reputation.
I think the impression you're getting is rooted in a lot of noise on these threads, but doesn't actually reflect the state of Modern at all. Here are some truths I would consider in light of your post:
1) People are still going to play Modern. It's not going away as a format. GP Vegas will probably be the biggest GP of all time, and will only further the growth of Modern.
2) Wizards has stated from the beginning that they will ban cards in this format as they feel necessary, until they get the recipe correct. If things get stale, they will consider bans or unbans to shake them up again. In this case, it was pretty obvious who the offenders were.
3) We are far from being finished as a format. More banning will likely happen, and eventually I expect more unbannings to take place too, but it's a slow process. People that think BBE or AV or Sword of the Meek are totally fine likely haven't tested those cards or really though through what they would do to the format. Perhaps they will someday come off the list, but for now everything on there makes perfect sense.
4) "Ban everything good" vs. "Ban everything that's too good" is a thin subjective line, yes. But it's a lot easier for WOTC to make an objectively neutral decision than a bunch of players who have a stake in the cards and an emotional attachment to certain archetypes. Their decision may not be ideal for some folks, but it was certainly not influenced by emotions or financial investment. And when something is 15% of the meta for a significant duration of time, it's pretty obvious that it's a trigger point for being "too good".
I've stayed away from Birthing Pod for years because I saw this coming, and I am more than happy to put down my Treasure Cruises (and unused Digs) for the good of the format, despite having a blast with RUG Delver. Similarly, I was more than accepting of losing Deathrite Shaman in Jund, and basically needing to jump ship for a season until Junk lists started seeing moderate success again. It's not hard to make safe investments in this format, you just need to be aware of changes in the meta and diversify your options.
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I wonder if the issue with DTT was the fact it was helping already good decks (Twin, Scapeshift) or if it was just broken no matter what according to WotC.
If the DTT ban is an indication of the efficiency limit of blue draw spells in the format, would a "draw 2" instant for *almost-the-same-cost-but-not-entirely-because-it-shouldn't-help-already-powerful-decks* (6U with delve or U ) be ok? Or are we to consider whatwehave to be the limit?
I really really hope that draw isn't the limit, because I was thrilled to see blue getting actual draw to compete with all the card advantage and virtual card advantage other colors have. I do kinda feel that wizards is trying to see if they can even out the meta completely though, which pod really could never fit in. I don't think they really want a truly cyclical meta as many players here do. I think the best we can hope for is they achieve stable shares and THEN attempt to EQUALLY raise the power level of archetypes.
I wonder if the issue with DTT was the fact it was helping already good decks (Twin, Scapeshift) or if it was just broken no matter what according to WotC.
If the DTT ban is an indication of the efficiency limit of blue draw spells in the format, would a "draw 2" instant for *almost-the-same-cost-but-not-entirely-because-it-shouldn't-help-already-powerful-decks* (6U with delve or U ) be ok? Or are we to consider whatwehave to be the limit?
If any new cards released from Standard that can help "already powerful decks" deserve a ban, why not just leave Modern as an isolated format without any influences from new sets? Because if this is what they want, modern does not need any new cards to change the META.
There are roughly two months until the next banned list announcement. Wizards was so afraid of DTT replacing TC at or near the same power level for Delver decks that they didn't even give it a two month probationary period.
How many successful Delver lists were playing DTT instead of TC? A very small percent, because in Modern UR(x) Delver, DTT is good...but not as good as TC. Even in Legacy, which can use DTT together with cards like Brainstorm to flush away unneeded cards to the bottom of your library, only TC was banned.
Other decks that were playing DTT weren't breaking anything; they just added some consistency to their existing game plans. Scapeshift is a very good deck, but far from broken. Twin hasn't been on the map much at all, even with the inclusion of such a powerful card. The JA decks playing DTT were the less explosive ones. Notice that none of those deck types were mentioned in the announcement; only Delver.
I firmly believe that DTT would have straight replaced TC in that deck. The important thing is that not only was the card not present in the deck it was banned for being too good in (serious lack of data points), even if it would have been swapped, the deck would have suffered a bit (though it would likely have stayed tier one). That said, let's look at the differences between TC and DTT in the Delver deck.
With both cards, Delver can play the game plan with Swiftspears and Pyromancers to cycle and burn as fast as possible, to fill graveyards and in doing so fuel delve. TC can delve one deeper, making it cost one mana less, which is also easier on the mana base than DTT. That might seem trivial, but goes a long way to undermine how quickly the deck can kill you (especially UR Delver).
DTT is an instant, but should be cast before or during combat to maximize the effectiveness of Swiftspears. With so few lands (several of which are fetches that can feed the next delve spell) and so many play sets, three random cards will typically be better than the two best out of the top seven of a library. This also makes TC fare better overall against discard (though DTT is potent here as well, just less so).
It's very easy to simply lump DTT with TC and say "those cards are overpowered." TC was splashed into decks with no other blue in them, pushed high decks higher (from tier two to some of the best in the format), and forced out attrition-based strategies. Who wants anything like that? DTT got killed for guilt by association. It's similar, but worse enough in just enough areas that it should have had a chance.
I'm only a Modern player; I don't care what's popular or not in Standard, Legacy, Vintage, or Commander. I also don't play Pod or delve decks, so this ban/unban set didn't hit me hard at all. But I feel like DTT got cheated.
I think Wizards didn't want to make the mistake again of banning the wrong card, or not enough of them. Delver had been answered by Pod and even Junk thanks to Siege Rhino, so I would have been fine seeing what it was capable of without its own TC or Pod in the environment to push out other answers.
tl;dr:
1. Dig Through Time was banned for being too scary to replace a better card in a strong deck, despite only intuition/no supporting data and only two months until the next round of bans/unbans.
2. DTT has broken nothing it's been in, caused blue splashes solely for its inclusion, or catapulted any decks into tier one status that wasn't there previously (Scapeshift, Twin, JA), unlike TC.
3. The fact that DTT was left legal in Legacy and Vintage, environments more likely to abuse the filtering capabilities of DTT with cards like Brainstorm, while TC was also banned there is a bit hypocritical.
There are roughly two months until the next banned list announcement. Wizards was so afraid of DTT replacing TC at or near the same power level for Delver decks that they didn't even give it a two month probationary period.
How many successful Delver lists were playing DTT instead of TC? A very small percent, because in Modern UR(x) Delver, DTT is good...but not as good as TC. Even in Legacy, which can use DTT together with cards like Brainstorm to flush away unneeded cards to the bottom of your library, only TC was banned.
Other decks that were playing DTT weren't breaking anything; they just added some consistency to their existing game plans. Scapeshift is a very good deck, but far from broken. Twin hasn't been on the map much at all, even with the inclusion of such a powerful card. The JA decks playing DTT were the less explosive ones. Notice that none of those deck types were mentioned in the announcement; only Delver.
I firmly believe that DTT would have straight replaced TC in that deck. The important thing is that not only was the card not present in the deck it was banned for being too good in (serious lack of data points), even if it would have been swapped, the deck would have suffered a bit (though it would likely have stayed tier one). That said, let's look at the differences between TC and DTT in the Delver deck.
With both cards, Delver can play the game plan with Swiftspears and Pyromancers to cycle and burn as fast as possible, to fill graveyards and in doing so fuel delve. TC can delve one deeper, making it cost one mana less, which is also easier on the mana base than DTT. That might seem trivial, but goes a long way to undermine how quickly the deck can kill you (especially UR Delver).
DTT is an instant, but should be cast before or during combat to maximize the effectiveness of Swiftspears. With so few lands (several of which are fetches that can feed the next delve spell) and so many play sets, three random cards will typically be better than the two best out of the top seven of a library. This also makes TC fare better overall against discard (though DTT is potent here as well, just less so).
It's very easy to simply lump DTT with TC and say "those cards are overpowered." TC was splashed into decks with no other blue in them, pushed high decks higher (from tier two to some of the best in the format), and forced out attrition-based strategies. Who wants anything like that? DTT got killed for guilt by association. It's similar, but worse enough in just enough areas that it should have had a chance.
I'm only a Modern player; I don't care what's popular or not in Standard, Legacy, Vintage, or Commander. I also don't play Pod or delve decks, so this ban/unban set didn't hit me hard at all. But I feel like DTT got cheated.
I think Wizards didn't want to make the mistake again of banning the wrong card, or not enough of them. Delver had been answered by Pod and even Junk thanks to Siege Rhino, so I would have been fine seeing what it was capable of without its own TC or Pod in the environment to push out other answers.
tl;dr:
1. Dig Through Time was banned for being too scary to replace a better card in a strong deck, despite only intuition/no supporting data and only two months until the next round of bans/unbans.
2. DTT has broken nothing it's been in, caused blue splashes solely for its inclusion, or catapulted any decks into tier one status that wasn't there previously (Scapeshift, Twin, JA), unlike TC.
3. The fact that DTT was left legal in Legacy and Vintage, environments more likely to abuse the filtering capabilities of DTT with cards like Brainstorm, while TC was also banned there is a bit hypocritical.
DTT did get cheated, it was hammered because Wizards wanted to guarantee a fresh Pro Tour, not because they were afraid of it being oppressive.
After a day of contemplation, I realize that the Pod ban is not the best decision they could have made, but it was the second best. I think they should have unbanned cards to attempt to balance the format, but by banning TC, BP, and DTT, they achieved a "fresh" meta. I don't think this is a good practice moving forward, and may hurt the format in the long run, but I think it will be interesting to see how the next few months work out. Long term, I think the two block paradigm along with Modern Masters will allow for more powerful cards to enter the format (hopefully non-creatures!), and hopefully we can one day get to a place where Birthing Pod can join us again. If not, I want to see a Pod without the Phyrexian mana, because I think that it could be balanced (lose the ability to play it turn 2, significantly slower overall, etc.).
Just as i was thinking "ohey, i will not have to invest my first two months of salary to buy into legacy, cuz y know Modern is starting to get the fun stuff too!". I'm discouraged by how bannings gutted every reletively cheap deck that would have got me playing paper magic again (eggs/Storm/Delver). Guess i'll wait my late 20s to play this awesome game again. LEGACY.
Isn't the primary reason for the bans the upcoming Modern Pro Tour? This has happened for the past few years. Each year, before the one and only Modern PT, they shake up the format by banning cards from the best/most played decks, to give the Pros a new format to play in, one that hasn't yet been 'solved.' When Wizards announced there would be no Modern PT's in 2015, the community's voice was heard, and so Wizards put one back in. If we would expect Modern to be a truly eternal format, in the same vein of Legacy, it can no longer be a Pro Tour format. Everyone talking too much about X's and O's and whether card X is more powerful than card Y. The real reason for the bans is just as much creating a new metagame for the Pros as it is power level or deck saturation.
Let's be honest, if there were no bans in Modern, the upcoming Modern PT would have been rather boring and expected (Pod, Delver, Storm, Scapeshift), there'd be nothing new for the Pros to build. Now, I think it's at much more exciting place. Personally I like the idea of Modern starting where Legacy ends -- popular, strong cards in Legacy be banned in Modern, and those that aren't played in Legacy be legal in Modern (barring those turn 2 win cards that are banned because Modern lacks Force of Will). Pod fits here, so does Bloodbraid Elf, so does Ancestral Visions. Delver gets a pass because it's so much worse without Brainstorm and Ponder.
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—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
DTT did get cheated, it was hammered because Wizards wanted to guarantee a fresh Pro Tour, not because they were afraid of it being oppressive.
Yeah, and this makes me wonder if all the desire for a Modern Pro Tour was actually a good thing for the format, if it's causing them to make bans like this. If the Pro Tour wasn't coming up, I wonder if anything other than Treasure Cruise would receive the ban.
Long term, I think the two block paradigm along with Modern Masters will allow for more powerful cards to enter the format (hopefully non-creatures!), and hopefully we can one day get to a place where Birthing Pod can join us again. If not, I want to see a Pod without the Phyrexian mana, because I think that it could be balanced (lose the ability to play it turn 2, significantly slower overall, etc.).
Modern Masters doesn't allow new cards to enter the format. Maybe they'll change that, but as is it's all reprints.
Let's be honest, if there were no bans in Modern, the upcoming Modern PT would have been rather boring and expected (Pod, Delver, Storm, Scapeshift), there'd be nothing new for the Pros to build. Now, I think it's at much more exciting place.
No, if there had no change at all it would have been boring and expected. They could have easily done unbans to shake things up and make there be new stuff for Pros to build.
Personally I like the idea of Modern starting where Legacy ends -- popular, strong cards in Legacy be banned in Modern, and those that aren't played in Legacy be legal in Modern (barring those turn 2 win cards that are banned because Modern lacks Force of Will). Pod fits here, so does Bloodbraid Elf, so does Ancestral Visions. Delver gets a pass because it's so much worse without Brainstorm and Ponder.
Except Birthing Pod sees basically no play in Legacy, Bloodbraid Elf has been a nonentity for a while, and if Delver gets a pass because it's much worse without Brainstorm and Ponder, then Ancestral Vision gets a pass because it's much worse without Shardless Agent.
Oh, and under this proposed paradigm (ban anything popular/strong in Legacy), we also have to ban the fetchlands, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Cavern of Souls, Vendilion Clique, and Thoughtseize.
Yeah, and this makes me wonder if all the desire for a Modern Pro Tour was actually a good thing for the format, if it's causing them to make bans like this. If the Pro Tour wasn't coming up, I wonder if anything other than Treasure Cruise would receive the ban.
So what you're saying is, "We have destroyed ourselves. Skynet tracked our signal. We led them straight to us." (hopefully someone gets that reference)
Modern Masters doesn't allow new cards to enter the format. Maybe they'll change that, but as is it's all reprints.
Yeah, I meant hopefully they will be able to introduce cards through Modern Masters in the future, like how Conspiracy and Commander gives Legacy cards.
So LGS does this tuesday night modern every week. What normally ends up being 20-30 players and 4+ rounds of magic ended up being 7 players and a ghost (bye) so we can even get a 3 round swiss going today... if this is a sign to come, its time to jump ship to legacy.
Even in Legacy, which can use DTT together with cards like Brainstorm to flush away unneeded cards to the bottom of your library, only TC was banned.
3. The fact that DTT was left legal in Legacy and Vintage, environments more likely to abuse the filtering capabilities of DTT with cards like Brainstorm, while TC was also banned there is a bit hypocritical.
This is completely backwards. TC gets better with BS much more than DTT gets better with BS. BS complements TC's raw CA but lack of filtering. The fact that DTT already filters means that it doesn't need BS to do that job. There's also plenty of shuffle effects in a BS deck to make BS good by itself. DTT doesn't especially make BS better, and BS doesn't especially make DTT better - not abusive. BS *does* make TC especially better - abusive.
No, if there had no change at all it would have been boring and expected. They could have easily done unbans to shake things up and make there be new stuff for Pros to build.
The problem here is one of short vs long term. They can't unban cards every single time there's a Modern PT and they feel the need to shake things up in order to make the pros happy which means they have to ban things too. The format would have been perfect to bring back things like Ancestral Visions and Bloodbraid Elf but they went the opposite route. Realistically this doesn't inspire confidence in the future, because we're looking at bans before each PT most likely which continues the previous pattern where they got rid of DRS and BBE in years past.
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This is a horrible comparison. Birds is a mana dork and nothing more. DRS is not only a mana dork, but also acts as graveyard hate, a life gain buffer, AND a finisher for just one mana. Birds is a dead draw late in a game while DRS in contrast is very relevant in the late game.
Not necessarily oppressive numbers ('oppressive is arbitrary, not going to define it here'). But according to mtgtop8.com DTT ranges between 18-20% representation.
I think they were afraid that IF they banned TC, people would use DTT as a replacement and its useage would sore to TC levels.
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Personally, I think it is more healthy for the format in the long run, that Wizard keeps attempting the trial and error approach with Modern, since there is really no other way to balance a format with such a large card pool like Modern otherwise.
Isn't this what's supposed to happen? Midrange decks countering aggro and folding to control (tron etc.)?
https://www.change.org/p/wizards-of-the-coast-unban-birthing-pod?just_created=true
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Time will tell
I tend to think that yes, in another 6 months or more, the meta would still be infested with Treasure Cruise and Pod decks. There would be little incentive to play something else.
And while I do tend to wish that they had left Dig Through Time alone for a little while, it would be hard to picture that card not taking over in much the same way that Treasure Cruise did.
Dig Through Time is very close to Treasure Cruise in terms of power and advantage. It easily replaces the latter in the Delver decks, with very little changes to the deck's functionality or power level. If anything, it might get objectively better, since now all your sideboard cards are that much easier to find and you don't have to compete with anyone else running Cruise. On top of that, Splinter Twin, Scapeshift, and various other blue Cryptic Control decks would very likely rise to power and take up any remaining space for the format to "develop". To me, it's pretty obvious that Dig would have just been the next Cruise, and I don't see that trend having gone away by itself. If WOTC wanted to let Blue have another year in the sun, they could have left Dig alone for now, but the would have looked pretty silly when they ban it next year instead. I think the move they made was completely logical, if not a bit disappointing. I would have been happy to play Dig Through Time decks for the next year, since I do think they would have been more interesting and varied than the current Delver trend. But then again, the Delver trend would probably still have been the Cover Page anyway.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Agreed that maybe the ban of Dig was a little pre-emptive, but perhaps that was to reset the meta to pre-Kahns that we could predict and to see the effect removing Pod would have on the format, without the complications of leaving another powerhouse (in Dig) in the format that might obfuscate the results. I actually believe that Dig stands a chance of being unbanned depending on how the new meta plays out, whereas Treasure Cruise probably is going to be on the banlist for quite sometime, possibly indefinitely.
I think the impression you're getting is rooted in a lot of noise on these threads, but doesn't actually reflect the state of Modern at all. Here are some truths I would consider in light of your post:
1) People are still going to play Modern. It's not going away as a format. GP Vegas will probably be the biggest GP of all time, and will only further the growth of Modern.
2) Wizards has stated from the beginning that they will ban cards in this format as they feel necessary, until they get the recipe correct. If things get stale, they will consider bans or unbans to shake them up again. In this case, it was pretty obvious who the offenders were.
3) We are far from being finished as a format. More banning will likely happen, and eventually I expect more unbannings to take place too, but it's a slow process. People that think BBE or AV or Sword of the Meek are totally fine likely haven't tested those cards or really though through what they would do to the format. Perhaps they will someday come off the list, but for now everything on there makes perfect sense.
4) "Ban everything good" vs. "Ban everything that's too good" is a thin subjective line, yes. But it's a lot easier for WOTC to make an objectively neutral decision than a bunch of players who have a stake in the cards and an emotional attachment to certain archetypes. Their decision may not be ideal for some folks, but it was certainly not influenced by emotions or financial investment. And when something is 15% of the meta for a significant duration of time, it's pretty obvious that it's a trigger point for being "too good".
I've stayed away from Birthing Pod for years because I saw this coming, and I am more than happy to put down my Treasure Cruises (and unused Digs) for the good of the format, despite having a blast with RUG Delver. Similarly, I was more than accepting of losing Deathrite Shaman in Jund, and basically needing to jump ship for a season until Junk lists started seeing moderate success again. It's not hard to make safe investments in this format, you just need to be aware of changes in the meta and diversify your options.
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I really really hope that draw isn't the limit, because I was thrilled to see blue getting actual draw to compete with all the card advantage and virtual card advantage other colors have. I do kinda feel that wizards is trying to see if they can even out the meta completely though, which pod really could never fit in. I don't think they really want a truly cyclical meta as many players here do. I think the best we can hope for is they achieve stable shares and THEN attempt to EQUALLY raise the power level of archetypes.
If any new cards released from Standard that can help "already powerful decks" deserve a ban, why not just leave Modern as an isolated format without any influences from new sets? Because if this is what they want, modern does not need any new cards to change the META.
Anything, but nothing at the moment...
Modern:
WUBRGAmulet Titan, WUBRGHuman
WUBRAd Nauseam, WBRGDeath Shadow, UBRGScapeshift, UBRGDredge
WURJeskai Nahiri, WURCheeri0s, WBGCounter Company, WRGBurn, UBRMadcap Moon, BRGJund Midrange
UBTurn,BRGriselbrand Reanimator, WGKnight Company, RGRG Tron, RGRG Ponza, XAffinity, XEldrazi Tron
How many successful Delver lists were playing DTT instead of TC? A very small percent, because in Modern UR(x) Delver, DTT is good...but not as good as TC. Even in Legacy, which can use DTT together with cards like Brainstorm to flush away unneeded cards to the bottom of your library, only TC was banned.
Other decks that were playing DTT weren't breaking anything; they just added some consistency to their existing game plans. Scapeshift is a very good deck, but far from broken. Twin hasn't been on the map much at all, even with the inclusion of such a powerful card. The JA decks playing DTT were the less explosive ones. Notice that none of those deck types were mentioned in the announcement; only Delver.
I firmly believe that DTT would have straight replaced TC in that deck. The important thing is that not only was the card not present in the deck it was banned for being too good in (serious lack of data points), even if it would have been swapped, the deck would have suffered a bit (though it would likely have stayed tier one). That said, let's look at the differences between TC and DTT in the Delver deck.
With both cards, Delver can play the game plan with Swiftspears and Pyromancers to cycle and burn as fast as possible, to fill graveyards and in doing so fuel delve. TC can delve one deeper, making it cost one mana less, which is also easier on the mana base than DTT. That might seem trivial, but goes a long way to undermine how quickly the deck can kill you (especially UR Delver).
DTT is an instant, but should be cast before or during combat to maximize the effectiveness of Swiftspears. With so few lands (several of which are fetches that can feed the next delve spell) and so many play sets, three random cards will typically be better than the two best out of the top seven of a library. This also makes TC fare better overall against discard (though DTT is potent here as well, just less so).
It's very easy to simply lump DTT with TC and say "those cards are overpowered." TC was splashed into decks with no other blue in them, pushed high decks higher (from tier two to some of the best in the format), and forced out attrition-based strategies. Who wants anything like that? DTT got killed for guilt by association. It's similar, but worse enough in just enough areas that it should have had a chance.
I'm only a Modern player; I don't care what's popular or not in Standard, Legacy, Vintage, or Commander. I also don't play Pod or delve decks, so this ban/unban set didn't hit me hard at all. But I feel like DTT got cheated.
I think Wizards didn't want to make the mistake again of banning the wrong card, or not enough of them. Delver had been answered by Pod and even Junk thanks to Siege Rhino, so I would have been fine seeing what it was capable of without its own TC or Pod in the environment to push out other answers.
tl;dr:
1. Dig Through Time was banned for being too scary to replace a better card in a strong deck, despite only intuition/no supporting data and only two months until the next round of bans/unbans.
2. DTT has broken nothing it's been in, caused blue splashes solely for its inclusion, or catapulted any decks into tier one status that wasn't there previously (Scapeshift, Twin, JA), unlike TC.
3. The fact that DTT was left legal in Legacy and Vintage, environments more likely to abuse the filtering capabilities of DTT with cards like Brainstorm, while TC was also banned there is a bit hypocritical.
After a day of contemplation, I realize that the Pod ban is not the best decision they could have made, but it was the second best. I think they should have unbanned cards to attempt to balance the format, but by banning TC, BP, and DTT, they achieved a "fresh" meta. I don't think this is a good practice moving forward, and may hurt the format in the long run, but I think it will be interesting to see how the next few months work out. Long term, I think the two block paradigm along with Modern Masters will allow for more powerful cards to enter the format (hopefully non-creatures!), and hopefully we can one day get to a place where Birthing Pod can join us again. If not, I want to see a Pod without the Phyrexian mana, because I think that it could be balanced (lose the ability to play it turn 2, significantly slower overall, etc.).
Storm is cheap and still playable though?
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Let's be honest, if there were no bans in Modern, the upcoming Modern PT would have been rather boring and expected (Pod, Delver, Storm, Scapeshift), there'd be nothing new for the Pros to build. Now, I think it's at much more exciting place. Personally I like the idea of Modern starting where Legacy ends -- popular, strong cards in Legacy be banned in Modern, and those that aren't played in Legacy be legal in Modern (barring those turn 2 win cards that are banned because Modern lacks Force of Will). Pod fits here, so does Bloodbraid Elf, so does Ancestral Visions. Delver gets a pass because it's so much worse without Brainstorm and Ponder.
—Lim-Dûl, the Necromancer
Modern Masters doesn't allow new cards to enter the format. Maybe they'll change that, but as is it's all reprints.
Except Birthing Pod sees basically no play in Legacy, Bloodbraid Elf has been a nonentity for a while, and if Delver gets a pass because it's much worse without Brainstorm and Ponder, then Ancestral Vision gets a pass because it's much worse without Shardless Agent.
Oh, and under this proposed paradigm (ban anything popular/strong in Legacy), we also have to ban the fetchlands, Tarmogoyf, Dark Confidant, Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Cavern of Souls, Vendilion Clique, and Thoughtseize.
This is completely backwards. TC gets better with BS much more than DTT gets better with BS. BS complements TC's raw CA but lack of filtering. The fact that DTT already filters means that it doesn't need BS to do that job. There's also plenty of shuffle effects in a BS deck to make BS good by itself. DTT doesn't especially make BS better, and BS doesn't especially make DTT better - not abusive. BS *does* make TC especially better - abusive.
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The problem here is one of short vs long term. They can't unban cards every single time there's a Modern PT and they feel the need to shake things up in order to make the pros happy which means they have to ban things too. The format would have been perfect to bring back things like Ancestral Visions and Bloodbraid Elf but they went the opposite route. Realistically this doesn't inspire confidence in the future, because we're looking at bans before each PT most likely which continues the previous pattern where they got rid of DRS and BBE in years past.