I'm new to Modern and bought in with Elves. It's been a blast to play, though I've only had a chance to play it once at my LGS. I went 2-2 due to running mono-green at the time, with budget sideboard. Since then I've upgraded and running a strong sideboard for my local META. Both of my match losses were due to limited sideboard options for affinity and BW tokens. From what I gather I should have been able to race them to a win, but it didn't work out that way. Now my sideboard should fit and help better, but wanted some input from this group on it.
I'm new to Modern and bought in with Elves. It's been a blast to play, though I've only had a chance to play it once at my LGS. I went 2-2 due to running mono-green at the time, with budget sideboard. Since then I've upgraded and running a strong sideboard for my local META. Both of my match losses were due to limited sideboard options for affinity and BW tokens. From what I gather I should have been able to race them to a win, but it didn't work out that way. Now my sideboard should fit and help better, but wanted some input from this group on it.
You have too much Affinity hate. Choose either 2 Frac Gusts or 2 Corrosion or 2 Stony + 1 Gust. Also, if you really want to run Gbw, I suggest Something like 3 Razorverge, 3 Blooming, 4 fetches, 1 Temple Garden, 1 Overgrown Tomb and Forests. Or add utility lands according to your meta's Blood Moons.
Imperious Perfect, Dwynen and Joraga Warcaller are all too slow I think. Try bumping Chord to 3 or 4. Chord is very versatile. It can get Heritage Druid if you need mana early on, Archdruid of a potential next turn kill, Ezuri and Shaman for the kill. If you want more lords, try running Elvish Champions instead. The Forestwalk matters in a lot of match-ups. You'd also want life gain on your sideboard. If you're on a budget, try Essence Warden. Or try Kitchen Finks if you have the dough. I'm also a budget player and I grinded my whole elves deck from scratch.
Also, Tokens want to out-tempo you. They won't cast token-generating spells unless they're ahead. They'll probably get card advantage first by stripping your hand using Thoughtseize and Inquisition. Usually by killing all your 1/1s if you don't have lords using Zealous Persecution or Wrath of God. Personally, I'd rather have Lead the Stampede over Ratchet Bombs to help you rebuild after a boardwipe.
I'm also a budget player and I grinded my whole elves deck from scratch including a playset of Caverns, 2 Horizon Canopies and sideboard stuff. Feel free to ask if you have other questions.
Hey all! I'm running an abzan list (mainly cause i have most of the cards) with thoughtseizes in the side. read back 20 pages and only found a few lists including yours syreal that use it or duress. anyone have thoughts on it? the advantages/disadvantages? which matchups are you bringing it in? what are you taking out? when are you casting it turn 3? this is the list I run, I have 3 mainboard wardens for aggro and to try and mitigate the damage I take from fetches and the like. don't mind the sideboard.
Note that this is basically a carbon copy of the list Liam Lonergan used to win the SCG Invitational a few months back. Swapping an Elvish Champion in the SB for a Selfless Spirit. Andrew Sullano has also used this list to success, swapping a Forest for a 4th Horizon Canopy.
I think sometimes people get too hung up on poor results/losses. For example, after consecutive runner up's I wasn't thinking to myself "Hey, I wonder if I was playing Black for SOTP if I would have been able to snatch that first place". I instead think to myself "Wow, I've had some really consistent results with this deck! I'm going to keep playing it!" I think mentality is really important. I haven't changed this list at all in 2 months of playing. This is partially because the meta is quite stable at the moment, and partially because I think it's tuned to beat basically everything except Dredge - Dredge can be really difficult.
To answer your question guys, yes I do miss SOTP sometimes for sure. I played GB at GP Melbourne this year and won 2 byes for the tournament with almost the same list (Eldrazi Winter forced some changes). In the Final of the GPT the week before I left my opponent on 1 life, and had 2 Chords for Ezuri to try and push through the final damage. These both met Paths and I couldn't get the damage in. I ultimately lost the game and the series. SOTP was sorely missed there.
But overall, I'm thoroughly impressed with GW. My SOTP slots go to Ewit, Scooze, Spellskite and Rec Sage. These cards can be game 1 allstars. When the elfball simply isn't fast enough or you need to play a different game, these flex slots are so important.
I've had Scooze win me games I was dead to rights in Game 1 vs Burn, Suicide Zoo, Control and Midrange.
I've had Skite win me games against Suicide Zoo, Burn, Bogles, Infect Game 1 that I surely would have lost.
Eternal Witness is a great card in a lot of matchups. I'll even keep her in against infect to bring back a skite/melira that will likely be dismembered.
Reclamation Sage has also been great vs a variety of decks, and is important to keep in against potential Cages as well.
GW and GB both play fundamentally the same kind of elves game. As an elves player, you need to pick WHAT you can attack with and WHEN to simply pass and prepare to play re-actively. This is especially so in post board games. I don't think of Elves as a deck that wants to kill on a particular turn, i.e. as a Turn 3-4-5 deck. While it is certainly capable of doing so, I see elves as a deck that wants to kill on a CERTAIN turn, when the moment is right. "Ok, I've chipped in enough damage with Nettle Sentinel and Dwynen's Elite. My opponent is untapping with 4 mana. I've left 3 creatures and 3 Lands Untapped. I have enough to either Chord for Ezuri in response to a Wrath, or have back-up in the form of Selfless Spirit/Forge Tender". So many of your games go like this. A large portion of my games are simply won on the back of Ezuri. That being said, In heavy removal match-ups, sometimes it's simply fine to out value your opponent. 1v8 on Saturday on the draw against Abzan Midrange, Game 1 I was able to drown my opponent with card advantage and value. I kept an interesting hand of 1 dork/3visionary/2land/1 coco/1 chord. My opponent inquisitioned and took a visionary, which definitely should have been the chord of calling. I was able to draw an Eternal Witness this game and re-cast a coco.
What I love about the deck is the ability to play pro-actively and re-actively. The more reps you get in with the deck the more you will know your role, like any deck really.
Jeskai Control is admittedly pretty tough, but winnable for sure. To be honest, control is such a low part of the metagame that I can't tell you the last time I versed a control variant. Not in the last couple of months save 1 Grixis Control deck. Affinity I usually don't have a problem with. G1 Rec Sage is useful and their slower draws can be beaten. Games 2 and 3 I have 2 Gust/1 Kataki/1 Revoker. You need to find these cards, but you have plenty of chances to do so.
Horizon Canopy is also SUCH an important card. An extra draw step is really important, it also can give added value to Fastlands in giving you an untapped 3rd land once more. I would say the pain damage is negligible in a manabase without fetches. Sure, T1/2/3 you will need to use every point of mana available, and thus hurt yourself for 1-3 damage. But after that you will have enough mana to not need the canopy, and you can cycle it when you have excess mana.
I'd love to stream, but I don't use MODO unfortunately. But feel free to ask for scenarios and match-up advice. This deck is in SUCH a good spot at the moment.
So I love playing elves, and I've read this forum a lot. So I would like others opinion on "Yahenni's Expertise", the aether revolt black board wipe. Does the print of this card shut down elves from ever getting off the ground? This new card looks to be the best 4 mana board wipe that will be available to everyone.... how does elves live though this? Right now I'm looking to hanging up my elves if Yahenni's Expertise becomes a common modern meta.
Anger of the gods is already almost too slow against the Tier 1 creature decks (Infect/Affinity/Dredge), so I wouldn't stress.
Sure, Abzan and Jund may switch out Damnation for this card (Wrath & Drop Lily/Kcommand/Goyf seems great). It doesn't kill a Death's Shadow or any of the Big Eldrazi, so I think that they will still be wanting Damnation.
The midrange match-ups are relatively favoured anyway.
So I love playing elves, and I've read this forum a lot. So I would like others opinion on "Yahenni's Expertise", the aether revolt black board wipe. Does the print of this card shut down elves from ever getting off the ground? This new card looks to be the best 4 mana board wipe that will be available to everyone.... how does elves live though this? Right now I'm looking to hanging up my elves if Yahenni's Expertise becomes a common modern meta.
I think that is a drastic overreaction to a card that may or may not be better or more played than existing board wipes. There is already damnation and languish to deal with, anger of the gods as well. Board wipes are obviously trouble for us, but we have many ways to play around them and reload post board wipe.
I personally just don't see this one card so dramatically changing the meta that a deck as versatile as Elves needs to be "put on the shelf".
Also, shut down elves from ever getting off the ground? It's already off the ground, it's a good deck. It's not tier 1, but it's got more than enough game to box against tier 1 and tier 2 decks with a pilot that knows the deck.
My advice would be playtest against decks that play board wipes, learn to play around them and get a feel for when to extend and go for the kill and when to slow roll it.
oh i have however i dont see an answer to the -x/-x part. the reason languish is unused in modern is due to damnation being better, however the ability to cast a second card for free pushes this card way pasted languish and black sun. as for damnation this seems to be a perfect budget replacement or in some decks better than damnation. Selfless spirit and preventive spells are a main using in my tech to protect against wipes. though there is nothing to my knowledge that stops -x/-x effects. so a full play set of lead the stampede is all i got? as for it being not as good to against infect and the such, i'd counter with board wipes are not meant for those strategist and if it is a decks only opinion then it was doomed to lose to that type of aggro anyway. Eldrazi and decks with larger creatures always strikes me as spot removal over wipes. I say that "im willing to shelves the elves" simply because they have been bullied into a tier 2.5 - 3 deck and it seems that more hate is building rather than cards to push it into a solid meta game choice. I love what coco did for elves but it would seem in the coming meta they would do better elsewhere. If the general conclusion is that its not a big deal then it'll put my mind to rest. If it does put the final nail to modern elves, i'll always have legacy.
I am in a middle ground position. I think its not the end of the world, yes. We have fought through many board wipes and we get new toys like Selfless Spirit. However, the -x-x is relevant and even more so the free mana spell clause. My second deck is Esper Control and I can see doing nasty things with this board wipe (which gives options to control that lacks a tempo swing. This board wipe and Esper Charm, anyone?) I do believe it will make some impact, but since it is more a "build around me" than a generic board wipe, it will depend on what people do with it. If someone comes up with a crazy idea (suspend cards with this?) and we see more and more mainboarding this card, I can see some trouble ahead. If it is used as a generic board wipe, it won't be a big deal.
So I love playing elves, and I've read this forum a lot. So I would like others opinion on "Yahenni's Expertise", the aether revolt black board wipe. Does the print of this card shut down elves from ever getting off the ground? This new card looks to be the best 4 mana board wipe that will be available to everyone.... how does elves live though this? Right now I'm looking to hanging up my elves if Yahenni's Expertise becomes a common modern meta.
There are millions of sweepers at everyone's fingertips. Its just another one we'll have to deal with. Tight play should reward you with this deck against Sweepers anyway, I've done it for ages and its a matter of getting more experienced with both modern and the deck to be able to push it to its extremes against sweepers (its usually my first check for experienced Elves/aggro players)
Hey all! I'm running an abzan list (mainly cause i have most of the cards) with thoughtseizes in the side. read back 20 pages and only found a few lists including yours syreal that use it or duress. anyone have thoughts on it? the advantages/disadvantages? which matchups are you bringing it in? what are you taking out? when are you casting it turn 3? this is the list I run, I have 3 mainboard wardens for aggro and to try and mitigate the damage I take from fetches and the like. don't mind the sideboard.
Not a single Thoughtseize has left my board since I originally added it a year ago. It comes in against every unfair matchup except Affinity (and even then, I've definitely thought about it on the play). You wanna Thoughtseize the turn before everything should hit the fan.
Infect - Turn 2 (Blighted Agent, Become Immense, any big pump spell but ofc this is situational)
Titanshift - Turn 3 (hit an Anger or a Titan)
Tron - T3 (hit the payoff - Ugin first, O-Stone second, Karn third)
Ad Nauseam - T4(Nauseam first, Angels second.)
I even bring it in against the fair decks that pack sweepers like Nahiri Jeskai (because Nahiri is a bit annoying, but mostly Anger moreso.) and Grixis variants. I take out a wide variety of cards depending on the matchup demands. If I go below 30 creatures (which happens sometimes when you board in Thoughseize) I happily shave a Collected Company. Usually Visionary is the first to go against most of these unfair decks, but when boarding in Thoughtseize against slow control decks, you want to get rid of Nettle Sentinel.
oh i have however i dont see an answer to the -x/-x part. the reason languish is unused in modern is due to damnation being better, however the ability to cast a second card for free pushes this card way pasted languish and black sun. as for damnation this seems to be a perfect budget replacement or in some decks better than damnation. Selfless spirit and preventive spells are a main using in my tech to protect against wipes. though there is nothing to my knowledge that stops -x/-x effects. so a full play set of lead the stampede is all i got? as for it being not as good to against infect and the such, i'd counter with board wipes are not meant for those strategist and if it is a decks only opinion then it was doomed to lose to that type of aggro anyway. Eldrazi and decks with larger creatures always strikes me as spot removal over wipes. I say that "im willing to shelves the elves" simply because they have been bullied into a tier 2.5 - 3 deck and it seems that more hate is building rather than cards to push it into a solid meta game choice. I love what coco did for elves but it would seem in the coming meta they would do better elsewhere. If the general conclusion is that its not a big deal then it'll put my mind to rest. If it does put the final nail to modern elves, i'll always have legacy.
The answer to the minus is tight play and not over extending. That's been the answer to every sweeper, always was, always will be. The world is not ending, I assure you.
When do you board in Aven Mindcensor? Have you tried Stony Silence instead of Fracturing Gust? What about some amount of RIP in the board to battle Dredge and other GY-loving decks?
The new sweeper is definitely not an issue. Given that we can often win on turn 3-4 we might just win before it can be cast. If any deck tries to just rely on that sweeper to win with a no removal hand they are in a really bad place. And if it becomes super popular then it might mean that the meta slows down and has more control which wouldn't be bad as a Lead the Stampede build with extra CA in the sideboard like Fecundity or Duskwatch recruiter already gives us a pretty decent control matchup, especially with Thoughtseize for their sweeper. And if Uxx control is popular, choke is not a bad choice.
Edit: if there is a big uptick in control then we could see a cycle of Control hates out aggro, Big Mana/Valakut hates out control, then infect/burn hates out big mana and opens up the meta for more Aggro and the cycle starts again. If that happens, then we are only in a not great place for the big mana are. We hedge for that bit of the cycle however we individually prefer, run Chord during the Aggro but to stay as fast as possible and have hate for infect/affinity/whatever is poular, and Lead the Stampede during the control portion and I think we are still in a good spot.
Wardens did overtime against both Merfolk matchups gaining just enough life to live an extra turn and attack for lethal.
Anafenza, the Foremost is great against Dredge especially coming off T2 via Eldritch Evolution.
Decided in the last second to ditch the Caverns for Marshes and I don't regret it. Caverns are great in a blue heavy meta but the inability to provide coloured mana for spells especially in the early turns can be a real downer sometimes.
Congrats on the 4-0. That is an interesting list, can you tell us about the Main Deck Chameleon colossus and the 2-2 split of chords and evolutions? Also, is Colossus, Thrun, and Dwynen not too many 4-drops? And having 6 total slots in the 75 devoted to your search effects seems restraining. But, you have the main Search targets covered plus wrath insurance, Asylums, and Found room for path so, seems good.
Which is also the reason for the inclusion of all the 4-drops in the sideboard along with the 3rd copy of Eldritch Evolution. Against certain decks you need an answer on T2 such as Melira against Infect, Anafenza against Dredge, Kataki against Affinity etc. and Evolution allows you to tutor them up on T2 whereas Chord needs an additional turn. It's also cheaper in terms of mana compared to Chord since it's tutoring flexibility is tied to the sacrificed creatures CMC rather than the amount of mana invested. With 8 mana you can Evolve a dork into Ezuri and immediately overrun whereas you'd need 11 mana to do the same with Chord. Another advantage is that you don't have to skip combat phase to cast with the help of Convoke. You can attack then Evolve an attacker in your second main phase to grab a Shaman for example.
The reason for a 2-2 split between Evolution and Chord is that sometimes you want the option of instant speed tutoring that Evolution doesn't provide. Like tutoring up a Selfless Spirit in response to a wrath or grabbing a Spellskite to protect your Archdruid/Ezuri. And Chord getting countered doesn't cost you anything but tempo and Chord itself. With Evolution you open yourself up for 2-for-1 situations so you need to play accordingly.
So are Jund and grixis really popular in your meta? Because I don't see them much around me and they don't seem to have a huge presence at bigger tournaments.
I am in a middle ground position. I think its not the end of the world, yes. We have fought through many board wipes and we get new toys like Selfless Spirit. However, the -x-x is relevant and even more so the free mana spell clause. My second deck is Esper Control and I can see doing nasty things with this board wipe (which gives options to control that lacks a tempo swing. This board wipe and Esper Charm, anyone?) I do believe it will make some impact, but since it is more a "build around me" than a generic board wipe, it will depend on what people do with it. If someone comes up with a crazy idea (suspend cards with this?) and we see more and more mainboarding this card, I can see some trouble ahead. If it is used as a generic board wipe, it won't be a big deal.
I too have been tampering with esper and this does seem particularly juicy in that shell. There is just so much damage that can come from this one card. I'm hoping my esper gets a few more toys like this because draw go is actually quite fun in modern as a change of pace. I also think it's quite nasty in fae imo, i.e. Drop the expertise and cast a vendillion clique for free that jumps in a smuggler's copter is more tempo than you can shake a stick at. However, back to the topic at hand...
I agree with the sentiment, after coming off the same initial impression of my deck just got screwed, that not every deck wants this. Grixis will likely pick up 1-2 for the 75 but I doubt main deck. Merfolk and infect both run main deck counters (spell pierce) and zoo has reach to polish off the game after T4. There aren't many other decks that have small toughness that generally care at that point in the game or they can spring back like tokens. This makes for an extremely effective card against us but not so much the field (compared to options available). At first I was very discouraged, but now it's not so bad. I think people have access to stronger options for other match ups (anger for dredge for example, or jund really wanting damnation for things that can go toe to toe with goyf). I'm in general agreement with syreal94 here, just play accordingly against grixis, Abzan (non coco variants, and potentially pox/tokens/Fae as I can see them running 112 in the board.
Seems like the Japanese Elves lists are picking up again!
The first tournament is a 112 man tourney and the list took 12th place. The second list is a 3-0 in a 30 man tourney.
I especially love the second list with Sylvan Ranger. The sideboard is blackspells.tech too, which is right up my alley. I have to admit that I never thought of Collective Brutality in Elves even though I have been high on the card (played two in my Esper Control list that I took for a 4-0 win).
Sylvan Ranger might be a thing I should at least try. I have often been stuck on one land and kept a one land, Visionary, mana dork hand but bricked on the second land. Early on, a tutor for a land almost seems better than a random card. Of course, this changes as the game goes into mid to late game. Per usual, the Japanese lists do forgo the Nettle Sentinels.
Elves are alive my friends! Let’s keep this ball rolling, even without Cavern of Souls
So are Jund and grixis really popular in your meta? Because I don't see them much around me and they don't seem to have a huge presence at bigger tournaments.
They pop up from time to time. Local meta isn't that big but there's plenty of decks between players so it varies wildly at times. Like 3 Merfolk decks this Monday.
I'd say Colossus falls under the flex slot so you're free to replace it with something that suits your meta more. Some have tried out a copy of Sylvan Messenger which really shines with Cavern of Souls to dig 4 cards deep and comes with a 2/2 trampling body. Thrun is an option as well. Or perhaps Eternal Witness. Even though some of these cards aren't elves and don't synergize well with the rest of the deck, they can sometimes turn the tables in our favour. I realise that 4CMC threats don't play well with Collected Company but I think it's worth noting that CoCo has a lot of variance. Sure, there's plenty of times when we hit that double Shaman of the Pack draining them for 14 life. But then there's times when you desperately need something and all you get are two lonely Elvish Mystics.
Higher density of 4CMC threats is also due to Eldritch Evolution I'm running. Tutor effects are always good and our curve is low enough that we can easily convert dorks we might no longer need into something like Archdruid, Ezuri or Shaman of the Pack. With 4x Elvish Visionary and 4x Dwynen's Elite there are also 8 targets to Evolve into the 4CMC threats. Getting a Colossus against Jund on T2/T3 is pretty sweet. Even better against Grixis since they don't Tarmogoyf's. While Tasigur and Angler are useless you have to be careful about Bolt-Snapcaster-Bolt which kills the Colossus.
Elves are alive my friends! Let’s keep this ball rolling, even without Cavern of Souls
Honestly I don't miss Caverns that much at the moment. With the arrival of Blooming Marsh I don't think it's necessary. Along with Gilt-Leaf Palace that's 8 sources of GB which can help us cast spells like Thoughtseize or Stain the Mind which Cavern cannot do. Manawise I think GB is better than GW purely because there is no GW equivalent to Palace. Horizon Canopy does a nice job with the ability to replace itself but taking 1 damage each time you want to cast something can sometimes work against us. Especially if you're running a playset and hit two of them early game.
Hehe, ya, I have been advocating no Caverns a couple of pages back precisely because of the reasons you mentioned. I think non-creature answers are good for sideboard and you need actual mana to cast them. As you have said, Blooming Marsh is a God send, me thinks.
I recently came in to the world of competitive magic and have always liked elves. I decided to build an elf deck that I thought would be competitive. I recently came across this forum and was overwhelmed by how many pages there are on this subject! Needless to say, I haven't read them all... But here is what I came up with:
With Shamans main I may switch up your Llanowar Wastes with Overgrown Tombs and run a couple Windswept Heath. Blooming Marsh is also an option too, and of course Cavern of Souls if you can afford them. Also, I may change Boreal Druid to Elves of Deep Shadow. You aren't overloaded with black in your deck, but you have no way to get Shaman in to play except for Chord and Company.
The 4th Ezuri is probably unnecessary and Riftsweeper really has no purpose. You may consider running some of your SB bullets main in those spots.
I really only put the Shamans in there to get from Chord or CoCo. I figured it would be a nice addition in response to a board wipe main deck. The reason for the Llanowar Wastes is because that's all I had that produced black in the off chance I draw a Shaman.
Yes Riftsweeper isn't the greatest but it can answer a living end or anything else with suspend. Which I find can be problematic sometimes.
I guess I'm unfamiliar with what cards are considered bullets in the Sideboard.
As nice as it is to Chord or Company out a shaman, it's going to be very awkward to draw it with only two black sources. GB elves has the mana base available to run Shaman main for a budget conscious player.
The problem with Riftsweeper for Living End is that it is usually cascaded in to and not suspended. If there is a lot of Living End in your area, Viscera Seer or Tajuru Preserver is a better option and those are probably better off in your sideboard since they are pretty narrow cards.
*edit* Bullets would be your chord targets that are there to answer specific problem cards like Forge-Tender for Anger of the Gods or Kataki for affinity.
And I should mention that you should considering running your broad bullets main like Spellskite and Scavenging Ooze. Both of those cards have game against a lot of decks and it would be perfectly reasonable to have them main deck. Then you can use those sideboard slots for cards to answer decks like Living End because a card like Tajuru Preserve is going to be useless against everything but that deck.
2x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
//Creatures 36
1x Craterhoof Behemoth
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Heritage Druid
1x Imperious Perfect
1x Joraga Warcaller
4x Llanowar Elves
2x Shaman of the Pack
1x Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Elvish Champion
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Elvish Visionary
2x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Pendelhaven
3x Razorverge Thicket
3x Blooming Marsh
9x Forest
1x Westvale Abbey
1x Chameleon Colossus
2x Creeping Corrosion
2x Fracturing Gust
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
2x Path to Exile
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Reclamation Sage
1x Relic of Progenitus
2x Stony Silence
You have too much Affinity hate. Choose either 2 Frac Gusts or 2 Corrosion or 2 Stony + 1 Gust. Also, if you really want to run Gbw, I suggest Something like 3 Razorverge, 3 Blooming, 4 fetches, 1 Temple Garden, 1 Overgrown Tomb and Forests. Or add utility lands according to your meta's Blood Moons.
Imperious Perfect, Dwynen and Joraga Warcaller are all too slow I think. Try bumping Chord to 3 or 4. Chord is very versatile. It can get Heritage Druid if you need mana early on, Archdruid of a potential next turn kill, Ezuri and Shaman for the kill. If you want more lords, try running Elvish Champions instead. The Forestwalk matters in a lot of match-ups. You'd also want life gain on your sideboard. If you're on a budget, try Essence Warden. Or try Kitchen Finks if you have the dough. I'm also a budget player and I grinded my whole elves deck from scratch.
Also, Tokens want to out-tempo you. They won't cast token-generating spells unless they're ahead. They'll probably get card advantage first by stripping your hand using Thoughtseize and Inquisition. Usually by killing all your 1/1s if you don't have lords using Zealous Persecution or Wrath of God. Personally, I'd rather have Lead the Stampede over Ratchet Bombs to help you rebuild after a boardwipe.
I'm also a budget player and I grinded my whole elves deck from scratch including a playset of Caverns, 2 Horizon Canopies and sideboard stuff. Feel free to ask if you have other questions.
Hey all! I'm running an abzan list (mainly cause i have most of the cards) with thoughtseizes in the side. read back 20 pages and only found a few lists including yours syreal that use it or duress. anyone have thoughts on it? the advantages/disadvantages? which matchups are you bringing it in? what are you taking out? when are you casting it turn 3? this is the list I run, I have 3 mainboard wardens for aggro and to try and mitigate the damage I take from fetches and the like. don't mind the sideboard.
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
3 Essence Warden
1 Spellskite
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Collected Company
1 Chord of Calling
3 Lead the Stampede
3 Forest
4 Blooming Marsh
4 Razorverge Thicket
4 Windswept Heath
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
1 Stain the Mind
1 Path to Exile
1 Spellskite
1 Chord of Calling
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Elvish Champion
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Scavenging Ooze
Here is my full 75:
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen's Elite
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Eternal Witness
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Reclamation Sage
4 Collected Company
4 Chord of Calling
//Lands 18
5 Forest
3 Horizon Canopy
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Razorverge Thicket
1 Pendelhaven
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2 Kitchen Finks
2 Path to Exile
2 Fracturing Gust
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Essence Warden
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Chameleon Colossus
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Phyrexian Revoker
Note that this is basically a carbon copy of the list Liam Lonergan used to win the SCG Invitational a few months back. Swapping an Elvish Champion in the SB for a Selfless Spirit. Andrew Sullano has also used this list to success, swapping a Forest for a 4th Horizon Canopy.
I think sometimes people get too hung up on poor results/losses. For example, after consecutive runner up's I wasn't thinking to myself "Hey, I wonder if I was playing Black for SOTP if I would have been able to snatch that first place". I instead think to myself "Wow, I've had some really consistent results with this deck! I'm going to keep playing it!" I think mentality is really important. I haven't changed this list at all in 2 months of playing. This is partially because the meta is quite stable at the moment, and partially because I think it's tuned to beat basically everything except Dredge - Dredge can be really difficult.
To answer your question guys, yes I do miss SOTP sometimes for sure. I played GB at GP Melbourne this year and won 2 byes for the tournament with almost the same list (Eldrazi Winter forced some changes). In the Final of the GPT the week before I left my opponent on 1 life, and had 2 Chords for Ezuri to try and push through the final damage. These both met Paths and I couldn't get the damage in. I ultimately lost the game and the series. SOTP was sorely missed there.
But overall, I'm thoroughly impressed with GW. My SOTP slots go to Ewit, Scooze, Spellskite and Rec Sage. These cards can be game 1 allstars. When the elfball simply isn't fast enough or you need to play a different game, these flex slots are so important.
I've had Scooze win me games I was dead to rights in Game 1 vs Burn, Suicide Zoo, Control and Midrange.
I've had Skite win me games against Suicide Zoo, Burn, Bogles, Infect Game 1 that I surely would have lost.
Eternal Witness is a great card in a lot of matchups. I'll even keep her in against infect to bring back a skite/melira that will likely be dismembered.
Reclamation Sage has also been great vs a variety of decks, and is important to keep in against potential Cages as well.
GW and GB both play fundamentally the same kind of elves game. As an elves player, you need to pick WHAT you can attack with and WHEN to simply pass and prepare to play re-actively. This is especially so in post board games. I don't think of Elves as a deck that wants to kill on a particular turn, i.e. as a Turn 3-4-5 deck. While it is certainly capable of doing so, I see elves as a deck that wants to kill on a CERTAIN turn, when the moment is right. "Ok, I've chipped in enough damage with Nettle Sentinel and Dwynen's Elite. My opponent is untapping with 4 mana. I've left 3 creatures and 3 Lands Untapped. I have enough to either Chord for Ezuri in response to a Wrath, or have back-up in the form of Selfless Spirit/Forge Tender". So many of your games go like this. A large portion of my games are simply won on the back of Ezuri. That being said, In heavy removal match-ups, sometimes it's simply fine to out value your opponent. 1v8 on Saturday on the draw against Abzan Midrange, Game 1 I was able to drown my opponent with card advantage and value. I kept an interesting hand of 1 dork/3visionary/2land/1 coco/1 chord. My opponent inquisitioned and took a visionary, which definitely should have been the chord of calling. I was able to draw an Eternal Witness this game and re-cast a coco.
What I love about the deck is the ability to play pro-actively and re-actively. The more reps you get in with the deck the more you will know your role, like any deck really.
Jeskai Control is admittedly pretty tough, but winnable for sure. To be honest, control is such a low part of the metagame that I can't tell you the last time I versed a control variant. Not in the last couple of months save 1 Grixis Control deck. Affinity I usually don't have a problem with. G1 Rec Sage is useful and their slower draws can be beaten. Games 2 and 3 I have 2 Gust/1 Kataki/1 Revoker. You need to find these cards, but you have plenty of chances to do so.
Horizon Canopy is also SUCH an important card. An extra draw step is really important, it also can give added value to Fastlands in giving you an untapped 3rd land once more. I would say the pain damage is negligible in a manabase without fetches. Sure, T1/2/3 you will need to use every point of mana available, and thus hurt yourself for 1-3 damage. But after that you will have enough mana to not need the canopy, and you can cycle it when you have excess mana.
I'd love to stream, but I don't use MODO unfortunately. But feel free to ask for scenarios and match-up advice. This deck is in SUCH a good spot at the moment.
Anger of the gods is already almost too slow against the Tier 1 creature decks (Infect/Affinity/Dredge), so I wouldn't stress.
Sure, Abzan and Jund may switch out Damnation for this card (Wrath & Drop Lily/Kcommand/Goyf seems great). It doesn't kill a Death's Shadow or any of the Big Eldrazi, so I think that they will still be wanting Damnation.
The midrange match-ups are relatively favoured anyway.
I think that is a drastic overreaction to a card that may or may not be better or more played than existing board wipes. There is already damnation and languish to deal with, anger of the gods as well. Board wipes are obviously trouble for us, but we have many ways to play around them and reload post board wipe.
I personally just don't see this one card so dramatically changing the meta that a deck as versatile as Elves needs to be "put on the shelf".
Also, shut down elves from ever getting off the ground? It's already off the ground, it's a good deck. It's not tier 1, but it's got more than enough game to box against tier 1 and tier 2 decks with a pilot that knows the deck.
My advice would be playtest against decks that play board wipes, learn to play around them and get a feel for when to extend and go for the kill and when to slow roll it.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
There are millions of sweepers at everyone's fingertips. Its just another one we'll have to deal with. Tight play should reward you with this deck against Sweepers anyway, I've done it for ages and its a matter of getting more experienced with both modern and the deck to be able to push it to its extremes against sweepers (its usually my first check for experienced Elves/aggro players)
Not a single Thoughtseize has left my board since I originally added it a year ago. It comes in against every unfair matchup except Affinity (and even then, I've definitely thought about it on the play). You wanna Thoughtseize the turn before everything should hit the fan.
Infect - Turn 2 (Blighted Agent, Become Immense, any big pump spell but ofc this is situational)
Titanshift - Turn 3 (hit an Anger or a Titan)
Tron - T3 (hit the payoff - Ugin first, O-Stone second, Karn third)
Ad Nauseam - T4(Nauseam first, Angels second.)
I even bring it in against the fair decks that pack sweepers like Nahiri Jeskai (because Nahiri is a bit annoying, but mostly Anger moreso.) and Grixis variants. I take out a wide variety of cards depending on the matchup demands. If I go below 30 creatures (which happens sometimes when you board in Thoughseize) I happily shave a Collected Company. Usually Visionary is the first to go against most of these unfair decks, but when boarding in Thoughtseize against slow control decks, you want to get rid of Nettle Sentinel.
The answer to the minus is tight play and not over extending. That's been the answer to every sweeper, always was, always will be. The world is not ending, I assure you.
When do you board in Aven Mindcensor? Have you tried Stony Silence instead of Fracturing Gust? What about some amount of RIP in the board to battle Dredge and other GY-loving decks?
Edit: if there is a big uptick in control then we could see a cycle of Control hates out aggro, Big Mana/Valakut hates out control, then infect/burn hates out big mana and opens up the meta for more Aggro and the cycle starts again. If that happens, then we are only in a not great place for the big mana are. We hedge for that bit of the cycle however we individually prefer, run Chord during the Aggro but to stay as fast as possible and have hate for infect/affinity/whatever is poular, and Lead the Stampede during the control portion and I think we are still in a good spot.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3x Shaman of the Pack
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Eternal Witness
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Spellskite
4x Collected Company
2x Eldritch Evolution
2x Chord of Calling
Lands (18):
4x Blooming Marsh
4x Razorverge Thicket
4x Forest
3x Windswept Heath
1x Temple Garden
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Pendelhaven
2x Mark of Asylum
2x Path to Exile
2x Essence Warden
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Selfless Spirit
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Anafenza, the Foremost
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen
1x Chord of Calling
1x Eldritch Evolution
Wardens did overtime against both Merfolk matchups gaining just enough life to live an extra turn and attack for lethal.
Anafenza, the Foremost is great against Dredge especially coming off T2 via Eldritch Evolution.
Decided in the last second to ditch the Caverns for Marshes and I don't regret it. Caverns are great in a blue heavy meta but the inability to provide coloured mana for spells especially in the early turns can be a real downer sometimes.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
Which is also the reason for the inclusion of all the 4-drops in the sideboard along with the 3rd copy of Eldritch Evolution. Against certain decks you need an answer on T2 such as Melira against Infect, Anafenza against Dredge, Kataki against Affinity etc. and Evolution allows you to tutor them up on T2 whereas Chord needs an additional turn. It's also cheaper in terms of mana compared to Chord since it's tutoring flexibility is tied to the sacrificed creatures CMC rather than the amount of mana invested. With 8 mana you can Evolve a dork into Ezuri and immediately overrun whereas you'd need 11 mana to do the same with Chord. Another advantage is that you don't have to skip combat phase to cast with the help of Convoke. You can attack then Evolve an attacker in your second main phase to grab a Shaman for example.
The reason for a 2-2 split between Evolution and Chord is that sometimes you want the option of instant speed tutoring that Evolution doesn't provide. Like tutoring up a Selfless Spirit in response to a wrath or grabbing a Spellskite to protect your Archdruid/Ezuri. And Chord getting countered doesn't cost you anything but tempo and Chord itself. With Evolution you open yourself up for 2-for-1 situations so you need to play accordingly.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
I too have been tampering with esper and this does seem particularly juicy in that shell. There is just so much damage that can come from this one card. I'm hoping my esper gets a few more toys like this because draw go is actually quite fun in modern as a change of pace. I also think it's quite nasty in fae imo, i.e. Drop the expertise and cast a vendillion clique for free that jumps in a smuggler's copter is more tempo than you can shake a stick at. However, back to the topic at hand...
I agree with the sentiment, after coming off the same initial impression of my deck just got screwed, that not every deck wants this. Grixis will likely pick up 1-2 for the 75 but I doubt main deck. Merfolk and infect both run main deck counters (spell pierce) and zoo has reach to polish off the game after T4. There aren't many other decks that have small toughness that generally care at that point in the game or they can spring back like tokens. This makes for an extremely effective card against us but not so much the field (compared to options available). At first I was very discouraged, but now it's not so bad. I think people have access to stronger options for other match ups (anger for dredge for example, or jund really wanting damnation for things that can go toe to toe with goyf). I'm in general agreement with syreal94 here, just play accordingly against grixis, Abzan (non coco variants, and potentially pox/tokens/Fae as I can see them running 112 in the board.
Seems like the Japanese Elves lists are picking up again!
The first tournament is a 112 man tourney and the list took 12th place. The second list is a 3-0 in a 30 man tourney.
I especially love the second list with Sylvan Ranger. The sideboard is blackspells.tech too, which is right up my alley. I have to admit that I never thought of Collective Brutality in Elves even though I have been high on the card (played two in my Esper Control list that I took for a 4-0 win).
Sylvan Ranger might be a thing I should at least try. I have often been stuck on one land and kept a one land, Visionary, mana dork hand but bricked on the second land. Early on, a tutor for a land almost seems better than a random card. Of course, this changes as the game goes into mid to late game. Per usual, the Japanese lists do forgo the Nettle Sentinels.
Elves are alive my friends! Let’s keep this ball rolling, even without Cavern of Souls
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
They pop up from time to time. Local meta isn't that big but there's plenty of decks between players so it varies wildly at times. Like 3 Merfolk decks this Monday.
I'd say Colossus falls under the flex slot so you're free to replace it with something that suits your meta more. Some have tried out a copy of Sylvan Messenger which really shines with Cavern of Souls to dig 4 cards deep and comes with a 2/2 trampling body. Thrun is an option as well. Or perhaps Eternal Witness. Even though some of these cards aren't elves and don't synergize well with the rest of the deck, they can sometimes turn the tables in our favour. I realise that 4CMC threats don't play well with Collected Company but I think it's worth noting that CoCo has a lot of variance. Sure, there's plenty of times when we hit that double Shaman of the Pack draining them for 14 life. But then there's times when you desperately need something and all you get are two lonely Elvish Mystics.
Higher density of 4CMC threats is also due to Eldritch Evolution I'm running. Tutor effects are always good and our curve is low enough that we can easily convert dorks we might no longer need into something like Archdruid, Ezuri or Shaman of the Pack. With 4x Elvish Visionary and 4x Dwynen's Elite there are also 8 targets to Evolve into the 4CMC threats. Getting a Colossus against Jund on T2/T3 is pretty sweet. Even better against Grixis since they don't Tarmogoyf's. While Tasigur and Angler are useless you have to be careful about Bolt-Snapcaster-Bolt which kills the Colossus.
Honestly I don't miss Caverns that much at the moment. With the arrival of Blooming Marsh I don't think it's necessary. Along with Gilt-Leaf Palace that's 8 sources of GB which can help us cast spells like Thoughtseize or Stain the Mind which Cavern cannot do. Manawise I think GB is better than GW purely because there is no GW equivalent to Palace. Horizon Canopy does a nice job with the ability to replace itself but taking 1 damage each time you want to cast something can sometimes work against us. Especially if you're running a playset and hit two of them early game.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
Hehe, ya, I have been advocating no Caverns a couple of pages back precisely because of the reasons you mentioned. I think non-creature answers are good for sideboard and you need actual mana to cast them. As you have said, Blooming Marsh is a God send, me thinks.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
I recently came in to the world of competitive magic and have always liked elves. I decided to build an elf deck that I thought would be competitive. I recently came across this forum and was overwhelmed by how many pages there are on this subject! Needless to say, I haven't read them all... But here is what I came up with:
2 Boreal Druid
4 Dwyen's Elite
4 Archdruid
4 Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar elves
4 Visionary
4 Ezuri
3 Sylvan Messenger
2 Shaman of the Pack
1 Riftsweeper
Spells
3 Chord
4 Collected Company
Lands
4 Horizon Canopy
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Nyxthos
2 Llanowar Wastes
3 Forest
1 Temple Garden
1 Pendelhaven
Sideboard
1 Kataki
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Melira
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Spellskite
2 Forge Tender
1 Rest in Piece
1 Stony Silence
1 Gust
1 Path
3 Pay no heed
Sorry for the long post, I'm not sure how to link all the stuff like in previous posts. This is my first post... Still learning the ways.
The 4th Ezuri is probably unnecessary and Riftsweeper really has no purpose. You may consider running some of your SB bullets main in those spots.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
Yes Riftsweeper isn't the greatest but it can answer a living end or anything else with suspend. Which I find can be problematic sometimes.
I guess I'm unfamiliar with what cards are considered bullets in the Sideboard.
The problem with Riftsweeper for Living End is that it is usually cascaded in to and not suspended. If there is a lot of Living End in your area, Viscera Seer or Tajuru Preserver is a better option and those are probably better off in your sideboard since they are pretty narrow cards.
*edit* Bullets would be your chord targets that are there to answer specific problem cards like Forge-Tender for Anger of the Gods or Kataki for affinity.
And I should mention that you should considering running your broad bullets main like Spellskite and Scavenging Ooze. Both of those cards have game against a lot of decks and it would be perfectly reasonable to have them main deck. Then you can use those sideboard slots for cards to answer decks like Living End because a card like Tajuru Preserve is going to be useless against everything but that deck.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG