Thats fine, but the creature package is a stable win condition that doesn't go to time, and the creatures have flash (except blade splicer) and offer some kind of advantage. I like Restoration Angel/SCMage/VClique as they provide many options and are smooth in the sense they have flash playing well with instants. The other way is to play Planeswalkers and sweepers like Soorani/Nassif, and I used to play that version alot (except I mainboarded a batterskull) and while it was decent, I didn't really like leaning so heavily on Planeswalkers and Colonnades to win. Planeswalkers are decent, but they are expensive, and tapping out in Modern just bad with combo around. Gideon is kind safe to tap out for because he has immediate impact, but even that is very risky. With Glenn's approach you play a solid game of early removal spells and spell snares/leaks etc until you can flash in a value guy or play blade splicer on turn 4 with snare/path/dismember up.
The one mana counterspells in Modern are rather lack luster, the best of which tends to be Spell Snare.
I bring up Mana Tithe A) i think it is underrated as a card B) is gives us a turn 1 play that doesnt accelerate our opponent c) can be a complete surprise/blow out against a lot of decks that dont see it coming
The surprise factor of being able to leave up just a plains and counter something is a great play (when the opponent sits there thinking we are bluffing or only have path).
There has been a lot of discussion for finishers for the deck, I kno it is kinda far out there, but what about adding a gifts package (and a watery grave/godless shrine). It doesnt have to be a full 4 gifts in the deck (we run 1 baneslayer/ 2 gideon/2 wurmcoil/2 batterskull etc for the finishers now) so adding 1-2 gifts/rites/fatty doesnt take up much more space in the deck and the gifts are useful for helping to find spells needed to control the board before finding a finisher.
Rickster - Mana Tithe might lose some value later in teh game but so does a lot of lower CMC spells. I think you'd be surprised how often just forcing the opponent to pay 1 more mana can change the game in later turns.
The one mana counterspells in Modern are rather lack luster, the best of which tends to be Spell Snare.
I bring up Mana Tithe A) i think it is underrated as a card B) is gives us a turn 1 play that doesnt accelerate our opponent c) can be a complete surprise/blow out against a lot of decks that dont see it coming
The surprise factor of being able to leave up just a plains and counter something is a great play (when the opponent sits there thinking we are bluffing or only have path).
While I like Mana Tithe, I think that if you want a turn 1 play other than Path and Spell Snare, I'd play Serum Visions instead.
Because tapout sucks? WHo can play tapout in Modern when their is Storm/Twin/Scapeshift/POD? You need counterpells, and a good dose of them. 4 snare/4 leaks/2 remand/2 cryptic is perfectly fine. Add think twices and sphinx rev, path, snap, clique and the deck is more than capable of playing draw go. Sorry, saying UW cant play draw go is pure malarky.
This is the problem I ran into. My finishers all require me to spread myself incredibly thin in order to activate (Colonnade) or cast (Gideon Jury or Baneslayer or Wurmcoil). This is so hard when combo is a big thing. I've only run this at one tournament so far, though. Kiki Control wasn't too bad. I don't think they really have enough burn for that to be a problem. Pod was manageable, post-board. Affinity was tough. Haven't faced too many other decks, yet. Two Verdicts in the main is too much in my meta. I didn't face down enough aggro. I think that, to be successful, this deck has to include some prison elements.
I also think this isn't an established deck because the suite of spells must be pretty tightly meta-tuned. You can't copy and paste this list. Here's what I ran this week:
This is a list that won a premier event not long ago. (I can't post links because I need to have 5 posts.) It's on mtgtop8 on the second page. If someone could post it, would be great. I'm testing it, will let you know what I think next week. Looks amazing though.
I can't imagine not running calciform pools. It seems to be one of the strongest reasons to be straight UW over UWR. Especially in builds running Sphinxe's rev
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Yep, Calciform Pools make it a lot more excusable to be running 25 lands.
As far as finishers go, Wurmcoil strikes me as one of the better ones right now, but it all comes down to synergy in the end; if someone already wants to be running detention spheres, jace b and finks, then titans are great.
My big issue with titans is their restricting other slots and usually causing snapcasters to get cut most of the time. Similarly, I am not jazzed on playing detention spheres or finks in my 60.
This is what I've been running locally. The mana tithe is excellent because I'm known to play one, and so I get surprise value if new players show up and I get the ability to force opponents to play around it if I don't. The mindslaver has been my win-con of choice simply because of the splash value of having engineered explosives--It's great when opposing Blue Moon/Twin/Storm decks try to play blood moon to lock me out and I just use the shiny new mountain to cast EE for three. Academy ruins + Thirst for Knowledge is pretty good for generating mid-late game value, the revs are possibly the weak slot and I'm not sure if I want to cut them or not. My meta has several boggles players and several pod players that maindeck a thrun, hence the heavy split towards wrath of god. I don't run additional sweepers in the board because of the maindeck count of 3. EE at two wipes a lot of the threats in the format--bob, goyf, young pyromancer, cranial plating, arcbound ravager, snapcaster mage, melira, etc.
Yes, I am a local area mod. WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVE
Primary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
Hey all, I’ve been a long time player of UWR until recently I got the idea in my head that lightning bolt and helix just aren’t playable currently. After playing against UR and RUG twin, pod, and jund a million times they were basically instant speed lava spikes so I’ve taken to testing out the classic UW style of control in modern. After writing out this post for a bit I noticed that it is pretty damned long, so I split it up into different sections so it won’t take up the entire page all by itself. Sorry if anybody finds this a little annoying.
In any case, here’s the list that I’ve been running for reference and keep in mind that I’m talking from a control oriented stand point without wanting to slide further into the midrange value builds.
The reason I decided to mess with UW is because lightning bolt just doesn’t KILL anything anymore. Sure it hits the dorks in affinity and zoo, tags bobby, and can go to the face, but cards like deceiver exarch, resto angel, and kitchen finks are WAY more important to answer. Anything that can 1 for 1 a kitchen finks can deal with a dark confidant just fine.
In an effort to make my removal spells ACTUALLY get rid of what they’re targeting I’ve been running 3 condemn in the main and a single last breath. Granted they’re dead against combo, but they’re only slightly more useless than burn spells. I’ve chosen a single last breath because it’s an answer to a turn 2 bob and all of the twin combo creatures. I’ve also considered celestial flare, oust, and Azorius Charm, but I haven’t actually played with them yet. They don’t really seem to do what I want done, but I’m willing to be wrong if shown otherwise.
There might be a better option than last breath, but I also like that I can use it as a glorified gain 4 in some matches. And the 4 life is the same reason that I’m not using dismember because without access to lightning helix paying 4 life is a very big deal. And of note dismember also does not exile or have a similar effect against pod.
On the subject of cards being missed from red, the one I miss the most is electrolyze for the cantrip with potential value. In it's place I added in a second think twice and it seems to be working out well in all matches outside of affinity and zoo. Would wall of omens be better since I’m running a pair of angels as well? The card just feels so mopey outside of a twin shell and without an angel it doesn’t actually give you any real value as an 0/4 wall.
How to say “No” and “Go away” in modern.
To help out with combo matches I’m running a pair of angels and cliques which have been amazing in nearly every other match as well, except for affinity where clique is mediocre at best. There is also a singleton negate in the main because I feel that another efficient counterspell is necessary, but a 4th mana leak isn’t where I want to be and it seems to be the best option. I do like that it can hit an early pod after you cast a path on a finks or some such and has at least some value in most matches.
I’m not running a full set of snares because they’re bad too often to run the full 4, but are good enough to have at least some number. They’re totally insane against remand combo decks, affinity, and are at least OK against jund and pod. I’ve considered cutting one for another counter but I don’t like any of my other options. Remand is completely unplayable in a deck that isn’t trying to close out the game sooner rather than later be it with a ton of dorks or an “I win” combo.
Of all the finishers to pick from I chose the classic standby of Elspeth and Gideon as they’re monsters against pod, good against jund, and at least frustrating against control. They’re both terribad against combo of course, but any non flash threat will be as well. So I think that the discussion over “5 mana sorcery speed uberness” is entirely pointless when talking about combo matches. Be it batterskull, planeswalkers, angels, wurmcoils or titans, they’re all garbage.
Speaking of combo, that is oddly enough the only place where I REALLY miss having the burn in my deck which is why I’m still looking for other ways of interacting. Point being, if the “best” card in modern is lightning bolt and a control player wishes that they had a play set of Lava Spike, you know there’s a problem. The only thing I can come up with are the flash creatures and the negate that I mentioned. Maybe a third clique could be useful, or would remand actually be decent in fending off a lethal scapeshift without being so bad everywhere else? Anytime I play remand in a control list I’m just so embarrassed because it doesn’t ever stop what I’m afraid of.
Basic island, go.
With the mana base I wanted to go heavy on basics to be as blood moon proof as possible while still having solid mana, currently I am only 1 blue source short of Frank Karsten’s recommended 22 to cast cryptic command on time with enough white to cast Elspeth on 4 and have the 4 buddy lands come out untapped. With having a lot of land space opened by not using so many fetches and third color shock lands, I also included a pair of temples which have been absolutely amazing. I wish I could run more, but 6 guaranteed tapped lands is the limit to not be a noticeable factor.
I also like that I don't have to worry about having my 4th land coming out tapped nearly as often as I would if I had a play set of seachrome coast in the mana base. I honestly don't think that the "fast" lands are wanted in this deck since we will rarely be casting anything on turn 1. However if you want to run some number of serum visions, then by all means ignore me and run the scars lands.
There is also something to be said for not taking an average of 3-6 damage every game from fetches and shocks. While playing UWR there have been many games that were lost entirely due to being unable to fetch a basic or being at 1 and unable to fetch at all.
I haven’t tested out calciform pools because it just seems way too clunky, especially when you’re entire deck minus 3-ish cards are instants. I suppose I can see switching a pair of glacial forts for them. What are everyone’s experiences with them so far in a more draw-go oriented list? Do they actually allow you to cut down to 25 lands from 26 without any draw backs?
I’m also fond of running a small number of fetches as actual dual lands that can fetch a fountain when I need a proper dual or can just turn into the appropriate basic I need to ignore blood moon. The same can be said about the higher than normal basic land count. They’re untapped at no cost, avoid tec edge and so forth.
Another odd card that I've played around a bit with is faerie conclave. I was originally running it as another value land that can put a bit of pressure on combo decks and is able to attack a liliana early on, but when it was killed to a bolt or, god forbid, an electrolyze it was such a blow out I decided to cut it for another basic island. I might be wrong and the conclave could be a great addition or it may just be too cute.
A side of value, please.
And lastly the SB is just a port of my UWR board with a few replacements. I haven’t tested runed halo yet (using it over counterflux) but it seems strong against what I want it for, namely scapeshift, kiki control, and the “weird” decks out there. Is it possible that another pair of negates or dispels would be better?
I’m also willing to believe that since non creature based combo (scapeshift, tron, etc.) is such a bad game 1 match that the Baneslayer should just be a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or another counterspell of sorts. I like the angel currently because it’s basically battle of wits against any creature based deck, especially birthing pod. At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control a card named Baneslayer angel you win the game.
I initially tried running a single basic mountain to have access to counterflux in the board, as a sort of “Surprise! Fetch a basic mountain, booyah!” but with only 4 fetches and the mountain as red sources, I didn’t seem to have it when I needed it with enough consistency to be happy. Granted the fireworks don’t start until maybe turn 7-8ish but 5 red sources is super low even with two think twice in the deck. This also assumes that you will NEVER need to fetch a blue or white land. Yes you can run a steam vents or sacred foundry, but then tec edge can get you if you have to run it out early which makes it a liability against UWR and other decks.
One weird card that I’ve considered seriously was Sunlance because there are matches where 1 mana 3 damage plus Snapcaster value is amazing, but I think that an explosives would just be better in those matches while having additional value against boggles, storm, and cranial plating. Perhaps the last breath in the main could become a sun lance.
Lastly I am terrified of any deck that can burn you out, even UWR control, because of the noticeable lack of Absorb life gain in the deck. So much so that I’m wondering if it’s worth it to run some amount of Dragon's Claw, Timely Reinforcements, or Kitchen Finks in the board. Is this a decent idea or is it just my paranoia talking?
I think that’s enough of my ramblings and “lightning bolt is bad” heresy. It’s great that there’s a dedicated thread for this now since I really believe that straight UW is the way to go for dedicated control in modern right now.
I liked ur bolt = bad rant, i had a very similar experience when i went to a ptq this weekend with UWR control. I was going to play UW control, but i fell into all the bolt = win hype that is modern's logo. I was super dissappointed with bolt in about 3/5s of my games, against pod x2 and soul sisters it was a useless card, against UR delver and jund it held its own but didnt break the game.
I think non-damage, non-sending the creature to graveyard removal is the way to go right now in the meta, too much persist or creatures that just survive bolt are around.
I am moving to a eternal control deck (basically UW with some green to allow cryptic lock) but i think u r right that bolt has had its day in the sun and it isnt the card ppl think it is right now.
I don't think red is required. Lightning bolt was good, but it's merits wane over time. U/W Control is a fine option, prolly Hallowed Burial is actually strong because of persist and Thruns (which seem ever so popular). I do think a creature package is required and is a good thing. SCMages for value, VCliques for disruption and Restoration Angel for re-use and just plain awesomeness. I like SRev but 1 is fine really, as the cmc for real value is tough and you don't want them clogging hands.
Has anyone tried Archangel of Thune in here? i feel like that card is a little under played in modern for some reason
Archangel isn't good in a control deck because you don't take advantage of the free gavony township trigger, which is the whole reason the card is playable to begin with. Like I said with all of the other 5 drops, they're terrible against combo and so, in my opinion at least, it's really down to teferi or baneslayer depending on if you want to hate on control/combo or aggro.
The questions that really need to be answered is if 4 path is enough against the creatures that don't need to attack (bob, hate bears, deceiver exarch with a splinter twin being cast on it), is kitchen finks worth it for the life gain, and what should the mana base look like. Other than that it's a fairly easy port of UWR which is a solid deck already, just not positioned well because bolt has turned into lava spike. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
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This is what I've been playing lately. The mana base works very well (even though it looking horrible on paper) and my focus is on crushing Midrange (Pod, BG) and having decent postboard game against Twin and Scapeshift. Veldalken Shackles is probably the most powerful and underplayed card in modern. Resolving it against many of the tier 1 decks wins you the game within a few turns. The combination of Path, Dismember, Spellskite and Shackles make Twin a solid matchup. My latest change is switching 1 Spreading Seas for 1 Dismember maindeck because of the many Twin decks. People interested in UW Control should give this version a try, it's really solid.
This is what I've been playing lately. The mana base works very well (even though it looking horrible on paper) and my focus is on crushing Midrange (Pod, BG) and having decent postboard game against Twin and Scapeshift. Veldalken Shackles is probably the most powerful and underplayed card in modern. Resolving it against many of the tier 1 decks wins you the game within a few turns. The combination of Path, Dismember, Spellskite and Shackles make Twin a solid matchup. My latest change is switching 1 Spreading Seas for 1 Dismember maindeck because of the many Twin decks. People interested in UW Control should give this version a try, it's really solid.
What is everyone's thoughts on calciform pools? Whenever I try and run a pair in my list they're constantly just getting in the way and screwing up my curve. So far in a bunch of games I've only really be able to take advantage of making a ton of mana twice. And in those cases it was to activate 3 celestial colonnades while having snap+cryptic available in a game I was already winning. Anybody have some stories where they really pulled their weight and weren't just a case of "woo shiny" value plays?
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I dont have much experience with calciform pools, but when watching Nasssif play they were really good. I guess they are better in the almost creature-less versions where you can afford to load them every turn.
I didn't feel like having a horrible matchup against Affinity up to now (playing only preboarded games), I didn't even need to draw Wrath of God. Drawing Wrath usually is a win, as is Shackles. But I'm gonna get some more testing in. I don't like the third Stony Silence because of the obvious bad interaction with Vedalken Shackles. I usually only bring them in against Affinity and Tron. They don't come in against Pod.
After a bunch of games, I've decided not to run calciform pools, they just got in my way far, far too much. One thing I tried out that seems correct is I cut the 2 planeswalkers and a condemn for 3 kitchen finks. They give us the life gain that's missing from lightning helix which is still important, and is a great way to help pressure opposing walkers, more specifically liliana of the veil. Anytime I play against jund and they don't resolve liliana the game is easy, but if it ever resolves I can never come close to winning. The finks also helps handle incidental dorks that peck away at your life total. Like when a control player just jams a snapcaster for zero value or turns 2 and 3 to beat down with, or a handful of memnites from affinity. While these clowns aren't that dangerous, you have to handle them eventually and the finks stops all of the mediocre beats in their place.
I also cut the 26th land for a remand, which is something I am loathe to do, but with the significantly reduced amount of fetchlands, extra cantrips, and a pair of scry lands I seem to be able to get away with it just fine. And finally, last breath has been absolutely miserable so I'm using dismember in it's place, which is less miserable, albeit barely. Here's the current list I'm jamming with:
Might as well swap Banelsayer for Batterskull honestly in the sideboard. In grindy matches Batterskull will win over time. I don't really care for KFinks, rather it be blade splicer.
What is everyone's thoughts on calciform pools? Whenever I try and run a pair in my list they're constantly just getting in the way and screwing up my curve. So far in a bunch of games I've only really be able to take advantage of making a ton of mana twice. And in those cases it was to activate 3 celestial colonnades while having snap+cryptic available in a game I was already winning. Anybody have some stories where they really pulled their weight and weren't just a case of "woo shiny" value plays?
Calciform pools is a fantastic card and I think its one of the main reasons to go UW. They're just really strong value. Excess mana at the end of your turns can always be put into it for use later. They don't ETB tapped so I'm actually quite confused how they can mess up your curve. If its mana fixing that is your issue, then its likely that your mana base needs to be adjusted, but i'm skeptical that running most lands other than calciform are helpful.
They help to ensure that you have mana to win counterwars, and they can keep allowing you to have access to mana if you aren't able to draw your lands. For what they do, they're very solid additions.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
What is everyone's thoughts on calciform pools? Whenever I try and run a pair in my list they're constantly just getting in the way and screwing up my curve. So far in a bunch of games I've only really be able to take advantage of making a ton of mana twice. And in those cases it was to activate 3 celestial colonnades while having snap+cryptic available in a game I was already winning. Anybody have some stories where they really pulled their weight and weren't just a case of "woo shiny" value plays?
Calciform pools is a fantastic card and I think its one of the main reasons to go UW. They're just really strong value. Excess mana at the end of your turns can always be put into it for use later. They don't ETB tapped so I'm actually quite confused how they can mess up your curve. If its mana fixing that is your issue, then its likely that your mana base needs to be adjusted, but i'm skeptical that running most lands other than calciform are helpful.
They help to ensure that you have mana to win counterwars, and they can keep allowing you to have access to mana if you aren't able to draw your lands. For what they do, they're very solid additions.
They "effectively" ETB tapped because you can't tap them for colored mana the same turn unless you pay an extra 1 colorless to filter which is what has happened to me many more times than being able to utilize the extra mana. I played 20ish games with them always in my opener (so I can see how they work at the start of a game) and another 10 with them just in the deck naturally. When I tried them they required me to drop down to only 3/4 basics to be 90% sure I can cast cryptic on 4 which is not where I want to be. If they're your 4th land you aren't casting cryptic that turn, the same goes for colonnade, coast, and any temples, so I'm not really happy with considering them as a dual land for mana fixing purposes.
Also it is super awkward playing a 2 color deck that folds to blood moon. I think that in a more tap out oriented version of the deck they'd be fine, like with a full compliment of walkers and titans. I prefer to have my lands come out untapped, 90% painless, and on time without rolling over to a blood moon. I think that the value in that is greater than what the pools adds, which isn't something the UWR versions can claim either.
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The one mana counterspells in Modern are rather lack luster, the best of which tends to be Spell Snare.
I bring up Mana Tithe A) i think it is underrated as a card B) is gives us a turn 1 play that doesnt accelerate our opponent c) can be a complete surprise/blow out against a lot of decks that dont see it coming
The surprise factor of being able to leave up just a plains and counter something is a great play (when the opponent sits there thinking we are bluffing or only have path).
I think you could play mana tithe if you're playing geist. A UWR geist deck top 8'd a GP with 2x mana tithes main deck.
Rickster - Mana Tithe might lose some value later in teh game but so does a lot of lower CMC spells. I think you'd be surprised how often just forcing the opponent to pay 1 more mana can change the game in later turns.
This list is similar to the PTQ Hawaii winning list but without Spreading Seas .
What do you guys thinking of Spreading Seas in this type of deck?
4 Kitchen Finks
2 Snapcaster Mage
1 Vendilion Clique
2 Wall of Omens
1 Sun Titan
3 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Leak
4 Spell Snare
4 Path to Exile
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
1 Wrath of God
1 Dismember
1 Shadow of Doubt
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Arid Mesa
3 Island
2 Plains
3 Hallowed Fountain
1 Mystic Gate
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Seachrome Coast
2 Calciform Pools
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
2 Stony Silence
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Disenchant
2 Celestial Purge
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Negate
2 Dispel
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Relic of Progenitus
I want to play 4 resto and 4 cryptic but I'm not sure if the curve would be just slightly too high.
Also not sure if I need more cantrips.
Any thoughts?
While I like Mana Tithe, I think that if you want a turn 1 play other than Path and Spell Snare, I'd play Serum Visions instead.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This is the problem I ran into. My finishers all require me to spread myself incredibly thin in order to activate (Colonnade) or cast (Gideon Jury or Baneslayer or Wurmcoil). This is so hard when combo is a big thing. I've only run this at one tournament so far, though. Kiki Control wasn't too bad. I don't think they really have enough burn for that to be a problem. Pod was manageable, post-board. Affinity was tough. Haven't faced too many other decks, yet. Two Verdicts in the main is too much in my meta. I didn't face down enough aggro. I think that, to be successful, this deck has to include some prison elements.
I also think this isn't an established deck because the suite of spells must be pretty tightly meta-tuned. You can't copy and paste this list. Here's what I ran this week:
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Ghost Quarter
2 Tectonic Edge
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Hallowed Fountain
5 Island
2 Plains
4 Seachrome Coast
Creatures: 9
3 Snapcaster Mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wall of Omens
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Baneslayer Angel
2 Cryptic Command
2 Gideon Jura
4 Mana Leak
4 Path to Exile
1 Spell Snare
1 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Detention Sphere
2 Dissolve
1 Runed Halo
2 Think Twice
1 Spell Snare
2 Damping Matrix
1 Disenchant
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Dispel
1 Dismember
1 Spell Pierce
1 Negate
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spellskite
1 Stony Silence
1 Supreme Verdict
1 Detention Sphere
5 Island
4 Celestial Colonnade
4 Seachrome Coast
4 Tectonic Edge
2 Plains
2 Hallowed Fountain
2 Calciform Pools
1 Moorland Haunt
1 Glacial Fortress
12 CREATURES
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Blade Splicer
1 Wall of Omens
18 INSTANTS and SORC.
4 Path to Exile
4 Cryptic Command
4 Mana Leak
2 Spell Snare
1 Repeal
1 Sphinx's Revelation
5 OTHER SPELLS
2 Detention Sphere
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Feast and Famine
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Supreme Verdict
2 Stony Silence
2 Spellskite
2 Rule of Law
2 Rest in Peace
1 Negate
2 Meddling Mage
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
As far as finishers go, Wurmcoil strikes me as one of the better ones right now, but it all comes down to synergy in the end; if someone already wants to be running detention spheres, jace b and finks, then titans are great.
My big issue with titans is their restricting other slots and usually causing snapcasters to get cut most of the time. Similarly, I am not jazzed on playing detention spheres or finks in my 60.
4 Celestial Collonade
4 Hallowed Fountain
3 Tectonic Edge
2 Calciform Pools
1 Academy Ruins
6 Island
3 Plains
2 Darksteel Citadel
Creatures: (3)
3 Snapcaster Mage
Permission: (15)
4 Cryptic Command
4 Spell Snare
3 Remand
3 Mana Leak
1 Mana Tithe
2 Wrath of God
1 Supreme Verdict
4 Path to Exile
1 Last Breath
1 Celestial Flare
Card Draw: (6)
2 Sphinx's Revelation
4 Thirst for Knowledge
Artifacts: (2 + 2 lands)
1 Mindslaver
1 Engineered Explosives
2 Engineered Explosives
1 Pithing Needle
2 Disenchant
1 Stony Silence
1 Rest in Peace
1 Annul
1 Negate
1 Spell Burst
1 Render Silent
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Grafdigger's Cage
Yes, I am a local area mod.WELP. GOOD LIFE CHANGES ALL HAPPEN AT ONCE AND SOME ARE MUTUALLY EXCLUSIVEPrimary Decks:
Modern: Esper Draw-Go
Legacy: RUG Lands
EDH: Sidisi turn-3 storm
In any case, here’s the list that I’ve been running for reference and keep in mind that I’m talking from a control oriented stand point without wanting to slide further into the midrange value builds.
4 Path to exile
3 Condemn
1 Last breath
1 Hallowed burial
Counter Magic:
4 Cryptic command
3 Mana leak
3 Spell snare
1 Negate
Value:
4 Snapcaster mage
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Restoration angel
1 Gideon Jura
1 Elspeth, knight-errant
2 Sphinx's Revelation
2 Think twice
3 Tectonic edge
4 Celestial colonnade
2 Scalding tarn
2 Arid mesa
4 Glacial fortress
2 Temple of enlightenment
2 Hallowed fountain
5 Island
2 Plains
2 Stony silence
2 Celestial purge
2 Runed halo
1 Baneslayer angel
1 Disenchant
1 Relic of progenitus
1 Crucible of worlds
1 Hallowed burial
1 Wrath of god
1 Engineered explosives
1 Dispel
1 Negate
And STAY dead!
The reason I decided to mess with UW is because lightning bolt just doesn’t KILL anything anymore. Sure it hits the dorks in affinity and zoo, tags bobby, and can go to the face, but cards like deceiver exarch, resto angel, and kitchen finks are WAY more important to answer. Anything that can 1 for 1 a kitchen finks can deal with a dark confidant just fine.
In an effort to make my removal spells ACTUALLY get rid of what they’re targeting I’ve been running 3 condemn in the main and a single last breath. Granted they’re dead against combo, but they’re only slightly more useless than burn spells. I’ve chosen a single last breath because it’s an answer to a turn 2 bob and all of the twin combo creatures. I’ve also considered celestial flare, oust, and Azorius Charm, but I haven’t actually played with them yet. They don’t really seem to do what I want done, but I’m willing to be wrong if shown otherwise.
There might be a better option than last breath, but I also like that I can use it as a glorified gain 4 in some matches. And the 4 life is the same reason that I’m not using dismember because without access to lightning helix paying 4 life is a very big deal. And of note dismember also does not exile or have a similar effect against pod.
On the subject of cards being missed from red, the one I miss the most is electrolyze for the cantrip with potential value. In it's place I added in a second think twice and it seems to be working out well in all matches outside of affinity and zoo. Would wall of omens be better since I’m running a pair of angels as well? The card just feels so mopey outside of a twin shell and without an angel it doesn’t actually give you any real value as an 0/4 wall.
How to say “No” and “Go away” in modern.
To help out with combo matches I’m running a pair of angels and cliques which have been amazing in nearly every other match as well, except for affinity where clique is mediocre at best. There is also a singleton negate in the main because I feel that another efficient counterspell is necessary, but a 4th mana leak isn’t where I want to be and it seems to be the best option. I do like that it can hit an early pod after you cast a path on a finks or some such and has at least some value in most matches.
I’m not running a full set of snares because they’re bad too often to run the full 4, but are good enough to have at least some number. They’re totally insane against remand combo decks, affinity, and are at least OK against jund and pod. I’ve considered cutting one for another counter but I don’t like any of my other options. Remand is completely unplayable in a deck that isn’t trying to close out the game sooner rather than later be it with a ton of dorks or an “I win” combo.
Of all the finishers to pick from I chose the classic standby of Elspeth and Gideon as they’re monsters against pod, good against jund, and at least frustrating against control. They’re both terribad against combo of course, but any non flash threat will be as well. So I think that the discussion over “5 mana sorcery speed uberness” is entirely pointless when talking about combo matches. Be it batterskull, planeswalkers, angels, wurmcoils or titans, they’re all garbage.
Speaking of combo, that is oddly enough the only place where I REALLY miss having the burn in my deck which is why I’m still looking for other ways of interacting. Point being, if the “best” card in modern is lightning bolt and a control player wishes that they had a play set of Lava Spike, you know there’s a problem. The only thing I can come up with are the flash creatures and the negate that I mentioned. Maybe a third clique could be useful, or would remand actually be decent in fending off a lethal scapeshift without being so bad everywhere else? Anytime I play remand in a control list I’m just so embarrassed because it doesn’t ever stop what I’m afraid of.
Basic island, go.
With the mana base I wanted to go heavy on basics to be as blood moon proof as possible while still having solid mana, currently I am only 1 blue source short of Frank Karsten’s recommended 22 to cast cryptic command on time with enough white to cast Elspeth on 4 and have the 4 buddy lands come out untapped. With having a lot of land space opened by not using so many fetches and third color shock lands, I also included a pair of temples which have been absolutely amazing. I wish I could run more, but 6 guaranteed tapped lands is the limit to not be a noticeable factor.
I also like that I don't have to worry about having my 4th land coming out tapped nearly as often as I would if I had a play set of seachrome coast in the mana base. I honestly don't think that the "fast" lands are wanted in this deck since we will rarely be casting anything on turn 1. However if you want to run some number of serum visions, then by all means ignore me and run the scars lands.
There is also something to be said for not taking an average of 3-6 damage every game from fetches and shocks. While playing UWR there have been many games that were lost entirely due to being unable to fetch a basic or being at 1 and unable to fetch at all.
I haven’t tested out calciform pools because it just seems way too clunky, especially when you’re entire deck minus 3-ish cards are instants. I suppose I can see switching a pair of glacial forts for them. What are everyone’s experiences with them so far in a more draw-go oriented list? Do they actually allow you to cut down to 25 lands from 26 without any draw backs?
I’m also fond of running a small number of fetches as actual dual lands that can fetch a fountain when I need a proper dual or can just turn into the appropriate basic I need to ignore blood moon. The same can be said about the higher than normal basic land count. They’re untapped at no cost, avoid tec edge and so forth.
Another odd card that I've played around a bit with is faerie conclave. I was originally running it as another value land that can put a bit of pressure on combo decks and is able to attack a liliana early on, but when it was killed to a bolt or, god forbid, an electrolyze it was such a blow out I decided to cut it for another basic island. I might be wrong and the conclave could be a great addition or it may just be too cute.
A side of value, please.
And lastly the SB is just a port of my UWR board with a few replacements. I haven’t tested runed halo yet (using it over counterflux) but it seems strong against what I want it for, namely scapeshift, kiki control, and the “weird” decks out there. Is it possible that another pair of negates or dispels would be better?
I’m also willing to believe that since non creature based combo (scapeshift, tron, etc.) is such a bad game 1 match that the Baneslayer should just be a Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir or another counterspell of sorts. I like the angel currently because it’s basically battle of wits against any creature based deck, especially birthing pod. At the beginning of your upkeep, if you control a card named Baneslayer angel you win the game.
I initially tried running a single basic mountain to have access to counterflux in the board, as a sort of “Surprise! Fetch a basic mountain, booyah!” but with only 4 fetches and the mountain as red sources, I didn’t seem to have it when I needed it with enough consistency to be happy. Granted the fireworks don’t start until maybe turn 7-8ish but 5 red sources is super low even with two think twice in the deck. This also assumes that you will NEVER need to fetch a blue or white land. Yes you can run a steam vents or sacred foundry, but then tec edge can get you if you have to run it out early which makes it a liability against UWR and other decks.
One weird card that I’ve considered seriously was Sunlance because there are matches where 1 mana 3 damage plus Snapcaster value is amazing, but I think that an explosives would just be better in those matches while having additional value against boggles, storm, and cranial plating. Perhaps the last breath in the main could become a sun lance.
Lastly I am terrified of any deck that can burn you out, even UWR control, because of the noticeable lack of
Absorblife gain in the deck. So much so that I’m wondering if it’s worth it to run some amount of Dragon's Claw, Timely Reinforcements, or Kitchen Finks in the board. Is this a decent idea or is it just my paranoia talking?I think that’s enough of my ramblings and “lightning bolt is bad” heresy. It’s great that there’s a dedicated thread for this now since I really believe that straight UW is the way to go for dedicated control in modern right now.
I think non-damage, non-sending the creature to graveyard removal is the way to go right now in the meta, too much persist or creatures that just survive bolt are around.
I am moving to a eternal control deck (basically UW with some green to allow cryptic lock) but i think u r right that bolt has had its day in the sun and it isnt the card ppl think it is right now.
Archangel isn't good in a control deck because you don't take advantage of the free gavony township trigger, which is the whole reason the card is playable to begin with. Like I said with all of the other 5 drops, they're terrible against combo and so, in my opinion at least, it's really down to teferi or baneslayer depending on if you want to hate on control/combo or aggro.
The questions that really need to be answered is if 4 path is enough against the creatures that don't need to attack (bob, hate bears, deceiver exarch with a splinter twin being cast on it), is kitchen finks worth it for the life gain, and what should the mana base look like. Other than that it's a fairly easy port of UWR which is a solid deck already, just not positioned well because bolt has turned into lava spike. Oh, how the mighty have fallen.
3 Restoration Angel
2 Vendilion Clique
2 Wall of Omen
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Sun Titan
2 Vedalken Shackles
2 Wrath of God
2 Spreading Seas
1 Dismember
4 Path to Exile
4 Cryptic Command
3 Spell Snare
3 Mana Leak
1 Sphinx Revelation
2 Arid Mesa
8 Island
1 Plains
4 Hallowed Fountain
4 Celestial Colonnade
1 Mystic Gate
4 Tectonic Edge
1 Batterskull
1 Threads of Disloyalty
1 Runed Halo
1 Dismember
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Spellskite
2 Negate
2 Dispel
2 Celestial Purge
2 Stony Silence
You should run some more Stony Silence. This deck seems like it has a horrible Affinity matchup.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I didn't feel like having a horrible matchup against Affinity up to now (playing only preboarded games), I didn't even need to draw Wrath of God. Drawing Wrath usually is a win, as is Shackles. But I'm gonna get some more testing in. I don't like the third Stony Silence because of the obvious bad interaction with Vedalken Shackles. I usually only bring them in against Affinity and Tron. They don't come in against Pod.
I also cut the 26th land for a remand, which is something I am loathe to do, but with the significantly reduced amount of fetchlands, extra cantrips, and a pair of scry lands I seem to be able to get away with it just fine. And finally, last breath has been absolutely miserable so I'm using dismember in it's place, which is less miserable, albeit barely. Here's the current list I'm jamming with:
3 kitchen finks
2 condemn
1 dismember
1 hallowed burial
4 cryptic command
3 mana leak
3 spell snare
1 negate
1 remand
4 snapcaster mage
2 restoration angel
2 vendilion clique
2 think twice
2 sphinx's revelation
4 celestial colonnade
2 temple of enlightenment
3 glacial fortress
1 mystic gate
2 hallowed fountain
2 scalding tarn
1 arid mesa
5 island
2 plains
2 runed halo
2 celestial purge
2 stony silence
1 negate
1 dispel
1 teferi, mage of zhalfir
1 crucible of worlds
1 hallowed burial
1 wrath of god
1 relic of progenitus
1 baneslayer angel
1 disenchant
Calciform pools is a fantastic card and I think its one of the main reasons to go UW. They're just really strong value. Excess mana at the end of your turns can always be put into it for use later. They don't ETB tapped so I'm actually quite confused how they can mess up your curve. If its mana fixing that is your issue, then its likely that your mana base needs to be adjusted, but i'm skeptical that running most lands other than calciform are helpful.
They help to ensure that you have mana to win counterwars, and they can keep allowing you to have access to mana if you aren't able to draw your lands. For what they do, they're very solid additions.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
They "effectively" ETB tapped because you can't tap them for colored mana the same turn unless you pay an extra 1 colorless to filter which is what has happened to me many more times than being able to utilize the extra mana. I played 20ish games with them always in my opener (so I can see how they work at the start of a game) and another 10 with them just in the deck naturally. When I tried them they required me to drop down to only 3/4 basics to be 90% sure I can cast cryptic on 4 which is not where I want to be. If they're your 4th land you aren't casting cryptic that turn, the same goes for colonnade, coast, and any temples, so I'm not really happy with considering them as a dual land for mana fixing purposes.
Also it is super awkward playing a 2 color deck that folds to blood moon. I think that in a more tap out oriented version of the deck they'd be fine, like with a full compliment of walkers and titans. I prefer to have my lands come out untapped, 90% painless, and on time without rolling over to a blood moon. I think that the value in that is greater than what the pools adds, which isn't something the UWR versions can claim either.