I was at GP Lille too, and did 10-5 whith a Gwb list. (GW classic with Chords, +2 SotP)
I was wondering about the 4 more dorks that you were running. I had quite never my 1st guy killed, and I don't really understand what it does change on the game plan : if your 1st dork dies, you want to put on some pressure and a mana-maker (including Heritage ?). So, dropping Nettle T2 doesn't seems so bad to me. Did I missed something ? Do you think we would need that extra mana to be sure to cast CoCo or Lead T3 ?
Also, I was playing Sylvan Messenger SB in case I was in a grindy match up : can't be countered with CoS and basically does the same work as Lead the Stampede. Only drawback : you can only squeeze more elfes out of it, so not your silver bullets.
I'm not accustomed to GB with discard and decay : bascially, when do you want to use ressources into those spells ?
If I indeed stated that GB is weak to aggro hate, that was not my intention. As you said, with Lead it's quite the opposite. I'm actually choosing Lead, since with Shaman I want to have every chance for an elfball to finish the game without attacking.
@Everyone
-What are the latest developments with Eldritch Evolution? Is there any consensus regarding what should be included in EE-Elves? Is there a separate quality forum for discussion?
-Could someone knowledgeable and otherwise smart fella update the introduction to the primer? Core, differences between Lead and Chord and also GW and GB, sideboard options, MUs... An up-to-date summary on the very first page could serve as a starting point and could diminish the same questions being asked over and over again from simple people like me People have put in a lot of work developing Elves. Only if this information was gathered together...
Throwing up my top 8 list up for you guys wondering about the GB lists. I have been on GB since Shaman was spoiled and have not been back to GW. GW is popular now, since it is very powerful and speedy, but GB does still pack a punch if you are curious. I have said this last Fall, but I still don't think one is more powerful than the other. I am still on the no-Nettle Sentinel train as you can see from the list. My special tech that I have been discussing here played a role in beating my fourth round opponent. Thought-knot Seer certainly gives us game against control, scapeshift and RG Tron.
Thanks! It is still a work in progress. I am now thinking about switching lead to chords. But, anyway, I digress. It depends on the matchup. I take out the bullets from the mainboard, usually, and if I need speed, I take out the Leads. Does that make sense? Against scapeshift, for example, I took out Scavenging Ooze, Ezuri x1 (since I don't think we will be given a critical mass to over run.), all my Leads (since I believe we should be the aggressor), one mana dork and one Dwynen's Elite for all my thought-knot seers and three thoughtseizes. I crushed my opponent post board.
Basically, all the games i was losing against jund/jeskai in testing were the 2 landers with nettle sentinels where my 2 other mana dorks get killed.
We are playing a 18 lands deck and as such, we often keep one lander. In such hands i just want as many mana dorks as possible to be sure to get things going.
I really think nettle is a combo card and i really don't see this as a combo deck. Most games i won just involved swarming with dudes, and one or two big combat phases.
Most of the decks are either removal heavy, or with almost no removal. In the first case, i think you need all the dorks you can, in the second you just need some of your big cards(archdruid/ezuri/shaman) and i don't think nettle changes that much.
Heritage druid is also the card i board out the most against removal end sweepers, so nettle would be even worse.
Decay is a catch all: i used it this week end to destroy grim lavamancer, chalice of the void, detention sphere, cranial plating which are all problems for the deck.
In some match ups, heritage druid are bad(removal heavy decks), in other visionary are bad(linear decks where you just need to be fast), in other too many dorks is bad(few removal decks like kiki chord).
Thoughtseize is also a catchall answer in the matchups i have too many bad cards, i always prefer cards with multiple uses to single deck hate cards.
I totally and completely and 100% agree with this. I think Nettle has its place and I won't be the one that cries foul about a card that has had success, but my subjective feelings and objective, albeit small, experience has been that Nettle is a combo piece and its benefit (like blocking Goblin Guide) does not out weigh its subpar top deck mid to late game. It is also a week reveal from CoCo and thus, I cut them completely.
@mikeduges: I really like the look of your list. You said you bring TKS in against Combo and Control. What do you usually cut for it?
I'm also curious about Eldritch Evolution and Thought Knot Seer in the board if anyone else has done some testing with them. Looks like a sweet and suprising tech.
I have been testing out Eldritch Evolution since Eldritch Moon was released and I think it's great. There are few 4CMC creatures that I've been testing out with and the ability to tutor them up for mere 3 mana is amazing especially since we can do that on turn two via Heritage/Dwynen's Elite combo. Turning an Elite or Visionary into a Thrun/Colossus/Thought-Knot Seer after they've already given us a 1/1 token or drawn us card is a really powerful play. There is obviously the downside that unlike Chord we cannot do these things at instant speed which changes the approach to the game slightly. Basically you want to spend as much of your mana per turn as possible because the only instant speed card we have is Collected Company. Exceptions being cases where we have Ezuri or some other mana sink in play and we have to play it safe. Or in matchups where we can be punished for over extending. You also have to be careful when playing against a deck with counterspells so they don't 2 for 1 you with a counter.
I used to play with Chord and I think it's a great card but it's problem lies in it's reliability on board presence. For X=3 you need to have at least 3 elves on board which is harder in some matchups than others. Compared to Evolution it's very mana intensive and spending 7 mana on it to tutor for 4CMC card is a lot even for us. Leaving 7 mana up in untapped lands and dorks doesn't advance our plan or our boardstate. Evolution on the other hand will always cost 3 mana (unless Thalia or similar tax effects apply). Sure, we lose the creature (which is actually beneficial against Dredge lists running Bridge from Below as it exiles it) but the advantage it can provide for it's cost is far from shabby. Resolving Evolution grabbing us Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T2/T3 is somewhat similar to UWR resolving Nahiri. Suddenly they're presented with a threat that must be dealt with sooner rather than later. This gives you space and time to advance the rest of the board. Same goes for tutoring up a Thrun against UWR. It can win a game on it's own. I played a game at GP Lille (I'm still working on my report) where I resolved a Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T3. His Kalitas was suddenly useless and a turn later I was able to pump Colossus to 20/20 with Archdruid, two dorks and Heritage Druid on board (4/4 Colossus boosted for +1/+1 Archdruid and 8 mana available to activate it's ability twice). Evolution provides us with a cheap way to win games that we have no business winning.
Playing against Infect? You can "Evolve" a dork into Melira on T2 which is only possible with Chord if you have at least 2 Nettle Sentinels + Heritage on board plus additional 1 drop in hand.
How about Affinity? They've dumped their entire hand on T1? Fetch a Kataki T2 and watch them squirm.
Ad Nauseam? Thought-Knot seer is your best friend. Take away their combo peace and slam down a 4/4 body.
UWR? Go for Thrun.
Living End? Tajuru Perserver is your guy.
Dredge? Yixlid Jailer.
The possibilities are endless.
I hope I'm not overselling the card but I really believe Elves have the full potential to efficiently exploit it. It definitely has it's downsides such as sorcery speed and vulnerability to counters which should be taken into account when considering it's playability. I'd love to see more of you test it out and see how it goes.
@mikeduges: I really like the look of your list. You said you bring TKS in against Combo and Control. What do you usually cut for it?
I'm also curious about Eldritch Evolution and Thought Knot Seer in the board if anyone else has done some testing with them. Looks like a sweet and suprising tech.
I have been testing out Eldritch Evolution since Eldritch Moon was released and I think it's great. There are few 4CMC creatures that I've been testing out with and the ability to tutor them up for mere 3 mana is amazing especially since we can do that on turn two via Heritage/Dwynen's Elite combo. Turning an Elite or Visionary into a Thrun/Colossus/Thought-Knot Seer after they've already given us a 1/1 token or drawn us card is a really powerful play. There is obviously the downside that unlike Chord we cannot do these things at instant speed which changes the approach to the game slightly. Basically you want to spend as much of your mana per turn as possible because the only instant speed card we have is Collected Company. Exceptions being cases where we have Ezuri or some other mana sink in play and we have to play it safe. Or in matchups where we can be punished for over extending. You also have to be careful when playing against a deck with counterspells so they don't 2 for 1 you with a counter.
I used to play with Chord and I think it's a great card but it's problem lies in it's reliability on board presence. For X=3 you need to have at least 3 elves on board which is harder in some matchups than others. Compared to Evolution it's very mana intensive and spending 7 mana on it to tutor for 4CMC card is a lot even for us. Leaving 7 mana up in untapped lands and dorks doesn't advance our plan or our boardstate. Evolution on the other hand will always cost 3 mana (unless Thalia or similar tax effects apply). Sure, we lose the creature (which is actually beneficial against Dredge lists running Bridge from Below as it exiles it) but the advantage it can provide for it's cost is far from shabby. Resolving Evolution grabbing us Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T2/T3 is somewhat similar to UWR resolving Nahiri. Suddenly they're presented with a threat that must be dealt with sooner rather than later. This gives you space and time to advance the rest of the board. Same goes for tutoring up a Thrun against UWR. It can win a game on it's own. I played a game at GP Lille (I'm still working on my report) where I resolved a Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T3. His Kalitas was suddenly useless and a turn later I was able to pump Colossus to 20/20 with Archdruid, two dorks and Heritage Druid on board (4/4 Colossus boosted for +1/+1 Archdruid and 8 mana available to activate it's ability twice). Evolution provides us with a cheap way to win games that we have no business winning.
Playing against Infect? You can "Evolve" a dork into Melira on T2 which is only possible with Chord if you have at least 2 Nettle Sentinels + Heritage on board plus additional 1 drop in hand.
How about Affinity? They've dumped their entire hand on T1? Fetch a Kataki T2 and watch them squirm.
Ad Nauseam? Thought-Knot seer is your best friend. Take away their combo peace and slam down a 4/4 body.
UWR? Go for Thrun.
Living End? Tajuru Perserver is your guy.
Dredge? Yixlid Jailer.
The possibilities are endless.
I hope I'm not overselling the card but I really believe Elves have the full potential to efficiently exploit it. It definitely has it's downsides such as sorcery speed and vulnerability to counters which should be taken into account when considering it's playability. I'd love to see more of you test it out and see how it goes.
This sounds actually quite interesting. I have a GPT this friday (where I don't plan to go to the GP anyways) and might as well test your idea. I plan on playing a GB Lead-build (No Nettles, but Warcallers instead). Maybe GB(w) with Horizon Canopys. And in the Sideboard I want to have 3 Eldritch Evolutions and 8 Silver-Bullets (which makes every silver bullet a playset) plus some Fracturing Gust and Stain the Mind/Thoughtseize (probably just StM if I play Thought-Knot Seer). I am working on a decklist
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Pretty standard GB-Lead list, I had 2 Warcaller in the main before, but with EE in the side we want that extra manadork and I maybe switch the last Warcaller for another 2 drop (probably Spellskite) to help me ramp into my sideboard Chameleon Colossus and have some protection mainboard. I still have 1 slot in the sideboard and I am not sure wether to put the 4th EE or another hatecard (which hatecard) into this spot.
I've played vs. Infect and Abzan-Liege recently. While I don't have an answer to the second deck, Turn 1 Manadork into Turn 2 Evolution, sacrifice the dork and get Melira just wins games. Same might be true for many other matchups where we have a nice toolbox in the sideboard.
I just played 2 matches (will test more) and want to see what cards I can add to the sideboard (maybe I will cut Thrun for another CMC <= 3 drop hatecard such as Aven Mindcensor or Gaddock Teeg. I think we need an answer especially for red decks so maybe Kor Firewalker is good in that spot to fight Nahiri, Moon and Burn
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
If you play EE, do you think you still need to pack 4 SotP ? Basically, EE can turn into a blast spell before a attack ftw.
Sometimes, I don't want to hit SotP, because it has 0 impact on the board state, unlike Ezuri, Champion or even Archdruid. If we play CoCo + Lead (or Chord) + EE, we will definitely be able to search for SotP when needed, while we do not want her in our opening hand, as it is just slowing us down.
I cut it to only 2 MD and it does work well with me.
About TKS : what's the point of running TKS if we have some 2-3 drops that can also hate combo decks ? We would be able to cast it regulary on T2.
How are people finding EE? It seems great, but not many people seem to be trying it out in real life. Everyone still seems on CoCo Chord. Hoping for some sweet Elves in Kaladesh!
@mikeduges: I really like the look of your list. You said you bring TKS in against Combo and Control. What do you usually cut for it?
I'm also curious about Eldritch Evolution and Thought Knot Seer in the board if anyone else has done some testing with them. Looks like a sweet and suprising tech.
I have been testing out Eldritch Evolution since Eldritch Moon was released and I think it's great. There are few 4CMC creatures that I've been testing out with and the ability to tutor them up for mere 3 mana is amazing especially since we can do that on turn two via Heritage/Dwynen's Elite combo. Turning an Elite or Visionary into a Thrun/Colossus/Thought-Knot Seer after they've already given us a 1/1 token or drawn us card is a really powerful play. There is obviously the downside that unlike Chord we cannot do these things at instant speed which changes the approach to the game slightly. Basically you want to spend as much of your mana per turn as possible because the only instant speed card we have is Collected Company. Exceptions being cases where we have Ezuri or some other mana sink in play and we have to play it safe. Or in matchups where we can be punished for over extending. You also have to be careful when playing against a deck with counterspells so they don't 2 for 1 you with a counter.
I used to play with Chord and I think it's a great card but it's problem lies in it's reliability on board presence. For X=3 you need to have at least 3 elves on board which is harder in some matchups than others. Compared to Evolution it's very mana intensive and spending 7 mana on it to tutor for 4CMC card is a lot even for us. Leaving 7 mana up in untapped lands and dorks doesn't advance our plan or our boardstate. Evolution on the other hand will always cost 3 mana (unless Thalia or similar tax effects apply). Sure, we lose the creature (which is actually beneficial against Dredge lists running Bridge from Below as it exiles it) but the advantage it can provide for it's cost is far from shabby. Resolving Evolution grabbing us Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T2/T3 is somewhat similar to UWR resolving Nahiri. Suddenly they're presented with a threat that must be dealt with sooner rather than later. This gives you space and time to advance the rest of the board. Same goes for tutoring up a Thrun against UWR. It can win a game on it's own. I played a game at GP Lille (I'm still working on my report) where I resolved a Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T3. His Kalitas was suddenly useless and a turn later I was able to pump Colossus to 20/20 with Archdruid, two dorks and Heritage Druid on board (4/4 Colossus boosted for +1/+1 Archdruid and 8 mana available to activate it's ability twice). Evolution provides us with a cheap way to win games that we have no business winning.
Playing against Infect? You can "Evolve" a dork into Melira on T2 which is only possible with Chord if you have at least 2 Nettle Sentinels + Heritage on board plus additional 1 drop in hand.
How about Affinity? They've dumped their entire hand on T1? Fetch a Kataki T2 and watch them squirm.
Ad Nauseam? Thought-Knot seer is your best friend. Take away their combo peace and slam down a 4/4 body.
UWR? Go for Thrun.
Living End? Tajuru Perserver is your guy.
Dredge? Yixlid Jailer.
The possibilities are endless.
I hope I'm not overselling the card but I really believe Elves have the full potential to efficiently exploit it. It definitely has it's downsides such as sorcery speed and vulnerability to counters which should be taken into account when considering it's playability. I'd love to see more of you test it out and see how it goes.
This sounds actually quite interesting. I have a GPT this friday (where I don't plan to go to the GP anyways) and might as well test your idea. I plan on playing a GB Lead-build (No Nettles, but Warcallers instead). Maybe GB(w) with Horizon Canopys. And in the Sideboard I want to have 3 Eldritch Evolutions and 8 Silver-Bullets (which makes every silver bullet a playset) plus some Fracturing Gust and Stain the Mind/Thoughtseize (probably just StM if I play Thought-Knot Seer). I am working on a decklist
This is my decklist that I've played with at GP Lille:
If you play EE, do you think you still need to pack 4 SotP ? Basically, EE can turn into a blast spell before a attack ftw.
Sometimes, I don't want to hit SotP, because it has 0 impact on the board state, unlike Ezuri, Champion or even Archdruid. If we play CoCo + Lead (or Chord) + EE, we will definitely be able to search for SotP when needed, while we do not want her in our opening hand, as it is just slowing us down.
I cut it to only 2 MD and it does work well with me.
About TKS : what's the point of running TKS if we have some 2-3 drops that can also hate combo decks ? We would be able to cast it regulary on T2.
I definitely agree. I've dropped down to 3 copies but I think 2 might work just as well. With EE costing only 3 we can easily attack then evolve one of the elves post combat into Shaman. Or like you mentioned, do it precombat then push for lethal via attack.
The advantage from TKS is that we get to see their hand. In order to make optimal decisions you need to have as much information as possible. Knowing what you're up against and having the ability to take their biggest threat makes all the difference. Landing one on T2 can take care of that Anger of the Gods or Damnation sitting in the hand. Or perhaps a problematic combo piece. We all know how degenerate it was back in Eldrazi Winter with all those turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer running rampant off Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple.
Similarly getting Thrun out on T2 against any control is a huge tempo advantage.
How are people finding EE? It seems great, but not many people seem to be trying it out in real life. Everyone still seems on CoCo Chord. Hoping for some sweet Elves in Kaladesh!
Check my post earlier. I've been having success with it and will continue to test it.
I'm also not quite sure if Evolution should be paired with Lead at all since they both occupy 3CMC slot (Chord's CMC varies depending on the target we're after). Lead is great at refilling our hand but that's all it does. It doesn't advance our board. If we're low on lands and dorks, it can take too long to get back online. For example I used to side in/keep in Lead against Jund matchup to use it as a card advantage to counter their high removal count. But they also have creature threats such as Tarmogoyf, Kalitas, Scavenging Ooze and even Dark Confidant if needs be. A good friend of mine pointed out that with Evolution our plan is to bring out Colossus as soon as possible. So I found myself boarding out Leads completely and go for 3/0 split with Evolutions. Almost every time that I've resolved a Colossus it lead to victory. Of course there's always Damnation to watch out
The same probably goes for Grixis Control. Having access to Tasigur and Gurmag Angler can present us with an early clock.
UWR depends on the list. Some lists only run Colonnades and Snapcasters while some versions run Restoration Angel and Geist of Saint Traft. Creature heavy ones should focus on Evolution while those lighter should leave some Leads in or go for a split.
About the list:
The omission of Caverns and 1 Palace are accessibility and budget issues and are not willing decisions.
I intended to swap out all Sentinels for Essence Wardens, but ran out of time sleeving before it was time to start.
Thought-Knot Seer was originally part of the toolbox, but later removed because I would want it against decks with wipes and it would take Duress's slot, but I do not want to swap out Lead the Stampede in match ups with wipes. In addition, decks aiming to prolong the game with wipes would usually have spot removal: spending 2 cards to get 1 4/4 and take their card is fine until they remove it and draw, make it a 3 for 2 trade. Not the best scenario.
The games:
MU1 - Esper Control - Loss
Game 1 I take fairly easily with a small party of elves plus a Shaman. I force his Cryptic Commands with my combat phase before resolving things afterward.
SB: 2 Duress IN, Westvale Abbey, Essence Warden OUT
In game 2 I try to keep a small party on the board to bait wipes, but what do ya know he draws 3 of them. I don't draw the extra Leads I need to sustain pressure and he gets to his endgame of Sphinx's Revelations and Snap-Cryptics. Its not pretty.
I basically throw Game 3 away by making a rookie mistake: trying to go off on turn 3 when he has 1 mana up. At the opportune time he paths my Heritage Druid, stopping the Elfstorm and then following up with a wipe on turn 4. I struggle a few more turns afterward but he gets to the endgame again. I really have to be more disciplined about when I try to Storm, even if the hand is tempting. (L)
MU2 - 8Whack - Win
Game 1 I mull to 4, and the game is pretty much over by turn 2 or so. I draw nothing but 1-drops which can't stem a tide of evergrowing Eyeblights. I collect into an Essence Warden, but its too little too late and a Piledriver comes down with Chieftain already on the board.
SB: 3 Eldritch Evolution IN, 1 Kalitas IN, 1 Dwynen, Gilt Leaf Daen IN, 4 Leads, 1 Shaman, 1 Nettle Sentinel OUT
This would have been so much easier with 4 Essence Wardens. But well, leads are too slow and I'm not interested in trading Sentinel for Guide. So out went 1 Sentinel. I draw my 7, ship the one lander and see: Fetch, Palace, Evo, Evo, Dork, Visionary. Keep! So obviously, the highlight here is a turn 2 Visionary into turn 3 Evo into Kalitas. Opponent throws 2 bolts at it, but that's all I wanted to see. 2 Turns later I evo a Dwynen's Elite into Dwynen herself. (Flavor wise that's really weird.) Having expended too much gas and now facing another 3/4 with lifegain, he scoops.
I'd love to say Kalitas made an appearance game 3, but he doesn't. Elfstorm happens and I take the game off the back of a 10 damage Shaman and an overwhelming board position. Kalitas is amazing in aggro match ups. I can't wait to test him against Burn.(W)
MU3 - Affinity - Win
Game 1 is over by turn 2. He has one of those hands with an Overseer and multiple fliers. Grr.
SB: 3 Evolution, 1 Kataki, 2 Fracturing Gust IN, 4 Leads, 1 Shaman, 1 Visionary OUT
Speed, we need more speed.
Here's my starting 7 for game 2: Fetch, Garden, Evo, Dork, 3 other things (yea who even cares). Turn 1 Dork, turn 2 Evo the dork into Kataki. Yeap. Opponent actually makes a decent job of squeezing 2 +1/+1 counters onto a Vault Skirge, but it doesn't buy enough time. Given the luxury of time, I build a board in 2 turns and kill somewhere on turn 5.
And here's my starting 7 for game 3: Palace, Llanowar Wastes, Evo, Dork and who cares what else? Turn 2 Kataki appears! No red mana? That's a toughie. He draws into a Arcbound and manages to make a 5/5 Inkmoth, but again his valiant efforts are hampered by a severe resource constraint. In the time he takes to do that, I've built lethal. (W)
Summary: Yea. I'm not going back to Chords.
Turn 2 Anafenza against Dredge/Living End, Kataki against Affinity, Kalitas against Burn/Zoo is just broken. Against these guys we are hardpressed to be faster, but an early silver bullet can really throw them off their main game. I don't miss Sentinels and will probably be switching to Essence Wardens for Easy Mode against Burn and other such Aggro decks.
How do you resove a TKS T2 ? I only see the line Heritage T1 into Elite T2, tap for 3, Evolution into TKS. But that's a 3 card 'combo' (that still needs 2 lands), so I think it won't happen very often. On top of that, Druid must survive T1. Most of the time, we will have to wait until T3, and sac' the 2 drop (if we had one). That's why I was considering 3-drop cards better than TKS on the paper.
By the way, with the line of play that brings TKS on the board T3, it is still vunerable to pyroclasm or even Anger (if you're on the draw). And it makes you 'loose' an attack phase. (Okay, you will attack, but for not much... 2-4 at best.) What bugs me more in that line, is that on top of being still vulnerable to removals, T4 attack phase is going to be weak.
In a nutshell, what I do not like with this play, is the outcome and slow : you sacrifice a lot of speed in order to do a discard 1 and put a 4/4 beater who has no interaction with our elves.
I'm wondering : why not 'simply' resolve a discard spell ? Or having creatures + manas up on T3 to chord into (inter beater or hate card) at instant speed ? That way, you don't have to act proactively, but reactively, according to what opponent is playing during his turn. It will be as fast as to put a TKS on the board, plus it will not cost 1 creature to sac.
EDIT : I can't think of MU that we can't hate with a 3 manas card so far...
You're right. That is the only way to resolve it on T2. But from my experience T1 Heritage into T2 Dwynen's Elite + 3CMC spell isn't that uncommon. Most of the times you can bring it down on T3. T1 dork, T2 Elite/Visionary, T3 Evolution into 4-drop. There are downsides to Evolution being sorcery speed and requiring a 2CMC creature to evolve into 4CMC so you need to know when it pays off the most to cast it. It's effect is particularly good against combo matchups where you tutor him up and take away their combo piece. You don't bring him in against aggro though because as you've mentioned, it's too slow.
The difference between TKS and discard spells is that those can't be tutored for. Having 4 copies of Evolution along with TKS means "five" copies of discard on a 4/4 beater which only takes up one SB slot. Running Thoughtseize for example means you're using up 2-3 SB slots for a discard spell that needs to be in your opening hand. It's also a bad topdeck whereas Evolution drawn later in the game lets you evolve a dork into Shaman for the win. Thoughtseize is also B and 1CMC spell which means you need to choose to either cast dork or TS on turn 1. Sometimes casting it on T2 might already be too late. And there is the 2 life loss. Paired with a fetch for Overgrown Tomb it means you're losing 5 life which sometimes you just can't afford.
Chord is always a lot more mana intensive. Leaving creatures + lands up for a Chord also means you're losing out on your attack phase. If you tutor something up EoT and they kill it, you wasted an entire turn. Which is why we're after high value targets with Evolution so that when we resolve it, we force the opponent to react to it. I strongly believe that Elves strength lies in us being as proactive as possible. When we slam down a threat like Thrun or Colossus, they're forced to deal with it. If they ignore it and continue with their normal game plan, it might be too late for them.
I'm not sure whether you're just against Thought-Knot Seer or Evolution in general
Do you have any suggestions for 3CMC cards that you had in mind?
I'm not against TKS nor Evolution individually. I'm just not fond of the play Evolution into TKS... which makes TKS a bad toolbox card for me.
Well, there are a lot of hate cards for 2-3 against combo : Eidolon of Rhetoric, Ethersorwn Canonist, Phyrexian Revoker, but also Magus of the Moon (T2 Evolution into Magus seems a strong play to me) and, if you want discard, Sin collector.
I feel TKS is more a card that you want to cast, rather than Evolution into. Michael Dugan (6th at StarCityGames.com Invitational Qualifier on 8/27/2016) for example, plays 4 of them in SB. I haven't tested, but for me, it's a card he wants to cast. (Btw, he isn't even playing Evolution.)
Good point. I haven't thought about it this way. The problem I have with the mentioned cards is that they're all weak to removal and don't present a clock by themselves. I'd argue Magus of the Moon is the strongest of the bunch since it can completely shut off certain decks. When I was looking for potential Evolution targets (especially 4CMC ones) I wanted to squeeze as much out of them as possible. Turning a dork into Revoker doesn't feel as powerful as turning Visionary/Elite into Colossus/Thrun/TKS.
- Ad Nauseam : Eidolon slows him quite a lot (he needs to cast Unlife during his turns, pass, cast Ad Nauseam during our turn, them Storm during his turn). That's a lot of 8 manas. And casting Lotus Bloom would slow him even more, since he won't be able to cast anything else when it resolves. (Giving you plenty of time to kill him or just Reclamation Sage into UnLife)
If you 'only' TKS, you'll remove 1 of his combo card... and he might just draw it again thanks to visions, spoils of the vault, redundancy (4 Unlife, 4 Angel).
- Storm : here again, from my little experience, Storm won't care about you resolving a TKS. He will get rid of 1 card and then what ? Eidolon is a hard call for him, he could only try to Volley.
- Living End : getting rid of 1 card of living end is, on the paper, more useless than in the 2 previous : the deck can cycle like crazy and plays up to 8 of his killing cards. On the other hand, it doesn't play a lot of spot removals (up to 3 MD, 6 post-side). It's still less outs. And casting a removal takes a whole turn most of the time (2-3 manas) during which he won't resolve a cascade.
Chording Eidolon as a resp of a cascad trigger is quite a free win btw.
Otherwise, just Scooze his grave to slow him : we have enough mana to do it.
- Infect : T3 TKS is a bit slow I'd guess. And not as decisive as Melira or Magus. Or Spellskite.
- Breachift : Well, 1 card combo playing with Titan and Scapeshift than can both ruin us. Best would be to speed up. Why not trying to resolve a Magus.
In that particuliar MU, I'd consider the play as a good one. Since Breachift/Scapeshift plays a lot of Wrath-like (engineered explo, Anger...), TKS would be a disrupt AND a beatdown more consistent than our elves.
Against any kind of controle deck, I wouldn't consider playing EE if not to bring a Magus T2. Even then, I usually prefer to have Sylvan Messenger than Chord or EE, because it will make a great CA and is not counterable under CoS.
Fair points. Most of my inexperience regarding combo decks stems for the fact that there are almost none in my local meta. There's someone playing Ad Nauseam that shows up every now and then, Storm is non-existent as is Living End. Against Living End there's Tajuru Preserver or if you're feeling cheeky evolve a 3CMC into Sigarda, Host of Herons.
The biggest advantage in playing TKS is that you get to see their hand which allows you to play your subsequent turns accordingly. If you take away their Anger for example and see they have 1 bolt and Negate in hand, that means you won't be wasting 4 mana casting CoCo unless he's tapped. Instead you go for a different play depending on the information you have at hand.
I'll definitely take all your notes into account for my future testing but for now I'm sticking with TKS. Maybe Kaladesh will provide us with a sweet 4CMC threat, preferably an Elf
I played a GW classic + 2 SotP. SB is quite only silver bullets to get on CoCo or Chord. I play Chord over EE or Lead because of that Silver Bullet SB and because having a board untap during my opponent's turn allow to react the best possible way. Counter his Wrath (BTF, Selfless Spirit), his combo (Revoker, Eidolon), his mana (Revoker, Magus) (...) or, if he doesn't try to disrupt us, I go for a lethal card. Most of the time, Ezuri or if I already have one, Archdruid. Champion is also an option. And when I untap, it is often game.
But Chord is often slow (T3 Chord usually), and I sometimes wanted to use something to bring a silver bullet (especially Magus) faster. EE can be good, especially in SB, when heavy & fast disrupt is needed. I wouldn't play it MD thus, but it's just my personnal feeling about the card.
I'm not used to Lead the Stampede. I often thought that it's not a race card, more a CA card, needed when our elves are under a rain of removals. (Well, in fact, just few removals targeting the lords are enough for me to want this :p). Thus, it's a card I'd gladly play SB. But I haven't so much slots, and I don't know what to take out.
My final word is that I got by Affinity (0-2 / 1-2 / 1-2). Those are the only one-way matchs that I lost in Lille. May I know what are your sideboard techs and priorities in that particular MU ?
Well, you guys can refer to my last post regarding the omission of TKS from my toolbox and why. Also why i am never going back to Chords. EE lets us do things that Chord can only dream about (or, do much later in the game AKA too late).
Thought-Knot Seer was originally part of the toolbox, but later removed because I would want it against decks with wipes and it would take Duress's slot, but I do not want to swap out Lead the Stampede in match ups with wipes. In addition, decks aiming to prolong the game with wipes would usually have spot removal: spending 2 cards to get 1 4/4 and take their card is fine until they remove it and draw, make it a 3 for 2 trade. Not the best scenario.
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Well, you guys can refer to my last post regarding the omission of TKS from my toolbox and why. Also why i am never going back to Chords. EE lets us do things that Chord can only dream about (or, do much later in the game AKA too late).
Thought-Knot Seer was originally part of the toolbox, but later removed because I would want it against decks with wipes and it would take Duress's slot, but I do not want to swap out Lead the Stampede in match ups with wipes. In addition, decks aiming to prolong the game with wipes would usually have spot removal: spending 2 cards to get 1 4/4 and take their card is fine until they remove it and draw, make it a 3 for 2 trade. Not the best scenario.
Very good points. If we're worried about removal then perhaps Sin Collector is a better choice and it doesn't require a 2CMC to evolve.
Well, you guys can refer to my last post regarding the omission of TKS from my toolbox and why. Also why i am never going back to Chords. EE lets us do things that Chord can only dream about (or, do much later in the game AKA too late).
Thought-Knot Seer was originally part of the toolbox, but later removed because I would want it against decks with wipes and it would take Duress's slot, but I do not want to swap out Lead the Stampede in match ups with wipes. In addition, decks aiming to prolong the game with wipes would usually have spot removal: spending 2 cards to get 1 4/4 and take their card is fine until they remove it and draw, make it a 3 for 2 trade. Not the best scenario.
Chord can Do Things EE can not do. Chord in response to anger or pyroclasm or wrath for forge tender or selfless spirit. With ee you need to have them on board a turn earlier. But I still like ee and will test it the next time I play fnm as a replacement for my sb chords. I will test 4 essence warden in place of nettles as well because of this aggro heavy meta.
Which silver bullets are most important in an unknown meta? I think of scooze, kataki, reclamation sage, Melina and spellskite?
You're right. But this is why you need to play differently with Evolution. Chord gives you the option to play reactively and protect yourself against sweepers. Without instant speed answer, you just have to be careful and have 1-2 threats on board which eventually forces them to waste their Anger/Damnation and you're ready to rebuild afterwards. Wrath effects are a little harder to counter but with 4 power threats like Chameleon Colossus you don't have to worry as much about Anger.
I'd say the ones you listed are the most important. Melira deals with Infect and Affinity if needed, Kataki for Affinity, Reclamation Sage as a catch all enchantment/artifact removal, Spellskite is great against all removal. Kitchen Finks is another great option. With Dredge on the rise it might also be worth looking into Anafenza, the Foremost or Yixlid Jailer.
I think this leaves me prepared for most of the matchups with Lead and Scooze vs grindy decks (Jund, Abzan) in the maindeck and toolbox for everything else in the side
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender (Nahiri, Mardu-Control, Scapeshift, GR Tron, Moon, Burn, Storm)
1 Kataki, War's Wage (Affinity, Lantern, Tron, Ad Nauseam, Thopter-Sword)
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast (Infect, Affinity)
1 Spellskite (Burn, Infect, Bogles, Death Shadow, Abzan, Jund, Control)
1 Selfless Spirit (Burn, Control, Abzen, Jund, Moon, Scapeshift, G/R Tron
1 Reclamation Sage (Affinity, Lantern, Tron, Ad Nauseam, Thopter-Sword, Bogles, Prison)
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric (Storm, Taking Turns, Ad Nauseam, Living End)
1 Aven Mindcensor (Tron, Nahiri, Scapeshift, Company, Kiki-Evolution, Bring to Light)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (Nahiri, Control, Abzan, Jund)
1 Chameleon Colossus (black decks, Jund, Abzan, Grixis)
2 Fracturing Gust (Affinity, Lantern, Tron, Ad Nauseam, Thopter-Sword, Bogles, Prison)
3 Eldritch Evolution (EVERYTIME)
Did I miss something? Any suggestions appreciated <3 I might want to add a anafenza and cut the Thrun maybe because I expect more Dredge. Would you cut something else?
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Well, you guys can refer to my last post regarding the omission of TKS from my toolbox and why. Also why i am never going back to Chords. EE lets us do things that Chord can only dream about (or, do much later in the game AKA too late).
Thought-Knot Seer was originally part of the toolbox, but later removed because I would want it against decks with wipes and it would take Duress's slot, but I do not want to swap out Lead the Stampede in match ups with wipes. In addition, decks aiming to prolong the game with wipes would usually have spot removal: spending 2 cards to get 1 4/4 and take their card is fine until they remove it and draw, make it a 3 for 2 trade. Not the best scenario.
Chord can Do Things EE can not do. Chord in response to anger or pyroclasm or wrath for forge tender or selfless spirit. With ee you need to have them on board a turn earlier. But I still like ee and will test it the next time I play fnm as a replacement for my sb chords. I will test 4 essence warden in place of nettles as well because of this aggro heavy meta.
Which silver bullets are most important in an unknown meta? I think of scooze, kataki, reclamation sage, Melina and spellskite?
Because I'm running 4 leads main, 3 EE side and 0 chords, my deck's plan against wipes is not to try and "counter" them with a bullet. I used to try and do that and it feels really clunky having to hold up a chord for 2 on the opponent's turn. We're trying to be aggro and holding back precious combat phases for that "just in case" can be exactly what they want us to do.
My comeback plan for wipes is already maindeck: Lead the Stampede. Sideboarding against Supreme Verdict decks for me involves boarding in 2 copies of Duress and not much else.
In an unknown meta, you're looking at your tier 1 culprits. So that's
Jund - If you're a Chord deck, u need selfless spirit then. Chameleon Colossus evades all spot removal.
Affinity - Kataki and Fracturing Gust
Infect - Melira.
Burn - Essence Warden(s). EE decks also have Dwynen and Kalitas within easy reach.
Dredge - Anafenza, the Foremost, Scavenging Ooze and Kalitas.
Jeskai Nahiri - Aven Mindcensor. Duresses. Chord decks will want Selfless Spirit or Burrenton Forge Tender.
Suicide Zoo - Essence Warden(s). Feeling spicy? Glissa, the Traitor.
Merfolk - We're already favored, but Essence Wardens can make the damage race even more lopsided. Add in Dwynen if you're a sadist.
Eldrazi - Same as merfolk.
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I was at GP Lille too, and did 10-5 whith a Gwb list. (GW classic with Chords, +2 SotP)
I was wondering about the 4 more dorks that you were running. I had quite never my 1st guy killed, and I don't really understand what it does change on the game plan : if your 1st dork dies, you want to put on some pressure and a mana-maker (including Heritage ?). So, dropping Nettle T2 doesn't seems so bad to me. Did I missed something ? Do you think we would need that extra mana to be sure to cast CoCo or Lead T3 ?
Also, I was playing Sylvan Messenger SB in case I was in a grindy match up : can't be countered with CoS and basically does the same work as Lead the Stampede. Only drawback : you can only squeeze more elfes out of it, so not your silver bullets.
I'm not accustomed to GB with discard and decay : bascially, when do you want to use ressources into those spells ?
Palefang Dawnfall
Huge thanks for a fast and thorough response!
If I indeed stated that GB is weak to aggro hate, that was not my intention. As you said, with Lead it's quite the opposite. I'm actually choosing Lead, since with Shaman I want to have every chance for an elfball to finish the game without attacking.
@Everyone
-What are the latest developments with Eldritch Evolution? Is there any consensus regarding what should be included in EE-Elves? Is there a separate quality forum for discussion?
-Could someone knowledgeable and otherwise smart fella update the introduction to the primer? Core, differences between Lead and Chord and also GW and GB, sideboard options, MUs... An up-to-date summary on the very first page could serve as a starting point and could diminish the same questions being asked over and over again from simple people like me People have put in a lot of work developing Elves. Only if this information was gathered together...
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Thanks! It is still a work in progress. I am now thinking about switching lead to chords. But, anyway, I digress. It depends on the matchup. I take out the bullets from the mainboard, usually, and if I need speed, I take out the Leads. Does that make sense? Against scapeshift, for example, I took out Scavenging Ooze, Ezuri x1 (since I don't think we will be given a critical mass to over run.), all my Leads (since I believe we should be the aggressor), one mana dork and one Dwynen's Elite for all my thought-knot seers and three thoughtseizes. I crushed my opponent post board.
I totally and completely and 100% agree with this. I think Nettle has its place and I won't be the one that cries foul about a card that has had success, but my subjective feelings and objective, albeit small, experience has been that Nettle is a combo piece and its benefit (like blocking Goblin Guide) does not out weigh its subpar top deck mid to late game. It is also a week reveal from CoCo and thus, I cut them completely.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
I have been testing out Eldritch Evolution since Eldritch Moon was released and I think it's great. There are few 4CMC creatures that I've been testing out with and the ability to tutor them up for mere 3 mana is amazing especially since we can do that on turn two via Heritage/Dwynen's Elite combo. Turning an Elite or Visionary into a Thrun/Colossus/Thought-Knot Seer after they've already given us a 1/1 token or drawn us card is a really powerful play. There is obviously the downside that unlike Chord we cannot do these things at instant speed which changes the approach to the game slightly. Basically you want to spend as much of your mana per turn as possible because the only instant speed card we have is Collected Company. Exceptions being cases where we have Ezuri or some other mana sink in play and we have to play it safe. Or in matchups where we can be punished for over extending. You also have to be careful when playing against a deck with counterspells so they don't 2 for 1 you with a counter.
I used to play with Chord and I think it's a great card but it's problem lies in it's reliability on board presence. For X=3 you need to have at least 3 elves on board which is harder in some matchups than others. Compared to Evolution it's very mana intensive and spending 7 mana on it to tutor for 4CMC card is a lot even for us. Leaving 7 mana up in untapped lands and dorks doesn't advance our plan or our boardstate. Evolution on the other hand will always cost 3 mana (unless Thalia or similar tax effects apply). Sure, we lose the creature (which is actually beneficial against Dredge lists running Bridge from Below as it exiles it) but the advantage it can provide for it's cost is far from shabby. Resolving Evolution grabbing us Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T2/T3 is somewhat similar to UWR resolving Nahiri. Suddenly they're presented with a threat that must be dealt with sooner rather than later. This gives you space and time to advance the rest of the board. Same goes for tutoring up a Thrun against UWR. It can win a game on it's own. I played a game at GP Lille (I'm still working on my report) where I resolved a Chameleon Colossus against Jund on T3. His Kalitas was suddenly useless and a turn later I was able to pump Colossus to 20/20 with Archdruid, two dorks and Heritage Druid on board (4/4 Colossus boosted for +1/+1 Archdruid and 8 mana available to activate it's ability twice). Evolution provides us with a cheap way to win games that we have no business winning.
Playing against Infect? You can "Evolve" a dork into Melira on T2 which is only possible with Chord if you have at least 2 Nettle Sentinels + Heritage on board plus additional 1 drop in hand.
How about Affinity? They've dumped their entire hand on T1? Fetch a Kataki T2 and watch them squirm.
Ad Nauseam? Thought-Knot seer is your best friend. Take away their combo peace and slam down a 4/4 body.
UWR? Go for Thrun.
Living End? Tajuru Perserver is your guy.
Dredge? Yixlid Jailer.
The possibilities are endless.
I hope I'm not overselling the card but I really believe Elves have the full potential to efficiently exploit it. It definitely has it's downsides such as sorcery speed and vulnerability to counters which should be taken into account when considering it's playability. I'd love to see more of you test it out and see how it goes.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
This sounds actually quite interesting. I have a GPT this friday (where I don't plan to go to the GP anyways) and might as well test your idea. I plan on playing a GB Lead-build (No Nettles, but Warcallers instead). Maybe GB(w) with Horizon Canopys. And in the Sideboard I want to have 3 Eldritch Evolutions and 8 Silver-Bullets (which makes every silver bullet a playset) plus some Fracturing Gust and Stain the Mind/Thoughtseize (probably just StM if I play Thought-Knot Seer). I am working on a decklist
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
1 Joraga Warcaller
1 Boreal Druid
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Shaman of the Pack
4 Collected Company
3 Lead the Stampede
Lands:19
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Pendelhaven
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Spellskite
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Eldritch Evolution
Pretty standard GB-Lead list, I had 2 Warcaller in the main before, but with EE in the side we want that extra manadork and I maybe switch the last Warcaller for another 2 drop (probably Spellskite) to help me ramp into my sideboard Chameleon Colossus and have some protection mainboard. I still have 1 slot in the sideboard and I am not sure wether to put the 4th EE or another hatecard (which hatecard) into this spot.
I've played vs. Infect and Abzan-Liege recently. While I don't have an answer to the second deck, Turn 1 Manadork into Turn 2 Evolution, sacrifice the dork and get Melira just wins games. Same might be true for many other matchups where we have a nice toolbox in the sideboard.
I just played 2 matches (will test more) and want to see what cards I can add to the sideboard (maybe I will cut Thrun for another CMC <= 3 drop hatecard such as Aven Mindcensor or Gaddock Teeg. I think we need an answer especially for red decks so maybe Kor Firewalker is good in that spot to fight Nahiri, Moon and Burn
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Thanks for answer
@kavselj
If you play EE, do you think you still need to pack 4 SotP ? Basically, EE can turn into a blast spell before a attack ftw.
Sometimes, I don't want to hit SotP, because it has 0 impact on the board state, unlike Ezuri, Champion or even Archdruid. If we play CoCo + Lead (or Chord) + EE, we will definitely be able to search for SotP when needed, while we do not want her in our opening hand, as it is just slowing us down.
I cut it to only 2 MD and it does work well with me.
About TKS : what's the point of running TKS if we have some 2-3 drops that can also hate combo decks ? We would be able to cast it regulary on T2.
Palefang Dawnfall
BW Eldrazi & Taxes
BG Collected Company Elves
Legacy
W Death and Taxes
EDH
GW Sigarda, Host of Herons
GW Saffi Eriksdotter
A Selfless Spirit type card that is an elf. Sigh. One can dream...
Eladamri, Lord of Leaves type card in modern except with hexproof. Like an elf Lord of the unreal would be nice too
This is my decklist that I've played with at GP Lille:
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Heritage Druid
4x Elvish Visionary
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
3x Shaman of the Pack
1x Sylvan Messenger
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Spellskite
1x Reclamation Sage
4x Collected Company
2x Lead the Stampede
2x Eldritch Evolution
Lands (18):
4x Cavern of Souls
4x Forest
3x Windswept Heath
2x Razorverge Thicket
2x Horizon Canopy
1x Temple Garden
1x Overgrown Tomb
1x Pendelhaven
2x Path to Exile
2x Fracturing Gust
1x Chameleon Colossus
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Kitchen Finks
1x Elvish Champion
1x Thrun, the Last Troll
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Thought-Knot Seer
1x Dwynen, Gilt-Leaf Daen
1x Lead the Stampede
1x Eldritch Evolution
I definitely agree. I've dropped down to 3 copies but I think 2 might work just as well. With EE costing only 3 we can easily attack then evolve one of the elves post combat into Shaman. Or like you mentioned, do it precombat then push for lethal via attack.
The advantage from TKS is that we get to see their hand. In order to make optimal decisions you need to have as much information as possible. Knowing what you're up against and having the ability to take their biggest threat makes all the difference. Landing one on T2 can take care of that Anger of the Gods or Damnation sitting in the hand. Or perhaps a problematic combo piece. We all know how degenerate it was back in Eldrazi Winter with all those turn 2 Thought-Knot Seer running rampant off Eye of Ugin and Eldrazi Temple.
Similarly getting Thrun out on T2 against any control is a huge tempo advantage.
Check my post earlier. I've been having success with it and will continue to test it.
I'm also not quite sure if Evolution should be paired with Lead at all since they both occupy 3CMC slot (Chord's CMC varies depending on the target we're after). Lead is great at refilling our hand but that's all it does. It doesn't advance our board. If we're low on lands and dorks, it can take too long to get back online. For example I used to side in/keep in Lead against Jund matchup to use it as a card advantage to counter their high removal count. But they also have creature threats such as Tarmogoyf, Kalitas, Scavenging Ooze and even Dark Confidant if needs be. A good friend of mine pointed out that with Evolution our plan is to bring out Colossus as soon as possible. So I found myself boarding out Leads completely and go for 3/0 split with Evolutions. Almost every time that I've resolved a Colossus it lead to victory. Of course there's always Damnation to watch out
The same probably goes for Grixis Control. Having access to Tasigur and Gurmag Angler can present us with an early clock.
UWR depends on the list. Some lists only run Colonnades and Snapcasters while some versions run Restoration Angel and Geist of Saint Traft. Creature heavy ones should focus on Evolution while those lighter should leave some Leads in or go for a split.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
1 Essence Warden
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Lead the Stampede
4 Collected Company
Real Estate (18)
3 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Pendelhaven
1 Westvale Abbey
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Temple Garden
4 Llanowar Wastes
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
2 Duress
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Eldritch Evolution
1 Kalitas, Traitor of Ghet
1 Dwynen, Gilt-leaf Daen
1 Anafenza, the Foremost
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
About the list:
The omission of Caverns and 1 Palace are accessibility and budget issues and are not willing decisions.
I intended to swap out all Sentinels for Essence Wardens, but ran out of time sleeving before it was time to start.
Thought-Knot Seer was originally part of the toolbox, but later removed because I would want it against decks with wipes and it would take Duress's slot, but I do not want to swap out Lead the Stampede in match ups with wipes. In addition, decks aiming to prolong the game with wipes would usually have spot removal: spending 2 cards to get 1 4/4 and take their card is fine until they remove it and draw, make it a 3 for 2 trade. Not the best scenario.
The games:
MU1 - Esper Control - Loss
Game 1 I take fairly easily with a small party of elves plus a Shaman. I force his Cryptic Commands with my combat phase before resolving things afterward.
SB: 2 Duress IN, Westvale Abbey, Essence Warden OUT
In game 2 I try to keep a small party on the board to bait wipes, but what do ya know he draws 3 of them. I don't draw the extra Leads I need to sustain pressure and he gets to his endgame of Sphinx's Revelations and Snap-Cryptics. Its not pretty.
I basically throw Game 3 away by making a rookie mistake: trying to go off on turn 3 when he has 1 mana up. At the opportune time he paths my Heritage Druid, stopping the Elfstorm and then following up with a wipe on turn 4. I struggle a few more turns afterward but he gets to the endgame again. I really have to be more disciplined about when I try to Storm, even if the hand is tempting. (L)
MU2 - 8Whack - Win
Game 1 I mull to 4, and the game is pretty much over by turn 2 or so. I draw nothing but 1-drops which can't stem a tide of evergrowing Eyeblights. I collect into an Essence Warden, but its too little too late and a Piledriver comes down with Chieftain already on the board.
SB: 3 Eldritch Evolution IN, 1 Kalitas IN, 1 Dwynen, Gilt Leaf Daen IN, 4 Leads, 1 Shaman, 1 Nettle Sentinel OUT
This would have been so much easier with 4 Essence Wardens. But well, leads are too slow and I'm not interested in trading Sentinel for Guide. So out went 1 Sentinel. I draw my 7, ship the one lander and see: Fetch, Palace, Evo, Evo, Dork, Visionary. Keep! So obviously, the highlight here is a turn 2 Visionary into turn 3 Evo into Kalitas. Opponent throws 2 bolts at it, but that's all I wanted to see. 2 Turns later I evo a Dwynen's Elite into Dwynen herself. (Flavor wise that's really weird.) Having expended too much gas and now facing another 3/4 with lifegain, he scoops.
I'd love to say Kalitas made an appearance game 3, but he doesn't. Elfstorm happens and I take the game off the back of a 10 damage Shaman and an overwhelming board position. Kalitas is amazing in aggro match ups. I can't wait to test him against Burn.(W)
MU3 - Affinity - Win
Game 1 is over by turn 2. He has one of those hands with an Overseer and multiple fliers. Grr.
SB: 3 Evolution, 1 Kataki, 2 Fracturing Gust IN, 4 Leads, 1 Shaman, 1 Visionary OUT
Speed, we need more speed.
Here's my starting 7 for game 2: Fetch, Garden, Evo, Dork, 3 other things (yea who even cares). Turn 1 Dork, turn 2 Evo the dork into Kataki. Yeap. Opponent actually makes a decent job of squeezing 2 +1/+1 counters onto a Vault Skirge, but it doesn't buy enough time. Given the luxury of time, I build a board in 2 turns and kill somewhere on turn 5.
And here's my starting 7 for game 3: Palace, Llanowar Wastes, Evo, Dork and who cares what else? Turn 2 Kataki appears! No red mana? That's a toughie. He draws into a Arcbound and manages to make a 5/5 Inkmoth, but again his valiant efforts are hampered by a severe resource constraint. In the time he takes to do that, I've built lethal. (W)
Summary: Yea. I'm not going back to Chords.
Turn 2 Anafenza against Dredge/Living End, Kataki against Affinity, Kalitas against Burn/Zoo is just broken. Against these guys we are hardpressed to be faster, but an early silver bullet can really throw them off their main game. I don't miss Sentinels and will probably be switching to Essence Wardens for Easy Mode against Burn and other such Aggro decks.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
How do you resove a TKS T2 ? I only see the line Heritage T1 into Elite T2, tap for 3, Evolution into TKS. But that's a 3 card 'combo' (that still needs 2 lands), so I think it won't happen very often. On top of that, Druid must survive T1. Most of the time, we will have to wait until T3, and sac' the 2 drop (if we had one). That's why I was considering 3-drop cards better than TKS on the paper.
By the way, with the line of play that brings TKS on the board T3, it is still vunerable to pyroclasm or even Anger (if you're on the draw). And it makes you 'loose' an attack phase. (Okay, you will attack, but for not much... 2-4 at best.) What bugs me more in that line, is that on top of being still vulnerable to removals, T4 attack phase is going to be weak.
In a nutshell, what I do not like with this play, is the outcome and slow : you sacrifice a lot of speed in order to do a discard 1 and put a 4/4 beater who has no interaction with our elves.
I'm wondering : why not 'simply' resolve a discard spell ? Or having creatures + manas up on T3 to chord into (inter beater or hate card) at instant speed ? That way, you don't have to act proactively, but reactively, according to what opponent is playing during his turn. It will be as fast as to put a TKS on the board, plus it will not cost 1 creature to sac.
EDIT : I can't think of MU that we can't hate with a 3 manas card so far...
Palefang Dawnfall
The difference between TKS and discard spells is that those can't be tutored for. Having 4 copies of Evolution along with TKS means "five" copies of discard on a 4/4 beater which only takes up one SB slot. Running Thoughtseize for example means you're using up 2-3 SB slots for a discard spell that needs to be in your opening hand. It's also a bad topdeck whereas Evolution drawn later in the game lets you evolve a dork into Shaman for the win. Thoughtseize is also B and 1CMC spell which means you need to choose to either cast dork or TS on turn 1. Sometimes casting it on T2 might already be too late. And there is the 2 life loss. Paired with a fetch for Overgrown Tomb it means you're losing 5 life which sometimes you just can't afford.
Chord is always a lot more mana intensive. Leaving creatures + lands up for a Chord also means you're losing out on your attack phase. If you tutor something up EoT and they kill it, you wasted an entire turn. Which is why we're after high value targets with Evolution so that when we resolve it, we force the opponent to react to it. I strongly believe that Elves strength lies in us being as proactive as possible. When we slam down a threat like Thrun or Colossus, they're forced to deal with it. If they ignore it and continue with their normal game plan, it might be too late for them.
I'm not sure whether you're just against Thought-Knot Seer or Evolution in general
Do you have any suggestions for 3CMC cards that you had in mind?
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
I'm not against TKS nor Evolution individually. I'm just not fond of the play Evolution into TKS... which makes TKS a bad toolbox card for me.
Well, there are a lot of hate cards for 2-3 against combo : Eidolon of Rhetoric, Ethersorwn Canonist, Phyrexian Revoker, but also Magus of the Moon (T2 Evolution into Magus seems a strong play to me) and, if you want discard, Sin collector.
I feel TKS is more a card that you want to cast, rather than Evolution into. Michael Dugan (6th at StarCityGames.com Invitational Qualifier on 8/27/2016) for example, plays 4 of them in SB. I haven't tested, but for me, it's a card he wants to cast. (Btw, he isn't even playing Evolution.)
Palefang Dawnfall
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
- Ad Nauseam : Eidolon slows him quite a lot (he needs to cast Unlife during his turns, pass, cast Ad Nauseam during our turn, them Storm during his turn). That's a lot of 8 manas. And casting Lotus Bloom would slow him even more, since he won't be able to cast anything else when it resolves. (Giving you plenty of time to kill him or just Reclamation Sage into UnLife)
If you 'only' TKS, you'll remove 1 of his combo card... and he might just draw it again thanks to visions, spoils of the vault, redundancy (4 Unlife, 4 Angel).
- Storm : here again, from my little experience, Storm won't care about you resolving a TKS. He will get rid of 1 card and then what ? Eidolon is a hard call for him, he could only try to Volley.
- Living End : getting rid of 1 card of living end is, on the paper, more useless than in the 2 previous : the deck can cycle like crazy and plays up to 8 of his killing cards. On the other hand, it doesn't play a lot of spot removals (up to 3 MD, 6 post-side). It's still less outs. And casting a removal takes a whole turn most of the time (2-3 manas) during which he won't resolve a cascade.
Chording Eidolon as a resp of a cascad trigger is quite a free win btw.
Otherwise, just Scooze his grave to slow him : we have enough mana to do it.
- Infect : T3 TKS is a bit slow I'd guess. And not as decisive as Melira or Magus. Or Spellskite.
- Breachift : Well, 1 card combo playing with Titan and Scapeshift than can both ruin us. Best would be to speed up. Why not trying to resolve a Magus.
In that particuliar MU, I'd consider the play as a good one. Since Breachift/Scapeshift plays a lot of Wrath-like (engineered explo, Anger...), TKS would be a disrupt AND a beatdown more consistent than our elves.
Against any kind of controle deck, I wouldn't consider playing EE if not to bring a Magus T2. Even then, I usually prefer to have Sylvan Messenger than Chord or EE, because it will make a great CA and is not counterable under CoS.
Palefang Dawnfall
The biggest advantage in playing TKS is that you get to see their hand which allows you to play your subsequent turns accordingly. If you take away their Anger for example and see they have 1 bolt and Negate in hand, that means you won't be wasting 4 mana casting CoCo unless he's tapped. Instead you go for a different play depending on the information you have at hand.
I'll definitely take all your notes into account for my future testing but for now I'm sticking with TKS. Maybe Kaladesh will provide us with a sweet 4CMC threat, preferably an Elf
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
So, I don't consider my deck or sideboard the best.
Btw : My deck at GP Lille :
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen's Elite
2 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Elvish Champion
2 Shaman of the Pack
1 Spellskite
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Collected Company
5 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Razorverge Thicket
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Cavern of Souls
1 Kataki, War's Wage
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Essence Warden
2 Reclamation Sage
1 Magus of the Moon
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Creeping Corrosion
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Sylvan Messenger
I played a GW classic + 2 SotP. SB is quite only silver bullets to get on CoCo or Chord. I play Chord over EE or Lead because of that Silver Bullet SB and because having a board untap during my opponent's turn allow to react the best possible way. Counter his Wrath (BTF, Selfless Spirit), his combo (Revoker, Eidolon), his mana (Revoker, Magus) (...) or, if he doesn't try to disrupt us, I go for a lethal card. Most of the time, Ezuri or if I already have one, Archdruid. Champion is also an option. And when I untap, it is often game.
But Chord is often slow (T3 Chord usually), and I sometimes wanted to use something to bring a silver bullet (especially Magus) faster. EE can be good, especially in SB, when heavy & fast disrupt is needed. I wouldn't play it MD thus, but it's just my personnal feeling about the card.
I'm not used to Lead the Stampede. I often thought that it's not a race card, more a CA card, needed when our elves are under a rain of removals. (Well, in fact, just few removals targeting the lords are enough for me to want this :p). Thus, it's a card I'd gladly play SB. But I haven't so much slots, and I don't know what to take out.
My final word is that I got by Affinity (0-2 / 1-2 / 1-2). Those are the only one-way matchs that I lost in Lille. May I know what are your sideboard techs and priorities in that particular MU ?
Palefang Dawnfall
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR
Very good points. If we're worried about removal then perhaps Sin Collector is a better choice and it doesn't require a 2CMC to evolve.
You're right. But this is why you need to play differently with Evolution. Chord gives you the option to play reactively and protect yourself against sweepers. Without instant speed answer, you just have to be careful and have 1-2 threats on board which eventually forces them to waste their Anger/Damnation and you're ready to rebuild afterwards. Wrath effects are a little harder to counter but with 4 power threats like Chameleon Colossus you don't have to worry as much about Anger.
I'd say the ones you listed are the most important. Melira deals with Infect and Affinity if needed, Kataki for Affinity, Reclamation Sage as a catch all enchantment/artifact removal, Spellskite is great against all removal. Kitchen Finks is another great option. With Dredge on the rise it might also be worth looking into Anafenza, the Foremost or Yixlid Jailer.
WBG Elves WBG
Cheeri0s
EDH:
RG Omnath, Locus of Rage RG || GWUB Atraxa, Praetors' Voice GWUB
R Zo-Zu the Punisher R || WU Brago, King Eternal WU
UB Gisa and Geralf UB || BGW Ghave, Guru of Spores BGW
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
2 Joraga Warcaller
1 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2 Shaman of the Pack
4 Collected Company
4 Lead the Stampede
Lands:19
4 Cavern of Souls
3 Forest
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Pendelhaven
3 Horizon Canopy
1 Westvale Abbey
3 Razorverge Thicket
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Spellskite
1 Selfless Spirit
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Chameleon Colossus
2 Fracturing Gust
3 Eldritch Evolution
I think this leaves me prepared for most of the matchups with Lead and Scooze vs grindy decks (Jund, Abzan) in the maindeck and toolbox for everything else in the side
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender (Nahiri, Mardu-Control, Scapeshift, GR Tron, Moon, Burn, Storm)
1 Kataki, War's Wage (Affinity, Lantern, Tron, Ad Nauseam, Thopter-Sword)
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast (Infect, Affinity)
1 Spellskite (Burn, Infect, Bogles, Death Shadow, Abzan, Jund, Control)
1 Selfless Spirit (Burn, Control, Abzen, Jund, Moon, Scapeshift, G/R Tron
1 Reclamation Sage (Affinity, Lantern, Tron, Ad Nauseam, Thopter-Sword, Bogles, Prison)
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric (Storm, Taking Turns, Ad Nauseam, Living End)
1 Aven Mindcensor (Tron, Nahiri, Scapeshift, Company, Kiki-Evolution, Bring to Light)
1 Thrun, the Last Troll (Nahiri, Control, Abzan, Jund)
1 Chameleon Colossus (black decks, Jund, Abzan, Grixis)
2 Fracturing Gust (Affinity, Lantern, Tron, Ad Nauseam, Thopter-Sword, Bogles, Prison)
3 Eldritch Evolution (EVERYTIME)
Did I miss something? Any suggestions appreciated <3 I might want to add a anafenza and cut the Thrun maybe because I expect more Dredge. Would you cut something else?
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
http://f2fseries.facetofacegames.com/facetofacegames-com-ottawa-open-coverage-august-27th-2016/
Both lists are on 4 Shaman and at least 3 Chords, one is using fetches, the Top4 deck is not using fetches
Favourite Deck: Elves (Modern & Legacy)
Standard: New Perspectives Combo
Modern: GW Hatebears | Death and Taxes | Eldrazi and Taxes | Abzan Liege | Abzan Company
Commander: The Gitrog Monster (Combo) | Noyan Dar, Roil Shaper (Control) | RIP Leovold Sultai (Elvestorm, no unfair locks) | Mono G (Yisan or Titania)
Tiny Leaders: Too many decks to keep track of
Pauper: RIP UR Drake | Mono B | GBx Goodstuff | Jund "Melira"
Because I'm running 4 leads main, 3 EE side and 0 chords, my deck's plan against wipes is not to try and "counter" them with a bullet. I used to try and do that and it feels really clunky having to hold up a chord for 2 on the opponent's turn. We're trying to be aggro and holding back precious combat phases for that "just in case" can be exactly what they want us to do.
My comeback plan for wipes is already maindeck: Lead the Stampede. Sideboarding against Supreme Verdict decks for me involves boarding in 2 copies of Duress and not much else.
In an unknown meta, you're looking at your tier 1 culprits. So that's
Jund - If you're a Chord deck, u need selfless spirit then. Chameleon Colossus evades all spot removal.
Affinity - Kataki and Fracturing Gust
Infect - Melira.
Burn - Essence Warden(s). EE decks also have Dwynen and Kalitas within easy reach.
Dredge - Anafenza, the Foremost, Scavenging Ooze and Kalitas.
Jeskai Nahiri - Aven Mindcensor. Duresses. Chord decks will want Selfless Spirit or Burrenton Forge Tender.
Suicide Zoo - Essence Warden(s). Feeling spicy? Glissa, the Traitor.
Merfolk - We're already favored, but Essence Wardens can make the damage race even more lopsided. Add in Dwynen if you're a sadist.
Eldrazi - Same as merfolk.
BGW Elves BGW|BW Tokens BW|WBR Sword&ShieldWBR|BUG DelverBUG|UWR Kiki UWR | UR Storm UR