Well when WOTC kills your deck that you paid a significant amount of cash for, you no longer have the deck that you always wanted to play and the replacement is obviously not good enough so then they will complain the loudest. Bannings in this format ACTUALLY KILL DECKS. There's no banning in recent memory in Legacy that KILLED A DECK INTO UNPLAYABALITY.
This is just untrue. Pod was banned and now we have Company/Chord decks; Eye was banned and now we have Bant Eldrazi; Deathrite and Bloodbraid were banned and we still have Jund; Cruise was banned and now we have Grixis Delver; Post was banned and we still have Tron; etc.
I like this Top 8 btw. Less linear than what we saw at the GP weekend, for sure.
Ok, where is my replacement for Summer Bloom? I can't kill people on turn 1 anymore, is there a replacement for that? Where is my Second Sunrise replacement? Is that a deck anymore? Where's my I win button that costs 2RR? Pretty sure that deck is also non-existant. Those decks are dead as far as I am concerned.
Well when WOTC kills your deck that you paid a significant amount of cash for, you no longer have the deck that you always wanted to play and the replacement is obviously not good enough so then they will complain the loudest. Bannings in this format ACTUALLY KILL DECKS. There's no banning in recent memory in Legacy that KILLED A DECK INTO UNPLAYABALITY.
This is just untrue. Pod was banned and now we have Company/Chord decks; Eye was banned and now we have Bant Eldrazi; Deathrite and Bloodbraid were banned and we still have Jund; Cruise was banned and now we have Grixis Delver; Post was banned and we still have Tron; etc.
I like this Top 8 btw. Less linear than what we saw at the GP weekend, for sure.
What did Twin players get? I mean besides 9 months of frustration and misery as well as the complete removal of an entire archetype from competitive Modern? Or are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?
They took AV, SOTM. SOTM may have been a flop, but AV proved to be a good card in certain matchups. Besides that, all the others got something over time. Blue decks will take more cards/prints/unbans. You have to take a little more of frustration though(probably 1-2 years more)
AV a good card? Want to know how many copies of AV were in the top 32 of the SCG Open? A big FAT ZERO. If your claim was true, we should have seen some copies of AV in the top 32 right? But reality shows that it isn't and this is the "world we live in" and I don't know anyone who is willing to live with 1-3 years of losing a lot in Modern with reactive strategies just to "hope" WOTC will print new cards to help reactive blue decks.
Well when WOTC kills your deck that you paid a significant amount of cash for, you no longer have the deck that you always wanted to play and the replacement is obviously not good enough so then they will complain the loudest. Bannings in this format ACTUALLY KILL DECKS. There's no banning in recent memory in Legacy that KILLED A DECK INTO UNPLAYABALITY.
This is just untrue. Pod was banned and now we have Company/Chord decks; Eye was banned and now we have Bant Eldrazi; Deathrite and Bloodbraid were banned and we still have Jund; Cruise was banned and now we have Grixis Delver; Post was banned and we still have Tron; etc.
I like this Top 8 btw. Less linear than what we saw at the GP weekend, for sure.
What did Twin players get? I mean besides 9 months of frustration and misery as well as the complete removal of an entire archetype from competitive Modern? Or are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?
URx decks live on in the form of Jeskai Nahiri and UW Control. We even see Temur Midrange and other fringe URx decks pop up from time to time, which is something that almost never happened while Twin was legal. Wizards' logic for banning Twin is that these decks were strictly worse than those jamming the combo and they wanted more diversity in the URx macro-archetype. The ban worked really well on that front. There are still plenty of Snapcaster-Bolt decks to play. Twin being banned just takes away one of their possible win conditions (the one that, in my opinion, made it silly to play any non-Twin combo deck in Modern period).
It continues to amaze me how so many users are unable to engage in discussions about metagame health on this board without becoming furious and hostile. Questions like "are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?" are just mean. If I were deliberately missing the point, would I even admit to it? This kind of language never engenders productive conversation; it's used to shame and bully other users and it's confusing to me why it's even allowed on MTGS at all. I'm happy to talk about Modern because I love talking about Modern. But I expect the people I'm talking with to have some minimal amount of decency and respect.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
Well when WOTC kills your deck that you paid a significant amount of cash for, you no longer have the deck that you always wanted to play and the replacement is obviously not good enough so then they will complain the loudest. Bannings in this format ACTUALLY KILL DECKS. There's no banning in recent memory in Legacy that KILLED A DECK INTO UNPLAYABALITY.
This is just untrue. Pod was banned and now we have Company/Chord decks; Eye was banned and now we have Bant Eldrazi; Deathrite and Bloodbraid were banned and we still have Jund; Cruise was banned and now we have Grixis Delver; Post was banned and we still have Tron; etc.
I like this Top 8 btw. Less linear than what we saw at the GP weekend, for sure.
Ok, where is my replacement for Summer Bloom? I can't kill people on turn 1 anymore, is there a replacement for that? Where is my Second Sunrise replacement? Is that a deck anymore? Where's my I win button that costs 2RR? Pretty sure that deck is also non-existant. Those decks are dead as far as I am concerned.
- Amulet Titan just got 9th at the triple GP weekend, so maybe the deck is not dead but nobody cares to take the time to develop stuff?
- For turn one decks, there are several decks capable of doing so, even more consistent than Amulet Bloom (which needed the perfect 7)
- Second Breakfast, the deck is still playable but not in the classic version. It either runs BTL or KCI for more consistency, but than again, if only a couple of people are playing it, how should it show results?
- Just got printed (just different mana cost). Also, the I-win button required another 2U card which pushes it to 7 Mana split up in two turns. For this there are several decks which can just win from this position (Ritual Gifts can with a single card for 4 mana untap win).
Dead? Maybe. Dead cause nobody dares to test and improves them? Totally.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: This just shouts to me as a big mimimi. I lost three decks (Ritual Gifts, Kiki Pod and BUG Delver) so far in Modern and I always recovered from it by adapting the deck and got a less powerful deck (welp, there was a reason why the card got banned). The unwillingness to adapt is the biggest reason, why I hate the Modern community so much.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Another thing about ancestral visions not being good because it isn't in the top 32. Many people said the same thing about goryos and simian spirit guide around the time of the last banning. It didn't have to go/wasn't good because it was too inconsistent and it never top anything. This is a dangerous way to judge the power level of cards since modern has so much going on and sometimes you just play your unwinnable matchup for 5 matches in a row.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
UBR ANT UBR TES UBR TNT GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
Well when WOTC kills your deck that you paid a significant amount of cash for, you no longer have the deck that you always wanted to play and the replacement is obviously not good enough so then they will complain the loudest. Bannings in this format ACTUALLY KILL DECKS. There's no banning in recent memory in Legacy that KILLED A DECK INTO UNPLAYABALITY.
This is just untrue. Pod was banned and now we have Company/Chord decks; Eye was banned and now we have Bant Eldrazi; Deathrite and Bloodbraid were banned and we still have Jund; Cruise was banned and now we have Grixis Delver; Post was banned and we still have Tron; etc.
I like this Top 8 btw. Less linear than what we saw at the GP weekend, for sure.
What did Twin players get? I mean besides 9 months of frustration and misery as well as the complete removal of an entire archetype from competitive Modern? Or are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?
URx decks live on in the form of Jeskai Nahiri and UW Control. We even see Temur Midrange and other fringe URx decks pop up from time to time, which is something that almost never happened while Twin was legal. Wizards' logic for banning Twin is that these decks were strictly worse than those jamming the combo and they wanted more diversity in the URx macro-archetype. The ban worked really well on that front. There are still plenty of Snapcaster-Bolt decks to play. Twin being banned just takes away one of their possible win conditions (the one that, in my opinion, made it silly to play any non-Twin combo deck in Modern period).
It continues to amaze me how so many users are unable to engage in discussions about metagame health on this board without becoming furious and hostile. Questions like "are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?" are just mean. If I were deliberately missing the point, would I even admit to it? This kind of language never engenders productive conversation; it's used to shame and bully other users and it's confusing to me why it's even allowed on MTGS at all. I'm happy to talk about Modern because I love talking about Modern. But I expect the people I'm talking with to have some minimal amount of decency and respect.
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
Maybe former Twin players are "furious and hostile," as you say, because not only has there been no suitable replacement for the deck, it has produced the OPPOSITE effect set out by the ban itself. It was supposed to make blue better and instead has only made it worse. Even with two targeted apology unbans, blue reactivate decks have essentially disappeared.
And on top of it all, when people who made the argument nearly a year ago that banning Twin would result in an explosion of linear decks, we were mocked and insulted; labeled as a bunch of whining complainers who have nothing better to do than cry about losing their pet deck. Now we get to say I told you so, and we're still mocked and insulted.
Banning Twin is possibly the worst thing Wizards could have done and the format is considerably worse off because of it. We collectively praised 2015 as one of the best, healthiest, most fun and diverse year Modern had ever had. Now, in 2016, it has been nothing but complaints and frustrations all year long. From Eldrazi Winter to "the situation" we have now, 2016 has been several steps backwards. And that first step was removing the only Tier 1 control deck that served to keep the format in check while NEVER representing an oppressive hold on the meta.
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
I just checked the top decks on MTGTop8 to verify your statement.
URx control decks (Jeskai and Grixis) combine for a 6% metagame share. UWx control decks combine for a 4% metagame share. Before the Twin ban, this 10% of the metagame was made up of Twin decks, and there were no other viable blue-based midrange decks in the format.
You can check the numbers yourself if you don't believe me, but really I think you should check them before making false claims that are so easily debunked. Otherwise it really hurts the credibility of your argument. http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
If you're interested in more holistic data, MN's Top Decks page lists Jeskai Control at 5.2% (firmly Tier 1), with Esper, UW, Grixis, and Blue Moon all in Tier 3. How was Jeskai Nahiri a "flash in the pan" if it's still a top-tier archetype?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
I just checked the top decks on MTGTop8 to verify your statement.
URx control decks (Jeskai and Grixis) combine for a 6% metagame share. UWx control decks combine for a 4% metagame share. Before the Twin ban, this 10% of the metagame was made up of Twin decks, and there were no other viable blue-based midrange decks in the format.
You can check the numbers yourself if you don't believe me, but really I think you should check them before making false claims that are so easily debunked. Otherwise it really hurts the credibility of your argument. http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
If you're interested in more holistic data, MN's Top Decks page lists Jeskai Control at 5.2% (firmly Tier 1), with Esper, UW, Grixis, and Blue Moon all in Tier 3. How was Jeskai Nahiri a "flash in the pan" if it's still a top-tier archetype?
That Nexus data is nearly 2 months old, and KT himself has said that the next update will reflect a very bleak picture of the format, including Jeskai falling handily out of Tier 1 (because it is not a strong deck).
Also, by ignoring the rest of my post, shall I assume you just agree?
I can confirm Jeskai is Tier 2 for August. Tier 1 has the usual suspects like Jund, Burn, Affinity, and Infect, plus Bant Eldrazi, Dredge, Death's Shadow Zoo, and Merfolk. I would have to check the spreadsheet to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that's what it will look like.
Well when WOTC kills your deck that you paid a significant amount of cash for, you no longer have the deck that you always wanted to play and the replacement is obviously not good enough so then they will complain the loudest. Bannings in this format ACTUALLY KILL DECKS. There's no banning in recent memory in Legacy that KILLED A DECK INTO UNPLAYABALITY.
This is just untrue. Pod was banned and now we have Company/Chord decks; Eye was banned and now we have Bant Eldrazi; Deathrite and Bloodbraid were banned and we still have Jund; Cruise was banned and now we have Grixis Delver; Post was banned and we still have Tron; etc.
I like this Top 8 btw. Less linear than what we saw at the GP weekend, for sure.
What did Twin players get? I mean besides 9 months of frustration and misery as well as the complete removal of an entire archetype from competitive Modern? Or are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?
URx decks live on in the form of Jeskai Nahiri and UW Control. We even see Temur Midrange and other fringe URx decks pop up from time to time, which is something that almost never happened while Twin was legal. Wizards' logic for banning Twin is that these decks were strictly worse than those jamming the combo and they wanted more diversity in the URx macro-archetype. The ban worked really well on that front. There are still plenty of Snapcaster-Bolt decks to play. Twin being banned just takes away one of their possible win conditions (the one that, in my opinion, made it silly to play any non-Twin combo deck in Modern period).
It continues to amaze me how so many users are unable to engage in discussions about metagame health on this board without becoming furious and hostile. Questions like "are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?" are just mean. If I were deliberately missing the point, would I even admit to it? This kind of language never engenders productive conversation; it's used to shame and bully other users and it's confusing to me why it's even allowed on MTGS at all. I'm happy to talk about Modern because I love talking about Modern. But I expect the people I'm talking with to have some minimal amount of decency and respect.
Because if I don't express my point with "frustration" you will say that there is nothing wrong and ignore the problem, which is why attacking someone personally is the only way to get a point across. Like if we tried to present this information to you nicely, you're gonna say "nothing's wrong" but no you're brushing away the frustration which leads to these personal attacks. If someone has glasses on that show Modern is sunshine and rainbows, telling them nicely that there is something wrong isn't going to get their attention, you have to be extremely forceful in your approach and that involves attacking said person in such a way that they cannot ignore it.
Because if I don't express my point with "frustration" you will say that there is nothing wrong and ignore the problem, which is why attacking someone personally is the only way to get a point across. Like if we tried to present this information to you nicely, you're gonna say "nothing's wrong" but no you're brushing away the frustration which leads to these personal attacks. If someone has glasses on that show Modern is sunshine and rainbows, telling them nicely that there is something wrong isn't going to get their attention, you have to be extremely forceful in your approach and that involves attacking said person in such a way that they cannot ignore it.
Actually, you expressing yourself that way has made me much more likely to not take you seriously. I'm sure I speak for multiple other users when I say I find civil discourse much more effective at convincing someone of a standpoint than personal attacks and scare quotes.
While I'm hesitant to use the "hate" word, I pretty much share Kathal's viewpoint that most frustration in this format comes from lazy players who are unwilling to adapt to format change. Modern is a format that, by its very nature, is prone to change. (While one stated goal of the format is to have a relatively stable pool of decks, we have seen now that in practice it changes quite frequently between new introductions via Standard sets and diversity bans.) I have not seen this issue present among competent brewers or players who devote lots of time to learning Modern's subtleties (Jeff Hoogland, Kevin Jones, Eli Kassis, Joe Losset, etc.).
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
I just checked the top decks on MTGTop8 to verify your statement.
URx control decks (Jeskai and Grixis) combine for a 6% metagame share. UWx control decks combine for a 4% metagame share. Before the Twin ban, this 10% of the metagame was made up of Twin decks, and there were no other viable blue-based midrange decks in the format.
You can check the numbers yourself if you don't believe me, but really I think you should check them before making false claims that are so easily debunked. Otherwise it really hurts the credibility of your argument. http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
If you're interested in more holistic data, MN's Top Decks page lists Jeskai Control at 5.2% (firmly Tier 1), with Esper, UW, Grixis, and Blue Moon all in Tier 3. How was Jeskai Nahiri a "flash in the pan" if it's still a top-tier archetype?
you cannot combine all snappy decks and then say look they are fine!. each different deck is different in its game plan for the most part. maybe ill bunch all bg/x decks together to find that they are oppressive? lol
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
I just checked the top decks on MTGTop8 to verify your statement.
URx control decks (Jeskai and Grixis) combine for a 6% metagame share. UWx control decks combine for a 4% metagame share. Before the Twin ban, this 10% of the metagame was made up of Twin decks, and there were no other viable blue-based midrange decks in the format.
You can check the numbers yourself if you don't believe me, but really I think you should check them before making false claims that are so easily debunked. Otherwise it really hurts the credibility of your argument. http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
If you're interested in more holistic data, MN's Top Decks page lists Jeskai Control at 5.2% (firmly Tier 1), with Esper, UW, Grixis, and Blue Moon all in Tier 3. How was Jeskai Nahiri a "flash in the pan" if it's still a top-tier archetype?
He will now say "this was a joke and this ship has passed". You can expect it to be tier 2 from the next month on. Ok, I know it will be tier 2 but saying "Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan" and that Grixis and Temur are "useless garbage"(Im talking seriously the particular guy have said those things) make a guy that nobody takes serious(CfusionPM). And probably never will with such claims.
I love my Grixis deck and I consider that to be tier 2. So, show some respect there and try to learn from your mistakes( I know you do a lot of those)
Hes just saying how blue is struggling in modern geeesh no need to personally insult the guy. jeskai is now the only blue deck left in tier 2 and it could even fall more. so he wants blue to be better? so what. a format where blue is better, is probably a less linear one. why hate on that? unless.....oh wait you like linear? because this last even is a foreshadowing to moderns future and current state.
I play grixis ALOT And it certainly doesn't feel tier 2 to me.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
I play grixis ALOT And it certainly doesn't feel tier 2 to me.
Since tiers are based on metagame representation, they aren't subjective. Grixis is definitively Tier 2.
Grixis what? Delver is decent. Though nowhere near Tier 1, I'd say it's middle Tier 2. Control, like the one trying to play 4 drops like Cryptic, Kalitas, P&K, etc, are trash and mostly unplayable in a Turn 3.5 format. They suffer all the same problems Delver does, but also suffers from lack of a quick clock. It's trying to play a Jund-like game, but all their power cards cost 3-4 mana and not 2 mana (like Scooze, Goyf, Bob, etc).
I can confirm Jeskai is Tier 2 for August. Tier 1 has the usual suspects like Jund, Burn, Affinity, and Infect, plus Bant Eldrazi, Dredge, Death's Shadow Zoo, and Merfolk. I would have to check the spreadsheet to be sure, but I'm pretty sure that's what it will look like.
Just looked it up in the spread sheet. As long as it is correct (should be, since it should still use the same methods as you used them), Jeskai Nahiri is currently at 4.2% metagame share and has a Score of 8, which is just within tier 1.
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I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
Maybe former Twin players are "furious and hostile," as you say, because not only has there been no suitable replacement for the deck, it has produced the OPPOSITE effect set out by the ban itself. It was supposed to make blue better and instead has only made it worse. Even with two targeted apology unbans, blue reactivate decks have essentially disappeared.
And on top of it all, when people who made the argument nearly a year ago that banning Twin would result in an explosion of linear decks, we were mocked and insulted; labeled as a bunch of whining complainers who have nothing better to do than cry about losing their pet deck. Now we get to say I told you so, and we're still mocked and insulted.
Banning Twin is possibly the worst thing Wizards could have done and the format is considerably worse off because of it. We collectively praised 2015 as one of the best, healthiest, most fun and diverse year Modern had ever had. Now, in 2016, it has been nothing but complaints and frustrations all year long. From Eldrazi Winter to "the situation" we have now, 2016 has been several steps backwards. And that first step was removing the only Tier 1 control deck that served to keep the format in check while NEVER representing an oppressive hold on the meta.
I do not know, from where you got your last paragraph but it is simply not true. The whining done by the Modern community is such a big problem, that regardless of which result the tournament(s) show, people will whine, cause it is not X/Y/Z.
For me, 2015 was the worst year of Modern, I loved modern back in the days between Avacan Resorted and RTR, the best 6 months Modern I could ever enjoy. In tier 1 we had back then 1 Midrange deck (Jund), 1 Control deck (Jeskai Control), 1 Tempo deck (UWR Delver), 1 Combo/value deck (Kiki Pod) and one dedicated combo deck (Storm) while the tier 2 decks were only marginally worse than the tier 1 decks.
THOSE 6 months I want back, not that boring 2015 metagame. Heck, I even preferred Eldrazi Winter over 2015 metagame and that says a lot.
Because if I don't express my point with "frustration" you will say that there is nothing wrong and ignore the problem, which is why attacking someone personally is the only way to get a point across. Like if we tried to present this information to you nicely, you're gonna say "nothing's wrong" but no you're brushing away the frustration which leads to these personal attacks. If someone has glasses on that show Modern is sunshine and rainbows, telling them nicely that there is something wrong isn't going to get their attention, you have to be extremely forceful in your approach and that involves attacking said person in such a way that they cannot ignore it.
Actually, you expressing yourself that way has made me much more likely to not take you seriously. I'm sure I speak for multiple other users when I say I find civil discourse much more effective at convincing someone of a standpoint than personal attacks and scare quotes.
While I'm hesitant to use the "hate" word, I pretty much share Kathal's viewpoint that most frustration in this format comes from lazy players who are unwilling to adapt to format change. Modern is a format that, by its very nature, is prone to change. (While one stated goal of the format is to have a relatively stable pool of decks, we have seen now that in practice it changes quite frequently between new introductions via Standard sets and diversity bans.) I have not seen this issue present among competent brewers or players who devote lots of time to learning Modern's subtleties (Jeff Hoogland, Kevin Jones, Eli Kassis, Joe Losset, etc.).
I hate this assumption that players are just upset because they can't adapt, as if it's beyond the realm of possibility that they've already tried really hard to adapt their archetype to the meta and found that their archetype simply isn't viable.
It took me 1 year to get the Shoal Griselbanned deck running and functioning, it took me roughly the same amount of time to get Counter Cat remotely playable (thanks again @Ashton for the great work you put in there ^^ ) and it took me 2 years to finally find a good Ritual Gifts list again WHILE I KNOW, that I have at least 1 year of work before me to get it where I want.
What most people I know understand with: "I tried everything but nothing works" is, that they create a list, test it a couple of games, change stuff again, test again, change stuff again test again and than say: "Nope, doesn't work". The big problem with such an approach is, that you need to get first a feeling WHAT is wrong. By doing a couple of quick matches you won't get the feeling. You need to grind those problems out, make changes, test again, analyse and than maybe revert back, cause you went into the wrong direction.
To properly test a new brew (or version of an already existing deck) you need to do A LOT of games before even changing a single card, we are talking about several dozens here. THAN you exactly know, where the problems are and how to fix them. Than you come up with a solution, implement it, test it again vs the gauntlet decks you have, analyse it, change it again and repeat this several iteration before you can finally say: "That deck sucks because of reason X/Y/Z" or "It works, but has some small problems, which we might be able to fix."
Yes, it takes a lot of time, but this is exactly the reason, why so few new decks are cropping up in Modern, since brewing and developing decks take just soooooooo long.
Hence, when somebody comes with: "I tried everything but nothing works" I can just shake my head, since I exactly know, how they "tested" it.
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
I just checked the top decks on MTGTop8 to verify your statement.
URx control decks (Jeskai and Grixis) combine for a 6% metagame share. UWx control decks combine for a 4% metagame share. Before the Twin ban, this 10% of the metagame was made up of Twin decks, and there were no other viable blue-based midrange decks in the format.
You can check the numbers yourself if you don't believe me, but really I think you should check them before making false claims that are so easily debunked. Otherwise it really hurts the credibility of your argument. http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
If you're interested in more holistic data, MN's Top Decks page lists Jeskai Control at 5.2% (firmly Tier 1), with Esper, UW, Grixis, and Blue Moon all in Tier 3. How was Jeskai Nahiri a "flash in the pan" if it's still a top-tier archetype?
you cannot combine all snappy decks and then say look they are fine!. each different deck is different in its game plan for the most part. maybe ill bunch all bg/x decks together to find that they are oppressive? lol
The initial statement was: The Twin ban was bad cause now Uxx sucks.
Wizard stated with the Twin ban, that this is mostly done to enable other URx strategies, since you have no reason to run those, if the best strategy is Twin. Yes, they succeeded with this. The former URx Twin metagame share is now spread up in multiple different strategies, be it Jeskai Nahiri, UW Midrange/Control, Esper Control, or even Uxx Delver.
So yes, for this statement, you can simply group all those Uxx decks together.
I play grixis ALOT And it certainly doesn't feel tier 2 to me.
Since tiers are based on metagame representation, they aren't subjective. Grixis is definitively Tier 2.
I will second this. I am certain that, judging from power level alone, Grixis IS a tier 2 deck. Unless you are doing something wrong.
Totally agree here.
In 2015 metagame I said, that Grixis Delver is by far the worst Grixis deck, since the format is so slow, that you do not need the early pressure. Now, in a more linear metagame, you want those turn 1/2 Delver/Tasigur to get a early clock going. Hence, my opinion shifted from: "Grixis Control is the best Grixis deck" towards "Grixis Delver is the best one, since it can play a decent value game vs Midrange but is aggressive enough to threaten linear strategies".
~block quote~
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
Maybe former Twin players are "furious and hostile," as you say, because not only has there been no suitable replacement for the deck, it has produced the OPPOSITE effect set out by the ban itself. It was supposed to make blue better and instead has only made it worse. Even with two targeted apology unbans, blue reactivate decks have essentially disappeared.
And on top of it all, when people who made the argument nearly a year ago that banning Twin would result in an explosion of linear decks, we were mocked and insulted; labeled as a bunch of whining complainers who have nothing better to do than cry about losing their pet deck. Now we get to say I told you so, and we're still mocked and insulted.
Banning Twin is possibly the worst thing Wizards could have done and the format is considerably worse off because of it. We collectively praised 2015 as one of the best, healthiest, most fun and diverse year Modern had ever had. Now, in 2016, it has been nothing but complaints and frustrations all year long. From Eldrazi Winter to "the situation" we have now, 2016 has been several steps backwards. And that first step was removing the only Tier 1 control deck that served to keep the format in check while NEVER representing an oppressive hold on the meta.
I do not know, from where you got your last paragraph but it is simply not true. The whining done by the Modern community is so huge, that regardless of which result of the tournament(s) people will whine, cause it is not X/Y/Z.
For me, 2015 was the worst year of Modern, I loved modern back in the days between Avacan Resorted and RTR, the best 6 months Modern ever enjoyed. In tier 1 we had back than 1 Midrange deck (Jund), 1 Control deck (Jeskai Control), 1 Tempo deck (UWR Delver), 1 Combo/value deck (Kiki Pod) and one dedicated combo deck (Storm) while the tier 2 decks were only marginally worse than the tier 1 decks.
THOSE 6 months I want back, not that boring 2015 metagame. Heck, I even preferred Eldrazi Winter over 2015 metagame and that says a lot.
I don't know how many people agree with you on that. Many posts, articles, and the general feel from players all last year were praising the format for how healthy it was. There were several clear Tier 1 decks that represented aggro, combo, control, and midrange, in addition to dozens of lower-tier decks that had several moments in the spotlight. It allowed a clear metagame for the top decks spread across all archetype styles and allowed for rogue decks to make their mark from time to time if making the right meta call.
The initial statement was: The Twin ban was bad cause now Uxx sucks.
Wizard stated with the Twin ban, that this is mostly done to enable other URx strategies, since you have no reason to run those, if the best strategy is Twin. Yes, they succeeded with this. The former URx Twin metagame share is now spread up in multiple different strategies, be it Jeskai Nahiri, UW Midrange/Control, Esper Control, or even Uxx Delver.
So it is better for all blue decks to be weak and poor in the format, compared to those same weak and poor decks being weak and poor, but people have the option to also play a good deck?
Banning a good deck doesn't do anything to help decks which struggle on a fundamental level, and this year has proven that week after week, month after month this past year. Esper and UW are <1% with no notable performances, Jeskai Nahiri is falling every update, and Delver is treading water as it moves away from reaction and towards being just another fast aggro deck.
Oh, sure the Guanzhou list that won in the GP was another "fast aggro deck". You are in the point where you are hysterical about Twin and spreading so many lies. '
ANOTHER AGGRO DECK WITH 2O MAINBOARD REACTIVE SPELLS PLUS ANOTHER 13 IN THE BOARD!
That's not what they said, and what they said did not merit your response. I think if you're going to accuse people of being hysterical you should perhaps consider looking back at some of your recent posts.
Delver has been moving away from the reactive counter magic plan. We've even seen some lists toy around with playing Lava Spike and Goblin Guide. Delver is one of the most pro-active of the base-blue strategies (second only to Merfolk) and even "T1 Delver, T2 hold up Remand" can be too slow (and low impact) for this meta. I think it's reasonable to say that's suboptimal.
Oh, sure the Guanzhou list that won in the GP was another "fast aggro deck". You are in the point where you are hysterical about Twin and spreading so many lies. '
ANOTHER AGGRO DECK WITH 2O MAINBOARD REACTIVE SPELLS PLUS ANOTHER 13 IN THE BOARD!
Not even remotely close to my point and a blatant misrepresentation of what I posted. Other people have already chimed in, but the fact that Delver decks are moving away from counterspells, and are instead running Young Pyromancer or even Swiftspear/Goblin Guide/Lava Spike tells me that even Delver decks are becoming more successful when trading their reactive cards for more threats. It's not an either/or, it's a gradual shift. My list, running 20 lands, Tar Pit, Loothouse, 4x AV, and 12 counterspells is just objectively worse than ones running YP, extra burn, and extra attackers in the current Modern environment. In fact, the best shell might even be UR burn, running Delver, haste threats, lots of burn/probes/cantrips, and top out with Bedlam Reveler to Ancestral Recall into more gas. THAT is the kind of direction Delver decks are moving towards, NOT counterspells and grindy value plays.
Oh, sure the Guanzhou list that won in the GP was another "fast aggro deck". You are in the point where you are hysterical about Twin and spreading so many lies. '
ANOTHER AGGRO DECK WITH 2O MAINBOARD REACTIVE SPELLS PLUS ANOTHER 13 IN THE BOARD!
Not even remotely close to my point and a blatant misrepresentation of what I posted. Other people have already chimed in, but the fact that Delver decks are moving away from counterspells, and are instead running Young Pyromancer or even Swiftspear/Goblin Guide/Lava Spike tells me that even Delver decks are becoming more successful when trading their reactive cards for more threats. It's not an either/or, it's a gradual shift. My list, running 20 lands, Tar Pit, Loothouse, 4x AV, and 12 counterspells is just objectively worse than ones running YP, extra burn, and extra attackers in the current Modern environment. In fact, the best shell might even be UR burn, running Delver, haste threats, lots of burn/probes/cantrips, and top out with Bedlam Reveler to Ancestral Recall into more gas. THAT is the kind of direction Delver decks are moving towards, NOT counterspells and grindy value plays.
Yet it plays 2 Kolaghan's Command, a card that it's known to grind you to death with 4 snapcaster mages(and kill affinity which is not why he is chose it for obviously). UR Burn is an awful meta call and an awful deck. This deck is HIGHLY interactive still. In fact, it's maybe more interactive than the lists with only 1 kolaghan's command.
In addition, I will just agree with kathar and astonkucther who are just saying Grixis Control is a tier 2 deck. Well, I m doing well with it . Its still skill dependant.
That must be why it is seeing widespread success and a rise in meta share, right?
Also, I am saying that the trend, trajectory, slope, vector, whatever term you want to use to describe direction and rate of change for Delver decks, it is moving towards proactive and away from reactive. That doesn't mean it is not completely non-reactive, but the direction it is heading is NOT towards the controlling side.
The problem with every argument people put forth is that you can snag some specific time period and prove yourself right. When the delve cards got released, Grixis Control and Grixis Delver had huge meta percentages. Were they necessarily good? That's not really relevant, people were playing them and thus they had meta share. Then we can pick a different time period where the pros had some GP or some tournament to play in and they grabbed Twin for that tournament since they don't test the format and they've played that deck for years. It won, people jumped on it and it's meta share rose. So if we cite that meta, then "twin was dominant and pushed out other blue decks".
What's confusing to me is: other blue decks had their best match up against twin. Winrates of twin vs other midrange/control decks tended to range from about 48%-52%, meaning it was the most meaningful, decision impactful modern magic you could play. If you need to match up well and knew your deck, you could slide things in your favor and felt like you won skillful games of magic. With that axis of modern gone, why would you play a midrange/control Ux deck when your counterspells are too slow and your removal is too situational?
The other argument here that confuses me is why people seem to forget that the injection of new cards is also adapting this meta. Jeskai has a 4-5% meta share? Sure, because Nahiri, not specifically because twin is gone. Would Jeskai Nahiri exist in a twin meta? Yes. Would twin play Nahiri? Maybe, but Jeskai twin was historically the worst version of Twin, so I don't think we'd see those two archetypes meld entirely into one. The key point here is: we can't know. We can't know because the cards available now are different than they were then. You can't simply say "well if twin was here, we wouldn't have Jeskai" because you don't know how these new cards would have shaped the meta.
The third fact that seems to be left out of arguments is modern is expensive, and people can't simply switch archetypes on a whim. Do you think that guy who spent a 100 dollars a pop on Scalding Tarns for his Jeskai Control deck after Shaun Mclaren won a pro tour is eager to abandon his jeskai deck simply because it's "tier 2" and snag up 25 dollar mishra's baubles to play a style of deck his doesn't enjoy? I doubt it. So he's contributing to the meta share of Jeskai, or Grixis or Esper or whatever deck said person bought into and doesn't have the finances or desire to switch archetypes. Does that mean these archetypes are actually efficient or effective in the format? Absolutely not, but they contribute to meta share so ideally you'd take those numbers with a grain of salt.
Oh, sure the Guanzhou list that won in the GP was another "fast aggro deck". You are in the point where you are hysterical about Twin and spreading so many lies. '
ANOTHER AGGRO DECK WITH 2O MAINBOARD REACTIVE SPELLS PLUS ANOTHER 13 IN THE BOARD!
Not even remotely close to my point and a blatant misrepresentation of what I posted. Other people have already chimed in, but the fact that Delver decks are moving away from counterspells, and are instead running Young Pyromancer or even Swiftspear/Goblin Guide/Lava Spike tells me that even Delver decks are becoming more successful when trading their reactive cards for more threats. It's not an either/or, it's a gradual shift. My list, running 20 lands, Tar Pit, Loothouse, 4x AV, and 12 counterspells is just objectively worse than ones running YP, extra burn, and extra attackers in the current Modern environment. In fact, the best shell might even be UR burn, running Delver, haste threats, lots of burn/probes/cantrips, and top out with Bedlam Reveler to Ancestral Recall into more gas. THAT is the kind of direction Delver decks are moving towards, NOT counterspells and grindy value plays.
Yet it plays 2 Kolaghan's Command, a card that it's known to grind you to death with 4 snapcaster mages(and kill affinity which is not why he is chose it for obviously). UR Burn is an awful meta call and an awful deck. This deck is HIGHLY interactive still. In fact, it's maybe more interactive than the lists with only 1 kolaghan's command.
In addition, I will just agree with kathar and astonkucther who are just saying Grixis Control is a tier 2 deck. Well, I m doing well with it . Its still skill dependant.
That must be why it is seeing widespread success and a rise in meta share, right?
Also, I am saying that the trend, trajectory, slope, vector, whatever term you want to use to describe direction and rate of change for Delver decks, it is moving towards proactive and away from reactive. That doesn't mean it is not completely non-reactive, but the direction it is heading is NOT towards the controlling side.
Totally wrong on this one(?). Don't try to interpret a deck from a man that went on to beat a GP. He thought this deck stood a chance to win or maybe he even liked it much. It could easily have 4 AV's in the sideboard and 3 more mana leaks instead of YP and still could easily have won. Grixis deck is not becoming nothing, Grixis deck is here to stay(as a tier 2 deck-I never claimed it IS a clear tier 1 deck).
And yet, he didn't. And in fact only 1 deck out of all 24 top 8 decks that weekend ran any copies of AV at all, and that deck only ran 3. If AV Delver is the way to go, why isn't it seeing any success? Maybe because it's not very good right now? Did you notice that 0 decks in the entire top 32 at SCG this past weekend ran AV? You claim that it can win and it can be great, yet there's absolutely nothing to back that up. Hell, both Nahiri decks ditched AV entirely, and one ran a FULL PLAYSET of Geist of Saint Traft in the main deck! (the other ran 3 in the side). Clearly, proactive attacking is more important than late-game value and grinding. Lastly, you are using the term "grixis" as if it is a single and unified deck, completely disregarding that "grixis" is at least two distinctly different decks (Control and Delver) as well as other smaller variants like Goryos. You are grasping at straws to make a point that holds no ground.
Ok, where is my replacement for Summer Bloom? I can't kill people on turn 1 anymore, is there a replacement for that? Where is my Second Sunrise replacement? Is that a deck anymore? Where's my I win button that costs 2RR? Pretty sure that deck is also non-existant. Those decks are dead as far as I am concerned.
AV a good card? Want to know how many copies of AV were in the top 32 of the SCG Open? A big FAT ZERO. If your claim was true, we should have seen some copies of AV in the top 32 right? But reality shows that it isn't and this is the "world we live in" and I don't know anyone who is willing to live with 1-3 years of losing a lot in Modern with reactive strategies just to "hope" WOTC will print new cards to help reactive blue decks.
It continues to amaze me how so many users are unable to engage in discussions about metagame health on this board without becoming furious and hostile. Questions like "are you deliberately missing the point of these comments?" are just mean. If I were deliberately missing the point, would I even admit to it? This kind of language never engenders productive conversation; it's used to shame and bully other users and it's confusing to me why it's even allowed on MTGS at all. I'm happy to talk about Modern because I love talking about Modern. But I expect the people I'm talking with to have some minimal amount of decency and respect.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
- Amulet Titan just got 9th at the triple GP weekend, so maybe the deck is not dead but nobody cares to take the time to develop stuff?
- For turn one decks, there are several decks capable of doing so, even more consistent than Amulet Bloom (which needed the perfect 7)
- Second Breakfast, the deck is still playable but not in the classic version. It either runs BTL or KCI for more consistency, but than again, if only a couple of people are playing it, how should it show results?
- Just got printed (just different mana cost). Also, the I-win button required another 2U card which pushes it to 7 Mana split up in two turns. For this there are several decks which can just win from this position (Ritual Gifts can with a single card for 4 mana untap win).
Dead? Maybe. Dead cause nobody dares to test and improves them? Totally.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: This just shouts to me as a big mimimi. I lost three decks (Ritual Gifts, Kiki Pod and BUG Delver) so far in Modern and I always recovered from it by adapting the deck and got a less powerful deck (welp, there was a reason why the card got banned). The unwillingness to adapt is the biggest reason, why I hate the Modern community so much.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
UBR TES
UBR TNT
GB Dredge
(does it have led? then I probably have played it.)
UBWR Ad nauseam
GW Hatebears
I phrased it that way because your "examples" conveniently neglected to mention the only deck that is at the focus of frustration caused by these bans without any suitable choice for previous players to gravitate to. Jeskai Nahiri is a joke, a flash in the pan that has done nothing but fall since its inaugural weekend. UW control isn't even Tier 2.
Maybe former Twin players are "furious and hostile," as you say, because not only has there been no suitable replacement for the deck, it has produced the OPPOSITE effect set out by the ban itself. It was supposed to make blue better and instead has only made it worse. Even with two targeted apology unbans, blue reactivate decks have essentially disappeared.
And on top of it all, when people who made the argument nearly a year ago that banning Twin would result in an explosion of linear decks, we were mocked and insulted; labeled as a bunch of whining complainers who have nothing better to do than cry about losing their pet deck. Now we get to say I told you so, and we're still mocked and insulted.
Banning Twin is possibly the worst thing Wizards could have done and the format is considerably worse off because of it. We collectively praised 2015 as one of the best, healthiest, most fun and diverse year Modern had ever had. Now, in 2016, it has been nothing but complaints and frustrations all year long. From Eldrazi Winter to "the situation" we have now, 2016 has been several steps backwards. And that first step was removing the only Tier 1 control deck that served to keep the format in check while NEVER representing an oppressive hold on the meta.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
URx control decks (Jeskai and Grixis) combine for a 6% metagame share. UWx control decks combine for a 4% metagame share. Before the Twin ban, this 10% of the metagame was made up of Twin decks, and there were no other viable blue-based midrange decks in the format.
You can check the numbers yourself if you don't believe me, but really I think you should check them before making false claims that are so easily debunked. Otherwise it really hurts the credibility of your argument. http://www.mtgtop8.com/format?f=MO
If you're interested in more holistic data, MN's Top Decks page lists Jeskai Control at 5.2% (firmly Tier 1), with Esper, UW, Grixis, and Blue Moon all in Tier 3. How was Jeskai Nahiri a "flash in the pan" if it's still a top-tier archetype?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
That Nexus data is nearly 2 months old, and KT himself has said that the next update will reflect a very bleak picture of the format, including Jeskai falling handily out of Tier 1 (because it is not a strong deck).
Also, by ignoring the rest of my post, shall I assume you just agree?
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Because if I don't express my point with "frustration" you will say that there is nothing wrong and ignore the problem, which is why attacking someone personally is the only way to get a point across. Like if we tried to present this information to you nicely, you're gonna say "nothing's wrong" but no you're brushing away the frustration which leads to these personal attacks. If someone has glasses on that show Modern is sunshine and rainbows, telling them nicely that there is something wrong isn't going to get their attention, you have to be extremely forceful in your approach and that involves attacking said person in such a way that they cannot ignore it.
While I'm hesitant to use the "hate" word, I pretty much share Kathal's viewpoint that most frustration in this format comes from lazy players who are unwilling to adapt to format change. Modern is a format that, by its very nature, is prone to change. (While one stated goal of the format is to have a relatively stable pool of decks, we have seen now that in practice it changes quite frequently between new introductions via Standard sets and diversity bans.) I have not seen this issue present among competent brewers or players who devote lots of time to learning Modern's subtleties (Jeff Hoogland, Kevin Jones, Eli Kassis, Joe Losset, etc.).
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
decks playing:
none
I play grixis ALOT And it certainly doesn't feel tier 2 to me.
decks playing:
none
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Grixis what? Delver is decent. Though nowhere near Tier 1, I'd say it's middle Tier 2. Control, like the one trying to play 4 drops like Cryptic, Kalitas, P&K, etc, are trash and mostly unplayable in a Turn 3.5 format. They suffer all the same problems Delver does, but also suffers from lack of a quick clock. It's trying to play a Jund-like game, but all their power cards cost 3-4 mana and not 2 mana (like Scooze, Goyf, Bob, etc).
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
Just looked it up in the spread sheet. As long as it is correct (should be, since it should still use the same methods as you used them), Jeskai Nahiri is currently at 4.2% metagame share and has a Score of 8, which is just within tier 1.
I do not know, from where you got your last paragraph but it is simply not true. The whining done by the Modern community is such a big problem, that regardless of which result the tournament(s) show, people will whine, cause it is not X/Y/Z.
For me, 2015 was the worst year of Modern, I loved modern back in the days between Avacan Resorted and RTR, the best 6 months Modern I could ever enjoy. In tier 1 we had back then 1 Midrange deck (Jund), 1 Control deck (Jeskai Control), 1 Tempo deck (UWR Delver), 1 Combo/value deck (Kiki Pod) and one dedicated combo deck (Storm) while the tier 2 decks were only marginally worse than the tier 1 decks.
THOSE 6 months I want back, not that boring 2015 metagame. Heck, I even preferred Eldrazi Winter over 2015 metagame and that says a lot.
It took me 1 year to get the Shoal Griselbanned deck running and functioning, it took me roughly the same amount of time to get Counter Cat remotely playable (thanks again @Ashton for the great work you put in there ^^ ) and it took me 2 years to finally find a good Ritual Gifts list again WHILE I KNOW, that I have at least 1 year of work before me to get it where I want.
What most people I know understand with: "I tried everything but nothing works" is, that they create a list, test it a couple of games, change stuff again, test again, change stuff again test again and than say: "Nope, doesn't work". The big problem with such an approach is, that you need to get first a feeling WHAT is wrong. By doing a couple of quick matches you won't get the feeling. You need to grind those problems out, make changes, test again, analyse and than maybe revert back, cause you went into the wrong direction.
To properly test a new brew (or version of an already existing deck) you need to do A LOT of games before even changing a single card, we are talking about several dozens here. THAN you exactly know, where the problems are and how to fix them. Than you come up with a solution, implement it, test it again vs the gauntlet decks you have, analyse it, change it again and repeat this several iteration before you can finally say: "That deck sucks because of reason X/Y/Z" or "It works, but has some small problems, which we might be able to fix."
Yes, it takes a lot of time, but this is exactly the reason, why so few new decks are cropping up in Modern, since brewing and developing decks take just soooooooo long.
Hence, when somebody comes with: "I tried everything but nothing works" I can just shake my head, since I exactly know, how they "tested" it.
The initial statement was: The Twin ban was bad cause now Uxx sucks.
Wizard stated with the Twin ban, that this is mostly done to enable other URx strategies, since you have no reason to run those, if the best strategy is Twin. Yes, they succeeded with this. The former URx Twin metagame share is now spread up in multiple different strategies, be it Jeskai Nahiri, UW Midrange/Control, Esper Control, or even Uxx Delver.
So yes, for this statement, you can simply group all those Uxx decks together.
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Totally agree here.
In 2015 metagame I said, that Grixis Delver is by far the worst Grixis deck, since the format is so slow, that you do not need the early pressure. Now, in a more linear metagame, you want those turn 1/2 Delver/Tasigur to get a early clock going. Hence, my opinion shifted from: "Grixis Control is the best Grixis deck" towards "Grixis Delver is the best one, since it can play a decent value game vs Midrange but is aggressive enough to threaten linear strategies".
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I don't know how many people agree with you on that. Many posts, articles, and the general feel from players all last year were praising the format for how healthy it was. There were several clear Tier 1 decks that represented aggro, combo, control, and midrange, in addition to dozens of lower-tier decks that had several moments in the spotlight. It allowed a clear metagame for the top decks spread across all archetype styles and allowed for rogue decks to make their mark from time to time if making the right meta call.
So it is better for all blue decks to be weak and poor in the format, compared to those same weak and poor decks being weak and poor, but people have the option to also play a good deck?
Banning a good deck doesn't do anything to help decks which struggle on a fundamental level, and this year has proven that week after week, month after month this past year. Esper and UW are <1% with no notable performances, Jeskai Nahiri is falling every update, and Delver is treading water as it moves away from reaction and towards being just another fast aggro deck.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That's not what they said, and what they said did not merit your response. I think if you're going to accuse people of being hysterical you should perhaps consider looking back at some of your recent posts.
Delver has been moving away from the reactive counter magic plan. We've even seen some lists toy around with playing Lava Spike and Goblin Guide. Delver is one of the most pro-active of the base-blue strategies (second only to Merfolk) and even "T1 Delver, T2 hold up Remand" can be too slow (and low impact) for this meta. I think it's reasonable to say that's suboptimal.
Not even remotely close to my point and a blatant misrepresentation of what I posted. Other people have already chimed in, but the fact that Delver decks are moving away from counterspells, and are instead running Young Pyromancer or even Swiftspear/Goblin Guide/Lava Spike tells me that even Delver decks are becoming more successful when trading their reactive cards for more threats. It's not an either/or, it's a gradual shift. My list, running 20 lands, Tar Pit, Loothouse, 4x AV, and 12 counterspells is just objectively worse than ones running YP, extra burn, and extra attackers in the current Modern environment. In fact, the best shell might even be UR burn, running Delver, haste threats, lots of burn/probes/cantrips, and top out with Bedlam Reveler to Ancestral Recall into more gas. THAT is the kind of direction Delver decks are moving towards, NOT counterspells and grindy value plays.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
That must be why it is seeing widespread success and a rise in meta share, right?
Also, I am saying that the trend, trajectory, slope, vector, whatever term you want to use to describe direction and rate of change for Delver decks, it is moving towards proactive and away from reactive. That doesn't mean it is not completely non-reactive, but the direction it is heading is NOT towards the controlling side.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
What's confusing to me is: other blue decks had their best match up against twin. Winrates of twin vs other midrange/control decks tended to range from about 48%-52%, meaning it was the most meaningful, decision impactful modern magic you could play. If you need to match up well and knew your deck, you could slide things in your favor and felt like you won skillful games of magic. With that axis of modern gone, why would you play a midrange/control Ux deck when your counterspells are too slow and your removal is too situational?
The other argument here that confuses me is why people seem to forget that the injection of new cards is also adapting this meta. Jeskai has a 4-5% meta share? Sure, because Nahiri, not specifically because twin is gone. Would Jeskai Nahiri exist in a twin meta? Yes. Would twin play Nahiri? Maybe, but Jeskai twin was historically the worst version of Twin, so I don't think we'd see those two archetypes meld entirely into one. The key point here is: we can't know. We can't know because the cards available now are different than they were then. You can't simply say "well if twin was here, we wouldn't have Jeskai" because you don't know how these new cards would have shaped the meta.
The third fact that seems to be left out of arguments is modern is expensive, and people can't simply switch archetypes on a whim. Do you think that guy who spent a 100 dollars a pop on Scalding Tarns for his Jeskai Control deck after Shaun Mclaren won a pro tour is eager to abandon his jeskai deck simply because it's "tier 2" and snag up 25 dollar mishra's baubles to play a style of deck his doesn't enjoy? I doubt it. So he's contributing to the meta share of Jeskai, or Grixis or Esper or whatever deck said person bought into and doesn't have the finances or desire to switch archetypes. Does that mean these archetypes are actually efficient or effective in the format? Absolutely not, but they contribute to meta share so ideally you'd take those numbers with a grain of salt.
And yet, he didn't. And in fact only 1 deck out of all 24 top 8 decks that weekend ran any copies of AV at all, and that deck only ran 3. If AV Delver is the way to go, why isn't it seeing any success? Maybe because it's not very good right now? Did you notice that 0 decks in the entire top 32 at SCG this past weekend ran AV? You claim that it can win and it can be great, yet there's absolutely nothing to back that up. Hell, both Nahiri decks ditched AV entirely, and one ran a FULL PLAYSET of Geist of Saint Traft in the main deck! (the other ran 3 in the side). Clearly, proactive attacking is more important than late-game value and grinding. Lastly, you are using the term "grixis" as if it is a single and unified deck, completely disregarding that "grixis" is at least two distinctly different decks (Control and Delver) as well as other smaller variants like Goryos. You are grasping at straws to make a point that holds no ground.
UR ....... WUBR ........... WB ............. RGW ........ UBR ....... WUB .... BGU
Spells / Blink & Combo / Token Grind / Dino Tribal / Draw Cards / Zombies / Reanimate
decks playing:
none