If you don't onow why GGT is banned, then you never played against dredge in legacy... The card lets you dredge more than 10% of what is left in a single draw trigger. Faitess loothint gives you 2, so thats 12 cards in the bin for R. When it was banned in extended, dredge was very strong (with zealot kill) and topping every tournement...
I literally play Dredge in Legacy. Hence, my signature.
As others have pointed out, Dread Return is the problem here. GGT alone isn't breaking anything in Modern anytime soon.
Modern does have Bridge from Below, but I would love to see what a BUG dredge list with Bridge, GGT, and Treasure cruise in there, just to see what happens.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
Hypothetical question time. Suppose you're playing against an opponent. For some reason, he immediately concedes before even drawing his starting hand, and signs the match slip 0-2.
Will you complain that this guy didn't give you the experience you were looking for?
More realistic scenario. Suppose there's an odd number of players at the tournament and lucky you, you get a bye. Do you complain to the TO and force him to match you with someone?
I'd be annoyed. And I hate getting the bye.
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Things WotC cares about:
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
I sort of agree with stokpile, I'll explain with a personal story.
Kiki killed my dad.
But actually, I play 4c gifts--I know what hard decisions are, and how to dig yourself out of them. I don't go to time against any arch type no matter how slow, control mirrors, ect. I go to time against new players who have no idea what is going on and POD players all varieties, unreasonably often. We're doing ok, we're doing ok. They beat me game fairly quickly, game 2. Ok, game 2, we sideboard, I beat them down to 4 life, great, one swing with a colonnade, one more grave titan beat, whatever. All the sudden, it appears that NOW the pod chains get difficult. They tank now tank every play they make all the way back to ...12 life with dumb kitchen finks, resto blink chains, then try and combo me out assuming I'm out of removal (hint:never out of removal). Its rude, and its also irritating and judges should be called for the time tanking. My deck wins slow, theres only like three ways to actually win unless you scoop, and one of those ways is friggin spirit tokens. 2, 2,2 ,2 ,2 ok, thanks for previously thoughtseizing and fetching like nuts this way the spirits don't have you on a 10 turn clock.
And all the pod players are doing during this time, are checking to see if they have 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 drops and 1 to 2, or 2 to 3 drops. How hard is it to know to pod ANYTHING into a kitchen finks, sac finks for resto, gain 4, pod resto into angel/lark, and a 2 drop into feeder, or 1 drop into kill bear. Insane, they do it every time!
I really have experience with the junk/melira/angel pods, not so much kiki, but I've never played anyone on kiki who also wasn't a total beast, I'm sure the average player is infuriating. This isn't a ban pod rant, its a I hate seeing this deck and its doofie pilots apparently not know it well enough. I know it and I don't even play it, hurry the hell up!
This is how I feel every time I play against a control player and they spend a minute deciding which of two counterspells to use. In general Pod has a problem with pilots who don't know what they are doing, but every deck with a new pilot does the same. I've seen burn players get called for slow play before even.
And all the pod players are doing during this time, are checking to see if they have 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 drops and 1 to 2, or 2 to 3 drops. How hard is it to know to pod ANYTHING into a kitchen finks, sac finks for resto, gain 4, pod resto into angel/lark, and a 2 drop into feeder, or 1 drop into kill bear. Insane, they do it every time!
They need to check that they actually have the required targets in their deck.
If the game goes long you may have killed/discarded enough Angels that there's zero left in the deck. Of course it makes sense for the Pod player to check everything before saccing his Finks. I mean, you expect him to sac his Finks, look through his deck, eyes pop, look through deck again, not find an Angel, and realize he sacced Finks for nothing? Of course not, he's going to count how many Angels there are in his hand+graveyard+battlefield, then subtract that from the amount he registered on the decklist.
But I know the answer, and know 95% of the composition of his list...then he should too and shouldn't be taking that long. If I killed the angel, do you have an e-witt then? play a voice if no and if something in the grave will save you. Just hurry up, and figure out how to not draw the mirror.
I feel like DTT is going to be the stronger of the two delve cards in modern. The relative low power of deck manipulation combined with no efficient LD to keep filling the grave up just means that treasure cruise is too expensive to be relied on and the games become more dependent on finding your bombs.
For anyone here who watched Holiday play the deck last night, I hope you noticed just how clueless both the opponents and pilots are right now. Holiday made a bunch of misplays. His opponents made a metric ton of misplays. Neither Holiday's deck nor the sideboards of the other decks were optimized either. Between the lack of player knowledge regarding this deck, and the lack of optimization in the deck/opposing sideboards, it's just way too early to make any reasonable conclusions on the deck's power.
We have a GP coming up in November, and about 2 months of MTGO data before that. We also have a ton of small to midsize paper events in the intervening time. Let's just wait and see while we gather some actual evidence on the deck. I'm all for banning broken ***** in this format, but I also will do anything I can to play down the ban mania that has characterized Modern since its beginning. If the deck PROVES to be broken (through actual events, not kitchen table tests or practice room stomps) then hell yeah, let's ban that badboy. But let's not make wild conclusions from every tweet that crosses over-hyping pro channels. Pros have ban mania too; we've seen them advocate for the bannings of Twin, Kiki, Pod, Griselbrand, Manamorphose (Chapin will NEVER live that down), Electromancer, and about a dozen other cards. I still blame Wizards for introducing this ban mentality to the format (WHAT HAPPENED TO GOOD OLD SELF REGULATION), but it doesn't mean we can't do our part to try and stop it.
If you don't onow why GGT is banned, then you never played against dredge in legacy... The card lets you dredge more than 10% of what is left in a single draw trigger. Faitess loothint gives you 2, so thats 12 cards in the bin for R. When it was banned in extended, dredge was very strong (with zealot kill) and topping every tournement...
I've played against Dredge in Legacy. Lots. Which is exactly why I know Golgari Grave-Troll is an utter joke of a ban that has as much business being banned as Searing Spear.
I'm going to guess you never played against Dredge in Legacy, because if you did you'd realize that in a format without Lion's Eye Diamond, Ichorid, Dread Return, or even Cabal Therapy, Golgari Grave-Troll is completey innocuous.
If you don't onow why GGT is banned, then you never played against dredge in legacy... The card lets you dredge more than 10% of what is left in a single draw trigger. Faitess loothint gives you 2, so thats 12 cards in the bin for R. When it was banned in extended, dredge was very strong (with zealot kill) and topping every tournement...
I've played against Dredge in Legacy. Lots. Which is exactly why I know Golgari Grave-Troll is an utter joke of a ban that has as much business being banned as Searing Spear.
I'm going to guess you never played against Dredge in Legacy, because if you did you'd realize that in a format without Lion's Eye Diamond, Ichorid, Dread Return, or even Cabal Therapy, Golgari Grave-Troll is completey innocuous.
Said like someone who played Dredge only in Legacy. Like I have said multiple times Dredge was a deck long before it got big in Legacy.
If you don't onow why GGT is banned, then you never played against dredge in legacy... The card lets you dredge more than 10% of what is left in a single draw trigger. Faitess loothint gives you 2, so thats 12 cards in the bin for R. When it was banned in extended, dredge was very strong (with zealot kill) and topping every tournement...
I've played against Dredge in Legacy. Lots. Which is exactly why I know Golgari Grave-Troll is an utter joke of a ban that has as much business being banned as Searing Spear.
I'm going to guess you never played against Dredge in Legacy, because if you did you'd realize that in a format without Lion's Eye Diamond, Ichorid, Dread Return, or even Cabal Therapy, Golgari Grave-Troll is completey innocuous.
Said like someone who played Dredge only in Legacy. Like I have said multiple times Dredge was a deck long before it got big in Legacy.
In Standard and Extended it still relied on Dread Return. GGT is not broken without it.
If you don't onow why GGT is banned, then you never played against dredge in legacy... The card lets you dredge more than 10% of what is left in a single draw trigger. Faitess loothint gives you 2, so thats 12 cards in the bin for R. When it was banned in extended, dredge was very strong (with zealot kill) and topping every tournement...
I've played against Dredge in Legacy. Lots. Which is exactly why I know Golgari Grave-Troll is an utter joke of a ban that has as much business being banned as Searing Spear.
I'm going to guess you never played against Dredge in Legacy, because if you did you'd realize that in a format without Lion's Eye Diamond, Ichorid, Dread Return, or even Cabal Therapy, Golgari Grave-Troll is completey innocuous.
Said like someone who played Dredge only in Legacy. Like I have said multiple times Dredge was a deck long before it got big in Legacy.
And like we have said multiple times, what made Dredge a deck in Extended was Dread Return. No one is calling for a Dread Return unban.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I would also like to point out some user named ACG went 4-0 with Rakdos burn for like 4-5 days in a row. That doesn't always mean anything. It also depends on the opponents. He commented that he had 8 T3 kills (Not unheard of. There are decks that can win on T3.) 7 T4+ kills (This is when most decks usually win.) and only 1 T2 kill. So the T2 kill doesn't happen as often as people claim going by his data. That's not that bad.
Didn't wizards say they don't want decks that can consistently win on turn 3 or earlier? It's too early to call obviously but if the figures stay similar to this I'd say that a deck that is able to win on turn 3 or earlier more than half their games is too consistent.
Not to mention a turn 2 win on the play is just a joke. Great game of magic, land, dork, go - land go - kill you. It's not like there's force of will to stop broken stuff like this.
Didn't wizards say they don't want decks that can consistently win on turn 3 or earlier? It's too early to call obviously but if the figures stay similar to this I'd say that a deck that is able to win on turn 3 or earlier more than half their games is too consistent.
Not to mention a turn 2 win on the play is just a joke. Great game of magic, land, dork, go - land go - kill you. It's not like there's force of will to stop broken stuff like this.
Remember that wizards only tests Standard and Limited. They do not test Modern or other formats. So a Turn 3 combo win is discovered and developed by players, not Wizards
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Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming. Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Didn't wizards say they don't want decks that can consistently win on turn 3 or earlier? It's too early to call obviously but if the figures stay similar to this I'd say that a deck that is able to win on turn 3 or earlier more than half their games is too consistent.
Not to mention a turn 2 win on the play is just a joke. Great game of magic, land, dork, go - land go - kill you. It's not like there's force of will to stop broken stuff like this.
Infect can also win in this manner and infect, unless interrupted, will win on turn 3. It's still not a tier 1 deck nor is it unbeatable. This isn't some ascendency player defending it. I don't play combo at all. I play very fast and aggressive aggro style decks personally (Such as burn). However, I will say I do believe at some point something will be banned from this deck but I'm not worried.
Didn't wizards say they don't want decks that can consistently win on turn 3 or earlier? It's too early to call obviously but if the figures stay similar to this I'd say that a deck that is able to win on turn 3 or earlier more than half their games is too consistent.
Not to mention a turn 2 win on the play is just a joke. Great game of magic, land, dork, go - land go - kill you. It's not like there's force of will to stop broken stuff like this.
Remember that wizards only tests Standard and Limited. They do not test Modern or other formats. So a Turn 3 combo win is discovered and developed by players, not Wizards
There a source on that? Seems crazy to think thats the case...
EDIT: And yes, infect can kill that fast, with $5 worth of cards...
I would also like to point out some user named ACG went 4-0 with Rakdos burn for like 4-5 days in a row. That doesn't always mean anything. It also depends on the opponents. He commented that he had 8 T3 kills (Not unheard of. There are decks that can win on T3.) 7 T4+ kills (This is when most decks usually win.) and only 1 T2 kill. So the T2 kill doesn't happen as often as people claim going by his data. That's not that bad.
Just pointing out objective facts is all, not saying it should or should not be banned.
I have been watching the Nathan Holiday stream, and it is an impressive deck. Pretty boring to watch though. I do believe it is about the most uninteractive deck I have ever seen.
I would also like to point out some user named ACG went 4-0 with Rakdos burn for like 4-5 days in a row. That doesn't always mean anything. It also depends on the opponents. He commented that he had 8 T3 kills (Not unheard of. There are decks that can win on T3.) 7 T4+ kills (This is when most decks usually win.) and only 1 T2 kill. So the T2 kill doesn't happen as often as people claim going by his data. That's not that bad.
Just pointing out objective facts is all, not saying it should or should not be banned.
I have been watching the Nathan Holiday stream, and it is an impressive deck. Pretty boring to watch though. I do believe it is about the most uninteractive deck I have ever seen.
i tried today ascendacy combo in one game with cockatrice against burn.
first game i win the dice roll, in turn 2 i amde wish for ascendacy, but my opponent with a goblin guide on the battlefield casted eidolon. after two draws with no wish i lost
game two i was stucked in mana, and my opponent casted blood moon.
the deck will make the same end of griselband deck. no need for ban
I may as well tell you about the games I had in testing as Ascendancy Storm...
...I win against Living End pre-board through Beast Within on Jeskai Ascendancy, then Violent Outburst into Living End in response to my 2nd Ascendancy (the mana dork was still on the battlefield), then Violent Outburst into Living End when I resolve Wind Zendikon, tap the enchanted land, and cast a cantrip (the 2nd Ascendancy is still on the battlefield). I cast my second Wind Zendikon and combo off that same turn.
...I win against 4c Pod (Jund Pod splashing white) post-board through Birthing Pod (Wish into Wear // Teared), Linvala (Dreadbored--heck, I boarded Dreadbore in by mistake in hindsight), Exalted Birds of Paradise taking me down to 1 life (Pyrite Spellbombed), a second Pod into Qasali Pridemage (Wish into Ajani Vengeanted), a fizzle, and Path to Exile on the larger Wind Zendikon so I only got them down to 6 life. The remaining Zendikon and Ajani V got there the rest of the way. (I got lucky post-fizzle there!)
...I win against RG Tron pre-board through Turn 4 Karn Liberated (-3's two lands since he can't touch Sylvan Caryatid) and Oblivion Stone (Wish into Wear // Teared, it took out Caryatid in response, then I slam down another Caryatid).
Sure, all the pre-board games were against myself (the post-board games were against a real opponent who had seen Ascendancy Storm before and actually won the match--the games were great fun), but I tested against myself assuming the opponent has my number and will fight her hardest against Ascendancy Storm!
Yup, Eidolon of the Great Revel is probably the single strongest hate card against us, especially in the context of the Burn decks it's found in. I've won a couple of games in testing where I killed Eidolon and won, though! (Lightning Helix is in my Wishboard specifically for that bugger, and it's the single greatest reason why I maindeck 1 Pyrite Spellbomb.)
Blood Moon is a beating, especially if they can get rid of my mana dorks and counter Manamorphose. I need more testing against Moon, but probably my best strategy is to outrace the Moon.
Seeing as my results against blue decks (although UWR Control is still a mess) and BGx Midrange are getting better and better, Ascendancy Storm is looking increasingly Tier 1 instead of Tier 1.5 to me. Better hope lucky Burn players (especially Eidolon + Boros Charm players--I've lost every game where they protected Eidolon) and smart UWR and Twin players start hating us out.
I play UWR and Twin. I am assuming when I play against your deck I obviously bolt the bird, but then do I hold a counter for Caryatid? Or let Caryatid resolve and counter what you get off Wish? Or is Wish countered?
If in play, Waste Not can put a lot of pressure on the Ascendency player. You'll get mostly an army of 2/2 tokens and free mana, but if they get flooded with cantrips they'll start tossing them and get you to draw into other hate.
If in play, Waste Not can put a lot of pressure on the Ascendency player. You'll get mostly an army of 2/2 tokens and free mana, but if they get flooded with cantrips they'll start tossing them and get you to draw into other hate.
Unfortunately, "discard" doesn't mean the same thing as "play and put into a graveyard". As written on Waste Not, "discard" means to put from an opponent's graveyard, without being cast.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I literally play Dredge in Legacy. Hence, my signature.
As others have pointed out, Dread Return is the problem here. GGT alone isn't breaking anything in Modern anytime soon.
This. So much this.
Although I'd probably still run a 4 or 5 color deck. Primarily for Faithless Looting, Treasure Cruise, Gravecrawler, Lotleth Troll, and one or two Gnaw to the Bone.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I'd be annoyed. And I hate getting the bye.
-making certain Standard cards can be played in Modern, therefore increasing their value and increasing WotC's profit margin
Things WotC does not care about:
-keeping the ban list as short as possible
-taking chances with an entire format for the benefit of a single card
-catering to play styles that newer players generally don't like and will lose them more players than it will gain
-keeping the meta balanced between archetypes/colors/whatever
-keeping cards on the secondary market cheap (available yes, but not cheap)
-keeping the meta diverse (as long as a single deck doesn't threaten the popularity of the format)
Kiki killed my dad.
But actually, I play 4c gifts--I know what hard decisions are, and how to dig yourself out of them. I don't go to time against any arch type no matter how slow, control mirrors, ect. I go to time against new players who have no idea what is going on and POD players all varieties, unreasonably often. We're doing ok, we're doing ok. They beat me game fairly quickly, game 2. Ok, game 2, we sideboard, I beat them down to 4 life, great, one swing with a colonnade, one more grave titan beat, whatever. All the sudden, it appears that NOW the pod chains get difficult. They tank now tank every play they make all the way back to ...12 life with dumb kitchen finks, resto blink chains, then try and combo me out assuming I'm out of removal (hint:never out of removal). Its rude, and its also irritating and judges should be called for the time tanking. My deck wins slow, theres only like three ways to actually win unless you scoop, and one of those ways is friggin spirit tokens. 2, 2,2 ,2 ,2 ok, thanks for previously thoughtseizing and fetching like nuts this way the spirits don't have you on a 10 turn clock.
And all the pod players are doing during this time, are checking to see if they have 2 to 3 to 4 to 5 drops and 1 to 2, or 2 to 3 drops. How hard is it to know to pod ANYTHING into a kitchen finks, sac finks for resto, gain 4, pod resto into angel/lark, and a 2 drop into feeder, or 1 drop into kill bear. Insane, they do it every time!
I really have experience with the junk/melira/angel pods, not so much kiki, but I've never played anyone on kiki who also wasn't a total beast, I'm sure the average player is infuriating. This isn't a ban pod rant, its a I hate seeing this deck and its doofie pilots apparently not know it well enough. I know it and I don't even play it, hurry the hell up!
They need to check that they actually have the required targets in their deck.
If the game goes long you may have killed/discarded enough Angels that there's zero left in the deck. Of course it makes sense for the Pod player to check everything before saccing his Finks. I mean, you expect him to sac his Finks, look through his deck, eyes pop, look through deck again, not find an Angel, and realize he sacced Finks for nothing? Of course not, he's going to count how many Angels there are in his hand+graveyard+battlefield, then subtract that from the amount he registered on the decklist.
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Big Johnny.
https://twitter.com/Smdster/status/518001279508164608
BEGIN FRIDAY BAN MANIA!
For anyone here who watched Holiday play the deck last night, I hope you noticed just how clueless both the opponents and pilots are right now. Holiday made a bunch of misplays. His opponents made a metric ton of misplays. Neither Holiday's deck nor the sideboards of the other decks were optimized either. Between the lack of player knowledge regarding this deck, and the lack of optimization in the deck/opposing sideboards, it's just way too early to make any reasonable conclusions on the deck's power.
We have a GP coming up in November, and about 2 months of MTGO data before that. We also have a ton of small to midsize paper events in the intervening time. Let's just wait and see while we gather some actual evidence on the deck. I'm all for banning broken ***** in this format, but I also will do anything I can to play down the ban mania that has characterized Modern since its beginning. If the deck PROVES to be broken (through actual events, not kitchen table tests or practice room stomps) then hell yeah, let's ban that badboy. But let's not make wild conclusions from every tweet that crosses over-hyping pro channels. Pros have ban mania too; we've seen them advocate for the bannings of Twin, Kiki, Pod, Griselbrand, Manamorphose (Chapin will NEVER live that down), Electromancer, and about a dozen other cards. I still blame Wizards for introducing this ban mentality to the format (WHAT HAPPENED TO GOOD OLD SELF REGULATION), but it doesn't mean we can't do our part to try and stop it.
Ban mania. Not even once.
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Big Johnny.
I'm going to guess you never played against Dredge in Legacy, because if you did you'd realize that in a format without Lion's Eye Diamond, Ichorid, Dread Return, or even Cabal Therapy, Golgari Grave-Troll is completey innocuous.
Said like someone who played Dredge only in Legacy. Like I have said multiple times Dredge was a deck long before it got big in Legacy.
In Standard and Extended it still relied on Dread Return. GGT is not broken without it.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
And like we have said multiple times, what made Dredge a deck in Extended was Dread Return. No one is calling for a Dread Return unban.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
I would also like to point out some user named ACG went 4-0 with Rakdos burn for like 4-5 days in a row. That doesn't always mean anything. It also depends on the opponents. He commented that he had 8 T3 kills (Not unheard of. There are decks that can win on T3.) 7 T4+ kills (This is when most decks usually win.) and only 1 T2 kill. So the T2 kill doesn't happen as often as people claim going by his data. That's not that bad.
Not to mention a turn 2 win on the play is just a joke. Great game of magic, land, dork, go - land go - kill you. It's not like there's force of will to stop broken stuff like this.
Remember that wizards only tests Standard and Limited. They do not test Modern or other formats. So a Turn 3 combo win is discovered and developed by players, not Wizards
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
Infect can also win in this manner and infect, unless interrupted, will win on turn 3. It's still not a tier 1 deck nor is it unbeatable. This isn't some ascendency player defending it. I don't play combo at all. I play very fast and aggressive aggro style decks personally (Such as burn). However, I will say I do believe at some point something will be banned from this deck but I'm not worried.
There a source on that? Seems crazy to think thats the case...
EDIT: And yes, infect can kill that fast, with $5 worth of cards...
Spirits
Just pointing out objective facts is all, not saying it should or should not be banned.
I have been watching the Nathan Holiday stream, and it is an impressive deck. Pretty boring to watch though. I do believe it is about the most uninteractive deck I have ever seen.
I do agree there.
I may as well tell you about the games I had in testing as Ascendancy Storm...
...I win against Living End pre-board through Beast Within on Jeskai Ascendancy, then Violent Outburst into Living End in response to my 2nd Ascendancy (the mana dork was still on the battlefield), then Violent Outburst into Living End when I resolve Wind Zendikon, tap the enchanted land, and cast a cantrip (the 2nd Ascendancy is still on the battlefield). I cast my second Wind Zendikon and combo off that same turn.
...I win against 4c Pod (Jund Pod splashing white) post-board through Birthing Pod (Wish into Wear // Teared), Linvala (Dreadbored--heck, I boarded Dreadbore in by mistake in hindsight), Exalted Birds of Paradise taking me down to 1 life (Pyrite Spellbombed), a second Pod into Qasali Pridemage (Wish into Ajani Vengeanted), a fizzle, and Path to Exile on the larger Wind Zendikon so I only got them down to 6 life. The remaining Zendikon and Ajani V got there the rest of the way. (I got lucky post-fizzle there!)
...I win against RG Tron pre-board through Turn 4 Karn Liberated (-3's two lands since he can't touch Sylvan Caryatid) and Oblivion Stone (Wish into Wear // Teared, it took out Caryatid in response, then I slam down another Caryatid).
...I combo off on RG Tron pre-board on Turn 4 through Turn 2 Pyroclasm on Noble Hierarch and Turn 3 Relic of Progenitus on my 5-card graveyard. (Thanks, Caryatid!)
Sure, all the pre-board games were against myself (the post-board games were against a real opponent who had seen Ascendancy Storm before and actually won the match--the games were great fun), but I tested against myself assuming the opponent has my number and will fight her hardest against Ascendancy Storm!
Yup, Eidolon of the Great Revel is probably the single strongest hate card against us, especially in the context of the Burn decks it's found in. I've won a couple of games in testing where I killed Eidolon and won, though! (Lightning Helix is in my Wishboard specifically for that bugger, and it's the single greatest reason why I maindeck 1 Pyrite Spellbomb.)
Blood Moon is a beating, especially if they can get rid of my mana dorks and counter Manamorphose. I need more testing against Moon, but probably my best strategy is to outrace the Moon.
Seeing as my results against blue decks (although UWR Control is still a mess) and BGx Midrange are getting better and better, Ascendancy Storm is looking increasingly Tier 1 instead of Tier 1.5 to me. Better hope lucky Burn players (especially Eidolon + Boros Charm players--I've lost every game where they protected Eidolon) and smart UWR and Twin players start hating us out.
I am scared of this deck.
UR UR Storm UR
G Infect G
Legacy
RG Goblins RG
Commander
UBR Sedris, the Traitor King UBR
UR Niv-Mizzet, the Firemind UR
UR Jhoira of the Ghitu UR
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic WUB
G Omnath, Locus of Mana G
Unfortunately, "discard" doesn't mean the same thing as "play and put into a graveyard". As written on Waste Not, "discard" means to put from an opponent's graveyard, without being cast.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps