I'm happy with the announcement. I think Modern is very healthy currently, and I'm glad to see WOTC thinks so too.
If anything, I think we will see some unbans in January once they observe how the Onslaught fetches shake things up (I don't think there will be much 'shaking' at all).
I concur. Modern is healthy, so why ban/unban anything? I don't get this "it's boring that they didn't change anything" attitude. No changes means the format is healthy. That should be the goal, right? The format doesn't need to be "shaken up" if it's healthy. Besides, the meta is evolving on its own, without the need for bannings/unbannings to "shake things up."
Incredibly, almost soul crushingly, disappointing. As a TO and as a player, I was really hoping they were going to do something after stating they thought the format is stale. Which it is. Hopefully Khans Drafts/Sealed and Standard can pull people in for a few months. Hopefully they actually update the ban list in January, but I won't hold my breath.
Incredibly, almost soul crushingly, disappointing. As a TO and as a player, I was really hoping they were going to do something after stating they thought the format is stale. Which it is. Hopefully Khans Drafts/Sealed and Standard can pull people in for a few months. Hopefully they actually update the ban list in January, but I won't hold my breath.
So what exactly were you expecting to change considering the healthiness of the format?
So what exactly were you expecting to change considering the healthiness of the format?
For one, unbanning Golgari Grave-Troll would have at least somewhat excited me and 2 other people somewhere. No changes at all basically show that they had their answer right after the other b&r list; the same. Although I don't want changes all the time because it won't give the format a chance to marinate, a change for the good every once in a while wouldn't hurt.
Also, you have to admit that 99% of people knew that there would be no changes again.
Or at least they could have done something more hateful to Storm. We know how many tournaments that has taken down in the recent times...
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
I'm not sure if you're serious? Or was that trolling/sarcasm? I'll assume serious. Wizards themselves said that the format isn't healthy, it's one of the reasons they were removing it from the rotation. Control and Aggro are far too weak for Modern to be considered healthy currently. I believe people are confusing the term "stable" for "healthy". Also, it's important to note, while most healthy formats are stable, not all stable formats are healthy. And I expected them to do SOMETHING, as they themselves stated that the format is also stale. Even just throwing out a bone to the players and unbanning GGT would have been something. Like @FoodChainGoblins said above, it would have at least made a few people happy.
@Pizzap
I can understand this reasoning. I just hope the new standard is varied enough at the top levels to allow for a continued interest in the format. And whenever a new set is released, drafts fire constantly for a month. It's the time after, when the "new set is out" feeling goes away that I am worried about.
Incredibly, almost soul crushingly, disappointing. As a TO and as a player, I was really hoping they were going to do something after stating they thought the format is stale. Which it is. Hopefully Khans Drafts/Sealed and Standard can pull people in for a few months. Hopefully they actually update the ban list in January, but I won't hold my breath.
WotC is a business and Khans should draw people into the next rotation of Standard, one of the cash cows. Making people excited for Modern would be a terrible move if you want to keep selling packs. This is the time WotC wants to make you think about making a new Standard deck, not a Modern deck.
To be fair, they did unban Valakut right before Return to Ravnica. However, that was probably primarily because of the pro tour being Modern for that set.
maybe no change means they will print something in the next set that either independently or with the new fetches, creates a new deck or makes an old one playable, it's been a while since they printed a card that makes a whole new powerful deck. basically since Delver, Nykthos is very close but not quite there
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Project Booster Fun makes it less fun to open a booster.
I'm hoping for a broken delve card, even though they know they're skirting the safety line with alternative cost cards.
I'm also pleased at the announcement.
Can anyone think of ANYTHING that the fetches might enable that seems to be being missed on peoples radar? I feel like the onslaught fetches might throw the balance of power in some way that Wizards is being cautious of. I'm hoping they know something is coming that will require the self regulation of the format to occur (like the more recent adaptation to the heavy twin meta this summer).
Sure, there is a chance of spending $4 on a booster and getting the Mythic Rare $30 super card. There is also a chance of surviving putting your tongue in a light socket.
I'm hoping for a broken delve card, even though they know they're skirting the safety line with alternative cost cards.
I'm also pleased at the announcement.
Can anyone think of ANYTHING that the fetches might enable that seems to be being missed on peoples radar? I feel like the onslaught fetches might throw the balance of power in some way that Wizards is being cautious of. I'm hoping they know something is coming that will require the self regulation of the format to occur (like the more recent adaptation to the heavy twin meta this summer).
May help power some Grixis or Esper Delver decks, being able to EoT Serum Vision into a fetch activation, while not as powerful as Brainstorm fetch, may be good enough for modern. My big question is now that the allied color have the same mana fixing options, many think that they will be on an even playing field, but how is there creautre/spell base? Does BUG have the same kind of power and Jund or Junk, can Grixis or Esper really match UWR control? Many of these decks haven't had the same kind of testing the proven and established decks have received, so even if there is a winning combination, it might be a year before we see it. I think this is why they are being cautious, as it's really hard to tell what decks the new fetches might enable. Adding in un-bans on top of fetches will not only take away from Khans launch, but also may push one deck too far. Letting the meta digest these new cards first helps keep the meta healthy and stable, even though it is rather boring.
For one, unbanning Golgari Grave-Troll would have at least somewhat excited me and 2 other people somewhere.
Voting my support for the Golgari Grave-Troll unban. We only need one more person!
But really, this one is long overdue. I get that WotC hates Dredge, but they can't unprint it, and it's not like it's breaking the format without Dread Return. I have a hard time believing that the Dredger-Narcoemoeba-Bridge interaction is really striking fear into anybody, especially given the best sacrifice outlets are probably Viscera Seer, Culling Dais, Spawning Pit, or Falkenrath Aristocrat, AND Rest in Peace is a popular sideboard card.
It's a bit strange that WotC won't allow Dredge into the format, because (1) all of the best hate for it is Modern legal, (2) the best sacrifice outlets aren't Modern legal, and (3) the most iconic recurring creature (Ichorid) isn't modern legal.
Playing millions of cards every turn... Slowly and systematically obliterating any chance my opponent has of winning... Clicking the multitude of locking mechanisms into place... Not even trying to win myself until turn 10+ once I have nigh absolute control... Watching my opponent desperately trying to navigate the labyrinthine prison that I've constructed... Seeing the light of hope fade and ultimately extinguished in an excruciatingly slow manner... THAT'S fun Magic.
We have 2-3 users that are dramatically making this thread incomprehensible and non-productive for anyone else to possibly join in the discussion. This needs to change.
Every time I see [ktkenshinx] post in here, I get the impression of a stern dad walking in on a bunch of kids trying to do something dumb and just shaking his head in disappointment.
Near Mint: The same as Slightly Played, but we threw some Altoids in the box we stored it in to cover up the scent of dead mice. Slightly Played: The base condition for all MTG cards. This card looks OK, but there’s one minor annoying ding in it that will always irritate and distract you whenever you draw it. Moderately Played: This card looks like it survived the Tet Offensive tucked inside the waistband of GI underwear. It may smell like it, too. Heavily Played: This card looks like the remains of Mohammed Atta’s passport after 9/11. It may be playable if you double-sleeve it to stop the chunks from falling out. The condition formerly known as "Washing Machine Grade" Damaged: This card is the unfortunate victim of a Mirrorweave/March of the Machines/Chaos Confetti/Mindslaver combo.
[M]aking counterfeit cards is the absolute height of dishonesty. Ask yourself this question: Since most people...are totally cool with the use of proxies...what purpose do [high] quality counterfeit cards serve?
I'd be the other person of the 2 that would be happy. I was hoping for at least some thing to be unbanned since the format has gotten a bit stale and I don't think the allied fetches will change things a whole lot. They will enable allied color decks a bit more but I don't think there will be a huge shake-up.
@FoodChainGoblins, there are more than 3 people who wishes a GGT unban. In the first place, I have never understood, why they did ban him, since the real problematic card (Dread Return) is banned.
@Thread, I think, that the Modern meta is atm pretty decent, off course there is a lack or only few of a specific archetypes (Prison/Staxx, Survival,...) but those are in general decks, which aren't liked by wizard. There are some cards, which could shake the modern format up, by reprinting it, but I think, that wizards know exactly, what they are doing (or at least most of the times).
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
I'm not sure if you're serious? Or was that trolling/sarcasm? I'll assume serious. Wizards themselves said that the format isn't healthy, it's one of the reasons they were removing it from the rotation. Control and Aggro are far too weak for Modern to be considered healthy currently. I believe people are confusing the term "stable" for "healthy". Also, it's important to note, while most healthy formats are stable, not all stable formats are healthy. And I expected them to do SOMETHING, as they themselves stated that the format is also stale. Even just throwing out a bone to the players and unbanning GGT would have been something. Like @FoodChainGoblins said above, it would have at least made a few people happy.
@Pizzap
I can understand this reasoning. I just hope the new standard is varied enough at the top levels to allow for a continued interest in the format. And whenever a new set is released, drafts fire constantly for a month. It's the time after, when the "new set is out" feeling goes away that I am worried about.
There is a tremendous diversity of play styles, not as much as Legacy, but still very diverse. Wizards said the format was closer to stale, not unhealthy, as the main archetypes are pretty set, but there's plenty of balance. Not sure what you think the format should look like, but this is a very good looking format.
While i am dissappointed with no unban/bans it is completely understandable. The khanslaught fetchs are going to shake up the meta; in that they make a lot more manabases stable which opens up new decks. Unbanning anything would just add to the conusion, letting modern sort itself out with the new fetchs makes sense without bannings causing more problems.
I think AV will be unbanned soon, as well as GGT r fairly safe. I would like to see either preordain or ponder unbanned but that cant be done until splinter twin is banned (stupid twin making it so U cant get anything nice). If no real control deck steps up in the next 6-8 months, i would like JtMS to get a temp unbanning just to see if it will ruin the format. I would be up for Wizards doing something like JtMS is unbanned for 6 months to see how it warps the format and then Wizards gives a final decision, all clearly spelled out in the unbanning article.
The more and more I think about it, I just wish they'd ban Splinter Twin. I feel that it doesn't contribute much to the format and warps the format, because every new deck has to pass the "Splinter Twin Test": If you can't disrupt that particular combo, you're open to just dying on turn 4 and your deck isn't any good.
If Twin were gone, it would open up room for so much more diversity. Some of the blue cards might become safe unbans, as TheNoob pointed out. And more aggro decks might be viable as well. Just my thoughts.
The more and more I think about it, I just wish they'd ban Splinter Twin. I feel that it doesn't contribute much to the format and warps the format, because every new deck has to pass the "Splinter Twin Test": If you can't disrupt that particular combo, you're open to just dying on turn 4 and your deck isn't any good.
If Twin were gone, it would open up room for so much more diversity. Some of the blue cards might become safe unbans, as TheNoob pointed out. And more aggro decks might be viable as well. Just my thoughts.
I'm not a big fan of this line of thinking about the "Deck/Card Test". Formats will always have tests like that. Modern has many; the Bolt Test (for creatures and planeswalkers), the Thoughtseize Test (for combo decks that lack redundancy), the Affinity Test (for decks that are too durdly), the Twin Test (for decks that try to get by without interaction), etc. That is a natural consequence of the cards available in the format and, to use one of my least favorite lines of argument, if someone doesn't like those tests then this probably isn't the format for them.
Of course, there are certainly tests that would not be acceptable in the format. Unbanning JTMS, for example, would introduce the Jace Test, where every deck is either playing Jace or answering Jace. Twin isn't nearly that bad because every deck can't just play the Twin combo package, nor do they even want to play it. But something like the Jace Test is probably too polarizing for the format.
The more and more I think about it, I just wish they'd ban Splinter Twin. I feel that it doesn't contribute much to the format and warps the format, because every new deck has to pass the "Splinter Twin Test": If you can't disrupt that particular combo, you're open to just dying on turn 4 and your deck isn't any good.
If Twin were gone, it would open up room for so much more diversity. Some of the blue cards might become safe unbans, as TheNoob pointed out. And more aggro decks might be viable as well. Just my thoughts.
I like that twin exists as a tier 1 deck in the format because it forces your deck to be interactive. If you want to play a completely noninteractive combo deck, well you'll play against twin round two and four then be out of the tournament. If you want to play a beat down deck that wants to put their head in the sand, vomit your dorks out and pray to god that it's good enough, twin shuts that down. Those types of decks are not interesting to play with or to play against because it is as close to playing solitaire as possible in a game of magic.
Is the deck TOO oppressive to these things? I don't know. Should the deck be weakened a little bit? Maybe. But what I do know is that decks that are doing their best to avoid actually playing magic with you, but rather playing at you, are not a fun experience and are something that wizards is strongly against being viable because they make for a very miserable tournament experience for all players. Nobody has fun when they lose round one in 15 minutes and when their friend asks how they lost so easily you just say "they cast karn on turn 3 and I scooped." I've played my share of tron, sabre bargain, tolarian academy, and show and tell style decks over the years and they were never "fun." They were good, they won me a lot, but it was always the same story. "Is this good enough? It is? Well, ok. I win I guess. Thanks for 'playing' a game with me. Bro."
If your deck is actually interactive then twin is a very fun deck to play with and against. My favorite match to paly and to watch is control vs twin because everything is so complex and interactive with dozens of decision trees every turn. But if you are trying to cheat emrakul out on turn 3 then no matter what happens the match will be boring and the exact opposite of fun weather you win or lose.
The more and more I think about it, I just wish they'd ban Splinter Twin. I feel that it doesn't contribute much to the format and warps the format, because every new deck has to pass the "Splinter Twin Test": If you can't disrupt that particular combo, you're open to just dying on turn 4 and your deck isn't any good.
If Twin were gone, it would open up room for so much more diversity. Some of the blue cards might become safe unbans, as TheNoob pointed out. And more aggro decks might be viable as well. Just my thoughts.
If Twin gets banned, my Tron deck will laugh it's way to the bank.
Good hell Tron has a good matchup against almost the entire field. Twin is what keeps it in check.
Twin does not 'warp' the format. It is just a deck. Same with Pod and Jund. Why don't you want Pod banned? They can just ignore you and go get their infinite damage combo.
Saying every deck has to pass the 'Splinter Twin test' doesn't hold much merit. What exactly is that test? If there is one card that forces a 'test' it's Lightning Bolt. Lightning Bolt is arguably the most versatile and best card in the Modern format. It holds down Aggro decks, gives control and UR Tempo type decks a great wincon, and every creature that get's printed has to have ETB value or survive the 'Bolt test' to even consider Modern play.
The more and more I think about it, I just wish they'd ban Splinter Twin. I feel that it doesn't contribute much to the format and warps the format, because every new deck has to pass the "Splinter Twin Test": If you can't disrupt that particular combo, you're open to just dying on turn 4 and your deck isn't any good.
If Twin were gone, it would open up room for so much more diversity. Some of the blue cards might become safe unbans, as TheNoob pointed out. And more aggro decks might be viable as well. Just my thoughts.
I'm not a big fan of this line of thinking about the "Deck/Card Test". Formats will always have tests like that. Modern has many; the Bolt Test (for creatures and planeswalkers), the Thoughtseize Test (for combo decks that lack redundancy), the Affinity Test (for decks that are too durdly), the Twin Test (for decks that try to get by without interaction), etc. That is a natural consequence of the cards available in the format and, to use one of my least favorite lines of argument, if someone doesn't like those tests then this probably isn't the format for them.
Of course, there are certainly tests that would not be acceptable in the format. Unbanning JTMS, for example, would introduce the Jace Test, where every deck is either playing Jace or answering Jace. Twin isn't nearly that bad because every deck can't just play the Twin combo package, nor do they even want to play it. But something like the Jace Test is probably too polarizing for the format.
Has anyone actually tested JTMS in modern? I imagine he would auto slot into UWR control (enabling terminus?) and twin as the two big blue decks of the format.
I have and it was not interesting. I played an extra 4 off color fetchlands in a straight U/W control deck and easily won the game once I untapped with him in play. Jace in control is like birthing pod decks. It's embarrassing how easy it is to win with one in play, but hard without it. The key difference being is that jace only requires that you play with fetch lands while birthing pod demands a very specific deck configuration which can easily be hated out by the rest of the field. Jace is just a 4 mana planeswalker that wins the game single handedly. It's just as busted here as it was in standard. Bloodbraid would indeed keep jace in check, but the rest of the format would suffer severely when having to compete with both cards in the format. I love playing with jace and I think it's super fun, but it would certainly be a bad thing for the format as a whole.
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And on that day, Garfield said unto the world "Go ye forth and durdle!"
I'm not a big fan of this line of thinking about the "Deck/Card Test". Formats will always have tests like that. Modern has many; the Bolt Test (for creatures and planeswalkers), the Thoughtseize Test (for combo decks that lack redundancy), the Affinity Test (for decks that are too durdly), the Twin Test (for decks that try to get by without interaction), etc. That is a natural consequence of the cards available in the format and, to use one of my least favorite lines of argument, if someone doesn't like those tests then this probably isn't the format for them.
Of course, there are certainly tests that would not be acceptable in the format. Unbanning JTMS, for example, would introduce the Jace Test, where every deck is either playing Jace or answering Jace. Twin isn't nearly that bad because every deck can't just play the Twin combo package, nor do they even want to play it. But something like the Jace Test is probably too polarizing for the format.
I was about to immediately refute what he said. Then I thought about it more. A way to get "straight A's" on the Twin Test is to play BGx. BGx is the most expensive deck in the format and almost impossible for someone just starting to afford. This leaves newcomers trying different decks to try to beat their local "Twin" player, who probably is a quite good player and probably pretty versed in the deck. I think the problem with putting the blame on Splinter Twin as a card is too naïve, as local tournaments could just as easily be dominated by Angel Pod or even GR Tron. Every format has its Tier 1 decks and its "less than Tier 1" decks. For someone trying something like Possibility Storm for example, you will find it tough to compete with the Twin players of the format. Their combo is just better; maybe not as fun, but better (it has been tested).
What you said was completely right. There are always going to be cards that are played and some that are not (Primeval Titan kept many cards from even being considered, as well as that little Insectile Aberration later on.) Sometimes players have to either play what they want and realize what matchups are poor or just metagame against something like Twin, by using RDW as an example.
I have never had that problem with Twin. From the start of Modern, I knew Twin would be heavily played. I played decks that would dismantle Twin and I was rewarded for it. I played in tournaments where 4 out of 7 rounds were Twin and a side event that was 4 rounds of Twin into the top 8, then Twin in the top 8. Recently I played Bogles and I knew that Twin was a horrible matchup. But I tested it a bunch and knew what I had to do to have any chance of winning. Twin kept me from top 8ing 2 PTQs (3 losses to Twin in those), but the matchup played just like a rerun of an old episode of the Simpsons.
I went on there quite a bit, so I'll just stop at this. Sometimes people need to think outside of the box if a matchup is really giving them a tough time. I have played forever and never have felt helpless to a certain deck (other than Workshop in Vintage). I think we all can see by the PTQ results around the world and other tournament results that Twin is not dominating completely.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
The more and more I think about it, I just wish they'd ban Splinter Twin. I feel that it doesn't contribute much to the format and warps the format, because every new deck has to pass the "Splinter Twin Test": If you can't disrupt that particular combo, you're open to just dying on turn 4 and your deck isn't any good.
Decks without disruption as fugly!!!
Eggs? Storm? Ad Nauseam? Amulet Titan? Hive mind?
I prefer having to deal with Splinter Twin than any of those.
Interactive decks are like the most lovable thing in magic.
If Twin were gone, it would open up room for so much more diversity. Some of the blue cards might become safe unbans, as TheNoob pointed out. And more aggro decks might be viable as well. Just my thoughts.
It's true that aggro decks suffer. But uninteractive aggro tends to become weaker and weaker in older formats. (And if you kill a combo deck, uninteractive aggro will still be weak to the next combo deck).
All good counterpoints, and I'm always open to having my mind changed. Mostly, I was reacting to the sentiment - frequently expressed on this thread - that aggro and control are underrepresented in Modern, a sentiment that I happen to disagree with. I play Hatebears, so I know that an aggro deck has to be disruptive in order to survive in Modern (and my Twin matchup is decent). Twin just feels very "oops I win" to me; at the very least it's "Do you have Path or Abrupt Decay and the mana to cast it through my EOT Exarch? No? Oops, I win." I know it's not always that simple, but it often is. And as FoodChainGoblins pointed out, the easiest answer that the above exchange is to be BGx and have the Decay, plus the hand disruption to further disrupt the combo.
Anyways, I'm just rambling, but I do enjoy thinking about these things. Overall, I'm very happy with the format, and am 100% OK with the "no change" announcement.
I concur. Modern is healthy, so why ban/unban anything? I don't get this "it's boring that they didn't change anything" attitude. No changes means the format is healthy. That should be the goal, right? The format doesn't need to be "shaken up" if it's healthy. Besides, the meta is evolving on its own, without the need for bannings/unbannings to "shake things up."
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
So what exactly were you expecting to change considering the healthiness of the format?
For one, unbanning Golgari Grave-Troll would have at least somewhat excited me and 2 other people somewhere. No changes at all basically show that they had their answer right after the other b&r list; the same. Although I don't want changes all the time because it won't give the format a chance to marinate, a change for the good every once in a while wouldn't hurt.
Also, you have to admit that 99% of people knew that there would be no changes again.
Or at least they could have done something more hateful to Storm. We know how many tournaments that has taken down in the recent times...
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)I'm not sure if you're serious? Or was that trolling/sarcasm? I'll assume serious. Wizards themselves said that the format isn't healthy, it's one of the reasons they were removing it from the rotation. Control and Aggro are far too weak for Modern to be considered healthy currently. I believe people are confusing the term "stable" for "healthy". Also, it's important to note, while most healthy formats are stable, not all stable formats are healthy. And I expected them to do SOMETHING, as they themselves stated that the format is also stale. Even just throwing out a bone to the players and unbanning GGT would have been something. Like @FoodChainGoblins said above, it would have at least made a few people happy.
@Pizzap
I can understand this reasoning. I just hope the new standard is varied enough at the top levels to allow for a continued interest in the format. And whenever a new set is released, drafts fire constantly for a month. It's the time after, when the "new set is out" feeling goes away that I am worried about.
To be fair, they did unban Valakut right before Return to Ravnica. However, that was probably primarily because of the pro tour being Modern for that set.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm also pleased at the announcement.
Can anyone think of ANYTHING that the fetches might enable that seems to be being missed on peoples radar? I feel like the onslaught fetches might throw the balance of power in some way that Wizards is being cautious of. I'm hoping they know something is coming that will require the self regulation of the format to occur (like the more recent adaptation to the heavy twin meta this summer).
May help power some Grixis or Esper Delver decks, being able to EoT Serum Vision into a fetch activation, while not as powerful as Brainstorm fetch, may be good enough for modern. My big question is now that the allied color have the same mana fixing options, many think that they will be on an even playing field, but how is there creautre/spell base? Does BUG have the same kind of power and Jund or Junk, can Grixis or Esper really match UWR control? Many of these decks haven't had the same kind of testing the proven and established decks have received, so even if there is a winning combination, it might be a year before we see it. I think this is why they are being cautious, as it's really hard to tell what decks the new fetches might enable. Adding in un-bans on top of fetches will not only take away from Khans launch, but also may push one deck too far. Letting the meta digest these new cards first helps keep the meta healthy and stable, even though it is rather boring.
Cheeri0sXWU
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Voting my support for the Golgari Grave-Troll unban. We only need one more person!
But really, this one is long overdue. I get that WotC hates Dredge, but they can't unprint it, and it's not like it's breaking the format without Dread Return. I have a hard time believing that the Dredger-Narcoemoeba-Bridge interaction is really striking fear into anybody, especially given the best sacrifice outlets are probably Viscera Seer, Culling Dais, Spawning Pit, or Falkenrath Aristocrat, AND Rest in Peace is a popular sideboard card.
It's a bit strange that WotC won't allow Dredge into the format, because (1) all of the best hate for it is Modern legal, (2) the best sacrifice outlets aren't Modern legal, and (3) the most iconic recurring creature (Ichorid) isn't modern legal.
If you're a Modern player, and you're going to go all-in on some kind of Dredger-Phantasmagorian-Vengevine-Narcomoeba-Bridge strategy, then you DESERVE Golgari Grave-Troll, because you're just going to have to battle your way through Rest in Peace, Tormod's Crypt, Relic of Progenitus, and Surgical Extraction in games 2 and 3. And as a Dredge player myself, I salute you for adding diversity to the format.
WUDeath&TaxesWG
Legacy
UBRGDredgeUBRG
UHigh TideU
URGLandsURG
WR Card Choice List
WUR American D&T
WUB Esper D&T
The Reserved List
Heat Maps
@Thread, I think, that the Modern meta is atm pretty decent, off course there is a lack or only few of a specific archetypes (Prison/Staxx, Survival,...) but those are in general decks, which aren't liked by wizard. There are some cards, which could shake the modern format up, by reprinting it, but I think, that wizards know exactly, what they are doing (or at least most of the times).
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
There is a tremendous diversity of play styles, not as much as Legacy, but still very diverse. Wizards said the format was closer to stale, not unhealthy, as the main archetypes are pretty set, but there's plenty of balance. Not sure what you think the format should look like, but this is a very good looking format.
I think AV will be unbanned soon, as well as GGT r fairly safe. I would like to see either preordain or ponder unbanned but that cant be done until splinter twin is banned (stupid twin making it so U cant get anything nice). If no real control deck steps up in the next 6-8 months, i would like JtMS to get a temp unbanning just to see if it will ruin the format. I would be up for Wizards doing something like JtMS is unbanned for 6 months to see how it warps the format and then Wizards gives a final decision, all clearly spelled out in the unbanning article.
If Twin were gone, it would open up room for so much more diversity. Some of the blue cards might become safe unbans, as TheNoob pointed out. And more aggro decks might be viable as well. Just my thoughts.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator
I'm not a big fan of this line of thinking about the "Deck/Card Test". Formats will always have tests like that. Modern has many; the Bolt Test (for creatures and planeswalkers), the Thoughtseize Test (for combo decks that lack redundancy), the Affinity Test (for decks that are too durdly), the Twin Test (for decks that try to get by without interaction), etc. That is a natural consequence of the cards available in the format and, to use one of my least favorite lines of argument, if someone doesn't like those tests then this probably isn't the format for them.
Of course, there are certainly tests that would not be acceptable in the format. Unbanning JTMS, for example, would introduce the Jace Test, where every deck is either playing Jace or answering Jace. Twin isn't nearly that bad because every deck can't just play the Twin combo package, nor do they even want to play it. But something like the Jace Test is probably too polarizing for the format.
I like that twin exists as a tier 1 deck in the format because it forces your deck to be interactive. If you want to play a completely noninteractive combo deck, well you'll play against twin round two and four then be out of the tournament. If you want to play a beat down deck that wants to put their head in the sand, vomit your dorks out and pray to god that it's good enough, twin shuts that down. Those types of decks are not interesting to play with or to play against because it is as close to playing solitaire as possible in a game of magic.
Is the deck TOO oppressive to these things? I don't know. Should the deck be weakened a little bit? Maybe. But what I do know is that decks that are doing their best to avoid actually playing magic with you, but rather playing at you, are not a fun experience and are something that wizards is strongly against being viable because they make for a very miserable tournament experience for all players. Nobody has fun when they lose round one in 15 minutes and when their friend asks how they lost so easily you just say "they cast karn on turn 3 and I scooped." I've played my share of tron, sabre bargain, tolarian academy, and show and tell style decks over the years and they were never "fun." They were good, they won me a lot, but it was always the same story. "Is this good enough? It is? Well, ok. I win I guess. Thanks for 'playing' a game with me. Bro."
If your deck is actually interactive then twin is a very fun deck to play with and against. My favorite match to paly and to watch is control vs twin because everything is so complex and interactive with dozens of decision trees every turn. But if you are trying to cheat emrakul out on turn 3 then no matter what happens the match will be boring and the exact opposite of fun weather you win or lose.
If Twin gets banned, my Tron deck will laugh it's way to the bank.
Good hell Tron has a good matchup against almost the entire field. Twin is what keeps it in check.
Twin does not 'warp' the format. It is just a deck. Same with Pod and Jund. Why don't you want Pod banned? They can just ignore you and go get their infinite damage combo.
Saying every deck has to pass the 'Splinter Twin test' doesn't hold much merit. What exactly is that test? If there is one card that forces a 'test' it's Lightning Bolt. Lightning Bolt is arguably the most versatile and best card in the Modern format. It holds down Aggro decks, gives control and UR Tempo type decks a great wincon, and every creature that get's printed has to have ETB value or survive the 'Bolt test' to even consider Modern play.
Twin is not oppressive, the format is healthy.
I have and it was not interesting. I played an extra 4 off color fetchlands in a straight U/W control deck and easily won the game once I untapped with him in play. Jace in control is like birthing pod decks. It's embarrassing how easy it is to win with one in play, but hard without it. The key difference being is that jace only requires that you play with fetch lands while birthing pod demands a very specific deck configuration which can easily be hated out by the rest of the field. Jace is just a 4 mana planeswalker that wins the game single handedly. It's just as busted here as it was in standard. Bloodbraid would indeed keep jace in check, but the rest of the format would suffer severely when having to compete with both cards in the format. I love playing with jace and I think it's super fun, but it would certainly be a bad thing for the format as a whole.
I was about to immediately refute what he said. Then I thought about it more. A way to get "straight A's" on the Twin Test is to play BGx. BGx is the most expensive deck in the format and almost impossible for someone just starting to afford. This leaves newcomers trying different decks to try to beat their local "Twin" player, who probably is a quite good player and probably pretty versed in the deck. I think the problem with putting the blame on Splinter Twin as a card is too naïve, as local tournaments could just as easily be dominated by Angel Pod or even GR Tron. Every format has its Tier 1 decks and its "less than Tier 1" decks. For someone trying something like Possibility Storm for example, you will find it tough to compete with the Twin players of the format. Their combo is just better; maybe not as fun, but better (it has been tested).
What you said was completely right. There are always going to be cards that are played and some that are not (Primeval Titan kept many cards from even being considered, as well as that little Insectile Aberration later on.) Sometimes players have to either play what they want and realize what matchups are poor or just metagame against something like Twin, by using RDW as an example.
I have never had that problem with Twin. From the start of Modern, I knew Twin would be heavily played. I played decks that would dismantle Twin and I was rewarded for it. I played in tournaments where 4 out of 7 rounds were Twin and a side event that was 4 rounds of Twin into the top 8, then Twin in the top 8. Recently I played Bogles and I knew that Twin was a horrible matchup. But I tested it a bunch and knew what I had to do to have any chance of winning. Twin kept me from top 8ing 2 PTQs (3 losses to Twin in those), but the matchup played just like a rerun of an old episode of the Simpsons.
I went on there quite a bit, so I'll just stop at this. Sometimes people need to think outside of the box if a matchup is really giving them a tough time. I have played forever and never have felt helpless to a certain deck (other than Workshop in Vintage). I think we all can see by the PTQ results around the world and other tournament results that Twin is not dominating completely.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Decks without disruption as fugly!!!
Eggs? Storm? Ad Nauseam? Amulet Titan? Hive mind?
I prefer having to deal with Splinter Twin than any of those.
Interactive decks are like the most lovable thing in magic.
It's true that aggro decks suffer. But uninteractive aggro tends to become weaker and weaker in older formats. (And if you kill a combo deck, uninteractive aggro will still be weak to the next combo deck).
Anyways, I'm just rambling, but I do enjoy thinking about these things. Overall, I'm very happy with the format, and am 100% OK with the "no change" announcement.
Modern: GW Hatebears/midrange, WGU Knightfall/evolution midrange stuff
Standard: nope
Legacy: W Death & Taxes
EDH (not Commander!): W Avacyn, Angel of Hope, GR Ruric Thar, the Unbowed, WGB Anafenza, the Foremost, WU Hanna, Ship's Navigator