Notes:
- Most of the decks I tended to bring in magus of the moon would just die to their lightning bolts or red sweeper effects (like Amulet Bloom)
- Aven Mindcensor also felt weak for similar reasons
+ Chameleon of the Colossus is better than I anticipated it would be and am loving it so far over Wren's Run Packmaster
+ Leyline of Vitality is now my go to for Rx decks. Once you get a lord out they then have to bolt the lord before using pyroclasm, giving you an extra turn to build your board and go off.
+ One of Craterhoof is decent, not great, but there are times it is better than ezuri making it worth it to have
+ I think a split of 3 Dwynen's Elite / 1 Shaman of the pack is excellent. Being able to chord for a shaman for a kill after having pushed through almost lethal is great. Or hittting it off of a CoCo with a Dwynen's elite is sweet
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Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
So I have tuned in and out of this thread for a little while now and have been playing elves since shortly after it's inception because I had all the important pieces for it having played elf ball back when Heritage Druid was in standard. I am mainly posting now to provide yet another list and opinions on my version of the deck which I placed 12-3 over the past week across 4 different tournaments (three 4 rounders and a 3 rounder).
Couple comments on the list to note before you jump on some of the obvious things. I mainly had 4x Elvish Visionary (that you see in the sideboard) in the main instead of 3x Essence Warden and 1x Rhys the Exiled. I really haven't liked them all that much. The extra card draw is nice as usual but its still just a 1/1 onboard at the end of the day. After playing with Dywnen's Elite the past couple of week (over the moon by the way. SO much power and explosive plays, I am rarely ever disappointed) I felt like I was getting too many 2 drops in hand that just didn't do enough (mainly visionaries). I also realized that there were a lot of matchups that I was bringing in the lifegain component in their place anyway so I mainboarded them to try it out. (I am still investigating the other replacements like Fauna Shaman and Imperious Perfect(I cant help but think having 8-9 lords being decent)). Gotta say, there were several matchups (Suicide Zoo, Grixis Delver and Jeskai Control to name a few) that I loved just having some extra lifegain in the main as well as another 1cc Elf to aid in the explosive turn 2 Heritage Druid plays. Long story short, I am thinking of putting 4x Fauna Shaman in the side for matchups where you need your 1 of answer (Robots, Infect, Tron). Matchups that gave me the most issues are G/R Tron and Robots. I have the answer for Tron (1 of Magus of the Moon probably in the main in the Rhys slot, most of my cards are being moved still and that is one of them) and I need a Kataki, War's Wage (which I don't own and tracking it down to replace Wurmcoil) for the Robots matchup. Additionally Fauna Shaman gets around Grafdigger's Cage in robots who dont always have the removal to hit her before you untap with it. Anyway, if you got any questions or comments let me know. Either way I have been extremely happy and got $140 store credit for the low low cost of $20 to myself this past week. I'll try to start writing match notes and uploading results more consistently as I try new things.
A Quick and newbie question: Why don't GW elf decks run fetches with some temple gardens? For example 4 windswept heath and 2 temple garden? Wouldent it be better to get the lands out of the way in favor of drawing more elfs?
Just wanted to post my deck, looking forward to any suggestions. I run a solid GW elf deck mainbording a BFT which has saved me many of times first game.
Regarding Creatures:
What do u guys think about BFT mainboard? I'm thinking of dropping another Visionary in favor of fourth Dwynen's Elite too. 2x Ezuri with Mirror entity seems enough for me, despite seeing that most decks run 3 Ezuris + ME. I think i will also be adding a Chameleon Colossus in the SB, but not sure what to replace. Possible Choke? Also, do you guys think its better to mainboard reclamation sage or Scooze?
Regarding Lands:
Lands: I only run 1 Nykthos, because it has screwed me over more times on the opening hand not providing green mana than actually helping me win the game. I am also running some fetches with temple gardens, since SB is white heavy and 4 Razorverges just arent sometimes enough. I could run 2 more Windswept with a total of 4, but that would mean having only 3 forests in the deck. Is that worth it?
Regarding Sideboard:
As i said, i will probably be adding a Chameleon Colossus. Also, what do u guys think about Stony Silence, Mark of the Asylum and Hushwind Gryff chordable against Splinter Twin? What cards Should i replace?
Thanks a lot for the suggestions. I will leave you with my decklist:
^Any of our toolbox cards works main in the right meta. Mainboard Ooze instead of Sage unless your meta calls for the opposite.
It seems like enough until your Ezuri/ME dies enough times, and they will.
1 Nykthos is the perfect amount imo. Run 2-3 Horizon Canopy and maybe 4 Cavern (can fix in a pinch). No fetches. You don't need Corrosion/Gust and Kataki, Silence and Kataki (other creature answers for Tron), Sage and Gust. Gryff hurts us too. Use more Spellskite for Twin if you find the 1 not enough.
A Quick and newbie question: Why don't GW elf decks run fetches with some temple gardens? For example 4 windswept heath and 2 temple garden? Wouldent it be better to get the lands out of the way in favor of drawing more elfs?
A Quick and newbie question: Why don't GW elf decks run fetches with some temple gardens? For example 4 windswept heath and 2 temple garden? Wouldent it be better to get the lands out of the way in favor of drawing more elfs?
In addition to what destroyermaker said, they also lower our health which causes additional issues for burn. The fact that we have a landbase that does not hurt us much (canopy does a little) is nice against burn and aggro. I personally still run only a few Horizon Canopy because I feel that too many of them still hurts us sort of a lot against burn.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
2 has felt like a good balance to me, but I may experiment with 3. How many do others run, and how often do you find yourself using the white mana or cycling? Too often? Not often enough?
How's the singleton Copperhorn Scout performing for you? I run one myself, would like to compre notes - I think its the single best tech for quickening our clock.
I like it a lot int he flex creature role. It can end games and if drawn naturally it doesn't gum up your hand.
Deck thinning not mattering is also not 100% correct, as even the article you linked admits that in mono-colored aggro decks with limited CMC it can make an appreciative difference... albeit at a significantly higher cost of life than initially expected.
But where deck thinning does matter to our decks is creature concentration for Collected Company and Lead the Stampede/ Sylvan Messenger. Every fetch has effectively removed 2 non creature cards from the deck which increases our odds of hitting 2+ creatures while digging with CoCo/Stampede/Messenger by ~3-4%... so depending on your build Its worth considering. I wouldnt necessarily go the full x12 forest fetches the way Modern Burn does it, but x8 fetches in a Naya/ Abzan build or x4 fetches in a Selesnya/ Gruul/ Golgari build isnt the worst game plan.
On a related note, lands... some players have been moving away from Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx bc it feels like a win more card, but how do people feel about singletons or x2 of other utility lands that could help us in the midgame attrition game against decks like Jund. Lands like Gavony Township or Kessig Wolf Run
On a related note, lands... some players have been moving away from Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx bc it feels like a win more card, but how do people feel about singletons or x2 of other utility lands that could help us in the midgame attrition game against decks like Jund. Lands like Gavony Township or Kessig Wolf Run
All three have the same downside but Nykthos fits into our plan A the best. I would say if you are looking for a plan B I like the Gavony Township a lot more than the Kessig Wolf Run. Wolf Run works better when running it with fewer and better threats where as we more resemble a swarm deck. I have been running 2 Nykthos and in general its usually fine. I can recall a few games it gummed me up but in general its very infrequent.
I think its a little bit of a question as to what tactics you are going for. I can actually see the Township as more of an option if running the Lead the Stampede package as you tend to be a little less focused and able to assemble a specific setup and need to be more able to do just general beat down. For a Chord of Calling build I still think that Nykthos is going to be the better way to go of the colorless lands.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
In regards to fetches/shocks. I have been running 4 of each for a while now and have never lost a match to burn (to be fair I have a fair amount of life gain to play around with). Now onto the comments that filtering is a myth. I read the entire article and I think it doesn’t exactly do justice to the situation in question. Yes the amount it affects top deck draws is significantly small but you forget we are also running Collected Company which is 6 “draws” at once. Doing the math a bit here with my deck. I run 17 lands, 8 spells and 35 creatures. Typically I get 2 lands and 5 nonlands (say 1 spell 4 creatures as it typically works out), of course we will say for sake of this discussion that one of the lands is a fetch. If I play Collected Company on turn 3 (mana dork T1, dump most of hand turn 2 but not enough to win turn 3 so I save Company for end of opponents turn), there will be 3 draws, (probability is in the favor of 1 land 2 creatures) meaning that total cards left in the deck are 13 lands (3 drawn, 1 fetched) and 36 nonlands (7 spells 29 creatures). This means you have the following chances over the next 6 cards of finding a land (assuming you hit no lands after each subsequent card) 36.1%(13/36), 37.1%(13/35), 38.2%(13/34), 39.3%(13/33), 40.6%(13/32), 41.9%(13/31). (For those doing comparison math at home, here is the corresponding numbers for you if I had not fetched; 38.8%(14/36), 40.0%(14/35), 41.1%(14/34), 42.4%(14/33), 43.75%(14/32), 45.1%(14/31)). That is a 2.7% difference and remember that is JUST a chance of hitting a land. Add to that the (much smaller) chance of hitting a spell and you cut into your chance of hitting your creatures. Sometimes things still don’t play to your favor with Collected Company and that still sucks (and every game in which CoCo for some reason whiffed or hit 1 creature which feels like a whiff depending on the creature, I have lost). We have a great matchup against burn as it is and the only other aggro match which has given me problems (Robots) is not because of a life or 2. It’s because they have either infect coming in for 10 (and life doesn’t matter) or a creature so big it just kills me outright and I have no answer (bear in mind I don’t own the typical Kataki answer to them yet so that matchup will probably get easier with that addition). Now I know that I kinda spitballed this reply together and it isn’t ran through simulators like the article, but he did say that it seem to make a huge difference til later in the game (ie once cards have been thinned from the deck altogether), but CoCo advances us “6 turns” in topdecks. I think it’s significant enough to run fetches, not for filtering but mana fixing. Filtering is just a side bonus as it helps us get to what we want to find with CoCo.
Ninja Edit: Dang you Chr0m3_c0y0t3 and work, I was typing up and mathing my response and you got there first ha ha.
I love Nykthos as it is effectively like an additional Archdruid that can’t be bolted. I have never been gummed up by the colorless mana it provides. I did cut from 2 down to 1 because they ALWAYS seemed to travel in packs (hyperbole I know but it happened to me twice in 1 tournament and I was done. additionally I wanted Ghost Quarters to help combat things like Tron).
2 has felt like a good balance to me, but I may experiment with 3. How many do others run, and how often do you find yourself using the white mana or cycling? Too often? Not often enough?
I started with 1 Horizon Canopy and recently picked up a second copy. One feels really rare but at the same time I don't want my opening landbase to be multiple Horizon Canopy so I only want a few of them so that ideally I am not really working with more than one at a time. They have some trade off which is that they are really good against combo and control and not as good against burn / aggro. I think depending on what sort of a meta you expect a different count of them can vary. Depending on how well you fair against aggro and burn decks their count can also vary.
I don't usually cycle it until I run out of gas or if I get flooded with lands.
In defense of Nykthos, I just won a game vs Twin with just Nykthos, Pendelhaven, and Cavern on turn 4 or 5 with ME and 7 green devotion activation. This has happened on several different occasions with ME/Ezuri activations when next turn I would have likely been dead. About the only thing I would substitute them out for at this point (I run three currently) is Horizon Canopy, which is a bit too expensive for me. That said I would still play it as a one-of as it has saved my skin many a time. I think people are viewing it as a win more card (which it can be) but it can also be very helpful pulling you out of tight mana situations especially if you don't hit a t1 dork or your land drops. Personally I always try to leave it up if I have to pay for any Mana Leak type spells or something. In short, I used to think it was a so-so win more card but now I think it has its uses in the standard GW deck. Probably not so great in the Naya/GB versions though.
One thing I will say is that people really have gotten to know when to read Collected Company / Chord of Calling from this deck when I am playing it. Something like Gavony Township could really open more mind games and if a blue player is keeping back mana you can screw with them and just push the township instead of walking into the counter.
Just a random thought. But when I pass turn with mana up on like turn 3 people tend to know what I am doing which is sometimes annoying.
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I have officially moved to MTGNexus. I just wanted to let people know as my response time to salvation decks being bumped is very hit or miss.
In regards to fetches/shocks. I have been running 4 of each for a while now and have never lost a match to burn (to be fair I have a fair amount of life gain to play around with). Now onto the comments that filtering is a myth. I read the entire article and I think it doesn’t exactly do justice to the situation in question. Yes the amount it affects top deck draws is significantly small but you forget we are also running Collected Company which is 6 “draws” at once. Doing the math a bit here with my deck. I run 17 lands, 8 spells and 35 creatures. Typically I get 2 lands and 5 nonlands (say 1 spell 4 creatures as it typically works out), of course we will say for sake of this discussion that one of the lands is a fetch. If I play Collected Company on turn 3 (mana dork T1, dump most of hand turn 2 but not enough to win turn 3 so I save Company for end of opponents turn), there will be 3 draws, (probability is in the favor of 1 land 2 creatures) meaning that total cards left in the deck are 13 lands (3 drawn, 1 fetched) and 36 nonlands (7 spells 29 creatures). This means you have the following chances over the next 6 cards of finding a land (assuming you hit no lands after each subsequent card) 36.1%(13/36), 37.1%(13/35), 38.2%(13/34), 39.3%(13/33), 40.6%(13/32), 41.9%(13/31). (For those doing comparison math at home, here is the corresponding numbers for you if I had not fetched; 38.8%(14/36), 40.0%(14/35), 41.1%(14/34), 42.4%(14/33), 43.75%(14/32), 45.1%(14/31)). That is a 2.7% difference and remember that is JUST a chance of hitting a land. Add to that the (much smaller) chance of hitting a spell and you cut into your chance of hitting your creatures. Sometimes things still don’t play to your favor with Collected Company and that still sucks (and every game in which CoCo for some reason whiffed or hit 1 creature which feels like a whiff depending on the creature, I have lost). We have a great matchup against burn as it is and the only other aggro match which has given me problems (Robots) is not because of a life or 2. It’s because they have either infect coming in for 10 (and life doesn’t matter) or a creature so big it just kills me outright and I have no answer (bear in mind I don’t own the typical Kataki answer to them yet so that matchup will probably get easier with that addition). Now I know that I kinda spitballed this reply together and it isn’t ran through simulators like the article, but he did say that it seem to make a huge difference til later in the game (ie once cards have been thinned from the deck altogether), but CoCo advances us “6 turns” in topdecks. I think it’s significant enough to run fetches, not for filtering but mana fixing. Filtering is just a side bonus as it helps us get to what we want to find with CoCo.
Ninja Edit: Dang you Chr0m3_c0y0t3 and work, I was typing up and mathing my response and you got there first ha ha.
Does this mean, that we should be running a few fetches in the future? If they got more pluses than minuses?
I am actually in 100% agreement. I was thinking the same thing of including it as a 1of. Additionally I was thinking of moving to 2 overgrown tombs 2 temple gardens so I can get shaman of the pack who I love and the good white sideboard cards. Also adding instant speed +1/+1 counters makes board wipes dangerous.
Also I tend to be out of gas by turn 3 sometimes. It's nice to have a mana dump that furthers the wincon
People conflate Nykthos being win-more sometimes with being win-more always. I have plenty of first hand experience with it getting me the kill when otherwise I would not have.
Does this mean, that we should be running a few fetches in the future? If they got more pluses than minuses?
I think it's personal preference but best in mind I am running fetches and shocks to ensure mana fixing. The filtering it does is purely a bonus. I do pay a lot of games where I fetch a basic forest but I'm no way in hell running 8 fetches. Just the 4 do nicely.
One thing I will say is that people really have gotten to know when to read Collected Company / Chord of Calling from this deck when I am playing it. Something like Gavony Township could really open more mind games and if a blue player is keeping back mana you can screw with them and just push the township instead of walking into the counter.
Just a random thought. But when I pass turn with mana up on like turn 3 people tend to know what I am doing which is sometimes annoying.
This is why I cut CoCo after game 1 of facing a deck I know has counters. Although in my experience they hold up mana for Chord and usually willing to let us roll the dice with CoCo. What about Boseiju, Who Shelters All as a one-of in a Nykthos slot? It's probably best served as a sideboard card in this deck (if it's even worth it) as it is a dead draw for every other card in the deck. Some Ad Nauseam players run it to make sure they can get their combo off uninterrupted.
Ninja Edit: Dang you Chr0m3_c0y0t3 and work, I was typing up and mathing my response and you got there first ha ha.
Haha, sorry dude. You had the math down to the exact percentage though, I just threw out an estimate based on traditional calculations to determine CoCo density values. Either way we got people thinking about fetches in this deck :grin:
Its especially important in the decks running Lead the Stampede and Sylvan Messenger in order to maximize density for hits greater than 2.
One thing I will say is that people really have gotten to know when to read Collected Company / Chord of Calling from this deck when I am playing it. Something like Gavony Township could really open more mind games and if a blue player is keeping back mana you can screw with them and just push the township instead of walking into the counter.
Just a random thought. But when I pass turn with mana up on like turn 3 people tend to know what I am doing which is sometimes annoying.
Having the ability to bluff a CoCo with Gavony Township is really valuable, bc we can still get value from the bluff
One thing I will say is that people really have gotten to know when to read Collected Company / Chord of Calling from this deck when I am playing it. Something like Gavony Township could really open more mind games and if a blue player is keeping back mana you can screw with them and just push the township instead of walking into the counter.
Just a random thought. But when I pass turn with mana up on like turn 3 people tend to know what I am doing which is sometimes annoying.
This is why I cut CoCo after game 1 of facing a deck I know has counters. Although in my experience they hold up mana for Chord and usually willing to let us roll the dice with CoCo. What about Boseiju, Who Shelters All as a one-of in a Nykthos slot? It's probably best served as a sideboard card in this deck (if it's even worth it) as it is a dead draw for every other card in the deck. Some Ad Nauseam players run it to make sure they can get their combo off uninterrupted.
I never cut CoCo because usually that counterspell is Remand. Run it out at end of turn, if they counter it you get to play it again. Even against Cryptic I run it out at the end of their turn so they cant counter/tap the team. They are forced to choose the option and most will let it resolve (so they can tap the team and draw). Works great when you run Shaman of the Pack because it is a lose lose situation for them. I don't think we need Boseiju at all. If you really get annoyed with counters I'd run something like Dosan the Falling Leaf. Not perfect but its a one of. Either way, I don't think I have ever worried about a counter. I think the better option against Cryptic is to hold open Gavony Township/CoCo. If you think they have the counter in hand, buff the squad and keep slamming into the face. When they try to tap the team you can then CoCo to flood the board.
Ninja Edit: Dang you Chr0m3_c0y0t3 and work, I was typing up and mathing my response and you got there first ha ha.
Haha, sorry dude. You had the math down to the exact percentage though, I just threw out an estimate based on traditional calculations to determine CoCo density values. Either way we got people thinking about fetches in this deck :grin:
Its especially important in the decks running Lead the Stampede and Sylvan Messenger in order to maximize density for hits greater than 2.
All good man, ha ha I drafted it up, posted and was all proud of myself. Refreshed the page and was like... dang not fast enough ha ha. I didn't even think about the Lead the Stampede and Sylvan Messenger route (which I totally think is viable and considering it myself). I am wondering if I can cut into my sideboard though to run it. I run several spots I am willing to flex if needed. I think the 4x Elvish Visionary is literally there as I tested playing without them this last week (I really like not seeing them). I am already considering 4x Fauna Shaman for those matchups where I want to tutor up the right answer. Additionally there are matchups where its more advantageous I think I'd be willing to side out a couple Ezuri for more lord beatdowns and that would cater to a more Sylvan Messenger/Lead the Stampede type build (this is usually implemented against pyroclasm where in order to get an Ezuri would leave me with no mana but hitting a lord (maybe already having one on board) would save them). I would probably run 1 or the two mainboarded as to make sideboarding easier. I am still playing around with that proof of concept as I have been winning a lot of games from simply lords alone. (Barfing hand onto board turn 2, using CoCo turn 3 and hit 2 lords so turn 4 is swinging for crazy amounts). My mainboard 4x slot that I am still playing with is the 3x Essence Warden and 1x Rhys the Exiled (because I don't own a 4th Essence Warden, though Rhys has been really strong). I think my options that I am moving between are 4x Fauna Shaman, 4x Sylvan Messenger, or 4x Imperious Perfect (moving the lord count to 9!!!). I could easily find slots like the 1 Reclamation Sage in the main (that could be cut or moved to side) for other things as they come up. So much flexibility with this decklist.
Not to burst any bubbles but you guys failed to consider the effect of fetching AFTER resolving companies, shuffling waste back into the library from the bottom of the deck. Happens.
If you're in GW, you shouldn't run fetches (horizon canopy is better). The best reason to run them is color fixing.
Edit: ...the only real reason to run them is color fixing.
Not to burst any bubbles but you guys failed to consider the effect of fetching AFTER resolving companies, shuffling waste back into the library from the bottom of the deck. Happens.
If you're in GW, you shouldn't run fetches (horizon canopy is better). The best reason to run them is color fixing.
Edit: ...the only real reason to run them is color fixing.
You misunderstand. Its not the order of the non creature permanents that matters when thinning the deck for increased hits off of CoCo/ Lead the stampede/ messenger, its the density of non creature permanents that matters.
Every non creature card you remove from your library increases your chances of hitting 2 coco targets by ~2%. Even more for Stampede/ Messenger. Without the ability to manipulate the top 6 cards of your library, mathematically the order is an unknown thats assumed to be randomly distributed.
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4 Elvish Mystic
4 Heritage Druid
4 Llanowar Elves
4 Nettle Sentinel
1 Spellskite
4 Dwynen's Elite
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Mirror Entity
3 Ezuri, Renegade Leader
4 Elvish Archdruid
1 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Chord of Calling
4 Collected Company
Lands - 18
2 Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
4 Cavern of Souls
4 Razorverge Thicket
8 Forest
1 Burrenton Forge-Tender
1 Kataki, War's Wage
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Spellskite
1 Thornweald Archer
1 Beast Within
1 Elvish Champion
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Chameleon Colossus
4 Leyline of Vitality
1 Fracturing Gust
Notes:
- Most of the decks I tended to bring in magus of the moon would just die to their lightning bolts or red sweeper effects (like Amulet Bloom)
- Aven Mindcensor also felt weak for similar reasons
+ Chameleon of the Colossus is better than I anticipated it would be and am loving it so far over Wren's Run Packmaster
+ Leyline of Vitality is now my go to for Rx decks. Once you get a lord out they then have to bolt the lord before using pyroclasm, giving you an extra turn to build your board and go off.
+ One of Craterhoof is decent, not great, but there are times it is better than ezuri making it worth it to have
+ I think a split of 3 Dwynen's Elite / 1 Shaman of the pack is excellent. Being able to chord for a shaman for a kill after having pushed through almost lethal is great. Or hittting it off of a CoCo with a Dwynen's elite is sweet
Legacy:
combo elves
Modern:
White Rock (41-24-4 in matches. Beginning 10/14/14. Last updated 1/2/15)
List:
4 Dark Confidant
3 Siege Rhino
1 Thrun, The Last Troll
Spells - 20
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
3 Thoughtseize
4 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
1 slaughter pact
1 path to exile
1 Disfigure
1 damnation
3 lingering souls
NCP - 4
3 Liliana of the Veil
1 Bow of Nylea
4 verdant Catacombs
2 marsh flats
2 windswept heath
2 Swamp
1 Forest
1 Plains
2 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 overgrown tomb
1 godless shrine
1 temple garden
1 Treetop Village
2 stirring wildwood
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Thrun, the last troll
2 Duress
1 Creeping Corrosion
2 Stony Silence
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Back to nature
1 Utter End
1 Golgari Charm
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Heritage Druid
4x Nettle Sentinel
3x Essence Warden
4x Dwynen's Elite
4x Elvish Archdruid
4x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
2x Shaman of the Pack
1x Elvish Champion
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Rhys the Exiled
2x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
Lands
4x Windswept Heath
4x Overgrown Tomb
2x Cavern of Souls
1x Nyxthos, Shrine to Nyx
1x Ghost Quarters
5x Forest
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Phyrexian Revoker
4x Elvish Visionary
1x Tajuru Preserver
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Choke
1x Eternal Witness
1x Tainted Remedy
1x Bow of Nylea
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Wurmcoil Engine
Couple comments on the list to note before you jump on some of the obvious things. I mainly had 4x Elvish Visionary (that you see in the sideboard) in the main instead of 3x Essence Warden and 1x Rhys the Exiled. I really haven't liked them all that much. The extra card draw is nice as usual but its still just a 1/1 onboard at the end of the day. After playing with Dywnen's Elite the past couple of week (over the moon by the way. SO much power and explosive plays, I am rarely ever disappointed) I felt like I was getting too many 2 drops in hand that just didn't do enough (mainly visionaries). I also realized that there were a lot of matchups that I was bringing in the lifegain component in their place anyway so I mainboarded them to try it out. (I am still investigating the other replacements like Fauna Shaman and Imperious Perfect(I cant help but think having 8-9 lords being decent)). Gotta say, there were several matchups (Suicide Zoo, Grixis Delver and Jeskai Control to name a few) that I loved just having some extra lifegain in the main as well as another 1cc Elf to aid in the explosive turn 2 Heritage Druid plays. Long story short, I am thinking of putting 4x Fauna Shaman in the side for matchups where you need your 1 of answer (Robots, Infect, Tron). Matchups that gave me the most issues are G/R Tron and Robots. I have the answer for Tron (1 of Magus of the Moon probably in the main in the Rhys slot, most of my cards are being moved still and that is one of them) and I need a Kataki, War's Wage (which I don't own and tracking it down to replace Wurmcoil) for the Robots matchup. Additionally Fauna Shaman gets around Grafdigger's Cage in robots who dont always have the removal to hit her before you untap with it. Anyway, if you got any questions or comments let me know. Either way I have been extremely happy and got $140 store credit for the low low cost of $20 to myself this past week. I'll try to start writing match notes and uploading results more consistently as I try new things.
Regarding Creatures:
What do u guys think about BFT mainboard? I'm thinking of dropping another Visionary in favor of fourth Dwynen's Elite too. 2x Ezuri with Mirror entity seems enough for me, despite seeing that most decks run 3 Ezuris + ME. I think i will also be adding a Chameleon Colossus in the SB, but not sure what to replace. Possible Choke? Also, do you guys think its better to mainboard reclamation sage or Scooze?
Regarding Lands:
Lands: I only run 1 Nykthos, because it has screwed me over more times on the opening hand not providing green mana than actually helping me win the game. I am also running some fetches with temple gardens, since SB is white heavy and 4 Razorverges just arent sometimes enough. I could run 2 more Windswept with a total of 4, but that would mean having only 3 forests in the deck. Is that worth it?
Regarding Sideboard:
As i said, i will probably be adding a Chameleon Colossus. Also, what do u guys think about Stony Silence, Mark of the Asylum and Hushwind Gryff chordable against Splinter Twin? What cards Should i replace?
Thanks a lot for the suggestions. I will leave you with my decklist:
4x Llanowar Elves
4x Elvish Mystic
4x Nettle Sentinel
4x Heritage Druid
4x Elvish Archdruid
3x Elvish Visionary
3x Dwynen's Elite
2x Ezuri, Renegade Leader
1x Reclamation Sage
1x Essence Warden
1x Mirror Entity
1x Spellskite
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
4x Chord of Calling
4x Collected Company
Lands:
1x Okina, Temple to the Grandfathers
1x Pendelhaven
1x Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx
2x Temple Garden
2x Windswept Heath
3x Cavern of Souls
4x Razorverge Thicket
5x Forest
1x Burrenton Forge-Tender
1x Kor Firewalker
1x Kataki, War's Wage
1x Fracturing Gust
1x Melira, Sylvok Outcast
1x Creeping Corrosion
1x Elvish Champion
1x Scavenging Ooze
1x Eternal Witness
2x Dismember
1x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Beast Within
1x Choke
It seems like enough until your Ezuri/ME dies enough times, and they will.
1 Nykthos is the perfect amount imo. Run 2-3 Horizon Canopy and maybe 4 Cavern (can fix in a pinch). No fetches. You don't need Corrosion/Gust and Kataki, Silence and Kataki (other creature answers for Tron), Sage and Gust. Gryff hurts us too. Use more Spellskite for Twin if you find the 1 not enough.
Thinning mattering is a myth http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/print.asp?ID=3096
In addition to what destroyermaker said, they also lower our health which causes additional issues for burn. The fact that we have a landbase that does not hurt us much (canopy does a little) is nice against burn and aggro. I personally still run only a few Horizon Canopy because I feel that too many of them still hurts us sort of a lot against burn.
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[Modern] Allies
I like it a lot int he flex creature role. It can end games and if drawn naturally it doesn't gum up your hand.
But where deck thinning does matter to our decks is creature concentration for Collected Company and Lead the Stampede/ Sylvan Messenger. Every fetch has effectively removed 2 non creature cards from the deck which increases our odds of hitting 2+ creatures while digging with CoCo/Stampede/Messenger by ~3-4%... so depending on your build Its worth considering. I wouldnt necessarily go the full x12 forest fetches the way Modern Burn does it, but x8 fetches in a Naya/ Abzan build or x4 fetches in a Selesnya/ Gruul/ Golgari build isnt the worst game plan.
On a related note, lands... some players have been moving away from Nykthos, Shrine to Nyx bc it feels like a win more card, but how do people feel about singletons or x2 of other utility lands that could help us in the midgame attrition game against decks like Jund. Lands like Gavony Township or Kessig Wolf Run
All three have the same downside but Nykthos fits into our plan A the best. I would say if you are looking for a plan B I like the Gavony Township a lot more than the Kessig Wolf Run. Wolf Run works better when running it with fewer and better threats where as we more resemble a swarm deck. I have been running 2 Nykthos and in general its usually fine. I can recall a few games it gummed me up but in general its very infrequent.
I think its a little bit of a question as to what tactics you are going for. I can actually see the Township as more of an option if running the Lead the Stampede package as you tend to be a little less focused and able to assemble a specific setup and need to be more able to do just general beat down. For a Chord of Calling build I still think that Nykthos is going to be the better way to go of the colorless lands.
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[Modern] Allies
Ninja Edit: Dang you Chr0m3_c0y0t3 and work, I was typing up and mathing my response and you got there first ha ha.
I started with 1 Horizon Canopy and recently picked up a second copy. One feels really rare but at the same time I don't want my opening landbase to be multiple Horizon Canopy so I only want a few of them so that ideally I am not really working with more than one at a time. They have some trade off which is that they are really good against combo and control and not as good against burn / aggro. I think depending on what sort of a meta you expect a different count of them can vary. Depending on how well you fair against aggro and burn decks their count can also vary.
I don't usually cycle it until I run out of gas or if I get flooded with lands.
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[Modern] Allies
Just a random thought. But when I pass turn with mana up on like turn 3 people tend to know what I am doing which is sometimes annoying.
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Does this mean, that we should be running a few fetches in the future? If they got more pluses than minuses?
Also I tend to be out of gas by turn 3 sometimes. It's nice to have a mana dump that furthers the wincon
I think it's personal preference but best in mind I am running fetches and shocks to ensure mana fixing. The filtering it does is purely a bonus. I do pay a lot of games where I fetch a basic forest but I'm no way in hell running 8 fetches. Just the 4 do nicely.
Haha, sorry dude. You had the math down to the exact percentage though, I just threw out an estimate based on traditional calculations to determine CoCo density values. Either way we got people thinking about fetches in this deck :grin:
Its especially important in the decks running Lead the Stampede and Sylvan Messenger in order to maximize density for hits greater than 2.
Having the ability to bluff a CoCo with Gavony Township is really valuable, bc we can still get value from the bluff
I never cut CoCo because usually that counterspell is Remand. Run it out at end of turn, if they counter it you get to play it again. Even against Cryptic I run it out at the end of their turn so they cant counter/tap the team. They are forced to choose the option and most will let it resolve (so they can tap the team and draw). Works great when you run Shaman of the Pack because it is a lose lose situation for them. I don't think we need Boseiju at all. If you really get annoyed with counters I'd run something like Dosan the Falling Leaf. Not perfect but its a one of. Either way, I don't think I have ever worried about a counter. I think the better option against Cryptic is to hold open Gavony Township/CoCo. If you think they have the counter in hand, buff the squad and keep slamming into the face. When they try to tap the team you can then CoCo to flood the board.
All good man, ha ha I drafted it up, posted and was all proud of myself. Refreshed the page and was like... dang not fast enough ha ha. I didn't even think about the Lead the Stampede and Sylvan Messenger route (which I totally think is viable and considering it myself). I am wondering if I can cut into my sideboard though to run it. I run several spots I am willing to flex if needed. I think the 4x Elvish Visionary is literally there as I tested playing without them this last week (I really like not seeing them). I am already considering 4x Fauna Shaman for those matchups where I want to tutor up the right answer. Additionally there are matchups where its more advantageous I think I'd be willing to side out a couple Ezuri for more lord beatdowns and that would cater to a more Sylvan Messenger/Lead the Stampede type build (this is usually implemented against pyroclasm where in order to get an Ezuri would leave me with no mana but hitting a lord (maybe already having one on board) would save them). I would probably run 1 or the two mainboarded as to make sideboarding easier. I am still playing around with that proof of concept as I have been winning a lot of games from simply lords alone. (Barfing hand onto board turn 2, using CoCo turn 3 and hit 2 lords so turn 4 is swinging for crazy amounts). My mainboard 4x slot that I am still playing with is the 3x Essence Warden and 1x Rhys the Exiled (because I don't own a 4th Essence Warden, though Rhys has been really strong). I think my options that I am moving between are 4x Fauna Shaman, 4x Sylvan Messenger, or 4x Imperious Perfect (moving the lord count to 9!!!). I could easily find slots like the 1 Reclamation Sage in the main (that could be cut or moved to side) for other things as they come up. So much flexibility with this decklist.
If you're in GW, you shouldn't run fetches (horizon canopy is better). The best reason to run them is color fixing.
Edit: ...the only real reason to run them is color fixing.
You misunderstand. Its not the order of the non creature permanents that matters when thinning the deck for increased hits off of CoCo/ Lead the stampede/ messenger, its the density of non creature permanents that matters.
Every non creature card you remove from your library increases your chances of hitting 2 coco targets by ~2%. Even more for Stampede/ Messenger. Without the ability to manipulate the top 6 cards of your library, mathematically the order is an unknown thats assumed to be randomly distributed.