Also, the Fetches contribute significantly to Burn's ability to kill opponents without needing to rely on topdecked burn spells for several turns in a row. Banning the fetches might not kill Burn, but it would probably bump it down to a Teir 2 deck, which is a net loss for format diversity.
I dislike the idea of keeping cards banned and deny a reasonable tier 1 deck to exist solely for the sake of tier 2 decks, unless the card the card puts one single deck over the top of other tier 1 decks (say, artifact lands) or everyone and his mom starts using it (Skullclamp).
As for banning fetchlands, the losses are dismal compared to the benefits:
As mentioned above, fair decks wouldn't have to start on 14 life to keep with one another, so the position of Burn is undermined. Also, Wild Nacatl and Tribal Flames lose consistency and Steppe Lynx becomes a bad Loam Lion. I can't speak for everyone, but I find playing against Burn and Small Zoo quite similar and would love less of them.
Tarmogoyf gets -1/-1.
Delve spells costs 1 or 2 more to cast. Weakens Become Immense, makes Dig Through Time even safer to unban (I would still prefer Ancestral Visions over Treasure Cruise).
Blood Moon and nonbasic hate actually get better, because greedy decks can no longer put a basic or two in their decks and call it a day.
BGx either has to rely more on Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch or pay more attention to its mana symbols. It becomes safer to pring good Orzhov or red Midrange cards without having to hear the "it makes Abzan or Jund too good" argument.
Temur or Grixis Twin aren't as easy, so Twin has to become more specialized and that leaves room for more non Twin blue decks.
I have found Leonin Arbiter inconsistent at hosing fetchlands, especially on the draw. Most of the time the use I have seen is to couple it with Path to Exile.
The biggest question would be whether linear decks like Infect or Bogles become better because now the sideboard cards are more difficult to splash. I don't know but I would be eager to try that Modern format. (I own two playsets of fetchlands, one from Zendikar, and wouldn't bother to see their prices plummet in the slightest).
Sadly, it won't happen. The writing was on the wall the moment they reprinted the fetchlands in Khans.
I dislike the idea of keeping cards banned and deny a reasonable tier 1 deck to exist solely for the sake of tier 2 decks, unless the card the card puts one single deck over the top of other tier 1 decks (say, artifact lands) or everyone and his mom starts using it (Skullclamp).
As for banning fetchlands, the losses are dismal compared to the benefits:
As mentioned above, fair decks wouldn't have to start on 14 life to keep with one another, so the position of Burn is undermined. Also, Wild Nacatl and Tribal Flames lose consistency and Steppe Lynx becomes a bad Loam Lion. I can't speak for everyone, but I find playing against Burn and Small Zoo quite similar and would love less of them.
Tarmogoyf gets -1/-1.
Delve spells costs 1 or 2 more to cast. Weakens Become Immense, makes Dig Through Time even safer to unban (I would still prefer Ancestral Visions over Treasure Cruise).
Blood Moon and nonbasic hate actually get better, because greedy decks can no longer put a basic or two in their decks and call it a day.
BGx either has to rely more on Birds of Paradise and Noble Hierarch or pay more attention to its mana symbols. It becomes safer to pring good Orzhov or red Midrange cards without having to hear the "it makes Abzan or Jund too good" argument.
Temur or Grixis Twin aren't as easy, so Twin has to become more specialized and that leaves room for more non Twin blue decks.
I have find Leonin Arbiter inconsistent at hosing fetchlands, especially on the draw. Most of the time the use I have seen is to couple it with Path to Exile.
The biggest question would be whether linear decks like Infect or Bogles become better because now the sideboard cards are more difficult to splash. I don't know but I would be eager to try that Modern format. (I own two playsets of fetchlands, one from Zendikar, and wouldn't bother to see their prices plummet in the slightest).
What even are the benefits of banning fetchlands? Banning them would kill Zoo, Hatebears, Death and Taxes, Blue Moon, and several 3-color decks. What would fetchlands do that offsets killing a bunch of decks?
What even are the benefits of banning fetchlands? Banning them would kill Zoo, Hatebears, Death and Taxes, Blue Moon, and several 3-color decks. What would fetchlands do that offsets killing a bunch of decks?
The benefit is that when all other banlist topics are exhausted we can always turn to fetchlands for some giggles.
The only legitimate reason for banning fetchlands is that it takes up too much time at events. But given that Wizards just reprinted them and is probably about to reprint another set during BFZ, it seems like this isn't a concern on their end, so it shouldn't be for us.
People don't have to buy them? That's like 99% of the reasons I see for banning them, which is the same stupid argument as banning Tarmogoyf.
Except half of them aren't even that expensive and the other half is probably getting reprinted in Battle for Zendikar, which will make them crash in price too, so even that stupid argument doesn't make sense.
People don't have to buy them? That's like 99% of the reasons I see for banning them, which is the same stupid argument as banning Tarmogoyf.
Except half of them aren't even that expensive and the other half is probably getting reprinted in Battle for Zendikar, which will make them crash in price too, so even that stupid argument doesn't make sense.
People don't have to buy them? That's like 99% of the reasons I see for banning them, which is the same stupid argument as banning Tarmogoyf.
Except half of them aren't even that expensive and the other half is probably getting reprinted in Battle for Zendikar, which will make them crash in price too, so even that stupid argument doesn't make sense.
Hence why it's stupid.
I can see some reasons besides price, which is a stupid argument with the recent printing.
* Getting rid of them will reduce the safety and stability of 'greedy' mana bases, pushing a lot of 3 color decks out of the format, and strengthen nonbasic hate like Blood Moon, it would thusly strengthen a lot of mono-color or two-color decks, like merfolk and mono-green stompy, in comparison, at least theoretically
* Remaining 3 color decks would have to rely more on shocklands (currently they can avoid full playsets of such if they want and their cards allow for it) making them potentially weaker to burn, or have a less reliable mana base, penalizing them effectively for being greedy in colors
* Rounds would take less time due to likely reduced shuffling
* Tarmogoyf will often be smaller, and delve spells will take longer, and similar graveyard stuff will be weakened
* Landfall type stuff will be forced to rely on green 'play extra lands' spells or slower types of fetch effects like Evolving Wilds instead of super cheap and efficient fetches, allowing them to print stronger landfall type stuff
* The fetch-shock synergy is gone so they can print more duals with basic land types for other reasons than just the shocklands
* Because mana bases are weaker, especially at 3 color, they can somewhat increase the power of multicolor cards, since Modern players are now effectively paying 'more' for them, especially for 3+ color cards
* Newbies entering the format when there aren't fetches or shocks in Standard will have less of a mana base upgrade needed to transition from Standard
* Less opportunities for sneaky cheaters to do sneaky cheater stuff when messing with their libraries while fetching (this is a bad reason)
* Now that fetches _are_ cheaper, the players who have an 'investment' in them won't be facing as big a financial hit, sorta, if they were banned now, rather than banned while at much higher prices, like if someone just bought one or whatnot, so it might not piss players off as much as banning a recently/currently expensive card
Not that I'd support a fetch ban, as it would basically kill the usefulness of Hedron Crab, which is a pet card of mine, since my first Modern deck was a mill deck.
* Remaining 3 color decks would have to rely more on shocklands (currently they can avoid full playsets of such if they want and their cards allow for it) making them potentially weaker to burn, or have a less reliable mana base, penalizing them effectively for being greedy in colors
This isn't quite accurate. The damage is the same but the reliability is different. With the right deck construction the reliability can be brought to the same level, but that means being more conscious of the cards you include. Here's two quick sample manabases
10 fetch
6 shock
4 basic
2 other duals
2 utility
In absolute terms this manabase deals 22 damage to itself. More often in games it will fetch/shock once, shock again, and fetch again for 6 damage.
This one in absolute terms also deals 22 to itself but thanks to having 13 pain free untapped lands can shock less. It's still almost certainly going to shock on turn 1, and you'll probably shock again later for curve reasons. So we'll call it 4 damage.
The shock/check manabase uses less life. There's more to things than that though. The fetch manabase above has 50 colored sources (I'm counting utility as colorless) while the shock manabase has 40. So the mana fixing is a good deal worse. To make a pratical example here, the fetch manabase could play Liliana of the Veil+Eternal Witness and still have 16 colored sources left over to support other cards. The shock manabase only has 6 left over which means those cards can't coexist in that deck as a 3 color option.
* Getting rid of them will reduce the safety and stability of 'greedy' mana bases, pushing a lot of 3 color decks out of the format, and strengthen nonbasic hate like Blood Moon, it would thusly strengthen a lot of mono-color or two-color decks, like merfolk and mono-green stompy, in comparison, at least theoretically
* Remaining 3 color decks would have to rely more on shocklands (currently they can avoid full playsets of such if they want and their cards allow for it) making them potentially weaker to burn, or have a less reliable mana base, penalizing them effectively for being greedy in colors
The absence of fetchlands would make it harder to run 3-color goodstuff decks, which would actually increase the number of playable cards in Modern. Right now, if you need a beatstick and it's easy to splash green for Tarmogoyf, then you do it. If it were harder to consistently microsplash for powerful cards, people would have to use different, non-staple cards to fill the same roles in their decks.
The second reason to ban fetchlands is because the fetchlands give the user a free shuffle. AvalonAurora mentioned that this would result in shorter games, but the more important point is that it's harder to shuffle your deck. Modern may not be Legacy, but part of the reason that cards like Ponder are too powerful, is because of their interaction with the fetchlands. Modern could have access to more powerful digging tools if the free, uncounterable shuffle didn't exist anymore.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I would like to see someone making a counter on how many times in this thread we had the suggestions to ban: 1) Tarmogoyf, 2) Fetchlands and unban 1) Jace 2) something ridiculous like storm parts or GSZ.
I like theoretical discussion but if a suggestion is theoretical it should be presented as such. Right now suggesting a Tarmogoyf ban for example is not even close to realistic. The card is being reprinted in MM2, it is more than obvious that there is absolutely no intention to ban it.
Same goes for fetchlands, they have JUST been printed. Come on guys. If there is nothing else to discuss we don't need to recycle unrealistic scenarios.
I would like to see someone making a counter on how many times in this thread we had the suggestions to ban: 1) Tarmogoyf, 2) Fetchlands and unban 1) Jace 2) something ridiculous like storm parts or GSZ.
I like theoretical discussion but if a suggestion is theoretical it should be presented as such. Right now suggesting a Tarmogoyf ban for example is not even close to realistic. The card is being reprinted in MM2, it is more than obvious that there is absolutely no intention to ban it.
Same goes for fetchlands, they have JUST been printed. Come on guys. If there is nothing else to discuss we don't need to recycle unrealistic scenarios.
Jace, Seething Song and GSZ are all not ridiculous unbans in my opinion, but if we want to discuss only realistic unbans we might as well discuss nothing because I don't see anything getting unbanned in the near future (GGT was the last 'safe' unban).
Fetchlands aren't going to be banned. They are an omnipresent part of the format, and removing them would cause severe damage to not only every deck in the format, but to player confidence in WotC.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to start a drinking game for reading this thread (starting on page 1).
Take a drink if:
Someone wants Tarmogoyf banned
Someone wants fetchlands banned
Someone wants Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned
Someone wants Stoneforge Mystic unbanned
Bocephus starts arguing with the entire thread
Someone wants (insert random uncommon/common that's rarely used) banned
Someone mentions Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time
Take 2 drinks if someone wants a Legacy staple reprinted in Modern.
Finish your drink if you can still read properly after page 50 (repeated at 100, 150, 200, and 250).
Fetchlands aren't going to be banned. They are an omnipresent part of the format, and removing them would cause severe damage to not only every deck in the format, but to player confidence in WotC.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to start a drinking game for reading this thread (starting on page 1).
Take a drink if:
Someone wants Tarmogoyf banned
Someone wants fetchlands banned
Someone wants Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned
Someone wants Stoneforge Mystic unbanned
Bocephus starts arguing with the entire thread
Someone wants (insert random uncommon/common that's rarely used) banned
Someone mentions Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time
Take 2 drinks if someone wants a Legacy staple reprinted in Modern.
Finish your drink if you can still read properly after page 50 (repeated at 100, 150, 200, and 250).
LOL
Im sure no person on the planet can survive so much alcohol.
If you really want get drunk over the weekend though this is definitely a viable way of doing that.
Fetchlands aren't going to be banned. They are an omnipresent part of the format, and removing them would cause severe damage to not only every deck in the format, but to player confidence in WotC.
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to start a drinking game for reading this thread (starting on page 1).
Take a drink if:
Someone wants Tarmogoyf banned
Someone wants fetchlands banned
Someone wants Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned
Someone wants Stoneforge Mystic unbanned
Bocephus starts arguing with the entire thread
Someone wants (insert random uncommon/common that's rarely used) banned
Someone mentions Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time
Take 2 drinks if someone wants a Legacy staple reprinted in Modern.
Finish your drink if you can still read properly after page 50 (repeated at 100, 150, 200, and 250).
Disappointed with this list, aka I'm not on it, I need to start demanding Bloodbraid Elf gets unbanned more then. Gotta up my game.
SHE DID NOTHING WRONG.
IT WAS DEATHRITE SHAMAN.
SIEGE RHINO IS ARGUABLY BETTER WHEN BURN IS ONE OF THE THREE TIER ONE DECKS.
ETC.
Lol we can't have that on the drinking list! Everyone would DIE. The Bocephus part alone is enough alcohol to put down a horse!
Remember that good-natured and fun spamming is still spamming. Let's stay on topic (I BELIEVE WE CAN DO EEEET!!) and get back to bans.
Also, remember that calling out other users in a deliberately provocative manner can easily get you in trouble for trolling
There are a few interesting metagame changes happening right now that play into banlist discussion. The first is the relative decline in Burn and a parallel rise in Affinity that we have seen in past weeks. I predicted this would happen in my last Modern Nexus metagame article, which was written and posted before all the TCGPlayer States events went up and before the SCG States events even happened. Now those series are confirming that the Burn/Affinity swap is really happening. We aren't going to see this in the metagame stats until the next update, and it won't be a massive percentage point swing. But we should see Affinity inch over Burn by 1% or so.
This means a few dynamics might be at play.
For one, it means Burn ban mania was probably overhyped, which we should have expected given how quickly the tide turned against Burn in KTK. Even with the new Command, Burn still appears quite beatable by a variety of decks. We will need more datapoints to confirm this, particularly the GPs in June, but pre-trends are promising here.
Two, it suggests that Modern has a different deck policing system than many players expect. Burn, an aggro deck, might not be policed by just combo decks (particularly because Modern combo decks win about as quickly as Burn does, which is itself a question about the turn 4 rule but I'll save that for later. Burn is potentially being policed by another aggro deck: Affinity. If Burn goes too suicidal in its manabase, Affinity punishes that hard. And in turn, Affinity gets policed by control decks and decks that can play Silence. Weird, weird world!
Three, it might give Wizards pause about unbanning something like Sword if the format can adapt to aggressive and linear aggro strategies without unbanning cards. I still think there are lots of reasons to unban Sword (e.g. it helps traditional control, it helps control colors that are underrepresented, it's a good policeman in the future, etc.), but it is possible that the metagame situation makes an unban less likely.
Put "take 2 drinks for every post from Valanarch" on the list and the entire world will run out of alcohol
Can I sig this (sorry for getting of topic Ktkenshinx, just want to know)?
Sure. Feel free to do that.
On-topic:
I never bought into Burn ban mania.
Yes, it is an an annoying deck and it requires sideboard slots to fight unless you are on Souls Sisters or can kill just as fast. But it never was really the deck to beat. It was always under Abzan and now it's under Twin too.
But that is to be expected. It wouldn't be Modern if the format wouldn't be Overgrown Tomb vs. Steam Vents.
But it can be done now and with power creep being a very real thing there is no reason whatsoever to think that it wouldn't become more consistent in the future. So in essence, it does limit design space. And being that this is even possible, regardless the probability (having a game winning combo with the mana to back up the turn 3 win with counter magic)its pretty scary. And while I don't think logistically Twin requires a ban, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was. Its erroneous to think it will not get better with new printings.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
But it can be done now and with power creep being a very real thing there is no reason whatsoever to think that it wouldn't become more consistent in the future. So in essence, it does limit design space. And being that this is even possible, regardless the probability (having a game winning combo with the mana to back up the turn 3 win with counter magic)its pretty scary. And while I don't think logistically Twin requires a ban, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was. Its erroneous to think it will not get better with new printings.
Every deck can possibly get better with new printings. Twin is not going to get any more cards than something like Junk or Burn. Also, saying that it would be reasonable to ban Twin because in the future a highly inconsistent turn 3 win that sees no play could become more consistent is completely absurd.
But it can be done now and with power creep being a very real thing there is no reason whatsoever to think that it wouldn't become more consistent in the future. So in essence, it does limit design space. And being that this is even possible, regardless the probability (having a game winning combo with the mana to back up the turn 3 win with counter magic)its pretty scary. And while I don't think logistically Twin requires a ban, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was. Its erroneous to think it will not get better with new printings.
Every deck can possibly get better with new printings. Twin is not going to get any more cards than something like Junk or Burn. Also, saying that it would be reasonable to ban Twin because in the future a highly inconsistent turn 3 win that sees no play could become more consistent is completely absurd.
I don't know about you, but I definitely expect Junk to get a lot of new pieces in the immediate future. Wizards seems to be giving a lot of love to the BGx archetype as of late. Twin, I don't know. It might get some pieces through red, but I doubt there will be any good blue tools for Twin to play with for quite a while.
But it can be done now and with power creep being a very real thing there is no reason whatsoever to think that it wouldn't become more consistent in the future. So in essence, it does limit design space. And being that this is even possible, regardless the probability (having a game winning combo with the mana to back up the turn 3 win with counter magic)its pretty scary. And while I don't think logistically Twin requires a ban, it wouldn't hurt my feelings if it was. Its erroneous to think it will not get better with new printings.
Every deck can possibly get better with new printings. Twin is not going to get any more cards than something like Junk or Burn. Also, saying that it would be reasonable to ban Twin because in the future a highly inconsistent turn 3 win that sees no play could become more consistent is completely absurd.
I don't know about you, but I definitely expect Junk to get a lot of new pieces in the immediate future. Wizards seems to be giving a lot of love to the BGx archetype as of late. Twin, I don't know. It might get some pieces through red, but I doubt there will be any good blue tools for Twin to play with for quite a while.
Agreed. Wizards isn't exactly pushing blue (outside of Delve).
As for banning fetchlands, the losses are dismal compared to the benefits:
I have found Leonin Arbiter inconsistent at hosing fetchlands, especially on the draw. Most of the time the use I have seen is to couple it with Path to Exile.
The biggest question would be whether linear decks like Infect or Bogles become better because now the sideboard cards are more difficult to splash. I don't know but I would be eager to try that Modern format. (I own two playsets of fetchlands, one from Zendikar, and wouldn't bother to see their prices plummet in the slightest).
Sadly, it won't happen. The writing was on the wall the moment they reprinted the fetchlands in Khans.
What even are the benefits of banning fetchlands? Banning them would kill Zoo, Hatebears, Death and Taxes, Blue Moon, and several 3-color decks. What would fetchlands do that offsets killing a bunch of decks?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
The benefit is that when all other banlist topics are exhausted we can always turn to fetchlands for some giggles.
The only legitimate reason for banning fetchlands is that it takes up too much time at events. But given that Wizards just reprinted them and is probably about to reprint another set during BFZ, it seems like this isn't a concern on their end, so it shouldn't be for us.
People don't have to buy them? That's like 99% of the reasons I see for banning them, which is the same stupid argument as banning Tarmogoyf.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
Except half of them aren't even that expensive and the other half is probably getting reprinted in Battle for Zendikar, which will make them crash in price too, so even that stupid argument doesn't make sense.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Hence why it's stupid.
URW Control
WBG Abzan
GRW Burn
EDH
GR Rosheen Meanderer
I can see some reasons besides price, which is a stupid argument with the recent printing.
* Getting rid of them will reduce the safety and stability of 'greedy' mana bases, pushing a lot of 3 color decks out of the format, and strengthen nonbasic hate like Blood Moon, it would thusly strengthen a lot of mono-color or two-color decks, like merfolk and mono-green stompy, in comparison, at least theoretically
* Remaining 3 color decks would have to rely more on shocklands (currently they can avoid full playsets of such if they want and their cards allow for it) making them potentially weaker to burn, or have a less reliable mana base, penalizing them effectively for being greedy in colors
* Rounds would take less time due to likely reduced shuffling
* Tarmogoyf will often be smaller, and delve spells will take longer, and similar graveyard stuff will be weakened
* Landfall type stuff will be forced to rely on green 'play extra lands' spells or slower types of fetch effects like Evolving Wilds instead of super cheap and efficient fetches, allowing them to print stronger landfall type stuff
* The fetch-shock synergy is gone so they can print more duals with basic land types for other reasons than just the shocklands
* Because mana bases are weaker, especially at 3 color, they can somewhat increase the power of multicolor cards, since Modern players are now effectively paying 'more' for them, especially for 3+ color cards
* Newbies entering the format when there aren't fetches or shocks in Standard will have less of a mana base upgrade needed to transition from Standard
* Less opportunities for sneaky cheaters to do sneaky cheater stuff when messing with their libraries while fetching (this is a bad reason)
* Now that fetches _are_ cheaper, the players who have an 'investment' in them won't be facing as big a financial hit, sorta, if they were banned now, rather than banned while at much higher prices, like if someone just bought one or whatnot, so it might not piss players off as much as banning a recently/currently expensive card
Not that I'd support a fetch ban, as it would basically kill the usefulness of Hedron Crab, which is a pet card of mine, since my first Modern deck was a mill deck.
This isn't quite accurate. The damage is the same but the reliability is different. With the right deck construction the reliability can be brought to the same level, but that means being more conscious of the cards you include. Here's two quick sample manabases
10 fetch
6 shock
4 basic
2 other duals
2 utility
In absolute terms this manabase deals 22 damage to itself. More often in games it will fetch/shock once, shock again, and fetch again for 6 damage.
Here's another manabase
11 shock
7 check
4 basic
2 utility
This one in absolute terms also deals 22 to itself but thanks to having 13 pain free untapped lands can shock less. It's still almost certainly going to shock on turn 1, and you'll probably shock again later for curve reasons. So we'll call it 4 damage.
The shock/check manabase uses less life. There's more to things than that though. The fetch manabase above has 50 colored sources (I'm counting utility as colorless) while the shock manabase has 40. So the mana fixing is a good deal worse. To make a pratical example here, the fetch manabase could play Liliana of the Veil+Eternal Witness and still have 16 colored sources left over to support other cards. The shock manabase only has 6 left over which means those cards can't coexist in that deck as a 3 color option.
The second reason to ban fetchlands is because the fetchlands give the user a free shuffle. AvalonAurora mentioned that this would result in shorter games, but the more important point is that it's harder to shuffle your deck. Modern may not be Legacy, but part of the reason that cards like Ponder are too powerful, is because of their interaction with the fetchlands. Modern could have access to more powerful digging tools if the free, uncounterable shuffle didn't exist anymore.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I like theoretical discussion but if a suggestion is theoretical it should be presented as such. Right now suggesting a Tarmogoyf ban for example is not even close to realistic. The card is being reprinted in MM2, it is more than obvious that there is absolutely no intention to ban it.
Same goes for fetchlands, they have JUST been printed. Come on guys. If there is nothing else to discuss we don't need to recycle unrealistic scenarios.
UB Faeries (15-6-0)
UWR Control (10-5-1)/Kiki Control/Midrange/Harbinger
UBR Cruel Control (6-4-0)/Grixis Control/Delver/Blue Jund
UWB Control/Mentor
UW Miracles/Control (currently active, 14-2-0)
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
RW Burn (9-1-0)
I do (academic) research on video games and archaeology! You can check out my open access book here: https://www.sidestone.com/books/the-interactive-past
Jace, Seething Song and GSZ are all not ridiculous unbans in my opinion, but if we want to discuss only realistic unbans we might as well discuss nothing because I don't see anything getting unbanned in the near future (GGT was the last 'safe' unban).
Now that we've gotten that out of the way, I'd like to start a drinking game for reading this thread (starting on page 1).
Take a drink if:
Someone wants Tarmogoyf banned
Someone wants fetchlands banned
Someone wants Jace, The Mind Sculptor unbanned
Someone wants Stoneforge Mystic unbanned
Bocephus starts arguing with the entire thread
Someone wants (insert random uncommon/common that's rarely used) banned
Someone mentions Treasure Cruise or Dig Through Time
Take 2 drinks if someone wants a Legacy staple reprinted in Modern.
Finish your drink if you can still read properly after page 50 (repeated at 100, 150, 200, and 250).
LOL
Im sure no person on the planet can survive so much alcohol.
If you really want get drunk over the weekend though this is definitely a viable way of doing that.
Lol we can't have that on the drinking list! Everyone would DIE. The Bocephus part alone is enough alcohol to put down a horse!
Also, remember that calling out other users in a deliberately provocative manner can easily get you in trouble for trolling
There are a few interesting metagame changes happening right now that play into banlist discussion. The first is the relative decline in Burn and a parallel rise in Affinity that we have seen in past weeks. I predicted this would happen in my last Modern Nexus metagame article, which was written and posted before all the TCGPlayer States events went up and before the SCG States events even happened. Now those series are confirming that the Burn/Affinity swap is really happening. We aren't going to see this in the metagame stats until the next update, and it won't be a massive percentage point swing. But we should see Affinity inch over Burn by 1% or so.
This means a few dynamics might be at play.
For one, it means Burn ban mania was probably overhyped, which we should have expected given how quickly the tide turned against Burn in KTK. Even with the new Command, Burn still appears quite beatable by a variety of decks. We will need more datapoints to confirm this, particularly the GPs in June, but pre-trends are promising here.
Two, it suggests that Modern has a different deck policing system than many players expect. Burn, an aggro deck, might not be policed by just combo decks (particularly because Modern combo decks win about as quickly as Burn does, which is itself a question about the turn 4 rule but I'll save that for later. Burn is potentially being policed by another aggro deck: Affinity. If Burn goes too suicidal in its manabase, Affinity punishes that hard. And in turn, Affinity gets policed by control decks and decks that can play Silence. Weird, weird world!
Three, it might give Wizards pause about unbanning something like Sword if the format can adapt to aggressive and linear aggro strategies without unbanning cards. I still think there are lots of reasons to unban Sword (e.g. it helps traditional control, it helps control colors that are underrepresented, it's a good policeman in the future, etc.), but it is possible that the metagame situation makes an unban less likely.
Can I sig this (sorry for getting of topic Ktkenshinx, just want to know)?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Sure. Feel free to do that.
On-topic:
I never bought into Burn ban mania.
Yes, it is an an annoying deck and it requires sideboard slots to fight unless you are on Souls Sisters or can kill just as fast. But it never was really the deck to beat. It was always under Abzan and now it's under Twin too.
But that is to be expected. It wouldn't be Modern if the format wouldn't be Overgrown Tomb vs. Steam Vents.
Sig away in peace, my son! ...and then return to the topic!
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
Every deck can possibly get better with new printings. Twin is not going to get any more cards than something like Junk or Burn. Also, saying that it would be reasonable to ban Twin because in the future a highly inconsistent turn 3 win that sees no play could become more consistent is completely absurd.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I don't know about you, but I definitely expect Junk to get a lot of new pieces in the immediate future. Wizards seems to be giving a lot of love to the BGx archetype as of late. Twin, I don't know. It might get some pieces through red, but I doubt there will be any good blue tools for Twin to play with for quite a while.
Agreed. Wizards isn't exactly pushing blue (outside of Delve).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.