It isn't that its a tutor, but it puts Pod so far ahead of what other decks are capable of doing on those same early turns and most other fair creature decks (Zoo for instance, which Wizards apparently wants to see back) cant compete unless they too are doing something to generate a large amount of value. Zoo is just not going to beat Rhino Pod 9/10 games. What are you gonna do about a Finks/Rhino/Resto/Archangel? Like, come on now.
If the deck wasn't as consistent as it had been and hadn't had such a good matchup against Delver I bet we wouldn't have seen a ban this time.
As for the argument that it should have been banned a long time ago, that's horse*****. It hasn't ever broken 16% of the meta and it was fairly balanced before KtK. It was good, but by no means broken.
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Active Modern Decks
U Tron GW Bogles RG Loam UR Blue Breach RBU Grixis Goryo BRU Grixis Delver GBR Jund GBW Junk
The deck is dead. Arguing that it isn't in nonsense. You cant call a deck trying to play Emrakuls and fatties Hypergenesis because its banned and the deck doesn't use its namesake card. Without it, the deck is less consistent (main reason to play Pod) and worse than Junk Midrange.
Of course Pod is dead, I never said it wasn't.
And yes, some of the Pod pieces don't see play in a wide variety of decks. But again, you only had to buy one of most of them, and most of them are still playable (or trade-able, if you don't want to use them yourself...Linvala, to use one of your examples, is still going for like $40).
And lastly, (I'm biased, obviously) I believe my Hatebears/Junk hybrid is in some ways stronger than the stock Junk lists I see. It's more aggro-oriented, which lets it create a lot more early pressure than stock Junk/Rock-type lists, while still retaining a lot of the great removal and disruption. There's a chance that I'm wrong, but maybe I'm right. At least I'm trying to innovate, instead of just saying "Wizards broke my toy and it can never be fixed!"
From all the podcasts, and the talks of some people I respect there seems to be a consensus; most people claimed if they were to ban Treasure Cruise that Dig Through Time had to go with it. They do not want a Blue dominated format, and I can also envision Dig Through Time helping tremendously in strategies like Scapeshift and Splinter Twin to be degrees above anything else available in the card pool.
At first I didn't appreciate the ban on DTT, now after some level of reflection I am just truthfully more disappointed that Bloodbraid Elf and Sword of the Meek didn't come off the list yet, although with the discussions I have had - I have a higher level of hope that is easily possible in the near future.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
If your deck artificially narrows metagame diversity, you'll take a ban. If that line sounded like something a politician would say, it's probably because it set off your BS meter. So if in six months, Twin starts performing like its a rocket, get ready for your ban.
Is that honestly a format people are happy with? A format where people become scared to play they best deck because if it reaches a certain threshold of wins/metagame saturation, you take a ban?
I'm out. I can just not care about Modern, but there were a bunch of players out there who did care, and are now more skittish to invest heavily or invest at all.
If your deck artificially narrows metagame diversity, you'll take a ban. If that line sounded like something a politician would say, it's probably because it set off your BS meter. So if in six months, Twin starts performing like its a rocket, get ready for your ban.
Is that honestly a format people are happy with? A format where people become scared to play they best deck because if it reaches a certain threshold of wins/metagame saturation, you take a ban?
I'm out. I can just not care about Modern, but there were a bunch of players out there who did care, and are now more skittish to invest heavily or invest at all.
You also thought that post for a "traditional magic format" was a good idea. Clearly your thoughts on what the format should be don't alogn with then majority. Even the most diehard unban proponents here don't want a restricted list format.
If your deck artificially narrows metagame diversity, you'll take a ban. If that line sounded like something a politician would say, it's probably because it set off your BS meter. So if in six months, Twin starts performing like its a rocket, get ready for your ban.
Is that honestly a format people are happy with? A format where people become scared to play they best deck because if it reaches a certain threshold of wins/metagame saturation, you take a ban?
I'm out. I can just not care about Modern, but there were a bunch of players out there who did care, and are now more skittish to invest heavily or invest at all.
You also thought that post for a "traditional magic format" was a good idea. Clearly your thoughts on what the format should be don't alogn with then majority. Even the most diehard unban proponents here don't want a restricted list format.
I will be honsest I am suprised wizards really only uses restricted for vintage. I think it's a good compromise.
From all the podcasts, and the talks of some people I respect there seems to be a consensus; most people claimed if they were to ban Treasure Cruise that Dig Through Time had to go with it. They do not want a Blue dominated format, and I can also envision Dig Through Time helping tremendously in strategies like Scapeshift and Splinter Twin to be degrees above anything else available in the card pool.
At first I didn't appreciate the ban on DTT, now after some level of reflection I am just truthfully more disappointed that Bloodbraid Elf and Sword of the Meek didn't come off the list yet, although with the discussions I have had - I have a higher level of hope that is easily possible in the near future.
Theorycrafting is theorycrafting. The effect of a TC + Pod ban on the meta is absolutely debatable. The next announcement is barely over two months from now; it would have been fine to see how the meta adapted during that short period. By banning DTT, Wizards shows that they are willing to ban a card with no supporting data which is a very concerning thought.
Well the suggestion was that there IS no banlist and that it was entirely restricted.
Now some cards COULD be safely restricted and released into the format (I feel ponder and preordain fit this category) but many can't due to tutors. And even for those that can, it just makes the games more lotteryesque and less fun.
If your deck artificially narrows metagame diversity, you'll take a ban. If that line sounded like something a politician would say, it's probably because it set off your BS meter. So if in six months, Twin starts performing like its a rocket, get ready for your ban.
Is that honestly a format people are happy with? A format where people become scared to play they best deck because if it reaches a certain threshold of wins/metagame saturation, you take a ban?
I'm out. I can just not care about Modern, but there were a bunch of players out there who did care, and are now more skittish to invest heavily or invest at all.
You also thought that post for a "traditional magic format" was a good idea. Clearly your thoughts on what the format should be don't alogn with then majority. Even the most diehard unban proponents here don't want a restricted list format.
I would rather push boundaries than restrict them personally. In that thread, I am willing to go out on the limb and have some cards unbanned/cards restricted. I've played Vintage and Legacy for years and am acclimated to the abrupt and most ruthless the game has to offer. The game's creators seem to be more afraid of their creation these days.
I personally believe Modern would be a better format if ban criteria were not vague or based on gut feeling. Maybe if they were even intentionally consistent, possibly even if they banned the correct cards at the correct times. The DCI hasn't had the best track record over they years but not for a lack of effort.
I agree also that I am a in the minority of players in play style and outlook.
Well the suggestion was that there IS no banlist and that it was entirely restricted.
Now some cards COULD be safely restricted and released into the format (I feel ponder and preordain fit this category) but many can't due to tutors. And even for those that can, it just makes the games more lotteryesque and less fun.
You can't on one hand ban pod because it allows you to easily run one ofs and then encourage one ofs by restricting cards instead of banning
I am obviously still raw from the banning, Pod was my one and only modern deck. I invested a lot of money to get a pod deck, I can't really see any deck that I would want to play now. Hopefully this will change after people have had a chance to make changes and I see a deck I like.
Out of curiosity what will UR delver players be replacing treasure cruise with?
...
They said it wouldn't be a non-rotating format but that's exactly what it feels like, though through the use of bannings rather than unbannings or new printings.
EDIT: Grammar
The impression I get is that Modern will be a rotating format until it is Standard+ and works as an escape valve for Standard players at the end of rotations. I think that is the grand-design for Modern, a big midrange slugfest devoid of any powerful combo / tutor / draw effect.
If your deck artificially narrows metagame diversity, you'll take a ban. If that line sounded like something a politician would say, it's probably because it set off your BS meter. So if in six months, Twin starts performing like its a rocket, get ready for your ban.
Is that honestly a format people are happy with? A format where people become scared to play they best deck because if it reaches a certain threshold of wins/metagame saturation, you take a ban?
I'm out. I can just not care about Modern, but there were a bunch of players out there who did care, and are now more skittish to invest heavily or invest at all.
You also thought that post for a "traditional magic format" was a good idea. Clearly your thoughts on what the format should be don't alogn with then majority. Even the most diehard unban proponents here don't want a restricted list format.
I would rather push boundaries than restrict them personally. In that thread, I am willing to go out on the limb and have some cards unbanned/cards restricted. I've played Vintage and Legacy for years and am acclimated to the abrupt and most ruthless the game has to offer. The game's creators seem to be more afraid of their creation these days.
I personally believe Modern would be a better format if ban criteria were not vague or based on gut feeling. Maybe if they were even intentionally consistent, possibly even if they banned the correct cards at the correct times. The DCI hasn't had the best track record over they years but not for a lack of effort.
I agree also that I am a in the minority of players in play style and outlook.
You do understand not everyone likes the ruthlessness of Vintage and Legacy and would like a format for them. Not everyone likes dumping money into Standard to be competitive. Modern has been that in between format. As long as the older more ruthless formats are around Modern does and should fall between Standard and Legacy on power level. Which I think Wotc has been very good at doing. Everyone has known Pod was going to get banned at some point. The more creatures that were printed, the stronger Pod would become. We have seen Wotc's feelings about cheap card draw, TC and DTT go against that thinking. So much so that TC got banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage.
Also, restricted lists are terrible. It becomes a race to who can get to their most powerful restricted card played first to gain an advantage over your opponent.
At least you know you are in the minority in your thinking.
Reminder, There is quite a mixed bag in terms of feelings of this banning, so please do your best to be non bias in your posts. I will infract anyone who makes fun of the ban/ people upset of the ban or is too emotional over it. Please, please be civil.
Well the suggestion was that there IS no banlist and that it was entirely restricted.
Now some cards COULD be safely restricted and released into the format (I feel ponder and preordain fit this category) but many can't due to tutors. And even for those that can, it just makes the games more lotteryesque and less fun.
You can't on one hand ban pod because it allows you to easily run one ofs and then encourage one ofs by restricting cards instead of banning
Sorry I was referencing a hypothetical from another thread. I actually LIKE the banlist with the exception of sword of the meek, AV, and dig through time and don't want ANY card on a restricted list.
Can we stop this whole "Pod made aggro bad" bull*****? Modern is just hostile to aggro.
Yeah, pre-KtK, one of the players in my store wanted to test Tribal Zoo to see if it was viable in our meta. I played him with a Twin deck - absolutely no lifegain - and I won like 7-2. If he went all-out aggro, I'd combo before he could get me in Tribal Flames range, but if he tried leaving path mana up, the Exarchs, Pestermites, and Snap-bolt would slow him down enough that I could combo with protection. Storm would also combo easily against zoo. I think the deck's only good matchup was versus the Tron decks, but I don't know how it went against BGx. Needless to say, the guy gave up on the deck.
Yeah, pre-KtK, one of the players in my store wanted to test Tribal Zoo to see if it was viable in our meta. I played him with a Twin deck - absolutely no lifegain - and I won like 7-2. If he went all-out aggro, I'd combo before he could get me in Tribal Flames range, but if he tried leaving path mana up, the Exarchs, Pestermites, and Snap-bolt would slow him down enough that I could combo with protection. Storm would also combo easily against zoo. I think the deck's only good matchup was versus the Tron decks, but I don't know how it went against BGx. Needless to say, the guy gave up on the deck.
What kind of Zoo exactly? There are different types of 4c either more B or a splash. Sideboard? Could be a number of things. 1 player playing 9 games vs 1 other deck does not say anything. Plus, Dlucks statement is about aggro in general and Zoo hasn't really been a deck up until WN was unbanned.
Yeah, pre-KtK, one of the players in my store wanted to test Tribal Zoo to see if it was viable in our meta. I played him with a Twin deck - absolutely no lifegain - and I won like 7-2. If he went all-out aggro, I'd combo before he could get me in Tribal Flames range, but if he tried leaving path mana up, the Exarchs, Pestermites, and Snap-bolt would slow him down enough that I could combo with protection. Storm would also combo easily against zoo. I think the deck's only good matchup was versus the Tron decks, but I don't know how it went against BGx. Needless to say, the guy gave up on the deck.
What kind of Zoo exactly? There are different types of 4c either more B or a splash. Sideboard? Could be a number of things. 1 player playing 9 games vs 1 other deck does not say anything. Plus, Dlucks statement is about aggro in general and Zoo hasn't really been a deck up until WN was unbanned.
It was right after WN got unbanned. It was... Tribal Zoo? So obviously 5c. It was definetily on the more aggro side of things, with a ton of 1 drops, only 20 lands, etc. No post sideboard games. Evidently, this only anecdotal, but he played a lot of people at our LGS, and the decks only good matchups were the Trons - but this seems to be reflective of the pre-KtK meta, where zoo decks didn't really have much success.
It was right after WN got unbanned. It was... Tribal Zoo? So obviously 5c. It was definetily on the more aggro side of things, with a ton of 1 drops, only 20 lands, etc. No post sideboard games. Evidently, this only anecdotal, but he played a lot of people at our LGS, and the decks only good matchups were the Trons - but this seems to be reflective of the pre-KtK meta, where zoo decks didn't really have much success.
understood. The meta has shifted slightly and Zoo might be better positioned. I have seen Kibler sideboard in PWs against control and other anti-spells like RR Eidelon.
Egg = a slang term for any cheap cantripping artifact.
Chromatic Star/Sphere and Conjurer's Bauble are eggs.
Sometimes, deck names don't match up 100% with the deck they're being played in. But in this case, Pod is THE strongest card in the Pod deck, no question.
But the name eggs originated from the cards that were in fact eggs. And the name has carried on even though eggs aren't in the deck.
Yes, because it's still based around that strategy and that engine. Egg refers to the class of card, not simply those with egg in the name. Similarly, vampire strategies do not need to include cards with vampire in the name.
Do you actually misunderstand, or are you being pointlessly pedantic?
STATISTICS.
All of these "Let's eliminate bad cards" crusades are simply ignorant. And when they start to devolve into "WotC is conspiring to give us crappy cards," they just become embarrassing. MATH is conspiring to give you crappy cards.
Do you guys think that Delve will from now on will be higher on MaRos Storm scale and that we won't see it again in the foreseeable considering how much that backfired?
Do you guys think that Delve will from now on will be higher on MaRos Storm scale and that we won't see it again in the foreseeable considering how much that backfired?
no. they've tried really hard to make a AV replacement that didn't suck (visions of beyond-esque) or wasn't too good (brainstorm. TC was their latest attempt at that. they tried double impulse as well, and that proved to be too good (arguable). their other delve spells from khans are all average or below average.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
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If the deck wasn't as consistent as it had been and hadn't had such a good matchup against Delver I bet we wouldn't have seen a ban this time.
As for the argument that it should have been banned a long time ago, that's horse*****. It hasn't ever broken 16% of the meta and it was fairly balanced before KtK. It was good, but by no means broken.
U Tron
GW Bogles
RG Loam
UR Blue Breach
RBU Grixis Goryo
BRU Grixis Delver
GBR Jund
GBW Junk
Active Legacy Decks
BR Reanimator
Of course Pod is dead, I never said it wasn't.
And yes, some of the Pod pieces don't see play in a wide variety of decks. But again, you only had to buy one of most of them, and most of them are still playable (or trade-able, if you don't want to use them yourself...Linvala, to use one of your examples, is still going for like $40).
And lastly, (I'm biased, obviously) I believe my Hatebears/Junk hybrid is in some ways stronger than the stock Junk lists I see. It's more aggro-oriented, which lets it create a lot more early pressure than stock Junk/Rock-type lists, while still retaining a lot of the great removal and disruption. There's a chance that I'm wrong, but maybe I'm right. At least I'm trying to innovate, instead of just saying "Wizards broke my toy and it can never be fixed!"
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
At first I didn't appreciate the ban on DTT, now after some level of reflection I am just truthfully more disappointed that Bloodbraid Elf and Sword of the Meek didn't come off the list yet, although with the discussions I have had - I have a higher level of hope that is easily possible in the near future.
Hostile to aggro?
Modern is hostile to everything.
There are a lot of combo cards on the Modern banlist. In alphabetical order: Chrome Mox, Dread Return, Glimpse of Nature, Hypergenesis, Rite of Flame, Second Sunrise, and Seething Song.
But it could still be worse for an aggro player, because you could be playing control: Cloudpost, Dark Depths, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Punishing Fire, Sensei's Divining Top, Stoneforge Mystic, and Sword of the Meek
And that doesn't even count the staples that fit into both of the above archetypes: Ponder, Preordain, Dig Through Time, and Treasure Cruise.
Honestly, the only dedicated aggro cards that are on the banlist are Bloodbraid Elf and Green Sun's Zenith. Blazing Shoal Infect plays like a combo deck, and both Deathrite Shaman and Umezawa's Jitte slide into both aggro and control.
Again, Modern is hostile to everything, but if you're an aggro player, life could be much worse, because you could be playing literally anything else.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
Is that honestly a format people are happy with? A format where people become scared to play they best deck because if it reaches a certain threshold of wins/metagame saturation, you take a ban?
I'm out. I can just not care about Modern, but there were a bunch of players out there who did care, and are now more skittish to invest heavily or invest at all.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
You also thought that post for a "traditional magic format" was a good idea. Clearly your thoughts on what the format should be don't alogn with then majority. Even the most diehard unban proponents here don't want a restricted list format.
I will be honsest I am suprised wizards really only uses restricted for vintage. I think it's a good compromise.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
Now some cards COULD be safely restricted and released into the format (I feel ponder and preordain fit this category) but many can't due to tutors. And even for those that can, it just makes the games more lotteryesque and less fun.
I would rather push boundaries than restrict them personally. In that thread, I am willing to go out on the limb and have some cards unbanned/cards restricted. I've played Vintage and Legacy for years and am acclimated to the abrupt and most ruthless the game has to offer. The game's creators seem to be more afraid of their creation these days.
I personally believe Modern would be a better format if ban criteria were not vague or based on gut feeling. Maybe if they were even intentionally consistent, possibly even if they banned the correct cards at the correct times. The DCI hasn't had the best track record over they years but not for a lack of effort.
I agree also that I am a in the minority of players in play style and outlook.
Big Thanks to Xeno for sig art <3.
You can't on one hand ban pod because it allows you to easily run one ofs and then encourage one ofs by restricting cards instead of banning
I'm going to try UR delver with Visions of Beyond to replace TC.
The impression I get is that Modern will be a rotating format until it is Standard+ and works as an escape valve for Standard players at the end of rotations. I think that is the grand-design for Modern, a big midrange slugfest devoid of any powerful combo / tutor / draw effect.
You do understand not everyone likes the ruthlessness of Vintage and Legacy and would like a format for them. Not everyone likes dumping money into Standard to be competitive. Modern has been that in between format. As long as the older more ruthless formats are around Modern does and should fall between Standard and Legacy on power level. Which I think Wotc has been very good at doing. Everyone has known Pod was going to get banned at some point. The more creatures that were printed, the stronger Pod would become. We have seen Wotc's feelings about cheap card draw, TC and DTT go against that thinking. So much so that TC got banned in Legacy and restricted in Vintage.
Also, restricted lists are terrible. It becomes a race to who can get to their most powerful restricted card played first to gain an advantage over your opponent.
At least you know you are in the minority in your thinking.
Sorry I was referencing a hypothetical from another thread. I actually LIKE the banlist with the exception of sword of the meek, AV, and dig through time and don't want ANY card on a restricted list.
Yeah, pre-KtK, one of the players in my store wanted to test Tribal Zoo to see if it was viable in our meta. I played him with a Twin deck - absolutely no lifegain - and I won like 7-2. If he went all-out aggro, I'd combo before he could get me in Tribal Flames range, but if he tried leaving path mana up, the Exarchs, Pestermites, and Snap-bolt would slow him down enough that I could combo with protection. Storm would also combo easily against zoo. I think the deck's only good matchup was versus the Tron decks, but I don't know how it went against BGx. Needless to say, the guy gave up on the deck.
Why not? Those are two fundamentally different positions.
What kind of Zoo exactly? There are different types of 4c either more B or a splash. Sideboard? Could be a number of things. 1 player playing 9 games vs 1 other deck does not say anything. Plus, Dlucks statement is about aggro in general and Zoo hasn't really been a deck up until WN was unbanned.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
It was right after WN got unbanned. It was... Tribal Zoo? So obviously 5c. It was definetily on the more aggro side of things, with a ton of 1 drops, only 20 lands, etc. No post sideboard games. Evidently, this only anecdotal, but he played a lot of people at our LGS, and the decks only good matchups were the Trons - but this seems to be reflective of the pre-KtK meta, where zoo decks didn't really have much success.
understood. The meta has shifted slightly and Zoo might be better positioned. I have seen Kibler sideboard in PWs against control and other anti-spells like RR Eidelon.
I buy HP and Damaged cards!
Only EDH:
Sigarda, Host of Herons: Enchantress' Enchantments
Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
Yes, because it's still based around that strategy and that engine. Egg refers to the class of card, not simply those with egg in the name. Similarly, vampire strategies do not need to include cards with vampire in the name.
Do you actually misunderstand, or are you being pointlessly pedantic?
no. they've tried really hard to make a AV replacement that didn't suck (visions of beyond-esque) or wasn't too good (brainstorm. TC was their latest attempt at that. they tried double impulse as well, and that proved to be too good (arguable). their other delve spells from khans are all average or below average.