Jund has done the same thing with lightning bolt for years. I'll accept good arguments against the card but the fact that it makes an old decklist bad and some decks will splash for it are not good arguments. BG isn't dead just stop playing an old 75. Decay goyf lilli and thoughtseize are still grossly powerful magic cards.
Congratulations, you just inadvertently showed why Treasure Cruise is detrimental to the format like Deathrite Shaman was.
Did it make old deck lists obsolete? Ohh boy did it ever! Was it splashed into decks that had no business running ( Cough*Burn*Cough ) it? Well, at least Burn had other uses for that Black mana.
At least this thread is amusing enough to read, now all those disgruntled Delver players that sat through the BGx years finally had a taste of success and are now desperately trying to hold on to something completely unhealthy for the format.
I'm going to laugh myself silly if wizards decides to blindside everyone with the next update. TC remains legal, delver is now banned in all formats. No that will never happen (and shouldn't) but good god what I would give just to watch people puke themselves inside out over that for the next six months.
I would probably have to call in sick because I would be unable to contain my laughter.
...
At least this thread is amusing enough to read, now all those disgruntled Delver players that sat through the BGx years finally had a taste of success and are now desperately trying to hold on to something completely unhealthy for the format.
...
You mean just like all those disgruntled Jund players now coming pitchfork and torch (or bolt) in hand trying to eliminate Burn and Delver out of contention?
...
At least this thread is amusing enough to read, now all those disgruntled Delver players that sat through the BGx years finally had a taste of success and are now desperately trying to hold on to something completely unhealthy for the format.
...
You mean just like all those disgruntled Jund players now coming pitchfork and torch (or bolt) in hand trying to eliminate Burn and Delver out of contention?
I won't speak for other people, but I will say that on my end, the only thing that worries me are the number. It's true that GP Madrid might turn things around and put a brake on the seemingly unstoppable rise of Delver and Burn in both paper and MTGO events. If it does, we will need to reassess. If it does not, we will be in a really troubling spot.
...
At least this thread is amusing enough to read, now all those disgruntled Delver players that sat through the BGx years finally had a taste of success and are now desperately trying to hold on to something completely unhealthy for the format.
...
You mean just like all those disgruntled Jund players now coming pitchfork and torch (or bolt) in hand trying to eliminate Burn and Delver out of contention?
I'm an affinity player... and even I think TC is bad for the format.
You mean just like all those disgruntled Jund players now coming pitchfork and torch (or bolt) in hand trying to eliminate Burn and Delver out of contention?
As for JA Combo it is important to note that Delver and Burn are natural predators to the deck. So any hate that gets thrown their way inadvertently makes JA combo stronger. Whether that is enough to make it leap into the meta is debatable, but w/e.
Also JA, while having no noticeable impact thus far, still breaks the "fundamental turn 4 rule" which was arbitrarily set down some time ago.
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I'm going to laugh myself silly if wizards decides to blindside everyone with the next update. TC remains legal, delver is now banned in all formats. No that will never happen (and shouldn't) but good god what I would give just to watch people puke themselves inside out over that for the next six months.
Thankfuly, Wizards loves undercosted beaters and hates good spells so that will never happen. What is more likely (and more laughable) is a double Lighting Bolt Serum Visions ban to hurt Burn and Delver. I know that that would never happen, but I would love to see everyone's reactions if it did.
As for JA Combo it is important to note that Delver and Burn are natural predators to the deck. So any hate that gets thrown their way inadvertently makes JA combo stronger. Whether that is enough to make it leap into the meta is debatable, but w/e.
Also JA, while having no noticeable impact thus far, still breaks the "fundamental turn 4 rule" which was arbitrarily set down some time ago.
In a goldfish scenario, both Infect and Griselbrand Reanimator break that rule. And yet, neither deck has received a ban (Shoal Infect doesn't count) since the format started. Why? Because for a deck to be banned, it must be both consistently violating the turn 4 rule AND be top-tier. Just because a deck can theoretically win on turn 2-3 (Infect does so in about 40% of goldfish tests), that doesn't mean crap about its ability to do this in real games. So until JA starts putting up results, it doesn't matter that it is hypothetically too fast.
.I fear that in the end they will be banned treasure cruise for a number of reasons, not least because even burn playing TC (as happened with deathrite shaman). But I can not see TC as devastating as you say.
When the format begins to revolve around a single card, there are issues.
In the last open 22/23 of the the top 32 decks either played TC/DTT, or were built to specifically counter those type of decks (aka aggro -- boggles, infect, affinity, etc.)
AGGRO EVERYWHERE. 6/8 in the T8. 4-6/8 in the T16 (depending if you say UR Delver is "aggro" or "tempo"). I really like the RUG Midrange deck; that is exactly the sort of metagame adaptation that we want to look for. Still a boatload of TC and Burn though. GP Madrid, please hurry up!
You know what I see from this info? That affinity is still great. 2 in the top 8, 4 in the top 16. Why? They aren't using TC, DTT, or JA. What did that deck gain? Ghostfire Blade and Dispatch? Neither of those are even playable outside an affinity or Tezzeret list. Burn was good before as evidenced by the Kobe finish. Delver got the biggest boost from TC, but it also switched up from a tempo build to an aggro-burn build, getting a lot closer to burn/RDW design. So now you have to ask if it's the addition of TC that "broke" the format or did the redesign of the decks do it?
I think most of the change in meta % is due to the fact that people already had burn or delver decks built, and TC and Swiftspear are cheap enough to drop in and do well. This is the classic switch in meta to paper so we can beat rock. Soon people will switch to scissors to beat paper.
What this all comes down to is whether TC, DTT, and JA are overpowered enough to be banned. Is JA more broken than Birthing Pod? Each only create a single archetype deck, and pod has certainly demonstrated itself to be dominant and resilient. Way more than JA so far. Pod is going nowhere, and its pilots are already tuning it for the new meta. TC and DTT actually compete head to head for their decks to win, TC for the "fill my hand" crowd, DTT for the precision "I need combo pieces/answer to a problem" crew. Maybe they fill diverse enough needs for both to stay. No deck is running full playsets of both TC and DTT (that I'm aware of).
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AGGRO EVERYWHERE. 6/8 in the T8. 4-6/8 in the T16 (depending if you say UR Delver is "aggro" or "tempo"). I really like the RUG Midrange deck; that is exactly the sort of metagame adaptation that we want to look for. Still a boatload of TC and Burn though. GP Madrid, please hurry up!
You know what I see from this info? That affinity is still great. 2 in the top 8, 4 in the top 16. Why? They aren't using TC, DTT, or JA. What did that deck gain? Ghostfire Blade and Dispatch? Neither of those are even playable outside an affinity or Tezzeret list. Burn was good before as evidenced by the Kobe finish. Delver got the biggest boost from TC, but it also switched up from a tempo build to an aggro-burn build, getting a lot closer to burn/RDW design. So now you have to ask if it's the addition of TC that "broke" the format or did the redesign of the decks do it?
I think most of the change in meta % is due to the fact that people already had burn or delver decks built, and TC and Swiftspear are cheap enough to drop in and do well. This is the classic switch in meta to paper so we can beat rock. Soon people will switch to scissors to beat paper.
What this all comes down to is whether TC, DTT, and JA are overpowered enough to be banned. Is JA more broken than Birthing Pod? Each only create a single archetype deck, and pod has certainly demonstrated itself to be dominant and resilient. Way more than JA so far. Pod is going nowhere, and its pilots are already tuning it for the new meta. TC and DTT actually compete head to head for their decks to win, TC for the "fill my hand" crowd, DTT for the precision "I need combo pieces/answer to a problem" crew. Maybe they fill diverse enough needs for both to stay. No deck is running full playsets of both TC and DTT (that I'm aware of).
Affinity can kill before an opponent can capitalize on TC. Hence why there was two in the top 8.
When a card either requires you to use it OR have a deck that doesn't care about it... it is indeed format warping.
When the format begins to revolve around a single card, there are issues.
In the last open 22/23 of the the top 32 decks either played TC/DTT, or were built to specifically counter those type of decks (aka aggro -- boggles, infect, affinity, etc.)
When the format begins to revolve around a single card, there are issues.
In the last open 22/23 of the the top 32 decks either played TC/DTT, or were built to specifically counter those type of decks (aka aggro -- boggles, infect, affinity, etc.)
AGGRO EVERYWHERE. 6/8 in the T8. 4-6/8 in the T16 (depending if you say UR Delver is "aggro" or "tempo"). I really like the RUG Midrange deck; that is exactly the sort of metagame adaptation that we want to look for. Still a boatload of TC and Burn though. GP Madrid, please hurry up!
You know what I see from this info? That affinity is still great. 2 in the top 8, 4 in the top 16. Why? They aren't using TC, DTT, or JA. What did that deck gain? Ghostfire Blade and Dispatch? Neither of those are even playable outside an affinity or Tezzeret list. Burn was good before as evidenced by the Kobe finish. Delver got the biggest boost from TC, but it also switched up from a tempo build to an aggro-burn build, getting a lot closer to burn/RDW design. So now you have to ask if it's the addition of TC that "broke" the format or did the redesign of the decks do it?
I think most of the change in meta % is due to the fact that people already had burn or delver decks built, and TC and Swiftspear are cheap enough to drop in and do well. This is the classic switch in meta to paper so we can beat rock. Soon people will switch to scissors to beat paper.
What this all comes down to is whether TC, DTT, and JA are overpowered enough to be banned. Is JA more broken than Birthing Pod? Each only create a single archetype deck, and pod has certainly demonstrated itself to be dominant and resilient. Way more than JA so far. Pod is going nowhere, and its pilots are already tuning it for the new meta. TC and DTT actually compete head to head for their decks to win, TC for the "fill my hand" crowd, DTT for the precision "I need combo pieces/answer to a problem" crew. Maybe they fill diverse enough needs for both to stay. No deck is running full playsets of both TC and DTT (that I'm aware of).
Affinity can kill before an opponent can capitalize on TC. Hence why there was two in the top 8.
When a card either requires you to use it OR have a deck that doesn't care about it... it is indeed format warping.
Then why are Splinter Twin or Birthing Pod not banned? Both require the same thing, don't care about it/have a response or use it. In fact Twin is one of those "resolve and win" cards. None of the three we're primarily discussing do that.
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Jund has done the same thing with lightning bolt for years. I'll accept good arguments against the card but the fact that it makes an old decklist bad and some decks will splash for it are not good arguments. BG isn't dead just stop playing an old 75. Decay goyf lilli and thoughtseize are still grossly powerful magic cards.
Congratulations, you just inadvertently showed why Treasure Cruise is detrimental to the format like Deathrite Shaman was.
Did it make old deck lists obsolete? Ohh boy did it ever! Was it splashed into decks that had no business running ( Cough*Burn*Cough ) it? Well, at least Burn had other uses for that Black mana.
At least this thread is amusing enough to read, now all those disgruntled Delver players that sat through the BGx years finally had a taste of success and are now desperately trying to hold on to something completely unhealthy for the format.
I'm going to laugh myself silly if wizards decides to blindside everyone with the next update. TC remains legal, delver is now banned in all formats. No that will never happen (and shouldn't) but good god what I would give just to watch people puke themselves inside out over that for the next six months.
I would probably have to call in sick because I would be unable to contain my laughter.
TC is not nearly as powerful or even as easy to splash as DRS. Cruise makes lists obsolete not entire archetypes. Also I'd like to make it clear I don't play delver or even treasure cruise..
I also described why brainstorm "should" be banned in legacy but the meta gets along fine. Drawing 3 cards is super powerful and also super FUN. If you cant run dig why wouldnt you splash for cruise? Why are people simply opposed to having that effect? Its not like it raises the cost of modern, its a common! If you're sad that your BG goodstuff deck just became mediocrestuff, throw a watery grave in there, cut your bobs add some cruises and cast ancestral! Its awesome!
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When people call for a ban on treasure cruise: "But I don't WANNA draw 3 cards!"
AGGRO EVERYWHERE. 6/8 in the T8. 4-6/8 in the T16 (depending if you say UR Delver is "aggro" or "tempo"). I really like the RUG Midrange deck; that is exactly the sort of metagame adaptation that we want to look for. Still a boatload of TC and Burn though. GP Madrid, please hurry up!
You know what I see from this info? That affinity is still great. 2 in the top 8, 4 in the top 16. Why? They aren't using TC, DTT, or JA. What did that deck gain? Ghostfire Blade and Dispatch? Neither of those are even playable outside an affinity or Tezzeret list. Burn was good before as evidenced by the Kobe finish. Delver got the biggest boost from TC, but it also switched up from a tempo build to an aggro-burn build, getting a lot closer to burn/RDW design. So now you have to ask if it's the addition of TC that "broke" the format or did the redesign of the decks do it?
I think most of the change in meta % is due to the fact that people already had burn or delver decks built, and TC and Swiftspear are cheap enough to drop in and do well. This is the classic switch in meta to paper so we can beat rock. Soon people will switch to scissors to beat paper.
What this all comes down to is whether TC, DTT, and JA are overpowered enough to be banned. Is JA more broken than Birthing Pod? Each only create a single archetype deck, and pod has certainly demonstrated itself to be dominant and resilient. Way more than JA so far. Pod is going nowhere, and its pilots are already tuning it for the new meta. TC and DTT actually compete head to head for their decks to win, TC for the "fill my hand" crowd, DTT for the precision "I need combo pieces/answer to a problem" crew. Maybe they fill diverse enough needs for both to stay. No deck is running full playsets of both TC and DTT (that I'm aware of).
Affinity can kill before an opponent can capitalize on TC. Hence why there was two in the top 8.
When a card either requires you to use it OR have a deck that doesn't care about it... it is indeed format warping.
Then why are Splinter Twin or Birthing Pod not banned? Both require the same thing, don't care about it/have a response or use it. In fact Twin is one of those "resolve and win" cards. None of the three we're primarily discussing do that.
Because there exsists only two response to TC: play it yourself OR play a deck fast enough where it doesn't matter.
Citing Pod and Splinter-twin as a counter-argument is terrible logic, especially given that EVERY color has tools to stop those combos. on the flip side, not every color has a way to compete with the sheer draw-power of TC. So decks either have to run it or be fast enough where it doesn't matter. That is the problem.
EDIT: It also means that the only potential midrange decks that can develop must play blue. And that is exactly what we are seeing.
Hopefully nobody slept on this riotous top comment from that equally laughable Brian DeMars article:
Quote from Shaun Patrick · Top Commenter · RCP, IA Program at Pine Rest »
Amazing article and right on the money, especially about Modern. Unfortunately, you'll probably get a lot of pushback from players who don't take into account how design space works, but let's hope Wizards will make good decisions based on the health of the format and not a few clamoring voices.
Also, Deathrite should be unbanned in Modern along with Vision.
Nothing happening in Modern cannot be dealt with. Yeah, Treasure Cruise is insane! Want to beat Delver? Run some Volcanic Fallout or Pyroclasm. Want to beat Burn? Rung some effing Hallow or Feed the Clan or Dragon's Claw. It stupefies me how resistant Modern players are to innovating. Is it like this across all formats? At my meta last night, I 4-0'd with a brew packing 4 Cruise designed to stomp Delver, Burn, and everyone trying to do something else. All I heard all night from people playing with me and from people talking around me was how busted Treasure Cruise was, and how it ruined the format and needed a ban. I must have walked by 4 UR Delver mirror matches. The pilots are guys who were playing Junk or Pod three weeks ago. Just examine your meta and attack it! Oh my God! Even if it means more free wins for me, the tendency of Modern players everywhere to jump on a pro deck or start screaming about bans is absolutely sickening, and frankly they makes me embarrassed to even play this game. BURN IS NOT A HARD DECK TO BEAT. You don't see Legacy players whining about Dredge; you see them siding 4 Rest In Peace/Leyline/what have you and cleaning up. You don't see Dredge topping Legacy events, either, presumably because the players of that format are not babies who need a "pro" (most of which apparently don't even know how Modern works; wanting to ban Ascendancy? Seriously?) to innovate everything for them.
Rant over, or I guess after one more whiny complaint. What could I have expected from a thread that's advocated bans for Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf?
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
It's nowhere near as good as Ancestral Recall. People are very quick to mention its ability to draw three cards for U, but everyone seems to be ignoring the practical application of consistently being able to cast it on turn three or four. When you run a deck dedicated to it like U/R delver it means some of the cards you're drawing off Treasure Cruise are total garbage like Thought Scour and most of them are either lands or cantrips, neither of which do anything to further your strategy unless you have a Swiftspear or Pyromancer in play. Those cards are in fact that only reason you can get away with playing a deck that is 50% chaff; without those two creatures the deck does absolutely nothing. The fact that Treasure Cruise gets three cards is almost insignificant; the deck only needs to get one as long as they can ensure it's another cantrip to keep the chain going. Drawing three cards simply increases the odds of that. If Ponder or Preordain weren't already banned we'd have been having this delver discussion a long, long time ago.
Think about the decks that actually play Ancestral Recall. If you watched Eternal weekend recently you may remember some of the cards those decks are looking to draw off it: Black Lotus, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, Tolarian Academy, Time Walk, Yawgmoth's Will, etc. Think about the ideal Treasure Cruise for UR Delver: maybe something like Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions, Monastery Swiftspear. How can you even begin to compare those?
Context is everything. You cannot call Treasure Cruise an Ancestral Recall without looking at the context of a deck that can cast it as such. That deck is UR delver; a deck full of cards that are mostly not even considered powerful by Modern standards but happen to have excellent synergy. Cruise looks great when it's pumping up your Swiftspear, spitting out elemental tokens, and drawing you into more cantrips to keep the chain going. It doesn't look so good when you have two sitting in the opening hand of your BGWu deck that won't have seven cards to delve until turn ten. It doesn't even look good in delver when they don't have a Swiftspear or Pyro out to make the do-nothing half of their deck actually do something.
Everyone was terrified that every deck under the sun was going to be splashing for the card. If it was actually Ancestral Recall that certainly would have happened. It didn't though. UR delver has deluded everyone into thinking it's easy to consistently start Cruising on turn three or four, yet no other deck is pulling it off. No other deck is even trying.
Treasure Cruise is not Ancestral Recall. Can we please stop making this ridiculous comparison?
Treasure Cruise is not Ancestral Recall. Can we please stop making this ridiculous comparison?
It is comparable and probably better than Ancestral Vision though and that card is on the ban list.
So is Golgari Grave Troll. We've been over this countless times, Ancestral Visions was a questionable ban to begin with. It is not a sound argument.
In the end that won't matter.
Wizard apparently doesn't want Ancestral Visions in the format and TC is similar so they don't need any kind of numbers or anything to have a reason to ban TC because if AV doesn't fit their vision of the format than TC won't either. Especially because TC has even more applications/goes into more decks than AV.
It wouldn't surprise me either if any considerations or arguments for letting AV off the list are now void for a very long time as far as Wizards is concerned since TC has proven that releasing a powerful, blue draw spell can have tremendous impact on the format and is not a safe thing to do.
It's nowhere near as good as Ancestral Recall. People are very quick to mention its ability to draw three cards for U, but everyone seems to be ignoring the practical application of consistently being able to cast it on turn three or four. When you run a deck dedicated to it like U/R delver it means some of the cards you're drawing off Treasure Cruise are total garbage like Thought Scour and most of them are either lands or cantrips, neither of which do anything to further your strategy unless you have a Swiftspear or Pyromancer in play. Those cards are in fact that only reason you can get away with playing a deck that is 50% chaff; without those two creatures the deck does absolutely nothing. The fact that Treasure Cruise gets three cards is almost insignificant; the deck only needs to get one as long as they can ensure it's another cantrip to keep the chain going. Drawing three cards simply increases the odds of that. If Ponder or Preordain weren't already banned we'd have been having this delver discussion a long, long time ago.
Think about the decks that actually play Ancestral Recall. If you watched Eternal weekend recently you may remember some of the cards those decks are looking to draw off it: Black Lotus, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, Tolarian Academy, Time Walk, Yawgmoth's Will, etc. Think about the ideal Treasure Cruise for UR Delver: maybe something like Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions, Monastery Swiftspear. How can you even begin to compare those?
Context is everything. You cannot call Treasure Cruise an Ancestral Recall without looking at the context of a deck that can cast it as such. That deck is UR delver; a deck full of cards that are mostly not even considered powerful by Modern standards but happen to have excellent synergy. Cruise looks great when it's pumping up your Swiftspear, spitting out elemental tokens, and drawing you into more cantrips to keep the chain going. It doesn't look so good when you have two sitting in the opening hand of your BGWu deck that won't have seven cards to delve until turn ten. It doesn't even look good in delver when they don't have a Swiftspear or Pyro out to make the do-nothing half of their deck actually do something.
Everyone was terrified that every deck under the sun was going to be splashing for the card. If it was actually Ancestral Recall that certainly would have happened. It didn't though. UR delver has deluded everyone into thinking it's easy to consistently start Cruising on turn three or four, yet no other deck is pulling it off. No other deck is even trying.
Treasure Cruise is not Ancestral Recall. Can we please stop making this ridiculous comparison?
Not to correct you... but there was jund decks that splashed for TC.
Treasure Cruise is not Ancestral Recall. Can we please stop making this ridiculous comparison?
It is comparable and probably better than Ancestral Vision though and that card is on the ban list.
So is Golgari Grave Troll. We've been over this countless times, Ancestral Visions was a questionable ban to begin with. It is not a sound argument.
In the end that won't matter.
Wizard apparently doesn't want Ancestral Visions in the format and TC is similar so they don't need any kind of numbers or anything to have a reason to ban TC because if AV doesn't fit their vision of the format than TC won't either. Especially because TC has even more applications/goes into more decks than AV.
It wouldn't surprise me either if any considerations or arguments for letting AV off the list are now void for a very long time as far as Wizards is concerned since TC has proven that releasing a powerful, blue draw spell can have tremendous impact on the format and is not a safe thing to do.
Much easier to hate on TC than ancestral. I think a lot of people are seriously missing this. TC is perfectly acceptable for the format. Draw has been pathetic in modern for the longest time. The format needed this or something similar in power draw wise. And quite frankly I much prefer the new meta to the old. I find delver to be a FAR more enjoyable deck to play against than BGx. I rather play around counters and such than having my hand stripped any day.
Treasure Cruise is not Ancestral Recall. Can we please stop making this ridiculous comparison?
It is comparable and probably better than Ancestral Vision though and that card is on the ban list.
So is Golgari Grave Troll. We've been over this countless times, Ancestral Visions was a questionable ban to begin with. It is not a sound argument.
In the end that won't matter.
Wizard apparently doesn't want Ancestral Visions in the format and TC is similar so they don't need any kind of numbers or anything to have a reason to ban TC because if AV doesn't fit their vision of the format than TC won't either. Especially because TC has even more applications/goes into more decks than AV.
It wouldn't surprise me either if any considerations or arguments for letting AV off the list are now void for a very long time as far as Wizards is concerned since TC has proven that releasing a powerful, blue draw spell can have tremendous impact on the format and is not a safe thing to do.
Much easier to hate on TC than ancestral. I think a lot of people are seriously missing this. TC is perfectly acceptable for the format. Draw has been pathetic in modern for the longest time. The format needed this or something similar in power draw wise. And quite frankly I much prefer the new meta to the old. I find delver to be a FAR more enjoyable deck to play against than BGx. I rather play around counters and such than having my hand stripped any day.
I'm not sure I agree with the "much easier to hate". It falls squarely in the same category as AV. Also: Khans gave modern DTT. Although I'm inclined to agree with you that blue needed a better draw spell for modern, it did not need two. Personal preferences aside, it is not ok that card warps the format in a manner that TC has.
Treasure Cruise is not Ancestral Recall. Can we please stop making this ridiculous comparison?
It is comparable and probably better than Ancestral Vision though and that card is on the ban list.
So is Golgari Grave Troll. We've been over this countless times, Ancestral Visions was a questionable ban to begin with. It is not a sound argument.
In the end that won't matter.
Wizard apparently doesn't want Ancestral Visions in the format and TC is similar so they don't need any kind of numbers or anything to have a reason to ban TC because if AV doesn't fit their vision of the format than TC won't either. Especially because TC has even more applications/goes into more decks than AV.
It wouldn't surprise me either if any considerations or arguments for letting AV off the list are now void for a very long time as far as Wizards is concerned since TC has proven that releasing a powerful, blue draw spell can have tremendous impact on the format and is not a safe thing to do.
Much easier to hate on TC than ancestral. I think a lot of people are seriously missing this. TC is perfectly acceptable for the format. Draw has been pathetic in modern for the longest time. The format needed this or something similar in power draw wise. And quite frankly I much prefer the new meta to the old. I find delver to be a FAR more enjoyable deck to play against than BGx. I rather play around counters and such than having my hand stripped any day.
Im actually indifferent to it but as you may know I was on the side that stripped hands so that may have had something to do with it.
Anyway I think nobody should be surprised if TC gets the ban hammer in the future.
And as far as draw is concerned there is still Dig Through Time which is perfectly fine and acceptable. You can't play it in your Burn decks though and that's how it should be in my opinion.
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Congratulations, you just inadvertently showed why Treasure Cruise is detrimental to the format like Deathrite Shaman was.
Did it make old deck lists obsolete? Ohh boy did it ever! Was it splashed into decks that had no business running ( Cough*Burn*Cough ) it? Well, at least Burn had other uses for that Black mana.
At least this thread is amusing enough to read, now all those disgruntled Delver players that sat through the BGx years finally had a taste of success and are now desperately trying to hold on to something completely unhealthy for the format.
I would probably have to call in sick because I would be unable to contain my laughter.
You mean just like all those disgruntled Jund players now coming pitchfork and torch (or bolt) in hand trying to eliminate Burn and Delver out of contention?
I won't speak for other people, but I will say that on my end, the only thing that worries me are the number. It's true that GP Madrid might turn things around and put a brake on the seemingly unstoppable rise of Delver and Burn in both paper and MTGO events. If it does, we will need to reassess. If it does not, we will be in a really troubling spot.
I'm an affinity player... and even I think TC is bad for the format.
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Ohh, ohh, I see what you did there.
Also JA, while having no noticeable impact thus far, still breaks the "fundamental turn 4 rule" which was arbitrarily set down some time ago.
UWGSnow-Bant Control
BURGrixis Death's Shadow
GWBCoCo Elves
WCDeath and Taxes(sold)Thankfuly, Wizards loves undercosted beaters and hates good spells so that will never happen. What is more likely (and more laughable) is a double Lighting Bolt Serum Visions ban to hurt Burn and Delver. I know that that would never happen, but I would love to see everyone's reactions if it did.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
In a goldfish scenario, both Infect and Griselbrand Reanimator break that rule. And yet, neither deck has received a ban (Shoal Infect doesn't count) since the format started. Why? Because for a deck to be banned, it must be both consistently violating the turn 4 rule AND be top-tier. Just because a deck can theoretically win on turn 2-3 (Infect does so in about 40% of goldfish tests), that doesn't mean crap about its ability to do this in real games. So until JA starts putting up results, it doesn't matter that it is hypothetically too fast.
When the format begins to revolve around a single card, there are issues.
In the last open 22/23 of the the top 32 decks either played TC/DTT, or were built to specifically counter those type of decks (aka aggro -- boggles, infect, affinity, etc.)
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Modern: Affinity
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Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
You know what I see from this info? That affinity is still great. 2 in the top 8, 4 in the top 16. Why? They aren't using TC, DTT, or JA. What did that deck gain? Ghostfire Blade and Dispatch? Neither of those are even playable outside an affinity or Tezzeret list. Burn was good before as evidenced by the Kobe finish. Delver got the biggest boost from TC, but it also switched up from a tempo build to an aggro-burn build, getting a lot closer to burn/RDW design. So now you have to ask if it's the addition of TC that "broke" the format or did the redesign of the decks do it?
I think most of the change in meta % is due to the fact that people already had burn or delver decks built, and TC and Swiftspear are cheap enough to drop in and do well. This is the classic switch in meta to paper so we can beat rock. Soon people will switch to scissors to beat paper.
What this all comes down to is whether TC, DTT, and JA are overpowered enough to be banned. Is JA more broken than Birthing Pod? Each only create a single archetype deck, and pod has certainly demonstrated itself to be dominant and resilient. Way more than JA so far. Pod is going nowhere, and its pilots are already tuning it for the new meta. TC and DTT actually compete head to head for their decks to win, TC for the "fill my hand" crowd, DTT for the precision "I need combo pieces/answer to a problem" crew. Maybe they fill diverse enough needs for both to stay. No deck is running full playsets of both TC and DTT (that I'm aware of).
UB Tezzerator
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Legacy
RB Goblins
Affinity can kill before an opponent can capitalize on TC. Hence why there was two in the top 8.
When a card either requires you to use it OR have a deck that doesn't care about it... it is indeed format warping.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
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Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Now im curious, what was the 23rd deck?
Jund. There was one Jund deck in the top 32.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
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Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Then why are Splinter Twin or Birthing Pod not banned? Both require the same thing, don't care about it/have a response or use it. In fact Twin is one of those "resolve and win" cards. None of the three we're primarily discussing do that.
UB Tezzerator
UBW Gifts
B 8Rack
Legacy
RB Goblins
TC is not nearly as powerful or even as easy to splash as DRS. Cruise makes lists obsolete not entire archetypes. Also I'd like to make it clear I don't play delver or even treasure cruise..
I also described why brainstorm "should" be banned in legacy but the meta gets along fine. Drawing 3 cards is super powerful and also super FUN. If you cant run dig why wouldnt you splash for cruise? Why are people simply opposed to having that effect? Its not like it raises the cost of modern, its a common! If you're sad that your BG goodstuff deck just became mediocrestuff, throw a watery grave in there, cut your bobs add some cruises and cast ancestral! Its awesome!
Because there exsists only two response to TC: play it yourself OR play a deck fast enough where it doesn't matter.
Citing Pod and Splinter-twin as a counter-argument is terrible logic, especially given that EVERY color has tools to stop those combos. on the flip side, not every color has a way to compete with the sheer draw-power of TC. So decks either have to run it or be fast enough where it doesn't matter. That is the problem.
EDIT: It also means that the only potential midrange decks that can develop must play blue. And that is exactly what we are seeing.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Rant over, or I guess after one more whiny complaint. What could I have expected from a thread that's advocated bans for Abrupt Decay and Tarmogoyf?
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
Think about the decks that actually play Ancestral Recall. If you watched Eternal weekend recently you may remember some of the cards those decks are looking to draw off it: Black Lotus, Time Vault, Voltaic Key, Tolarian Academy, Time Walk, Yawgmoth's Will, etc. Think about the ideal Treasure Cruise for UR Delver: maybe something like Lightning Bolt, Serum Visions, Monastery Swiftspear. How can you even begin to compare those?
Context is everything. You cannot call Treasure Cruise an Ancestral Recall without looking at the context of a deck that can cast it as such. That deck is UR delver; a deck full of cards that are mostly not even considered powerful by Modern standards but happen to have excellent synergy. Cruise looks great when it's pumping up your Swiftspear, spitting out elemental tokens, and drawing you into more cantrips to keep the chain going. It doesn't look so good when you have two sitting in the opening hand of your BGWu deck that won't have seven cards to delve until turn ten. It doesn't even look good in delver when they don't have a Swiftspear or Pyro out to make the do-nothing half of their deck actually do something.
Everyone was terrified that every deck under the sun was going to be splashing for the card. If it was actually Ancestral Recall that certainly would have happened. It didn't though. UR delver has deluded everyone into thinking it's easy to consistently start Cruising on turn three or four, yet no other deck is pulling it off. No other deck is even trying.
Treasure Cruise is not Ancestral Recall. Can we please stop making this ridiculous comparison?
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
It is comparable and probably better than Ancestral Vision though and that card is on the ban list.
So is Golgari Grave Troll. We've been over this countless times, Ancestral Visions was a questionable ban to begin with. It is not a sound argument.
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
In the end that won't matter.
Wizard apparently doesn't want Ancestral Visions in the format and TC is similar so they don't need any kind of numbers or anything to have a reason to ban TC because if AV doesn't fit their vision of the format than TC won't either. Especially because TC has even more applications/goes into more decks than AV.
It wouldn't surprise me either if any considerations or arguments for letting AV off the list are now void for a very long time as far as Wizards is concerned since TC has proven that releasing a powerful, blue draw spell can have tremendous impact on the format and is not a safe thing to do.
Not to correct you... but there was jund decks that splashed for TC.
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
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Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Much easier to hate on TC than ancestral. I think a lot of people are seriously missing this. TC is perfectly acceptable for the format. Draw has been pathetic in modern for the longest time. The format needed this or something similar in power draw wise. And quite frankly I much prefer the new meta to the old. I find delver to be a FAR more enjoyable deck to play against than BGx. I rather play around counters and such than having my hand stripped any day.
I'm not sure I agree with the "much easier to hate". It falls squarely in the same category as AV. Also: Khans gave modern DTT. Although I'm inclined to agree with you that blue needed a better draw spell for modern, it did not need two. Personal preferences aside, it is not ok that card warps the format in a manner that TC has.
Twitter: twitter.com/axmanonline
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Current Decks
Modern: Affinity
Standard: BW Control
Legacy: Death and Taxes :symw::symr:
Vintage: NA
Im actually indifferent to it but as you may know I was on the side that stripped hands so that may have had something to do with it.
Anyway I think nobody should be surprised if TC gets the ban hammer in the future.
And as far as draw is concerned there is still Dig Through Time which is perfectly fine and acceptable. You can't play it in your Burn decks though and that's how it should be in my opinion.