Actually I did it the other way round. I included Warping Wail because I already ran the Cavern of Souls/Llanowar Wastes Landbase. Worked fine for me. The only time they dealt more damage than an Overgrown Tomb was when I kept a 1 land hand with only a Llanowar Wastes. Then they might add up to 3 or 4 dmg. But most of the time I could run away with 1 or even 0 damage from them.
Edit:
I agree on the Nykthos, etc. counting as a spell.
Round 1. Vengevine Dredge (Loss 1-2)
Game 1: Got Round loss due to late arrival. :c oops
Game 2: Main board Scavenging Ooze was amazing here. got it to around 26/26 before I was able to push for win.
SIDEBOARD: -2 Shaman of pack. +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord of Calling
Game 3: Poor hand vs fast dredge. Saw Scavenging Ooze one turn too late.
Main board Scavenging Ooze shined. Feel this match-up is good for us but coming in with game loss made this one hard.
Round 2. Living End (Loss 0-2)
Game 1: Scavenging Ooze showed up at the right time. Chose poor targets with Scavenging Ooze eating. Arguably winnable match.
SIDEBOARD: -3 SotP. +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord +1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
Game 2: Popped off HARD. Committed to casting THREE collected companies on turn three, with either Shaman of the pack or eidolon of rhetoric winning me the game on the spot. Sadly did not find either, and did not hit a chord off of visionaries and got wiped by living end resolving.
Noting to just take more time with each turn since I can't imagine going to time with these decks. Careless mistake costing game 1. Unsure about sideboard strategy (I may have brought finks in as well). Actually had it in my mind that there where two SoTP left in the board instead of one.
Round 3. Affinity (Win 2-1)
Game 1: Affinity got turn 3 kill on the play.
SIDEBOARD: -3 SotP -2 Nettle -1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord +1 Rec sage +1 Forge-tender +1 Kataki +2 Fracturing Gust
Game 2: Chorded for kataki, then later chorded for rec sage after he finished paying for his artifacts (tapped out and sniped).
Game 3: Exact repeat of game 2.
Seeing silver bullets that don't get removed made this easy.
Round 4. UWR Nahiri (Win 2-0)
Game 1: Overpowered him quick. Collected company in his end step repeatedly until game locked out.
SIDEBOARD: -3 SotP -1 Nettle +1 Scooze +2 Kitchen Finks +1 Forge-tender (Unsure about this one, maybe didn't bring finks in due to PtE)
Game 2: Kept a onelander without a mana elf but multiple nettles, visionary, collected company. Didn't see second land until turn 6~7. Opponent did nothing except cast an anger on turn 8 when I had ezuri out to regen my team.
Game 2 hand was a mull but I got cocky while on the draw. Drew horribly after but opponent did absolutely nothing so not punished.
P.S. We spoke after the game and he apparently brought in wear//tear for me?? I don't have a target in my 75 except for skite.. skite maybe should logically go in?? Card sat dead in his opening hand entire game.
Round 5. Ad Nauseum (Win 2-0)
Game 1: OP on draw. plays Phyrexian Unlife on turn 3 with lotus bloom coming off suspend next turn. I panic and try to go for the SoTP drain him to 0, followed by swing 10 infect on my turn 4. Casted Collected Company, hit SoTP. With trigger on stack I cast 2nd coco. Opponent concedes before I reveal. Surprised at this because I was certain I was about to come up short and lose next turn.
Game 2: OP suspends 2 lotus blooms. On turn that blooms come off suspend, In response to his first one being cast I chord for Eidolon and pray. OP calls judge to confirm his second lotus bloom is exiled forever. We sit around for a few turns while he fails to find removal for eidolon and gets pecked to death.
SIDEBOARD: -2 SotP -1 Nettle -1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord +1 Rec sage +1 Eidolon of Rhetoric +1 Thoughtseize
Seeing silver bullets that don't get removed made this easy.
Round 6. Mono U-tron (Win 2-1)
Game 1: Op on play. I keep a very fast hand. Op Repeals my t1 llanowar and slows me down. Locks game fast with spot removal into slaver lock.
Game 2: Both Keep slow hand. My hand contains my 1 of thoughtseize. Take his cantrip (repeal). Draw into Scavenging Ooze. Get huge and watch opponent fail to draw an ugin. (He mindslavered me but could only tap my lands and kill my archdruid out of it). Scavenging Ooze shut down the Mindslaver-lock.
Game 3: Got near godhand. Swung lethal on turn 4 through some removal.
SIDEBOARD: -2 SotP -1 Nettle +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Thoughtseize +1 Rec sage
More thought into sideboard could be useful here. Feels much more luck based.
Round 7. BUG midrange (Win 2-1)
Game 1: OP on play goes t1. serum visions. t2 confidant. I godhand into double CoCo on turn 2 and near-miss the turn 2 lethal. Get him to 7 life on my turn 2 with a 12 elf SoTP. Swing lethal on turn 3.
SIDEBOARD: -2 SoTP -1 Sage +1 Scooze +2 Finks
Game 2: Op on play. I mull to 4. He curves and dispels my coco. (I boarded in finks originally to force bad trades, but saw he had Scavenging Ooze for game 2 still. Promptly took them back out.)
SIDEBOARD: -1 Rec Sage +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 TS
Game 3: Op on play goes t1 visions. t2 goyf. I godhand him again and swing lethal on 3.
This MU I think I should be losing. Opponent kept greedy hands and got punished by my good draws. Nothing I could change on my end except optimizing sideboard.
Closed out at 5-2 with the 5 win streak, sneaking into top16. This was my second event on paper, and have little experience with elves.
Deck feels well positioned and is great for events where fatigue is an issue. People are shockingly underplaying this deck still, which is partly why its easy to churn wins out. I'd like to have a more defined gameplan vs BGx/UWx decks. The 75 seemed great and I would only change a few sideboard cards going forward.
Hey all! I'm interested in making a CoCo Elves deck in modern (GB probably, although GW is a possibility). Is there any indication which splash is better for the current meta? Shaman of the Pack has been cleaning up in my games on XMage, but I'm not sure how effective it is against "real" players.
I have also noticed a few times that I draw lands lands lands after dumping my hand. Should I only 'combo' out if I have the finishing pieces? Otherwise I just walk into a board wipe (lost to All Is Dust once before I learned my lesson there). I don't play with Craterhoof, not sure if that's a common thing nowadays. I'd love to see some people's lists. I tried looking through this thread but there aren't many full lists from the past month.
Posted my list in the spoiler tag. The way I play the deck is I think of my win conditions in 4 ways:
1. I'm going to cast an ezuri and overrun and win
2. I'm going to get some early damage in and drain the rest with SotP
3. I'm going to beat face with weenies and not over commit for awhile
4. I'm going to flip Westvale abbey
Something that helped tremendously for me when I was getting started was to ask questions here (even if I got blasted for suggestions that were t very good, I kept at it because I want to learn), look at the current meta breakdown and become familiar with how those decks plan to win (this takes time but 1 deck a day and you'll be prett good in 1-2 months with knowing an opponents options), research the cheapest/brutal way to stop your opponent while furthering your own strategy. This is why creatures with potent abilities find their way into our sideboards and not spells, we need to reliably stop the other deck and coco/chord/lead all accomplish that in some fashion.
As for playing around board clears, you'll become more comfortable the more you play. When I first picked up the deck I ran all my elves headlong into a ton of board states that were screaming board clear and paid for it, however I caught a lot of bluffs too. As I became more familiar I went through a phase where I played too heavily around them, and paid a severe price for it. I feel like I'm hitting a comfortable spot of becoming more familiar with when to hold back and when to gun for it.
Another thing you should do is find out when a particular deck plans to win by, it helps set your role after the first round or two. For example, I typically find I'm a full turn or two ahead of merfolk, and I play very aggressively because I can afford to. However against a deck like tiny zoo, I try and set up a soft lock of spellskite, essence warden, and burrenton forge tender in g2. I trade and block here or there, never jeopardizing the skite to a timely bolt after blocking with it. skullcrack and atarka's command arent great against incremental lifegain.
Read articles on magic theory, like "who's the beat down" or look into things like Frank Karsten's math behind mana bases and how to value cards that can indirectly help fix. It'll help you determine what is in the deck and why, how each piece fits, and knowing how to navigate a match up. This is useful when you begin to tune for your meta.
Just an example, at a side event at a recent GP I was playing against pox, with two damnations in the main and two flaying tendrils in the side for Abzan coco. I didn't even think of tendrils and walked blindly into it in game two, game three I set up a soft lock of an elvish mystic/pendlehaven while slowly playing another 1/1 each turn. He couldn't pull the trigger on flaying tendrils and he couldn't swing with mutavault that he had out. I slowly developed until I was able to just out resource with lead/coco and lords and push back into an aggressive mode. For three turns I had to fall back from being aggressive to being defensive because I knew what I needed to turn the corner, and that mystic was very important to me after some early small pox hits.
This is by no means anything hard and fast, I'm just sharing what I found helpful and what helped me grow as a player. A few examples of where I felt like I practiced what I'm preaching as well. The deck is a blast to play, it's resilient and can really put someone on the back foot quickly.
I have played with Essence Warden over Finks, but Essence Warden was sided in against BW Tokens, Dredge, Scapeshift, Burn, and Zoo.
I think for the future, Kitchen FInks might be better then Essence Warden due to the Zoo matchup. Zoo is just too big and too fast with Bushwhacker for Essence Warden to have any reasonable game plan against it. I think one the whole Finks is where we want to be IF we want lifegain on a creature. You could nix lifegain altogether and replace it with Burrenton Forge-Tender. It has a lot of game vs. Burn, but also useful against Jund, Grixis, Tron, Scapeshift, and other decks like those.
The goal against burn as I play the Lead version is just to out card-advantage them. Trading with creatures is better against burn then any other matchup due to their low creature count. I gladly trade an Elf or two for one of the creatures especially against the Nactle Burn set. Its also why I preferred Essence Warden, which was price of the card, as well as counts as an Elf, mitigates Eidolon, and always offered a choice between Essence and Heritage/Archdruid/Ezuri that they couldn't ignore.
Deck feels well positioned and is great for events where fatigue is an issue. People are shockingly underplaying this deck still, which is partly why its easy to churn wins out. I'd like to have a more defined gameplan vs BGx/UWx decks. The 75 seemed great and I would only change a few sideboard cards going forward.
Nice work on your strong finish.
How do you feel about the white bullets in the board? How often does it come up where you awkwardly draw one and can't cast it? It's nice that the white cards don't overlap on match ups where you'd bring them in so your chances of drawing one are minimized, but that small chance of seeing one in my hand has always made me shy away from running them.
What type of board changes are you looking at? Chameleon Colossus has over performed against BGx and Grixis decks for me. Because I have been hesitant to slot white cards in the board, I've run Minister of Pain against Infect and Affinity which I think is a reasonable replacement for Kataki. Viscera Seer has been decent against Living End, but I really want to give Eidolon of Rhetoric a try because it over laps in the Ad Nauseam match up which has gotten me once or twice. For UWx decks, I run a single Lead the Stampede main over a 4th Chord, and 2 in the board. They really do help rebuild and they overlap in the BGx match ups.
It's a good card. With the "Counter target Sorcery" mode you get most of the boardwipes and the exile mode has also some utility to it. But I moved away from it, since it's no creature and I ended up putting it under my library too often with CoCo or Lead. For now I'm using Dauntless Escort as anti-sweeper tech.
The matchups where the exile-mode on Warping Wail would be relevant, can also be covered by different SB-cards I have. (Ooze for Abzan-CoCo or RecSage for Affinity for example)
How do you feel about the white bullets in the board? How often does it come up where you awkwardly draw one and can't cast it? It's nice that the white cards don't overlap on match ups where you'd bring them in so your chances of drawing one are minimized, but that small chance of seeing one in my hand has always made me shy away from running them.
What type of board changes are you looking at? Chameleon Colossus has over performed against BGx and Grixis decks for me. Because I have been hesitant to slot white cards in the board, I've run Minister of Pain against Infect and Affinity which I think is a reasonable replacement for Kataki. Viscera Seer has been decent against Living End, but I really want to give Eidolon of Rhetoric a try because it over laps in the Ad Nauseam match up which has gotten me once or twice. For UWx decks, I run a single Lead the Stampede main over a 4th Chord, and 2 in the board. They really do help rebuild and they overlap in the BGx match ups.
It's not horrible. I can sandbag a cavern of souls and name spirit/wizard to hardcast the bombs if needed. I'm sure in the right meta horizon canopies would do fine.
Went 3-0-1 tonight at fnm. Ran into 4 blue decks. Had 2x lead the stampede 2x duskwatch recruiter and 1x ooze (1 in the main) that got brought in each time.
Phrexian revoker was another card I brought and I got to name kikijiki with it. Card is great as usual
Duskwatch got activated one time all night. Never saw it at the right time so hard to gauge it.
Because I have been hesitant to slot white cards in the board, I've run Minister of Pain against Infect and Affinity which I think is a reasonable replacement for Kataki
Viscera Seer has been decent against Living End, but I really want to give Eidolon of Rhetoric a try because it over laps in the Ad Nauseam match up which has gotten me once or twice
Minister is a more expansive creature with a less effective effect than Kataki against Affinity. I found the card to be extremely disappointing in my experience. Doesn't hit non-creature artifacts, doesn't hit Ravager, Orni, Nexus, Overseer can resp, Champion, Master... Infect runs too many pumps.
The only competitive MUs where it could shine are Lord-less Faeries and Soul Sisters. Golgari Charm will almost always be better in a SB since it has more applications, costs less, and can easily resp to an opponent's move.
I don't understand the idea behind Viscera Seer since it responds to only one MU. Since Jeskai Nahiri is on the rise, why not play Tajuru Preserver, at least it responds to 2 MUs instead of 1 and is a 2-power elf... ? Eidolon of Rhetoric is a good SB card (well it was great in Pod at least), I suggest you lean towards that one. Great against Burn, Storm, Grixis, Delver, LE and Grishoalbrand, it pulls some weight !
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Also, is Nettle Sentinnel a must? For me it doesnt bring to much. What do you guys think about replacing it with Elves of Deep Shadow as an extra black mana source and run some black spells in sideboard. or maybe just play Boreal Druid as another mana dork.
About Nettle: It depends on your specific build.
If you're going for Lead the Stampede, then it's better since you can "elf-storm" with it. In a Chord of Calling it's more like a 2/2 for G and may be more replaceable with a silver-bullet of some sort.
I disagree. It's not as needed in Lead the stampede version. With chord, nettles basically make each of your chords cost 1 less to play. Obviously it doesn't make it cheaper but being that you tap them for convoke and they untap after you cast Chord. Its also helpful when you want to set up a combo. Knowing you'll about to cast Chord for 1 to get heritage, if you have a nettles sentinel you can just set up the board to account that nettle will untap and leave you with 3 elves untapped. This synergy can be used in many different lines. I think its important to see all of them.
Nettle Sentinel is part of the core, said in other words, Elves is Tier 2 thanks to this card among others that make the core.
As a reminder, here's the core of Elves in 2016 (source MTGTop8, check it out by yourself):
Anything diverging from that core made up results in very small events (and change the stats a bit), but for the most part and for the big tourneys, this is the core.
I suggest not to talk about cutting core pieces unless it's about another very different Elf variant, or because you're convinced you next-leveled everybody with your insight, in which case everyone will be glad to read it.
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Please relax. It has been discussed before and the opinions were split. Not sure how long you have been active on this fourm but read back and you will see there are many times where players have cut core cards like nettles, visionary, and even mana dorks. I do believe if your not playing Collected Company, then you are playing a different variant of elves. Other than that. We welcome all options of different elf choices. Decks without nettle sentinel still preform well. Same with decks that don't run Dwynen's elite, or Visionary.
I disagree. It's not as needed in Lead the stampede version. With chord, nettles basically make each of your chords cost 1 less to play. Obviously it doesn't make it cheaper but being that you tap them for convoke and they untap after you cast Chord. Its also helpful when you want to set up a combo. Knowing you'll about to cast Chord for 1 to get heritage, if you have a nettles sentinel you can just set up the board to account that nettle will untap and leave you with 3 elves untapped. This synergy can be used in many different lines. I think its important to see all of them.
I didn't say it's needed. Just said that it get's bit better with Lead the Stampede. Of course you shouldn't make mistake to overlook the synergy between convoking a Chord of Calling with Nettle Sentinel. Besides that, I run the full 4 Nettles myself and would not recommend cutting them completly. Maybe trimming to 3 if you need specific silver bullets in the main for a certain meta or can be argueable. But cutting completely? No, I don't think so. The feeling of pay 3 mana, draw 5 cards into a board that says 'Damnation or bust' is just too good for me
Please relax. It has been discussed before and the opinions were split. Not sure how long you have been active on this forum but read back and you will see there are many times where players have cut core cards like nettles, visionary, and even mana dorks.
Opinions were split here, results not as much. This is why I invited to check out factual performances. But it takes 5-10 minutes people don't have sometimes.
Opinions diverge because players search for new ideas when they see a card of the core sometimes feels underwhelming in their experience with the deck. That's it. Then they cut the card, play the deck more, and come back to it. When a player does top8 at a Daily on Mtgo without Visionary or Sentinel, it's gonna change the stats a bit, but that's not relevant in the long course. It doesn't mean the player didn't come back to Visionary or Sentinel either, btw.
Now, trimming 1-2 copy of some core cards to tune a list, yes ! But it's different to ask "is a core piece necessary to the deck ?". It's like ignoring 227 pages of discussion, and ~1 year of results. I won't blame a player for naively asking that kind of question though, so if I sounded as such, I apologize.
I've been active on several modern forums over the last few years, the Elf topic is no different than most. I would even say Elves is easier to talk about than Pod, which I've been on quite a lot in the past.
Now Nettle Sentinel x4 has been in every deck that performed in what they present as 2-3-BIG stars events on MTGtop8 in 2016, except 2 decks at 2-star events that still played 3 copies in very fringe builds (Wurmcoil Engine, Lightnng Greaves...). The extremely vast majority of 1-star events saw 4 copies, a minority saw 3, and the negligible rest that played less were experimental tunings / brews, what we'd call a significant stretch.
To me, when provided at a wide scale, tournament results are answers.
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Please relax. It has been discussed before and the opinions were split. Not sure how long you have been active on this forum but read back and you will see there are many times where players have cut core cards like nettles, visionary, and even mana dorks.
Opinions were split here, results not as much. This is why I invited to check out factual performances. But it takes 5-10 minutes people don't have sometimes.
Opinions diverge because players search for new ideas when they see a card of the core sometimes feels underwhelming in their experience with the deck. That's it. Then they cut the card, play the deck more, and come back to it. When a player does top8 at a Daily on Mtgo without Visionary or Sentinel, it's gonna change the stats a bit, but that's not relevant in the long course. It doesn't mean the player didn't come back to Visionary or Sentinel either, btw.
Now, trimming 1-2 copy of some core cards to tune a list, yes ! But it's different to ask "is a core piece necessary to the deck ?". It's like ignoring 227 pages of discussion, and ~1 year of results. I won't blame a player for naively asking that kind of question though, so if I sounded as such, I apologize.
I've been active on several modern forums over the last few years, the Elf topic is no different than most. I would even say Elves is easier to talk about than Pod, which I've been on quite a lot in the past.
Now Nettle Sentinel x4 has been in every deck that performed in what they present as 2-3-BIG stars events on MTGtop8 in 2016, except 2 decks at 2-star events that still played 3 copies in very fringe builds (Wurmcoil Engine, Lightnng Greaves...). The extremely vast majority of 1-star events saw 4 copies, a minority saw 3, and the negligible rest that played less were experimental tunings / brews, what we'd call a significant stretch.
To me, when provided at a wide scale, tournament results are answers.
I appreciate your passion for this topic. But, as you have read from the past in this forum, there are other metagames present than the one here in the USA. Big results occur outside of the USA too. As you might have seen from my posts from September to December, the Japanese metagame pretty much ignores Nettle Sentinels and the majority of the decks do not rely on them. Of course I am not suggesting that this is the only way, not at all, but it is a way that the Japanese (including myself as a Japanese) find effective in their large metagame. I wouldn't be so hasty to include many of the cards as the "core" of any deck until non-USA metagames are considered. Of course, if you qualify your statement saying "the USA metagame seems to see results with the inclusion of Nettle Sentinel," I would be more than willing to admit that since the metagame numbers sque towards Nettle Sentinel builds.
This forum (such as my good buddy Syreal from Australia) is full of players around the globe, so making statements should keep that into consideration.
If you would like tournament results from Japan, I would be more than happy to provide them.
Please relax. It has been discussed before and the opinions were split. Not sure how long you have been active on this forum but read back and you will see there are many times where players have cut core cards like nettles, visionary, and even mana dorks.
Opinions were split here, results not as much. This is why I invited to check out factual performances. But it takes 5-10 minutes people don't have sometimes.
Opinions diverge because players search for new ideas when they see a card of the core sometimes feels underwhelming in their experience with the deck. That's it. Then they cut the card, play the deck more, and come back to it. When a player does top8 at a Daily on Mtgo without Visionary or Sentinel, it's gonna change the stats a bit, but that's not relevant in the long course. It doesn't mean the player didn't come back to Visionary or Sentinel either, btw.
Now, trimming 1-2 copy of some core cards to tune a list, yes ! But it's different to ask "is a core piece necessary to the deck ?". It's like ignoring 227 pages of discussion, and ~1 year of results. I won't blame a player for naively asking that kind of question though, so if I sounded as such, I apologize.
I've been active on several modern forums over the last few years, the Elf topic is no different than most. I would even say Elves is easier to talk about than Pod, which I've been on quite a lot in the past.
Now Nettle Sentinel x4 has been in every deck that performed in what they present as 2-3-BIG stars events on MTGtop8 in 2016, except 2 decks at 2-star events that still played 3 copies in very fringe builds (Wurmcoil Engine, Lightnng Greaves...). The extremely vast majority of 1-star events saw 4 copies, a minority saw 3, and the negligible rest that played less were experimental tunings / brews, what we'd call a significant stretch.
To me, when provided at a wide scale, tournament results are answers.
Like mikeduges just said, there are metagames other than the USA meta. Also, surely you saw the coverage at the eldrazi winter GP Detroit where one of the pros (forgot which one) was running boreal Druid instead of nettles. And he was doing quite well. Better than I remember anyone on our forum running nettles did at a GP. (Please correct me there if I'm wrong as I don't currently have the exact knowledge to verify our GP results) I'm not saying nettles aren't a big card, or even worthy of being called a core card, but you need to be open to other people's opinions and discussion. This forum has been applauded before as a welcoming forum for discussion on elves and that means letting people have and voice opinions.
Look at the Duskwatch recruiter discussion earlier, I thought it was a bad idea and I said so, but made sure to say that I was open to being wrong and then tried it out the next day and have since had 2 in my sideboard.
Also, we on the forum have previously discussed the nettle issue and had people come down on both sides. A lot of it came down to saying that they are very good, but we aren't the legacy build where we can GSZ for them with two mana because they are necessary to the combo with glimpse of nature.
I myself have found that I have to mulligan a lot of hands with nettle as my only one drop that I would have kept if it was boreal Druid or elves of deep shadow. I still run nettles, partially because of how delicious the combo is with heritage Druid, partially out of a lack of local supply of boreal Druids and elves of deep shadow. But I definitely want to try running 3 boreal 1 deep shadow instead of nettle.
I played in a FNM and a SGC IQ this week wielding 2 subtely different decks without nettle sentinel. I did poorly in both. I am however, not blaming Nettle Sentinel as they were probably my mistakes, feeling like the deck failing me, and either not aggressively mulliganing or mulliganing too much.
FNM 1-4 - Lost to Jund, Lost to BTL Scapeshift, Lost to Infect, Lost to Ad Nausuem, Beat Merfolk
Round 1 - Jund - 1-2
I won the first match fairly convincingly. I was able to sustain a board state and rushed it out. I had several elves on the field, but a timely Elvish Archdruid after he attacked with his goyf, allowed me to win on the swing back after casting the druid. Game 2 is where I had an error. I had mulled to five, but after 2 Leads and a CoCo, I had a lot of elves on the field with an active archdruid. I was 8 life and he was at 24 after a Pulse of Murasa getting back a blocked and killed goyf. I also had a Burrenton Forge-Tender out on the field. I attacked with everything that I could pumped Ezuri and was dealing 33 damage. I didn't attack with the Burrenton Forge-Tender which was the mistake. I left him with 1 point of damage after a second pulse of Murasa in hand and with the Goyf blocking for 4 damage. Its all good, I recognize mistake, but it was crushing. Game 3, he junded me out with Night' of Soul's Betrayl into Goyf and then Khalitas that my lone Ezuri could only pump himself and die.
Round 2 - Scapeshift - 0-2
Game 1 - he cast Anger of the Gods. Game 2 - He cast 2 Anger of the Gods, 1 off of BTL, and I had Pay No Heed in hand, but no white mana source until my final turn. He had a valkut, but scapeshifted for 2 valakut, but I had taken too much life from shocking with the Temple Garden, Horizon Canopy, and Elves of Deep Shadow to survive even 1 Valakut triggers off of scapeshift.
Round 3 - Infect - 1-2
I don't really remember the games. I know one where he didn't find a Blighted Agent or enough pumpspells, where 2 Archdruids off of a Company provided enough killing power with normal elves for a beat down. The other games were Inkmoth Nexus and Blighted Agent blowouts.
Round 4 - Tribal Flames Zoo - 0-2
The Elves of Deep Shadow and Horizon Canopy were my dorks and land during game 1 and 2. Otherwise, I didn't really have game. He came down with quick creatures, played tribal flames for me to 5. I just wasn't quick enough and my killing myself due drawing 3 Elves of Deep Shadow and Horizon Canopy were felt.
Round 5 - Merfolk 2-1
I was on the play and combed. This is roughly a goldfish matchup and I had the better draw. Game 2 was Aether Vial go, Land/Elf, go Spreading Seas and Gutshot the Elf, land Elf, Spreading Seas/vial Tidebinder, game over. It was a perfect disruption hand. Game 3 was another typical Elf combo off to win.
I took a measurable hurt for Elves of Deep Shadow, but would still recommend GB Chord builds with heavy black sideboards the card instead of nettle sentinel. I never felt that I was really that exposed or could have done all that much better with them. Still, I was disappointed, but thought it would better if replaced them with Boreal Druids. It really wasn't all that much of a difference.
I thought the Boreal Druid would help out and it was for the mot part, just another Elf. It was good though to see it as a 12th mana dork on occasion, but I never cast it instead of an actual mana dork. All told, it wasn't spectacular, but a few mistakes didn't help me out either.
Round 1 - Titanshift
Game 1 - He did this thing. I lost as he saw his 2 main deck Anger of the Gods. Game 2 - I had Westvale Abbey in hand and a bunch of low casting cost Elves. I played it out fast Land/Dork, horizon canopy heritage druid and dork into archdruid, turn 3 heritage druid off the draw and westvale abbey. He attmeped to Anger of the Gods on turn 3 which wouldn't have been pretty at all, but I was able to activate him and flip him and game was over at that point. Game 3, he miss managed his lands for scapeshift getting too many green sources where he couldn't then bolt an archdruid, force me to sac a bft I had on the board and angered. I wouldn't have saved the archdruid as I had ezuri in hand and would have attempted to win another turn down the line, but he didn't and couldn't so I was able to play with Archdruding for seven mana casting Ezuri, tapping a land and winning.
Round 2 - Goblin Dark Dwellers Jund 0-2
Game 1 - Got mana screwed and wasn't able to put up a good defense in time. Angers didn't help, but was just screwed. Game 2 was an Anger and a Damnation seeled the deal.
Round 3 - Affinity 0-2
Game 1 - Gambled on a 1 land hand on the draw and never saw another land until too late. Game 2 - Opening hand had 3 Lands, a Rec Sage, 1 Pay No head, and 2 Dorks. I mulliganed into a 1 land hand and a bunch of 3 or more casting cost stuff. Mulliganed to 5 with another 1 land hand with a couple things. Kept. Never saw a second land and was tilted so foolishly attacked with a 1/1 which kept me off heritage mana a turn later when I revealed another mana dork which over 5 turns was the only other 1 drop I found.
Round 4 - Infect 0-2
Games 1 and 2 found the blighted Agent. Game 2 though I had a pay no heed which helped me survive, but with exalted he had nough to get through. I was trying to hold up a path and enough Elves and mana to activate Westvale Abbey incase of inkmoth, but it didn't matter and maybe should have attacked to get some life off him.
Round 5 - Naya Burn - 2-0
Gmae 1 he was afraid of Westvale Abbey so kept targettig creatures. The only creature I really saw was Eidolon and it just didn't do enough. It was a grindy match for sure, but a coco into a shaman sealed the deal at 2 life. Game 2 was Kitchen Finks turn 2 and then just grindiness into overrun
I was highly frustrated at the affinity matchup, but everything else was fine. Infect is a bad matchup and he was shocked and surprised at the pay no heed. However, I didn't have enough to finish as I should have cast archdruid or activated westvaley abbey ro something to put pressure on him. I wasn't that impressed with boreal druid.
I am going to try the Duskwatch Recruiter version at an FNM before Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravaganza weekend. I am not sure what version to take to that tournament. I am thinking due to the nature of the decks to possible take a GW Lead/Messenger version with a heavy white sideboard as seen above. I know that I am going to be playing Rest in Peace as that is my Anti-Jund card for Kalitas now. It will do work in a much larger tournament. Westvale Abbey is a keeper.
I may replace the Path to Exile with Beast Within, but I probably won't. If Stony Silence doesn't perform against Tron, I would consider replacing them with Beast Within which might provide different protection.
@Mike and Spike:
Fair enough.
Mike, I'd be glad to know where to find asian results, or at least where to seek. I'm unsure a website hosts regular reports like we see on a few american websites.
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Pioneer - A bunch of stuff Modern - Humans Legacy - Grixis Phoenix / Death & Taxes
The reason its so effective against Living End is due to the fact that they have no outs to it being on board. Tajuru Preserver eats up Shriekmaw and rarely sees relevance in other matchups anyway (if theres a 15/15 chances are you're dead anyway). Also, you shouldn't feel bad for bringing a literal silver bullet as long as it pushes your chances in the matchup from dead (ie, sub 30%) to alive (ie, around 45% against Living End)
Trying to convince a friend who's a Legacy Elves player to try Modern.
Can anyone please give me a quick overview of this deck's match ups against the tier one decks of Modern? According to Sheridan's latest data, tier one is currently Jund, Burn, Infect, RG Tron, Affinity, Jeskai Control, Scapeshift and Abzan Company (whew, very diverse!)
Just a quick "even", "slightly (un)favoured", "(un)favoured" or "heavily (un)favoured" for each deck would be really helpful. Couldn't find this information in the primer.
Hey! No problem at all. This is the site where I look. This store is one of the biggest in Japan and hosts a team of platinum level pros that often make top eight in pro tours. This store started a monthly magic games series recently that attracts about 60-80 people. Finally, here is a site where a lot of the smaller tournaments and big ones are represented in one place (you have to click on the phrase next to the MTG flag in each column. Let me know if you need more help navigating!
Thank you so much for your diligence in pursuing betterment for this deck! We all appreciate it immensely.
Trying to convince a friend who's a Legacy Elves player to try Modern.
Can anyone please give me a quick overview of this deck's match ups against the tier one decks of Modern? According to Sheridan's latest data, tier one is currently Jund, Burn, Infect, RG Tron, Affinity, Jeskai Control, Scapeshift and Abzan Company (whew, very diverse!)
Just a quick "even", "slightly (un)favoured", "(un)favoured" or "heavily (un)favoured" for each deck would be really helpful. Couldn't find this information in the primer.
Thanks!
Going left through right:
Jund - favoured game 1, unfavoured 2/3
Burn - favoured
Infect - I feel favoured, but other people in this forum feel unfavoured so I'll take the diplomatic route and say even
RG Tron - heavily unfavoured
Affinity - Technically even, but lets be honest you can't beat some Affinity hands.
Nahiri Jeskai - I actually feel fine against this deck. They tap out a lot and leave you plenty of openings, further the steer away from Supreme makes it better for us. I'd say its still unfavoured, however.
Scapeshift - Unfavoured, but we can race assuming no wipes.
Abzan Company - Heavily favoured. You're faster by 2-3 turns.
I think it depends on the version of Elves that you are running as to whether you are favored or unfavored in matches against the T1 decks. You can absolutely tune your decks to do very well against the Midrange/Control decks and the fast agro decks. The ramp decks like Scapeshift and Tron are just naturally better against you due to the amount of boardwipes they run.
Midrange/Control decks you can be favored against them by running as much card advantage as you can with Lead the Stampede and/or Sylvan Messenger. While this doesn't gurantee victory, it can and does provide ways to outgrind them. However, in doing so you lose speed and specific answers.
Affinity, Infect, and Burn can be made more manageable with Chord buids as you can now have a toolkit to answer them in the form of hatebears and more reliability in Chording in your winning piece. However, the deck is more vulnerable to targeted removal and therefore it maybe more difficult to assemble a chord and win turn.
I have found Affinity is manageable really no matter what build you have. You are fast and have the sideboard being Green or Green/White to handle Affinity. Infect I have found to be as bad if not worse then Tron. Our previous answer in terms of spellskite is both good and bad. It isn't as reliable as once was as Infect is generally carrying Spellskite-specific hate and Countermagic against Chording/Company so it is unfavorable I think no matter what we do. We can win it, but they are reliably faster and have disruption. Also our combo in the first 2-3 turns require us to tap our dudes and our mana which is the turn they go off.
I tried removing Nettle Sentinel, but I didn't find that much meaningful difference. It was good to replace it with mana dork 9-12 just to be more consistant, but I think for lead builds, the lack of attackers off of nettle sentinel untaps can be relevant to put pressure. I would keep them in Lead builds for the Elf-storming effect that is similar but weaker then in legacy, but also due to the more agro nature of the deck. It is less part of the Chord combo.
However for the Specific Question - This is how I feel against the decks. I have run Lead and Lead/Messenger. I haven't really ran Chord is a long long while, so please understand that my bias.
Jund - I feel like I am favored game one. If I am playing with Messengers, I feel favored in general.
Burn - I have only lost against Burn once. Burn is favored for us. The grindier the match the better for us.
Infect - I feel heavily unfavored in this matchup regardless of the game.
RG Tron - I feel mixed. I have beaten tron multiple times, but it requires really fast hands and they don't have a boardwipe. I feel though each time I was lucky. Unfavored as much as Infect is.
Affinity - Since we are both fast agro/combo decks. I feel this is a matchup that is determined by your hand. Games 2-3, I think we are favored.
Nahiri Jeskai - I haven't played it, but I imagine it would be difficult, but not impossible with the more card advantage version you go.
Scapeshift - I think this is unfavored. I have faced scapeshift, a couple times, but I haven't beat any version other then Titanshift which is more favorable to us then other versions.
Abzan Company - I think we are just heavily favored in that we are faster then them, no matter what version we play.
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Edit:
I agree on the Nykthos, etc. counting as a spell.
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Heritage Druid
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Shaman of the Pack
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Elvish Archdruid
4 Collected Company
2 Chord of Calling
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Pendelhaven
1 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Forest
3 Windswept Heath
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Chord of Calling
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Spellskite
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
2 Fracturing Gust
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Thoughtseize
2 Essence Warden
Game 1: Got Round loss due to late arrival. :c oops
Game 2: Main board Scavenging Ooze was amazing here. got it to around 26/26 before I was able to push for win.
SIDEBOARD: -2 Shaman of pack. +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord of Calling
Game 3: Poor hand vs fast dredge. Saw Scavenging Ooze one turn too late.
Main board Scavenging Ooze shined. Feel this match-up is good for us but coming in with game loss made this one hard.
Round 2. Living End (Loss 0-2)
Game 1: Scavenging Ooze showed up at the right time. Chose poor targets with Scavenging Ooze eating. Arguably winnable match.
SIDEBOARD: -3 SotP. +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord +1 Eidolon of Rhetoric
Game 2: Popped off HARD. Committed to casting THREE collected companies on turn three, with either Shaman of the pack or eidolon of rhetoric winning me the game on the spot. Sadly did not find either, and did not hit a chord off of visionaries and got wiped by living end resolving.
Noting to just take more time with each turn since I can't imagine going to time with these decks. Careless mistake costing game 1. Unsure about sideboard strategy (I may have brought finks in as well). Actually had it in my mind that there where two SoTP left in the board instead of one.
Round 3. Affinity (Win 2-1)
Game 1: Affinity got turn 3 kill on the play.
SIDEBOARD: -3 SotP -2 Nettle -1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord +1 Rec sage +1 Forge-tender +1 Kataki +2 Fracturing Gust
Game 2: Chorded for kataki, then later chorded for rec sage after he finished paying for his artifacts (tapped out and sniped).
Game 3: Exact repeat of game 2.
Seeing silver bullets that don't get removed made this easy.
Round 4. UWR Nahiri (Win 2-0)
Game 1: Overpowered him quick. Collected company in his end step repeatedly until game locked out.
SIDEBOARD: -3 SotP -1 Nettle +1 Scooze +2 Kitchen Finks +1 Forge-tender (Unsure about this one, maybe didn't bring finks in due to PtE)
Game 2: Kept a onelander without a mana elf but multiple nettles, visionary, collected company. Didn't see second land until turn 6~7. Opponent did nothing except cast an anger on turn 8 when I had ezuri out to regen my team.
Game 2 hand was a mull but I got cocky while on the draw. Drew horribly after but opponent did absolutely nothing so not punished.
P.S. We spoke after the game and he apparently brought in wear//tear for me?? I don't have a target in my 75 except for skite.. skite maybe should logically go in?? Card sat dead in his opening hand entire game.
Round 5. Ad Nauseum (Win 2-0)
Game 1: OP on draw. plays Phyrexian Unlife on turn 3 with lotus bloom coming off suspend next turn. I panic and try to go for the SoTP drain him to 0, followed by swing 10 infect on my turn 4. Casted Collected Company, hit SoTP. With trigger on stack I cast 2nd coco. Opponent concedes before I reveal. Surprised at this because I was certain I was about to come up short and lose next turn.
Game 2: OP suspends 2 lotus blooms. On turn that blooms come off suspend, In response to his first one being cast I chord for Eidolon and pray. OP calls judge to confirm his second lotus bloom is exiled forever. We sit around for a few turns while he fails to find removal for eidolon and gets pecked to death.
SIDEBOARD: -2 SotP -1 Nettle -1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Chord +1 Rec sage +1 Eidolon of Rhetoric +1 Thoughtseize
Seeing silver bullets that don't get removed made this easy.
Round 6. Mono U-tron (Win 2-1)
Game 1: Op on play. I keep a very fast hand. Op Repeals my t1 llanowar and slows me down. Locks game fast with spot removal into slaver lock.
Game 2: Both Keep slow hand. My hand contains my 1 of thoughtseize. Take his cantrip (repeal). Draw into Scavenging Ooze. Get huge and watch opponent fail to draw an ugin. (He mindslavered me but could only tap my lands and kill my archdruid out of it). Scavenging Ooze shut down the Mindslaver-lock.
Game 3: Got near godhand. Swung lethal on turn 4 through some removal.
SIDEBOARD: -2 SotP -1 Nettle +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 Thoughtseize +1 Rec sage
More thought into sideboard could be useful here. Feels much more luck based.
Round 7. BUG midrange (Win 2-1)
Game 1: OP on play goes t1. serum visions. t2 confidant. I godhand into double CoCo on turn 2 and near-miss the turn 2 lethal. Get him to 7 life on my turn 2 with a 12 elf SoTP. Swing lethal on turn 3.
SIDEBOARD: -2 SoTP -1 Sage +1 Scooze +2 Finks
Game 2: Op on play. I mull to 4. He curves and dispels my coco. (I boarded in finks originally to force bad trades, but saw he had Scavenging Ooze for game 2 still. Promptly took them back out.)
SIDEBOARD: -1 Rec Sage +1 Scavenging Ooze +1 TS
Game 3: Op on play goes t1 visions. t2 goyf. I godhand him again and swing lethal on 3.
This MU I think I should be losing. Opponent kept greedy hands and got punished by my good draws. Nothing I could change on my end except optimizing sideboard.
Closed out at 5-2 with the 5 win streak, sneaking into top16. This was my second event on paper, and have little experience with elves.
Deck feels well positioned and is great for events where fatigue is an issue. People are shockingly underplaying this deck still, which is partly why its easy to churn wins out. I'd like to have a more defined gameplan vs BGx/UWx decks. The 75 seemed great and I would only change a few sideboard cards going forward.
2 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacomb
1 overgrown tomb
1 temple garden
4 gilt-leaf palace
4 cavern of souls
1 Westvale Abbey
4 llanowar elf
4 elvish mystic
4 heritage Druid
4 nettle sentinel
1 joraga warcaller
4 dwynen's elite
4 elvish visonary
4 elvish archdruid
4 shaman of the pack
2 ezuri, renegade leader
3 lead the stampede
1 spellskite
2 essence warden
1 scavenging ooze
4 chord of calling
4 thoughtsieze
1 Melira, sylvok outcast
1 phyrexian revoker
1 spellskite
Posted my list in the spoiler tag. The way I play the deck is I think of my win conditions in 4 ways:
1. I'm going to cast an ezuri and overrun and win
2. I'm going to get some early damage in and drain the rest with SotP
3. I'm going to beat face with weenies and not over commit for awhile
4. I'm going to flip Westvale abbey
Something that helped tremendously for me when I was getting started was to ask questions here (even if I got blasted for suggestions that were t very good, I kept at it because I want to learn), look at the current meta breakdown and become familiar with how those decks plan to win (this takes time but 1 deck a day and you'll be prett good in 1-2 months with knowing an opponents options), research the cheapest/brutal way to stop your opponent while furthering your own strategy. This is why creatures with potent abilities find their way into our sideboards and not spells, we need to reliably stop the other deck and coco/chord/lead all accomplish that in some fashion.
As for playing around board clears, you'll become more comfortable the more you play. When I first picked up the deck I ran all my elves headlong into a ton of board states that were screaming board clear and paid for it, however I caught a lot of bluffs too. As I became more familiar I went through a phase where I played too heavily around them, and paid a severe price for it. I feel like I'm hitting a comfortable spot of becoming more familiar with when to hold back and when to gun for it.
Another thing you should do is find out when a particular deck plans to win by, it helps set your role after the first round or two. For example, I typically find I'm a full turn or two ahead of merfolk, and I play very aggressively because I can afford to. However against a deck like tiny zoo, I try and set up a soft lock of spellskite, essence warden, and burrenton forge tender in g2. I trade and block here or there, never jeopardizing the skite to a timely bolt after blocking with it. skullcrack and atarka's command arent great against incremental lifegain.
Read articles on magic theory, like "who's the beat down" or look into things like Frank Karsten's math behind mana bases and how to value cards that can indirectly help fix. It'll help you determine what is in the deck and why, how each piece fits, and knowing how to navigate a match up. This is useful when you begin to tune for your meta.
Just an example, at a side event at a recent GP I was playing against pox, with two damnations in the main and two flaying tendrils in the side for Abzan coco. I didn't even think of tendrils and walked blindly into it in game two, game three I set up a soft lock of an elvish mystic/pendlehaven while slowly playing another 1/1 each turn. He couldn't pull the trigger on flaying tendrils and he couldn't swing with mutavault that he had out. I slowly developed until I was able to just out resource with lead/coco and lords and push back into an aggressive mode. For three turns I had to fall back from being aggressive to being defensive because I knew what I needed to turn the corner, and that mystic was very important to me after some early small pox hits.
This is by no means anything hard and fast, I'm just sharing what I found helpful and what helped me grow as a player. A few examples of where I felt like I practiced what I'm preaching as well. The deck is a blast to play, it's resilient and can really put someone on the back foot quickly.
I think for the future, Kitchen FInks might be better then Essence Warden due to the Zoo matchup. Zoo is just too big and too fast with Bushwhacker for Essence Warden to have any reasonable game plan against it. I think one the whole Finks is where we want to be IF we want lifegain on a creature. You could nix lifegain altogether and replace it with Burrenton Forge-Tender. It has a lot of game vs. Burn, but also useful against Jund, Grixis, Tron, Scapeshift, and other decks like those.
The goal against burn as I play the Lead version is just to out card-advantage them. Trading with creatures is better against burn then any other matchup due to their low creature count. I gladly trade an Elf or two for one of the creatures especially against the Nactle Burn set. Its also why I preferred Essence Warden, which was price of the card, as well as counts as an Elf, mitigates Eidolon, and always offered a choice between Essence and Heritage/Archdruid/Ezuri that they couldn't ignore.
Nice work on your strong finish.
How do you feel about the white bullets in the board? How often does it come up where you awkwardly draw one and can't cast it? It's nice that the white cards don't overlap on match ups where you'd bring them in so your chances of drawing one are minimized, but that small chance of seeing one in my hand has always made me shy away from running them.
What type of board changes are you looking at? Chameleon Colossus has over performed against BGx and Grixis decks for me. Because I have been hesitant to slot white cards in the board, I've run Minister of Pain against Infect and Affinity which I think is a reasonable replacement for Kataki. Viscera Seer has been decent against Living End, but I really want to give Eidolon of Rhetoric a try because it over laps in the Ad Nauseam match up which has gotten me once or twice. For UWx decks, I run a single Lead the Stampede main over a 4th Chord, and 2 in the board. They really do help rebuild and they overlap in the BGx match ups.
BLiliana, Heretical HealerB| |GTitania, Protector of ArgothG
GWBDoom Plane EnchantressBWG
The matchups where the exile-mode on Warping Wail would be relevant, can also be covered by different SB-cards I have. (Ooze for Abzan-CoCo or RecSage for Affinity for example)
It's not horrible. I can sandbag a cavern of souls and name spirit/wizard to hardcast the bombs if needed. I'm sure in the right meta horizon canopies would do fine.
Went 3-0-1 tonight at fnm. Ran into 4 blue decks. Had 2x lead the stampede 2x duskwatch recruiter and 1x ooze (1 in the main) that got brought in each time.
Phrexian revoker was another card I brought and I got to name kikijiki with it. Card is great as usual
Duskwatch got activated one time all night. Never saw it at the right time so hard to gauge it.
Minister is a more expansive creature with a less effective effect than Kataki against Affinity. I found the card to be extremely disappointing in my experience. Doesn't hit non-creature artifacts, doesn't hit Ravager, Orni, Nexus, Overseer can resp, Champion, Master... Infect runs too many pumps.
The only competitive MUs where it could shine are Lord-less Faeries and Soul Sisters.
Golgari Charm will almost always be better in a SB since it has more applications, costs less, and can easily resp to an opponent's move.
I don't understand the idea behind Viscera Seer since it responds to only one MU. Since Jeskai Nahiri is on the rise, why not play Tajuru Preserver, at least it responds to 2 MUs instead of 1 and is a 2-power elf... ?
Eidolon of Rhetoric is a good SB card (well it was great in Pod at least), I suggest you lean towards that one. Great against Burn, Storm, Grixis, Delver, LE and Grishoalbrand, it pulls some weight !
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1266551
4 cocos
4 Chords
3 Leads
Also, is Nettle Sentinnel a must? For me it doesnt bring to much. What do you guys think about replacing it with Elves of Deep Shadow as an extra black mana source and run some black spells in sideboard. or maybe just play Boreal Druid as another mana dork.
If you're going for Lead the Stampede, then it's better since you can "elf-storm" with it. In a Chord of Calling it's more like a 2/2 for G and may be more replaceable with a silver-bullet of some sort.
As a reminder, here's the core of Elves in 2016 (source MTGTop8, check it out by yourself):
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Nettle Sentinel
4 Heritage Druid
4 Dwynen's Elite
3 Elvish Visionary
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Collected Company
Anything diverging from that core made up results in very small events (and change the stats a bit), but for the most part and for the big tourneys, this is the core.
I suggest not to talk about cutting core pieces unless it's about another very different Elf variant, or because you're convinced you next-leveled everybody with your insight, in which case everyone will be glad to read it.
I didn't say it's needed. Just said that it get's bit better with Lead the Stampede. Of course you shouldn't make mistake to overlook the synergy between convoking a Chord of Calling with Nettle Sentinel. Besides that, I run the full 4 Nettles myself and would not recommend cutting them completly. Maybe trimming to 3 if you need specific silver bullets in the main for a certain meta or can be argueable. But cutting completely? No, I don't think so. The feeling of pay 3 mana, draw 5 cards into a board that says 'Damnation or bust' is just too good for me
Opinions were split here, results not as much. This is why I invited to check out factual performances. But it takes 5-10 minutes people don't have sometimes.
Opinions diverge because players search for new ideas when they see a card of the core sometimes feels underwhelming in their experience with the deck. That's it. Then they cut the card, play the deck more, and come back to it. When a player does top8 at a Daily on Mtgo without Visionary or Sentinel, it's gonna change the stats a bit, but that's not relevant in the long course. It doesn't mean the player didn't come back to Visionary or Sentinel either, btw.
Now, trimming 1-2 copy of some core cards to tune a list, yes ! But it's different to ask "is a core piece necessary to the deck ?". It's like ignoring 227 pages of discussion, and ~1 year of results. I won't blame a player for naively asking that kind of question though, so if I sounded as such, I apologize.
I've been active on several modern forums over the last few years, the Elf topic is no different than most. I would even say Elves is easier to talk about than Pod, which I've been on quite a lot in the past.
Now Nettle Sentinel x4 has been in every deck that performed in what they present as 2-3-BIG stars events on MTGtop8 in 2016, except 2 decks at 2-star events that still played 3 copies in very fringe builds (Wurmcoil Engine, Lightnng Greaves...). The extremely vast majority of 1-star events saw 4 copies, a minority saw 3, and the negligible rest that played less were experimental tunings / brews, what we'd call a significant stretch.
To me, when provided at a wide scale, tournament results are answers.
I appreciate your passion for this topic. But, as you have read from the past in this forum, there are other metagames present than the one here in the USA. Big results occur outside of the USA too. As you might have seen from my posts from September to December, the Japanese metagame pretty much ignores Nettle Sentinels and the majority of the decks do not rely on them. Of course I am not suggesting that this is the only way, not at all, but it is a way that the Japanese (including myself as a Japanese) find effective in their large metagame. I wouldn't be so hasty to include many of the cards as the "core" of any deck until non-USA metagames are considered. Of course, if you qualify your statement saying "the USA metagame seems to see results with the inclusion of Nettle Sentinel," I would be more than willing to admit that since the metagame numbers sque towards Nettle Sentinel builds.
This forum (such as my good buddy Syreal from Australia) is full of players around the globe, so making statements should keep that into consideration.
If you would like tournament results from Japan, I would be more than happy to provide them.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Like mikeduges just said, there are metagames other than the USA meta. Also, surely you saw the coverage at the eldrazi winter GP Detroit where one of the pros (forgot which one) was running boreal Druid instead of nettles. And he was doing quite well. Better than I remember anyone on our forum running nettles did at a GP. (Please correct me there if I'm wrong as I don't currently have the exact knowledge to verify our GP results) I'm not saying nettles aren't a big card, or even worthy of being called a core card, but you need to be open to other people's opinions and discussion. This forum has been applauded before as a welcoming forum for discussion on elves and that means letting people have and voice opinions.
Look at the Duskwatch recruiter discussion earlier, I thought it was a bad idea and I said so, but made sure to say that I was open to being wrong and then tried it out the next day and have since had 2 in my sideboard.
Also, we on the forum have previously discussed the nettle issue and had people come down on both sides. A lot of it came down to saying that they are very good, but we aren't the legacy build where we can GSZ for them with two mana because they are necessary to the combo with glimpse of nature.
I myself have found that I have to mulligan a lot of hands with nettle as my only one drop that I would have kept if it was boreal Druid or elves of deep shadow. I still run nettles, partially because of how delicious the combo is with heritage Druid, partially out of a lack of local supply of boreal Druids and elves of deep shadow. But I definitely want to try running 3 boreal 1 deep shadow instead of nettle.
Marath, Will of the Wild Tokens!! / Karrthus, Tyrant of Jund Dragons! / Muzzio, Visionary Architect / Brago, King Eternal / Daretti, Scrap Savant / Narset, Enlightened Master / Alesha, Who Smiles at Death / Bruna, Light of Alabaster / Marchesa, the Black Rose / Iroas, God of Victory / Freyalise, Llanowar's Fury / Omnath, Locus of rage / Titania, Protector of Argoth / Kozilek, the Great Distortion
Modern
Elves / Titanshift / Merfolk
FNM 1-4 - Lost to Jund, Lost to BTL Scapeshift, Lost to Infect, Lost to Ad Nausuem, Beat Merfolk
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Temple Garden
1 Windswept Heath
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Pendelhaven
Creatures
4 Elves of Deep Shadow
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Shaman of the Pack
3 Lead the Stampede
1 Melira, Sylvock Outcast
2 Pay No heed
2 Path to Exile
1 Stony Silence
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Fracturing Gust
3 Essence Warden
Round 1 - Jund - 1-2
I won the first match fairly convincingly. I was able to sustain a board state and rushed it out. I had several elves on the field, but a timely Elvish Archdruid after he attacked with his goyf, allowed me to win on the swing back after casting the druid. Game 2 is where I had an error. I had mulled to five, but after 2 Leads and a CoCo, I had a lot of elves on the field with an active archdruid. I was 8 life and he was at 24 after a Pulse of Murasa getting back a blocked and killed goyf. I also had a Burrenton Forge-Tender out on the field. I attacked with everything that I could pumped Ezuri and was dealing 33 damage. I didn't attack with the Burrenton Forge-Tender which was the mistake. I left him with 1 point of damage after a second pulse of Murasa in hand and with the Goyf blocking for 4 damage. Its all good, I recognize mistake, but it was crushing. Game 3, he junded me out with Night' of Soul's Betrayl into Goyf and then Khalitas that my lone Ezuri could only pump himself and die.
Round 2 - Scapeshift - 0-2
Game 1 - he cast Anger of the Gods. Game 2 - He cast 2 Anger of the Gods, 1 off of BTL, and I had Pay No Heed in hand, but no white mana source until my final turn. He had a valkut, but scapeshifted for 2 valakut, but I had taken too much life from shocking with the Temple Garden, Horizon Canopy, and Elves of Deep Shadow to survive even 1 Valakut triggers off of scapeshift.
Round 3 - Infect - 1-2
I don't really remember the games. I know one where he didn't find a Blighted Agent or enough pumpspells, where 2 Archdruids off of a Company provided enough killing power with normal elves for a beat down. The other games were Inkmoth Nexus and Blighted Agent blowouts.
Round 4 - Tribal Flames Zoo - 0-2
The Elves of Deep Shadow and Horizon Canopy were my dorks and land during game 1 and 2. Otherwise, I didn't really have game. He came down with quick creatures, played tribal flames for me to 5. I just wasn't quick enough and my killing myself due drawing 3 Elves of Deep Shadow and Horizon Canopy were felt.
Round 5 - Merfolk 2-1
I was on the play and combed. This is roughly a goldfish matchup and I had the better draw. Game 2 was Aether Vial go, Land/Elf, go Spreading Seas and Gutshot the Elf, land Elf, Spreading Seas/vial Tidebinder, game over. It was a perfect disruption hand. Game 3 was another typical Elf combo off to win.
I took a measurable hurt for Elves of Deep Shadow, but would still recommend GB Chord builds with heavy black sideboards the card instead of nettle sentinel. I never felt that I was really that exposed or could have done all that much better with them. Still, I was disappointed, but thought it would better if replaced them with Boreal Druids. It really wasn't all that much of a difference.
Starcity IQ
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Forest
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
1 Pendelhaven
1 Westvale Abbey
Creatures
4 Boreal Druid
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
2 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Shaman of the Pack
3 Lead the Stampede
1 Melira, Sylvock Outcast
2 Pay No heed
2 Path to Exile
2 Stony Silence
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Dauntless Escort
1 Fracturing Gust
2 Kitchen Finks
I thought the Boreal Druid would help out and it was for the mot part, just another Elf. It was good though to see it as a 12th mana dork on occasion, but I never cast it instead of an actual mana dork. All told, it wasn't spectacular, but a few mistakes didn't help me out either.
Round 1 - Titanshift
Game 1 - He did this thing. I lost as he saw his 2 main deck Anger of the Gods. Game 2 - I had Westvale Abbey in hand and a bunch of low casting cost Elves. I played it out fast Land/Dork, horizon canopy heritage druid and dork into archdruid, turn 3 heritage druid off the draw and westvale abbey. He attmeped to Anger of the Gods on turn 3 which wouldn't have been pretty at all, but I was able to activate him and flip him and game was over at that point. Game 3, he miss managed his lands for scapeshift getting too many green sources where he couldn't then bolt an archdruid, force me to sac a bft I had on the board and angered. I wouldn't have saved the archdruid as I had ezuri in hand and would have attempted to win another turn down the line, but he didn't and couldn't so I was able to play with Archdruding for seven mana casting Ezuri, tapping a land and winning.
Round 2 - Goblin Dark Dwellers Jund 0-2
Game 1 - Got mana screwed and wasn't able to put up a good defense in time. Angers didn't help, but was just screwed. Game 2 was an Anger and a Damnation seeled the deal.
Round 3 - Affinity 0-2
Game 1 - Gambled on a 1 land hand on the draw and never saw another land until too late. Game 2 - Opening hand had 3 Lands, a Rec Sage, 1 Pay No head, and 2 Dorks. I mulliganed into a 1 land hand and a bunch of 3 or more casting cost stuff. Mulliganed to 5 with another 1 land hand with a couple things. Kept. Never saw a second land and was tilted so foolishly attacked with a 1/1 which kept me off heritage mana a turn later when I revealed another mana dork which over 5 turns was the only other 1 drop I found.
Round 4 - Infect 0-2
Games 1 and 2 found the blighted Agent. Game 2 though I had a pay no heed which helped me survive, but with exalted he had nough to get through. I was trying to hold up a path and enough Elves and mana to activate Westvale Abbey incase of inkmoth, but it didn't matter and maybe should have attacked to get some life off him.
Round 5 - Naya Burn - 2-0
Gmae 1 he was afraid of Westvale Abbey so kept targettig creatures. The only creature I really saw was Eidolon and it just didn't do enough. It was a grindy match for sure, but a coco into a shaman sealed the deal at 2 life. Game 2 was Kitchen Finks turn 2 and then just grindiness into overrun
I was highly frustrated at the affinity matchup, but everything else was fine. Infect is a bad matchup and he was shocked and surprised at the pay no heed. However, I didn't have enough to finish as I should have cast archdruid or activated westvaley abbey ro something to put pressure on him. I wasn't that impressed with boreal druid.
I am going to try the Duskwatch Recruiter version at an FNM before Tales of Adventure Eternal Extravaganza weekend. I am not sure what version to take to that tournament. I am thinking due to the nature of the decks to possible take a GW Lead/Messenger version with a heavy white sideboard as seen above. I know that I am going to be playing Rest in Peace as that is my Anti-Jund card for Kalitas now. It will do work in a much larger tournament. Westvale Abbey is a keeper.
Next Friday
4 Razorverge Thicket
2 Cavern of Souls
1 Temple Garden
3 Forest
2 Windswept Heath
1 Pendelhaven
1 Westvale Abbey
4 Nettle Sentinel
3 Boreal Druid
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Elvish Mystic
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Archdruid
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Duskwatch Recruiter
1 Melira, Sylvock Outcast
2 Path to Exile
2 Pay No Heed
2 Rest in Peace
2 Burrenton Forge-Tender
2 Stony Silence
1 Fracturing Gust
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Kitchen Finks
I may replace the Path to Exile with Beast Within, but I probably won't. If Stony Silence doesn't perform against Tron, I would consider replacing them with Beast Within which might provide different protection.
Fair enough.
Mike, I'd be glad to know where to find asian results, or at least where to seek. I'm unsure a website hosts regular reports like we see on a few american websites.
The reason its so effective against Living End is due to the fact that they have no outs to it being on board. Tajuru Preserver eats up Shriekmaw and rarely sees relevance in other matchups anyway (if theres a 15/15 chances are you're dead anyway). Also, you shouldn't feel bad for bringing a literal silver bullet as long as it pushes your chances in the matchup from dead (ie, sub 30%) to alive (ie, around 45% against Living End)
Trying to convince a friend who's a Legacy Elves player to try Modern.
Can anyone please give me a quick overview of this deck's match ups against the tier one decks of Modern? According to Sheridan's latest data, tier one is currently Jund, Burn, Infect, RG Tron, Affinity, Jeskai Control, Scapeshift and Abzan Company (whew, very diverse!)
Just a quick "even", "slightly (un)favoured", "(un)favoured" or "heavily (un)favoured" for each deck would be really helpful. Couldn't find this information in the primer.
Thanks!
Hey! No problem at all. This is the site where I look. This store is one of the biggest in Japan and hosts a team of platinum level pros that often make top eight in pro tours. This store started a monthly magic games series recently that attracts about 60-80 people. Finally, here is a site where a lot of the smaller tournaments and big ones are represented in one place (you have to click on the phrase next to the MTG flag in each column. Let me know if you need more help navigating!
Thank you so much for your diligence in pursuing betterment for this deck! We all appreciate it immensely.
BGElvesBG and BUGNissa ElvesBUG Faithful Elfer since May 1st, 2015
Results: SCG IQ Top 8, Monthly Modern Masters Top 4
Going left through right:
Jund - favoured game 1, unfavoured 2/3
Burn - favoured
Infect - I feel favoured, but other people in this forum feel unfavoured so I'll take the diplomatic route and say even
RG Tron - heavily unfavoured
Affinity - Technically even, but lets be honest you can't beat some Affinity hands.
Nahiri Jeskai - I actually feel fine against this deck. They tap out a lot and leave you plenty of openings, further the steer away from Supreme makes it better for us. I'd say its still unfavoured, however.
Scapeshift - Unfavoured, but we can race assuming no wipes.
Abzan Company - Heavily favoured. You're faster by 2-3 turns.
Midrange/Control decks you can be favored against them by running as much card advantage as you can with Lead the Stampede and/or Sylvan Messenger. While this doesn't gurantee victory, it can and does provide ways to outgrind them. However, in doing so you lose speed and specific answers.
Affinity, Infect, and Burn can be made more manageable with Chord buids as you can now have a toolkit to answer them in the form of hatebears and more reliability in Chording in your winning piece. However, the deck is more vulnerable to targeted removal and therefore it maybe more difficult to assemble a chord and win turn.
I have found Affinity is manageable really no matter what build you have. You are fast and have the sideboard being Green or Green/White to handle Affinity. Infect I have found to be as bad if not worse then Tron. Our previous answer in terms of spellskite is both good and bad. It isn't as reliable as once was as Infect is generally carrying Spellskite-specific hate and Countermagic against Chording/Company so it is unfavorable I think no matter what we do. We can win it, but they are reliably faster and have disruption. Also our combo in the first 2-3 turns require us to tap our dudes and our mana which is the turn they go off.
I tried removing Nettle Sentinel, but I didn't find that much meaningful difference. It was good to replace it with mana dork 9-12 just to be more consistant, but I think for lead builds, the lack of attackers off of nettle sentinel untaps can be relevant to put pressure. I would keep them in Lead builds for the Elf-storming effect that is similar but weaker then in legacy, but also due to the more agro nature of the deck. It is less part of the Chord combo.
However for the Specific Question - This is how I feel against the decks. I have run Lead and Lead/Messenger. I haven't really ran Chord is a long long while, so please understand that my bias.
Jund - I feel like I am favored game one. If I am playing with Messengers, I feel favored in general.
Burn - I have only lost against Burn once. Burn is favored for us. The grindier the match the better for us.
Infect - I feel heavily unfavored in this matchup regardless of the game.
RG Tron - I feel mixed. I have beaten tron multiple times, but it requires really fast hands and they don't have a boardwipe. I feel though each time I was lucky. Unfavored as much as Infect is.
Affinity - Since we are both fast agro/combo decks. I feel this is a matchup that is determined by your hand. Games 2-3, I think we are favored.
Nahiri Jeskai - I haven't played it, but I imagine it would be difficult, but not impossible with the more card advantage version you go.
Scapeshift - I think this is unfavored. I have faced scapeshift, a couple times, but I haven't beat any version other then Titanshift which is more favorable to us then other versions.
Abzan Company - I think we are just heavily favored in that we are faster then them, no matter what version we play.