@NessOnett: While I can't speak for everyone, I personally haven't taken anything Bocephus has posted as anything except trolling for a long time. He is stubborn, refuses to acknowledge when he is mislead, and has a format ideal that is incredibly unhealthy.
Since they never used the ban list to form a format in the past, or at least like they are now, I dont know how you can say there has never been a successful format that uses them. You are not giving Wotc a chance. You have a premeditated idea of how things should be done and are upset they are not being done that way.
You like Legacy, you want Modern to be handled like Legacy. Why? Legacy is still around.
I personally dont like Legacy, I want Modern to be handled in a different way then they handled Legacy. Simply because Legacy is still around. If Wotc decided to be done with Legacy, I would understand if Wotc started treating Modern more like they have Legacy.
Different formats need to be handled in different ways. If all formats are handled the same, especially when trying to mix old with new, all formats will end up close to the same feel, which is bad to me.
Modern can not have Legacy ported decks into the format. The power level of that single deck would dominate the format. You seem to look at cards in a vacuum. Bans have to be done for multiple reasons. From power level, to logistics, to an unfair interaction, to consistency, to dominance to name a few.
I don't get why you refuse to listen. This isn't a Wizards thing. This isn't a magic thing. This isn't a legacy thing. This is how every competitive game, in every genre; from Fighter, to FPS, to TCG, to Tabletop, to RPG, to RTS, to Dota-style, to Sports, to every other competitive game under the sun that has ever existed or will ever exist. I don't know how many times I need to say this simple thing before it sinks in for you. Every time a Banned list is manipulated to change the meta, and not because something is overpowered, it has ALWAYS resulted in the death of the game. And you can draw upon literally hundreds of examples of games that have done this and they have ALL FAILED. And I've explained dozens of times why this is, whether you want to listen to them or not, they aren't difficult to understand.
Nobody wants Modern to be Legacy(well maybe some do, but they don't matter). But your entire argument of "Legacy did it that way, so we have to be different even if it guarantees the format will die soon" is a pretty asinine one(and that's what you're trying to argue whether you see it or not).
But no matter what I write, you're going to continue to ignore it. Read what you want to read. Put words in my mouth. Infer that I'm saying things polar opposite to what I actually want. And make up baseless lies. This post is more for all the people following this conversation, since it's impossible to convince someone who refuses to listen.
I am in my 50s and have been playing games of all sort through my life. I disagree with what you say. You simply feel games handled in a way you deem wrong dont work to your liking. Which is fine, we all have different likes and what not.
Like I have said, its fine we agree to disagree. I dont agree with your thinking, no matter what you call me.
Quote from Valanarch »
While this is true, I don't think that Modern UR Storm with only 8 rituals compares to Legacy ANT and TES other than the basic concept even with the cantrips. Same goes fr every other deck that would benefit from the cantrips in Modern. The main thing standing in Ponder and Preordain's way is Splinter Twin, but I think that the metagame would switch to control to combat it.
I am glad you have admitted you want a control dominated format. Modern storm was too quick and too consistent according to Wotc. The cantrips give too much consistency. If those cantrips would help control now, why were they not helping control before they were banned? Because the combo was too fast and too consistent for control to stop, hence the bans.
t banned BBE because Jund was dominant, not to create diversity. Right now, most of the BGx decks are dead (especially Ajundi). Unbanning BBE would make Jund tier 1 again without making it dominant.
..and at the same time narrow the build from many GBx decks to a single GBR deck.
Can you provide arguments as to why they aren't safe? Also, you also thought that Valakut would kill midrange, that Bitterblossom would only be held in check by Abrupt Decay, and that Wild Nacatl would force out every other aggro deck in the format. I'm just saying that your predictions about unbans haven't held up.
Plenty of people have made arguments against those cards, Wotc included, yet you seem to have it in your head of a certain out come and nothing anyone can tell you will change that.
I will give you Kut, and I have said as much multiple times, but it is way too soon to say anything about kitty or BB.
Quote from Ramanas »
While I can't speak for everyone, I personally haven't taken anything Bocephus has posted as anything except trolling for a long time. He is stubborn, refuses to acknowledge when he is mislead, and has a format ideal that is incredibly unhealthy.
Good to know that everyone that disagrees with your ideas and opinions of the format is a troll.
I did admit to the Valakut talk as a mistake. Goes to show how much you are paying attention.
Already saw 4 new posts from Renasce and Valanarch. Too much to respond to. There is no convincing you guys that your vision on the format is very very different than that of WotC from what we can read from their statements. Until you accept what WotC wants with the format, you'll probably will always be unsatisfied with it. Not that I'm always happy with the format. I hated it when DRS was around and stopped playing it. WotC fixed that, awesome.
I personally would stop playing if preordain and Ponder would come off. I've played Modern during the time they were legal and it was pretty boring, annoying and frustrating for non-blue decks.
Storm cards are the ideal kill cards of engine combo decks because they can't be countered, and they're cheap. Before storm was around, they played giant X-spells. in standard when there were no storm cards, Ascension engine decks played an infinite turn combo.
How would they build up mana? Increasing Vengeance flashbacked off Past in Flames. Switching to a Lotus Bloom build. There are any number of ways to build up mana. But even if you discount all the high-mana cost cards, you still have any number of ways to turn mana+cards into a win. I would list more, but it wouldn't change anything. If you don't understand why the kill card is irrelevant, pointing out more alternatives won't change your mind.
And Grapeshot/Seething Song is nothing like Stoneforge/Batterskull. Rituals can be abused by any number of other cards (Empty, which you mentioned, is just as strong a finisher as Grapeshot, outside of modern Tendrils is even better, Dragonstorm is enabled by rituals in the same way, etc.) There are actually more playable Storm cards than there are playable rituals in the format. There are even more ways to abuse Grapeshot beyond just blunt rituals. Additionally, Grapeshot is useless for anything other than a kill, while Stoneforge is strong at any point in the game. A more accurate comparison would be Stoneforge and Ascension, since Pyromancer Ascension is the primary storm engine, it's powerful at every point in the game, it's critical to winning, and it's not easily replaceable.
Bolded is exactly the point. They are the ideal. That's the problem. Draw is fine. But the 'ideal' draw spell(Ancestral Recall) is overpowered. There's a reason we don't see any Ritual+Banefire decks. Because they are worse. They are weak. They are bad by comparison to storm. They are significantly less consistent. They are easily fizzled. And they rarely even work when goldfishing. At their best they are way slower than grapeshot, even when you add in P+P and RoF, fact.
And if you don't understand why the kill spell(s...the fact that it's so redundant means it can't even be countered is a big sticking point) is the most important thing, I don't know what to say. You proved yourself in the quoted post WHY the kill spell is the most important, because there's so many ways to build up mana that you can't remove them all. But none of those decks are run because Grapeshot is objectively the best, and nothing else comes close. R+D said Storm will never be printed again because it was a mistake and they wish it could be deleted. But rituals have been a magic staple ever since Alpha, and will continue to exist for the infinite future. So either we ban the cheating card(SFM/Grapeshot), or we ban the fair card(Batterskull/SeethingSong) and have R+D forever unable to print anything that's even remotely playable among that type of cards(equipment/Rituals).
Rituals are not 'abused' by any other cards. They are used by them, there's a difference. What's the difference? Grapeshot is USELESS without rituals. That makes it the abuser, and it the problem. Objectively. Where as any number of combo decks can use mana accel. Any number of Timmy decks can use mana accel. But none of them are going to break the turn4 rule like storm does. None of them are going to be omnipresent and uncounterable like storm is. They would all be fair, balanced, and fun.
Which brings us back to BBE. People arguing that "blah blah blah format diversity"(which I don't agree with in the slightest) should be overjoyed by the prospect of Grapeshot being banned. Because it is objectively the best finisher for a ritual deck. What does that mean? That means that if storm survives, it will be split into subsets of Dragonstorm, Banefire, Emrakul(I have my doubts), "Bolt"(are you drunk?), etc. Which according to you is what we want.
@NessOnett: While I can't speak for everyone, I personally haven't taken anything Bocephus has posted as anything except trolling for a long time. He is stubborn, refuses to acknowledge when he is mislead, and has a format ideal that is incredibly unhealthy.
Oh, I'm fully aware that he's a troll. Anyone who has read even a single one of his posts can see that it's blatantly obvious he ignores everything that's said to him, makes things up, puts words in peoples mouths so he has something to disagree with, etc. But I continue to debate 'with' him because, "I'm after them"(which would be all the other people in here silently watching the debate unfold). Eventually they see that I'm responding to things and making valid arguments, while he continues to ignore facts and repeat the same things that have already been proven false.
I remember when discourse wasn't about winning the debate, but about working together to reach an objective truth.
And clearly, we are nowhere near reaching that objective truth.
I think we should do something about that.
Like focusing on how Storm really doesn't work with mana sink spells because Storm isn't High Tide.
I do agree with the first part of your post except that it is a problem. They are the ideal cards. Without them storm would indeed be a lot worse and probably not tier material because of inconsistency. Storm is not a problematic deck in the current meta however. So lets analyse this for a bit:
- WotC says Storm was a mistake, they don't like it and wish it could be deleted
- Banning Warrens and Grape + unbanning rituals means 1 storm deck gone, but dragonstorm returns
What have we won? Nada. WotC obviously wants storm to be a viable tactic otherwise they would have banned the win cons. By unbanning the rituals they automatically should also ban Dragonstorm. Because it probably would make it a better deck than what storm is now. Also, lets set storm aside for a second. With the current card pool, would the banned rituals be abused in another way? Maybe not now, I don't know, but maybe with future sets coming, they could 'break' a deck yet again... I think banning the rituals was the best choice.
I will give you Kut, and I have said as much multiple times, but it is way too soon to say anything about kitty or BB.
I did admit to the Valakut talk as a mistake. Goes to show how much you are paying attention.
You keep bringing this up, but the fact you admitted you were wrong on that doesn't mean anything. What was the alternative, to continue claiming that midrange was gone when Jund was the dominant deck? Admitting you were wrong about it doesn't mean anything at all, because what's the alternative?
Actually, I'd dispute that Grapeshot is the best kill (I for one have seen better results with Empty), but that's beside the point.
Let's accept for a moment the premise that Storm is overpowered and should have cards from it banned for the good of Modern. If that is the case, it's obvious the best card to ban is the most broken, abusive one(s), the ones that make Storm Banworthy. Breaking down the storm deck into its individual components, it essentially plays 5 types of cards:
Lands, which we clearly aren't banning.
Mana acceleration, in this case rituals such as Desperate Ritual.
Dig spells/cantrips/tutors, to get more rituals and to find the engine pieces, in this case cards like Serum Visions.
The engine cards, which generate mana, cards, and storm, making the deck actually work, in this case cards like Pyromancer Ascension.
And the kill card, which turns the mana, cards, and storm into a win, in this case cards like Grapeshot.
What's the notable thing here? The critical part of the deck is NOT the kill card. In fact, in storm decks outside of Modern, players rarely play more than 2 cards with the storm keyword in the combo deck. The critical part, the thing that makes storm storm, is the engine. That's why it's an engine based combo. Of course there are some kills that are more efficient than others, but at the end of the day that doesn't matter: so long as storm has cards in its deck, and as long as the engine is still going, it can satisfy just about any condition it wants to win. Banefire, the example you keep raising, isn't even the best one after Grapeshot and Empty. I would personally just slide in a Storm Entity, a couple bolts, and some more countermagic and win by clearing a path with burn and bashing you to death. Or go a more combo-control route with a million burn spells. If you want to make Modern Storm look different, sure, by all means ban the kill conditions. But that won't make the combo engine any weaker, and the deck will still exist, pretty much just as strong as it was before. If you want to actually improve diversity by banning a card from the storm deck (or replacing banned storm cards with other ones), go for the engines, the enablers that make the combo work. Don't ban Illusions of Grandeur, ban Necropotence.
Also, while I don't advocate unbanning it right now (I want to see how the format shakes out first), I have nothing against unbanning Bloodbraid Elf at some point. I thought it was the wrong card to ban then, and now that the right card has been banned I'm ok with letting it off. I don't know if that last point was referring to me, but if it was, please don't put words in my mouth.
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I will give you Kut, and I have said as much multiple times, but it is way too soon to say anything about kitty or BB.
I did admit to the Valakut talk as a mistake. Goes to show how much you are paying attention.
You keep bringing this up, but the fact you admitted you were wrong on that doesn't mean anything. What was the alternative, to continue claiming that midrange was gone when Jund was the dominant deck? Admitting you were wrong about it doesn't mean anything at all, because what's the alternative?
So because someone is wrong once, they will never be right again? If that was true, no one would ever be right ... ever..
If anyone thinks I am a troll, ignore me. That way you dont have to listen to the 'others' who have an opinion other then yours.
3. You're getting confused in your last sentence with words like "faster" and "eggs." The reason why Sunrise was banned was because the turns were taking too long in terms of minutes. Banning Grapeshot would not make storm's turns take a significantly larger number of minutes, but would make them take more TURNS. These are very different definitions of words like "fast" and "slow" and mean completely different things.
You are the one confusing here.
I know exactly why eggs was banned. It was for clock time issues, not for turn speed issues. Bringing back the mana acceleration and banning the "fast" win cons, will make storm the SAME as eggs.
Because people will need to use slower wincons (that require more clock time to setup).
I can win as consistent with Banefire as i do with Grapeshot. But I would take 30 minutes to gather the mana needed to do so with banefire, while I take 10 to get the storm count for Grapeshot.
With mana acceleration available, people will not take more turns to setup the combo.
The point is that Grapeshot, don't change the turn that the storm engine start, while Seething song do change the turn that you can go off more safely.
People fool themselves if they belive that banning grapeshot and empty will do any good for the format. It will just make storm an annoying deck that can still score 3 turn kills but takes 30 minutes for that because it needs to build up mana for a lethal and uncounterable Banefire.
The kill card decide the CLOCK time that it takes to kill.
The mana accelleration decide de TURN time that it takes to go off.
The issue with storm is the TURN time, so messing with the kill cards is pointless, because it have little impact on the TURN speed.
I do agree with the first part of your post except that it is a problem. They are the ideal cards. Without them storm would indeed be a lot worse and probably not tier material because of inconsistency. Storm is not a problematic deck in the current meta however. So lets analyse this for a bit:
- WotC says Storm was a mistake, they don't like it and wish it could be deleted
- Banning Warrens and Grape + unbanning rituals means 1 storm deck gone, but dragonstorm returns
What have we won? Nada. WotC obviously wants storm to be a viable tactic otherwise they would have banned the win cons. By unbanning the rituals they automatically should also ban Dragonstorm. Because it probably would make it a better deck than what storm is now. Also, lets set storm aside for a second. With the current card pool, would the banned rituals be abused in another way? Maybe not now, I don't know, but maybe with future sets coming, they could 'break' a deck yet again... I think banning the rituals was the best choice.
We will have 'won' a lot. We will have a wider array of decks, all of which are viable in different ways and none of which break the turn4 rule. The second part is the big issue. Because currently storm(according to Wizards) is already in danger of violating that rule right now(needs more data to see). And every card they ever print that adds any amount of consistency or speed in red or blue has to potential to break storm again. This means R+D can never print a good blue or red spell ever again. Dragonstorm would be objectively worse than grapeshot storm(which is why no decks right now run it). It causes 4+ more slots to be taken up by a secondary card(Hellkites), means there's no instant-win if any of them get countered, causes consistency issues if you draw any of those kites, etc. Non-grapeshot/EtW storm would be viable. But it would never ever again be in danger of breaking the turn4 rule.
Actually, I'd dispute that Grapeshot is the best kill (I for one have seen better results with Empty), but that's beside the point.
Let's accept for a moment the premise that Storm is overpowered and should have cards from it banned for the good of Modern. If that is the case, it's obvious the best card to ban is the most broken, abusive one(s), the ones that make Storm Banworthy. Breaking down the storm deck into its individual components, it essentially plays 5 types of cards:
Lands, which we clearly aren't banning.
Mana acceleration, in this case rituals such as Desperate Ritual.
Dig spells/cantrips/tutors, to get more rituals and to find the engine pieces, in this case cards like Serum Visions.
The engine cards, which generate mana, cards, and storm, making the deck actually work, in this case cards like Pyromancer Ascension.
And the kill card, which turns the mana, cards, and storm into a win, in this case cards like Grapeshot.
What's the notable thing here? The critical part of the deck is NOT the kill card. In fact, in storm decks outside of Modern, players rarely play more than 2 cards with the storm keyword in the combo deck. The critical part, the thing that makes storm storm, is the engine. That's why it's an engine based combo. Of course there are some kills that are more efficient than others, but at the end of the day that doesn't matter: so long as storm has cards in its deck, and as long as the engine is still going, it can satisfy just about any condition it wants to win. Banefire, the example you keep raising, isn't even the best one after Grapeshot and Empty. I would personally just slide in a Storm Entity, a couple bolts, and some more countermagic and win by clearing a path with burn and bashing you to death. Or go a more combo-control route with a million burn spells. If you want to make Modern Storm look different, sure, by all means ban the kill conditions. But that won't make the combo engine any weaker, and the deck will still exist, pretty much just as strong as it was before. If you want to actually improve diversity by banning a card from the storm deck (or replacing banned storm cards with other ones), go for the engines, the enablers that make the combo work. Don't ban Illusions of Grandeur, ban Necropotence.
Let's just say for the sake of argument that you're right. And with Grapeshot/EtW gone, we get a version replaced with Storm Entity and Bolts. Why is this bad? We WANT storm to be viable. The key difference between that 'storm' and current storm is that that one would be slower(what Wizards wants), have more interplay and counterplay(what Wizards wants), and would never ever ever ever no matter what non-storm cards are ever printed be able to violate the turn4 rule(what Wizards wants). These are all good things. Yes, killing the engine would KILL THE DECK. But Wizards doesn't want to kill the deck. So again, you've proven why getting rid of Grapeshot(and possibly EtW) is the proper play.
Except that wouldn't make it slower, because the speed of storm is not dependent on its kill card. The kill card is going to be played on the deck's fundamental turn, which is when the engine comes online. As soon as the engine (say, Pyromancer Ascension) is online, winning is academic: you just draw a million cards, cast all the spells, and win with something. Whether that something is a banefire for 20 or a Grapeshot with 19 storm doesn't matter: it's just as fast, and just as interactive or noninteractive, because the card that actually matters, the card that's actually killing you, is the engine card. If it can get the engine going on turn 3 it will win on turn 3. If it can get it going on turn 4 it will win on turn 4. If you can interact with the engine cards, you will have an interactive game. If you can't, you can either race or die. That's why it's an engine-based combo.
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While this is true, I don't think that Modern UR Storm with only 8 rituals compares to Legacy ANT and TES other than the basic concept even with the cantrips. Same goes fr every other deck that would benefit from the cantrips in Modern. The main thing standing in Ponder and Preordain's way is Splinter Twin, but I think that the metagame would switch to control to combat it.
I am glad you have admitted you want a control dominated format. Modern storm was too quick and too consistent according to Wotc. The cantrips give too much consistency. If those cantrips would help control now, why were they not helping control before they were banned? Because the combo was too fast and too consistent for control to stop, hence the bans.
First, I don't want a control-dominated format. I want an equal balance of the 3 major archetypes in MTG (Control, Combo, and Aggro). And I would agree with you about the cantrips if it wasn't for one thing. Because of the bans, Combo is much slower now than it was back then. Control can beat creature-based turn 4 consistent combo decks.
t banned BBE because Jund was dominant, not to create diversity. Right now, most of the BGx decks are dead (especially Ajundi). Unbanning BBE would make Jund tier 1 again without making it dominant.
..and at the same time narrow the build from many GBx decks to a single GBR deck.
Is that worse than having 3 tier 1.5-3 variations on BGx? Junk and Rock don't see much play now anyways. Banning DRS killed Ajundi and BUG was never a thing to begin with. All that BBE would do is kill 2 tier 3 decks while making Jund tier 1, which I don't think would be that horrible of a trade.
Can you provide arguments as to why they aren't safe? Also, you also thought that Valakut would kill midrange, that Bitterblossom would only be held in check by Abrupt Decay, and that Wild Nacatl would force out every other aggro deck in the format. I'm just saying that your predictions about unbans haven't held up.
Plenty of people have made arguments against those cards, Wotc included, yet you seem to have it in your head of a certain out come and nothing anyone can tell you will change that.
I will give you Kut, and I have said as much multiple times, but it is way too soon to say anything about kitty or BB.
You have previously said that Preordain shouldn't have been banned. Also, the WotC arguments are horrible for many of those cards. Ponder and Preordain were banned for making combo decks too consistent, and then two of the best combo decks were banned. AV was banned for being played in JtMS control decks in Legacy and then JtMS was banned. Sword of the Meek was banned based off of a shown list that also included Chrome Mox, Jace, and Dark Depths. BBE was banned because it made Jund too strong and then DRS was banned, even though DRS was the problem card and should have been banned first. And while I can concede that it is reasonable to be concerned about Ponder, Chrome Mox, Bloodbraid Elf, and Sword of the Meek, I have not yet heard a good argument for why Ancestral Vision should stay banned.[/quote]
I do agree with the first part of your post except that it is a problem. They are the ideal cards. Without them storm would indeed be a lot worse and probably not tier material because of inconsistency. Storm is not a problematic deck in the current meta however. So lets analyse this for a bit:
- WotC says Storm was a mistake, they don't like it and wish it could be deleted
- Banning Warrens and Grape + unbanning rituals means 1 storm deck gone, but dragonstorm returns
What have we won? Nada. WotC obviously wants storm to be a viable tactic otherwise they would have banned the win cons. By unbanning the rituals they automatically should also ban Dragonstorm. Because it probably would make it a better deck than what storm is now. Also, lets set storm aside for a second. With the current card pool, would the banned rituals be abused in another way? Maybe not now, I don't know, but maybe with future sets coming, they could 'break' a deck yet again... I think banning the rituals was the best choice.
Wizards has also said that they want decks from Standard's past to be playable in Modern, so Dragonstorm would be preferable to them over normal Storm (especially since it is worse than UR Storm because it needs to spend 4 spots in its deck on Bogardan Hellkites that are useless if naturally drawn). Also, we would gain a lot from that. Enduring Ideal would become a playable deck. Hive Mind would become a playable deck. Dragonstorm would become a playable deck. All-In Red would become a playable deck. And that is just off of the top of my head without thinking much.
Except that wouldn't make it slower, because the speed of storm is not dependent on its kill card. The kill card is going to be played on the deck's fundamental turn, which is when the engine comes online. As soon as the engine (say, Pyromancer Ascension) is online, winning is academic: you just draw a million cards, cast all the spells, and win with something. Whether that something is a banefire for 20 or a Grapeshot with 19 storm doesn't matter: it's just as fast, and just as interactive or noninteractive, because the card that actually matters, the card that's actually killing you, is the engine card. If it can get the engine going on turn 3 it will win on turn 3. If it can get it going on turn 4 it will win on turn 4. If you can interact with the engine cards, you will have an interactive game. If you can't, you can either race or die. That's why it's an engine-based combo.
This is why I wish that Goblin Electromancer had been banned instead of Seething Song.
I agree with LegitKarona that a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens doesn't solve the problem of engine-based combo decks being too powerful if they get their fast mana and efficient cantrips back. In fact, a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens means that Storm could turn to Dragonstorm or even friggin' Ignite Memories if they really wanted to. With premier fast mana and hand sculpting, even crappy Storm cards could pose a major threat. Unconditional fast mana in is extremely dangerous in a format that is balanced by having a "Turn 4 rule". Rather than unban Seething Song/RoF/cantrips and ban Storm cards, I suggest an alternative option: print rituals that engine-based combo decks can't abuse. Something like this:
Fixed Seething Song 2R
Instant
Add RRRRR to your mana pool. This mana can't be spent to cast instants or sorceries.
This "fixed" Seething Song would still allow for decks to still make strong plays off the mana this generates similar to what All-in Red decks used to do in previous formats. Since Storm decks are almost entirely instants and sorceries, they couldn't get any use out of this ritual. Not only that, but the instant/sorcery restriction would also prevent this ritual from being chained with itself or with other rituals to create huge gobs of mana and storm count in a single turn.
Oh, I'm fully aware that he's a troll. Anyone who has read even a single one of his posts can see that it's blatantly obvious he ignores everything that's said to him, makes things up, puts words in peoples mouths so he has something to disagree with, etc. But I continue to debate 'with' him because, "I'm after them"(which would be all the other people in here silently watching the debate unfold). Eventually they see that I'm responding to things and making valid arguments, while he continues to ignore facts and repeat the same things that have already been proven false.
I can see the appeal in that. Though the fact that he's flat out insulted by this is just hilarious.
OT: Seriously why are we still talking about storm at all? It's fine. Nothing right now is screaming for a ban. Give the format time to adjust. If things haven't changed in 3-6 months then start freaking out.
Except that wouldn't make it slower, because the speed of storm is not dependent on its kill card. The kill card is going to be played on the deck's fundamental turn, which is when the engine comes online. As soon as the engine (say, Pyromancer Ascension) is online, winning is academic: you just draw a million cards, cast all the spells, and win with something. Whether that something is a banefire for 20 or a Grapeshot with 19 storm doesn't matter: it's just as fast, and just as interactive or noninteractive, because the card that actually matters, the card that's actually killing you, is the engine card. If it can get the engine going on turn 3 it will win on turn 3. If it can get it going on turn 4 it will win on turn 4. If you can interact with the engine cards, you will have an interactive game. If you can't, you can either race or die. That's why it's an engine-based combo.
Try. Just try. Go ahead. I can wait. I know because I've tried. And you can't. You CAN'T "consistently" generate 21 mana on turn 3. You CAN however "consistently" cast 9 spells, easily. You for some reason have this false assumption that when PA is played, the pilot instantly has 1000 mana and draws 100 cards. This couldn't be further from the truth. The vast majority of the time, even when a storm player takes a 20 minute turn, they rarely pass a dozen mana in the pool at any given time. That is the cold hard truth. But you can see that in any of Finkel's(or anyone elses) games. Storm fizzles...a lot. And when it doesn't fizzle, it BARELY gets there utilizing the most efficient means of killing possible. If they weren't using the most efficient, they'd either:
1. Fizzle more often.
2. Have to delay a turn to up their chances.
Both of which are good. You even admitted as much yourself in your previous post.
I would personally just slide in a Storm Entity, a couple bolts, and some more countermagic and win by clearing a path with burn and bashing you to death. Or go a more combo-control route with a million burn spells.
combo-control = slower. "clearing a path with burn and bashing you to death" = slower. Everything you have said points to the deck being slower. There is no way to make a more(or equally) efficient version of storm. Which is why we see the EXACT SAME storm despite it constantly running into cards like Cannonist or Leyline. If any other variant on the deck was even close to as strong, we would see lots of variation to dodge the hate. But we don't. That's because no other kill condition is anywhere near as good. They are all awful by comparison. This applies to everything Victor said as well. But if you want to take Dragonstorm.dec or StormEntity.dec to a GP and do well with it to prove it has just as much validity as Grapeshot(well, more so according to you since it dodges all the hate), I welcome you to try.
I agree with LegitKarona that a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens doesn't solve the problem of engine-based combo decks being too powerful if they get their fast mana and efficient cantrips back. In fact, a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens means that Storm could turn to Dragonstorm or even friggin' Ignite Memories if they really wanted to. With premier fast mana and hand sculpting, even crappy Storm cards could pose a major threat. Unconditional fast mana in is extremely dangerous in a format that is balanced by having a "Turn 4 rule". Rather than unban Seething Song/RoF/cantrips and ban Storm cards, I suggest an alternative option: print rituals that engine-based combo decks can't abuse. Something like this:
Fixed Seething Song 2R
Instant
Add RRRRR to your mana pool. This mana can't be spent to cast instants or sorceries.
This "fixed" Seething Song would still allow for decks to still make strong plays off the mana this generates similar to what All-in Red decks used to do in previous formats. Since Storm decks are almost entirely instants and sorceries, they couldn't get any use out of this ritual. Not only that, but the instant/sorcery restriction would also prevent this ritual from being chained with itself or with other rituals to create huge gobs of mana and storm count in a single turn.
I would like this to be printed, but I would prefer it if Goblin Electromancer was banned and Seething Song was unbanned (I also want the cantrips unbanned, but that is more for Delver than Storm).
I agree with LegitKarona that a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens doesn't solve the problem of engine-based combo decks being too powerful if they get their fast mana and efficient cantrips back. In fact, a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens means that Storm could turn to Dragonstorm or even friggin' Ignite Memories if they really wanted to. With premier fast mana and hand sculpting, even crappy Storm cards could pose a major threat. Unconditional fast mana in is extremely dangerous in a format that is balanced by having a "Turn 4 rule". Rather than unban Seething Song/RoF/cantrips and ban Storm cards, I suggest an alternative option: print rituals that engine-based combo decks can't abuse. Something like this:
Fixed Seething Song 2R
Instant
Add RRRRR to your mana pool. This mana can't be spent to cast instants or sorceries.
This "fixed" Seething Song would still allow for decks to still make strong plays off the mana this generates similar to what All-in Red decks used to do in previous formats. Since Storm decks are almost entirely instants and sorceries, they couldn't get any use out of this ritual. Not only that, but the instant/sorcery restriction would also prevent this ritual from being chained with itself or with other rituals to create huge gobs of mana and storm count in a single turn.
They already did kind of print that--it's called Geosurge.
I agree with LegitKarona that a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens doesn't solve the problem of engine-based combo decks being too powerful if they get their fast mana and efficient cantrips back. In fact, a ban on Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens means that Storm could turn to Dragonstorm or even friggin' Ignite Memories if they really wanted to. With premier fast mana and hand sculpting, even crappy Storm cards could pose a major threat. Unconditional fast mana in is extremely dangerous in a format that is balanced by having a "Turn 4 rule". Rather than unban Seething Song/RoF/cantrips and ban Storm cards, I suggest an alternative option: print rituals that engine-based combo decks can't abuse. Something like this:
Fixed Seething Song 2R
Instant
Add RRRRR to your mana pool. This mana can't be spent to cast instants or sorceries.
This "fixed" Seething Song would still allow for decks to still make strong plays off the mana this generates similar to what All-in Red decks used to do in previous formats. Since Storm decks are almost entirely instants and sorceries, they couldn't get any use out of this ritual. Not only that, but the instant/sorcery restriction would also prevent this ritual from being chained with itself or with other rituals to create huge gobs of mana and storm count in a single turn.
They already did kind of print that--it's called Geosurge.
It costing 4 mana makes it unusable by most decks and other decks that might use it, such as Possibility Storm, can't because the mana can't be used to cast enchantments.
Empty the warrens at least uses an attack step to kill, which gives more room to interact and find answers, even if it isn't necessarily any slower on its nut draw. Plus even if you manage to Empty the Warrens early, you'll need to give them a way to gain haste (e.g. goblin Bushwacker) or open yourself up to another turn for you opponent to find an answer, and that's usually the difference between a Turn 3 and Turn 4 kill. Fog, Echhoing Truth, Supreme Verdict, Drown in Sorrow, Bile Blight, Ghostly Prison, etc - lots of stuff would would be applicable - as well as the counterspells and discard that already would have slowed Storm's engine if it didn't use combat.
Storm is probably fine right now for speed, and would probably still be ok with Seething Song or more cantrips back, especially with a potentially policing deck like Faeries in the mix. Its not some unbeatable monster...just fast for decks that aren't prepared for it. It has plenty of weaknesses to exploit, and it could still be further hindered by forcing it to use a less efficient stormer than Grapeshot. And you could probably kill one of its engine drivers (Past in Flames, Ascension or Electromancer) to make it less resilient and more susceptible to hate without killing the deck.
Travis Woo weighs in on the bans in his newest article. You can check out the full article in that link, but here's the relevant quote for this discussion:
So we have Storm. Storm is unfun to play against and it's unfun to watch. It needs to go. There isn't a problem with the deck being too good, because it isn't. There's a problem with the deck existing. Instead of nerfing it down with banning cards like Seething Song, I think Wizards should just ban the actual storm cards. Without Empty the Warrens and Grapeshot, there is no ponderous, slow, non-interactive storm counting deck that loses players and viewers.
Viewing experience is a real thing that goes hand-in-hand with playing experience. The experience should be good. Good means interactive and comprehensible, and Storm is neither. It's a relic of the past and I'd bet its days are numbered.
Before discussing Storm, Woo compared the deck to Eggs, explaining that Eggs got banned because it made for "miserable tournament experiences" and that Storm was in a similar category.
It's late and I don't want to be on too long discussing all of the glaring issues with this comparison, or Woo's argument generally. The big one for me is that Eggs didn't eat a ban because it was unfun to watch or play against. It got banned because it broke tournament structures by making rounds go to time. Storm, to my knowledge, doesn't do that at all. Sure, it takes a little bit to go off, but no more than it takes a UWR Control mirror matchup to finish a round. So on that metric alone, Storm really can't be compared to Eggs.
The worst part of Woo's explanation, however, is the suggestion that decks should be banned because they aren't fun to watch. That's really dangerous territory and I seriously hop that Wizards doesn't go in that direction. If that starts to happen, bans become almost literally a popularity contest; I am generally not a fan of the whole "slippery slope" argument, but this is a classic example. Ban storm because it's unfun to watch and now every deck is at the mercy of the crowd. That's a nightmare for any format, let alone Modern where a deck is supposed to enjoy longevity (you know; the whole "nonrotating" thing).
I'm not quite willing to accuse Woo of making this argument for the sake of sensationalism/page views/etc. But I am more than willing to say that the argument is not well thought out and should absolutely be challenged by Modern players. Might Storm need a ban for power reasons? We can talk about that (Woo thinks it doesn't). Does it need a ban because it's unfun and not enjoyable to watch? That's the worst possible direction that the banlist could realistically head.
god I hope they don't ban decks becuase they aren't fun to watch--you might accidentally get someone like me who doesn't like the 'look' of three color decks managing the ban list...
Travis Woo weighs in on the bans in his newest article. You can check out the full article in that link, but here's the relevant quote for this discussion:
So we have Storm. Storm is unfun to play against and it's unfun to watch. It needs to go. There isn't a problem with the deck being too good, because it isn't. There's a problem with the deck existing. Instead of nerfing it down with banning cards like Seething Song, I think Wizards should just ban the actual storm cards. Without Empty the Warrens and Grapeshot, there is no ponderous, slow, non-interactive storm counting deck that loses players and viewers.
Viewing experience is a real thing that goes hand-in-hand with playing experience. The experience should be good. Good means interactive and comprehensible, and Storm is neither. It's a relic of the past and I'd bet its days are numbered.
Before discussing Storm, Woo compared the deck to Eggs, explaining that Eggs got banned because it made for "miserable tournament experiences" and that Storm was in a similar category.
It's late and I don't want to be on too long discussing all of the glaring issues with this comparison, or Woo's argument generally. The big one for me is that Eggs didn't eat a ban because it was unfun to watch or play against. It got banned because it broke tournament structures by making rounds go to time. Storm, to my knowledge, doesn't do that at all. Sure, it takes a little bit to go off, but no more than it takes a UWR Control mirror matchup to finish a round. So on that metric alone, Storm really can't be compared to Eggs.
The worst part of Woo's explanation, however, is the suggestion that decks should be banned because they aren't fun to watch. That's really dangerous territory and I seriously hop that Wizards doesn't go in that direction. If that starts to happen, bans become almost literally a popularity contest; I am generally not a fan of the whole "slippery slope" argument, but this is a classic example. Ban storm because it's unfun to watch and now every deck is at the mercy of the crowd. That's a nightmare for any format, let alone Modern where a deck is supposed to enjoy longevity (you know; the whole "nonrotating" thing).
I'm not quite willing to accuse Woo of making this argument for the sake of sensationalism/page views/etc. But I am more than willing to say that the argument is not well thought out and should absolutely be challenged by Modern players. Might Storm need a ban for power reasons? We can talk about that (Woo thinks it doesn't). Does it need a ban because it's unfun and not enjoyable to watch? That's the worst possible direction that the banlist could realistically head.
If I had a Facebook account, I would tell Travis Woo that Griselbrand Reanimator is boring to watch when it just wins on turn 2 and that Living End should be banned because watching players cycle cards for several turns isn't a good viewing experience. I wonder how he'd react to his own brews being attacked.
Edit: Can someone who has a Facebook account please post this for me in the comments section of Woo's article?
So, decks should be banned because they are boring to watch? How does that make any sense? Your argument that Eggs was banned because it was boring to watch is simply false. It was banned because it made tournaments unable to function because it made them last too long. I personally think that Living End is a boring deck to watch because it just spends the first few turns cycling. Same goes for Griselbrand Reanimator because when it sometimes wins on turn 2 or 3 it is just over too quickly. Does that mean that they should be banned? The banned list should be used for 3 things in Modern. Preventing decks from dominating, stopping decks from breaking the turn 4 rule, and stopping cards from making making tournament logistics impossible. While as an All-In Red player I would be fine with banning the Storm cards and unbanning the rituals and cantrips, please give a better reason than "I don't like watching this deck, so it should be banned."
This format could do with some risky unbannings. I'm going to go on the record saying that I think Jace the Mind Sculptor is safe to allow back in the format for three months, to see what it does. I think it's poorly positioned in the current meta and would be underwhelming overall but high impact in some matchups. If it warps the format slightly, leave it unbanned, if it totally warps it, kill it off again. But there are a lot of cards that are very, very well positioned against JtMS in the format that are playable or at least fringe playable, like Falkenrath Aristocrat, Restoration Angel, Geist of Saint Traft, and many others.
Card availability isn't really that much of an issue - I'm sure there's more JtMS in circulation than there are Bitterblossoms.
Also, of course, unban Bloodbraid Elf. It was never the problem, DRS always was. And if JtMS is too good, well, Bloodbraid kept JtMS in check in Alara/Zendikar standard.
Nothing strikes me as warranting banning for power level reasons at the moment. The most powerful cards in the format are probably Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Birthing Pod and Blood Moon, and none of them are at oppressive levels.
Travis Woo weighs in on the bans in his newest article. You can check out the full article in that link, but here's the relevant quote for this discussion:
So we have Storm. Storm is unfun to play against and it's unfun to watch. It needs to go. There isn't a problem with the deck being too good, because it isn't. There's a problem with the deck existing. Instead of nerfing it down with banning cards like Seething Song, I think Wizards should just ban the actual storm cards. Without Empty the Warrens and Grapeshot, there is no ponderous, slow, non-interactive storm counting deck that loses players and viewers.
Viewing experience is a real thing that goes hand-in-hand with playing experience. The experience should be good. Good means interactive and comprehensible, and Storm is neither. It's a relic of the past and I'd bet its days are numbered.
Before discussing Storm, Woo compared the deck to Eggs, explaining that Eggs got banned because it made for "miserable tournament experiences" and that Storm was in a similar category.
It's late and I don't want to be on too long discussing all of the glaring issues with this comparison, or Woo's argument generally. The big one for me is that Eggs didn't eat a ban because it was unfun to watch or play against. It got banned because it broke tournament structures by making rounds go to time. Storm, to my knowledge, doesn't do that at all. Sure, it takes a little bit to go off, but no more than it takes a UWR Control mirror matchup to finish a round. So on that metric alone, Storm really can't be compared to Eggs.
The worst part of Woo's explanation, however, is the suggestion that decks should be banned because they aren't fun to watch. That's really dangerous territory and I seriously hop that Wizards doesn't go in that direction. If that starts to happen, bans become almost literally a popularity contest; I am generally not a fan of the whole "slippery slope" argument, but this is a classic example. Ban storm because it's unfun to watch and now every deck is at the mercy of the crowd. That's a nightmare for any format, let alone Modern where a deck is supposed to enjoy longevity (you know; the whole "nonrotating" thing).
I'm not quite willing to accuse Woo of making this argument for the sake of sensationalism/page views/etc. But I am more than willing to say that the argument is not well thought out and should absolutely be challenged by Modern players. Might Storm need a ban for power reasons? We can talk about that (Woo thinks it doesn't). Does it need a ban because it's unfun and not enjoyable to watch? That's the worst possible direction that the banlist could realistically head.
The pot calling the kettle "black?" This is just ridiculous. The Storm players that I've seen (even "new to storm" type players) have not taken any excessive time playing it. I don't know about MTGO because I've never played it, so I can't comment there. Storm and Eggs is not even close to comparable in time taken. Occasionally, Storm can take longer than Eggs did, but the average time taken is MUCH less.
Ban it because it's unfun? Many people think Woo's brews are unfun. Even at my LGS, there are a lot of players who just HATE his decks. I personally like most of them and think that they are fun, but for the opponent, this is not usually true. I played Blue Moon last Modern FNM and I'm pretty sure that 2 Mono White players who played me thought that my Anger of the Gods, burn + Snapcaster was unfun. Did I really care? It was at least fun for me to Prison out a Zoo player before bouncing his creatures to his hand. For what it's worth, I will actually be playing Storm at my next Modern FNM (if I don't get Protean Hulk in ready yet).
Someone at my LGS playing Pod was making a comment about his opponent's deck being annoying. Isn't that what Modern is about? Every deck is annoying. Tron is annoying, UWR is annoying, Living End is annoying, Storm is annoying, Eggs was annoying, Pod is annoying, Twin is annoying, Woo's brews are annoying. Nobody likes losing to these decks. Deathrite Shaman stops a lot of this annoyance, but brings the annoyance of Rock decks with 4 Tectonic Edge. Please someone tell me what deck is NOT annoying to lose to? (and don't tell me "Tribal Minotaurs" or something like that)
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
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Agreed. Why are we trying to take a swipe at storm? It's been hit enough.
I am in my 50s and have been playing games of all sort through my life. I disagree with what you say. You simply feel games handled in a way you deem wrong dont work to your liking. Which is fine, we all have different likes and what not.
Like I have said, its fine we agree to disagree. I dont agree with your thinking, no matter what you call me.
I am glad you have admitted you want a control dominated format. Modern storm was too quick and too consistent according to Wotc. The cantrips give too much consistency. If those cantrips would help control now, why were they not helping control before they were banned? Because the combo was too fast and too consistent for control to stop, hence the bans.
..and at the same time narrow the build from many GBx decks to a single GBR deck.
Plenty of people have made arguments against those cards, Wotc included, yet you seem to have it in your head of a certain out come and nothing anyone can tell you will change that.
I will give you Kut, and I have said as much multiple times, but it is way too soon to say anything about kitty or BB.
Good to know that everyone that disagrees with your ideas and opinions of the format is a troll.
I did admit to the Valakut talk as a mistake. Goes to show how much you are paying attention.
Already saw 4 new posts from Renasce and Valanarch. Too much to respond to. There is no convincing you guys that your vision on the format is very very different than that of WotC from what we can read from their statements. Until you accept what WotC wants with the format, you'll probably will always be unsatisfied with it. Not that I'm always happy with the format. I hated it when DRS was around and stopped playing it. WotC fixed that, awesome.
I personally would stop playing if preordain and Ponder would come off. I've played Modern during the time they were legal and it was pretty boring, annoying and frustrating for non-blue decks.
Bolded is exactly the point. They are the ideal. That's the problem. Draw is fine. But the 'ideal' draw spell(Ancestral Recall) is overpowered. There's a reason we don't see any Ritual+Banefire decks. Because they are worse. They are weak. They are bad by comparison to storm. They are significantly less consistent. They are easily fizzled. And they rarely even work when goldfishing. At their best they are way slower than grapeshot, even when you add in P+P and RoF, fact.
And if you don't understand why the kill spell(s...the fact that it's so redundant means it can't even be countered is a big sticking point) is the most important thing, I don't know what to say. You proved yourself in the quoted post WHY the kill spell is the most important, because there's so many ways to build up mana that you can't remove them all. But none of those decks are run because Grapeshot is objectively the best, and nothing else comes close. R+D said Storm will never be printed again because it was a mistake and they wish it could be deleted. But rituals have been a magic staple ever since Alpha, and will continue to exist for the infinite future. So either we ban the cheating card(SFM/Grapeshot), or we ban the fair card(Batterskull/SeethingSong) and have R+D forever unable to print anything that's even remotely playable among that type of cards(equipment/Rituals).
Rituals are not 'abused' by any other cards. They are used by them, there's a difference. What's the difference? Grapeshot is USELESS without rituals. That makes it the abuser, and it the problem. Objectively. Where as any number of combo decks can use mana accel. Any number of Timmy decks can use mana accel. But none of them are going to break the turn4 rule like storm does. None of them are going to be omnipresent and uncounterable like storm is. They would all be fair, balanced, and fun.
Which brings us back to BBE. People arguing that "blah blah blah format diversity"(which I don't agree with in the slightest) should be overjoyed by the prospect of Grapeshot being banned. Because it is objectively the best finisher for a ritual deck. What does that mean? That means that if storm survives, it will be split into subsets of Dragonstorm, Banefire, Emrakul(I have my doubts), "Bolt"(are you drunk?), etc. Which according to you is what we want.
Oh, I'm fully aware that he's a troll. Anyone who has read even a single one of his posts can see that it's blatantly obvious he ignores everything that's said to him, makes things up, puts words in peoples mouths so he has something to disagree with, etc. But I continue to debate 'with' him because, "I'm after them"(which would be all the other people in here silently watching the debate unfold). Eventually they see that I'm responding to things and making valid arguments, while he continues to ignore facts and repeat the same things that have already been proven false.
And clearly, we are nowhere near reaching that objective truth.
I think we should do something about that.
Like focusing on how Storm really doesn't work with mana sink spells because Storm isn't High Tide.
- WotC says Storm was a mistake, they don't like it and wish it could be deleted
- Banning Warrens and Grape + unbanning rituals means 1 storm deck gone, but dragonstorm returns
What have we won? Nada. WotC obviously wants storm to be a viable tactic otherwise they would have banned the win cons. By unbanning the rituals they automatically should also ban Dragonstorm. Because it probably would make it a better deck than what storm is now. Also, lets set storm aside for a second. With the current card pool, would the banned rituals be abused in another way? Maybe not now, I don't know, but maybe with future sets coming, they could 'break' a deck yet again... I think banning the rituals was the best choice.
You keep bringing this up, but the fact you admitted you were wrong on that doesn't mean anything. What was the alternative, to continue claiming that midrange was gone when Jund was the dominant deck? Admitting you were wrong about it doesn't mean anything at all, because what's the alternative?
Let's accept for a moment the premise that Storm is overpowered and should have cards from it banned for the good of Modern. If that is the case, it's obvious the best card to ban is the most broken, abusive one(s), the ones that make Storm Banworthy. Breaking down the storm deck into its individual components, it essentially plays 5 types of cards:
Lands, which we clearly aren't banning.
Mana acceleration, in this case rituals such as Desperate Ritual.
Dig spells/cantrips/tutors, to get more rituals and to find the engine pieces, in this case cards like Serum Visions.
The engine cards, which generate mana, cards, and storm, making the deck actually work, in this case cards like Pyromancer Ascension.
And the kill card, which turns the mana, cards, and storm into a win, in this case cards like Grapeshot.
What's the notable thing here? The critical part of the deck is NOT the kill card. In fact, in storm decks outside of Modern, players rarely play more than 2 cards with the storm keyword in the combo deck. The critical part, the thing that makes storm storm, is the engine. That's why it's an engine based combo. Of course there are some kills that are more efficient than others, but at the end of the day that doesn't matter: so long as storm has cards in its deck, and as long as the engine is still going, it can satisfy just about any condition it wants to win. Banefire, the example you keep raising, isn't even the best one after Grapeshot and Empty. I would personally just slide in a Storm Entity, a couple bolts, and some more countermagic and win by clearing a path with burn and bashing you to death. Or go a more combo-control route with a million burn spells. If you want to make Modern Storm look different, sure, by all means ban the kill conditions. But that won't make the combo engine any weaker, and the deck will still exist, pretty much just as strong as it was before. If you want to actually improve diversity by banning a card from the storm deck (or replacing banned storm cards with other ones), go for the engines, the enablers that make the combo work. Don't ban Illusions of Grandeur, ban Necropotence.
Also, while I don't advocate unbanning it right now (I want to see how the format shakes out first), I have nothing against unbanning Bloodbraid Elf at some point. I thought it was the wrong card to ban then, and now that the right card has been banned I'm ok with letting it off. I don't know if that last point was referring to me, but if it was, please don't put words in my mouth.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
So because someone is wrong once, they will never be right again? If that was true, no one would ever be right ... ever..
If anyone thinks I am a troll, ignore me. That way you dont have to listen to the 'others' who have an opinion other then yours.
I know exactly why eggs was banned. It was for clock time issues, not for turn speed issues. Bringing back the mana acceleration and banning the "fast" win cons, will make storm the SAME as eggs.
Because people will need to use slower wincons (that require more clock time to setup).
I can win as consistent with Banefire as i do with Grapeshot. But I would take 30 minutes to gather the mana needed to do so with banefire, while I take 10 to get the storm count for Grapeshot.
With mana acceleration available, people will not take more turns to setup the combo.
The point is that Grapeshot, don't change the turn that the storm engine start, while Seething song do change the turn that you can go off more safely.
People fool themselves if they belive that banning grapeshot and empty will do any good for the format. It will just make storm an annoying deck that can still score 3 turn kills but takes 30 minutes for that because it needs to build up mana for a lethal and uncounterable Banefire.
The kill card decide the CLOCK time that it takes to kill.
The mana accelleration decide de TURN time that it takes to go off.
The issue with storm is the TURN time, so messing with the kill cards is pointless, because it have little impact on the TURN speed.
We will have 'won' a lot. We will have a wider array of decks, all of which are viable in different ways and none of which break the turn4 rule. The second part is the big issue. Because currently storm(according to Wizards) is already in danger of violating that rule right now(needs more data to see). And every card they ever print that adds any amount of consistency or speed in red or blue has to potential to break storm again. This means R+D can never print a good blue or red spell ever again. Dragonstorm would be objectively worse than grapeshot storm(which is why no decks right now run it). It causes 4+ more slots to be taken up by a secondary card(Hellkites), means there's no instant-win if any of them get countered, causes consistency issues if you draw any of those kites, etc. Non-grapeshot/EtW storm would be viable. But it would never ever again be in danger of breaking the turn4 rule.
Let's just say for the sake of argument that you're right. And with Grapeshot/EtW gone, we get a version replaced with Storm Entity and Bolts. Why is this bad? We WANT storm to be viable. The key difference between that 'storm' and current storm is that that one would be slower(what Wizards wants), have more interplay and counterplay(what Wizards wants), and would never ever ever ever no matter what non-storm cards are ever printed be able to violate the turn4 rule(what Wizards wants). These are all good things. Yes, killing the engine would KILL THE DECK. But Wizards doesn't want to kill the deck. So again, you've proven why getting rid of Grapeshot(and possibly EtW) is the proper play.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
First, I don't want a control-dominated format. I want an equal balance of the 3 major archetypes in MTG (Control, Combo, and Aggro). And I would agree with you about the cantrips if it wasn't for one thing. Because of the bans, Combo is much slower now than it was back then. Control can beat creature-based turn 4 consistent combo decks.
Is that worse than having 3 tier 1.5-3 variations on BGx? Junk and Rock don't see much play now anyways. Banning DRS killed Ajundi and BUG was never a thing to begin with. All that BBE would do is kill 2 tier 3 decks while making Jund tier 1, which I don't think would be that horrible of a trade.
You have previously said that Preordain shouldn't have been banned. Also, the WotC arguments are horrible for many of those cards. Ponder and Preordain were banned for making combo decks too consistent, and then two of the best combo decks were banned. AV was banned for being played in JtMS control decks in Legacy and then JtMS was banned. Sword of the Meek was banned based off of a shown list that also included Chrome Mox, Jace, and Dark Depths. BBE was banned because it made Jund too strong and then DRS was banned, even though DRS was the problem card and should have been banned first. And while I can concede that it is reasonable to be concerned about Ponder, Chrome Mox, Bloodbraid Elf, and Sword of the Meek, I have not yet heard a good argument for why Ancestral Vision should stay banned.[/quote]
Wizards has also said that they want decks from Standard's past to be playable in Modern, so Dragonstorm would be preferable to them over normal Storm (especially since it is worse than UR Storm because it needs to spend 4 spots in its deck on Bogardan Hellkites that are useless if naturally drawn). Also, we would gain a lot from that. Enduring Ideal would become a playable deck. Hive Mind would become a playable deck. Dragonstorm would become a playable deck. All-In Red would become a playable deck. And that is just off of the top of my head without thinking much.
This is why I wish that Goblin Electromancer had been banned instead of Seething Song.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Fixed Seething Song 2R
Instant
Add RRRRR to your mana pool. This mana can't be spent to cast instants or sorceries.
This "fixed" Seething Song would still allow for decks to still make strong plays off the mana this generates similar to what All-in Red decks used to do in previous formats. Since Storm decks are almost entirely instants and sorceries, they couldn't get any use out of this ritual. Not only that, but the instant/sorcery restriction would also prevent this ritual from being chained with itself or with other rituals to create huge gobs of mana and storm count in a single turn.
I can see the appeal in that. Though the fact that he's flat out insulted by this is just hilarious.
OT: Seriously why are we still talking about storm at all? It's fine. Nothing right now is screaming for a ban. Give the format time to adjust. If things haven't changed in 3-6 months then start freaking out.
Try. Just try. Go ahead. I can wait. I know because I've tried. And you can't. You CAN'T "consistently" generate 21 mana on turn 3. You CAN however "consistently" cast 9 spells, easily. You for some reason have this false assumption that when PA is played, the pilot instantly has 1000 mana and draws 100 cards. This couldn't be further from the truth. The vast majority of the time, even when a storm player takes a 20 minute turn, they rarely pass a dozen mana in the pool at any given time. That is the cold hard truth. But you can see that in any of Finkel's(or anyone elses) games. Storm fizzles...a lot. And when it doesn't fizzle, it BARELY gets there utilizing the most efficient means of killing possible. If they weren't using the most efficient, they'd either:
1. Fizzle more often.
2. Have to delay a turn to up their chances.
Both of which are good. You even admitted as much yourself in your previous post.
combo-control = slower. "clearing a path with burn and bashing you to death" = slower. Everything you have said points to the deck being slower. There is no way to make a more(or equally) efficient version of storm. Which is why we see the EXACT SAME storm despite it constantly running into cards like Cannonist or Leyline. If any other variant on the deck was even close to as strong, we would see lots of variation to dodge the hate. But we don't. That's because no other kill condition is anywhere near as good. They are all awful by comparison. This applies to everything Victor said as well. But if you want to take Dragonstorm.dec or StormEntity.dec to a GP and do well with it to prove it has just as much validity as Grapeshot(well, more so according to you since it dodges all the hate), I welcome you to try.
I would like this to be printed, but I would prefer it if Goblin Electromancer was banned and Seething Song was unbanned (I also want the cantrips unbanned, but that is more for Delver than Storm).
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
They already did kind of print that--it's called Geosurge.
It costing 4 mana makes it unusable by most decks and other decks that might use it, such as Possibility Storm, can't because the mana can't be used to cast enchantments.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Storm is probably fine right now for speed, and would probably still be ok with Seething Song or more cantrips back, especially with a potentially policing deck like Faeries in the mix. Its not some unbeatable monster...just fast for decks that aren't prepared for it. It has plenty of weaknesses to exploit, and it could still be further hindered by forcing it to use a less efficient stormer than Grapeshot. And you could probably kill one of its engine drivers (Past in Flames, Ascension or Electromancer) to make it less resilient and more susceptible to hate without killing the deck.
Speculate less. Test more.
Before discussing Storm, Woo compared the deck to Eggs, explaining that Eggs got banned because it made for "miserable tournament experiences" and that Storm was in a similar category.
It's late and I don't want to be on too long discussing all of the glaring issues with this comparison, or Woo's argument generally. The big one for me is that Eggs didn't eat a ban because it was unfun to watch or play against. It got banned because it broke tournament structures by making rounds go to time. Storm, to my knowledge, doesn't do that at all. Sure, it takes a little bit to go off, but no more than it takes a UWR Control mirror matchup to finish a round. So on that metric alone, Storm really can't be compared to Eggs.
The worst part of Woo's explanation, however, is the suggestion that decks should be banned because they aren't fun to watch. That's really dangerous territory and I seriously hop that Wizards doesn't go in that direction. If that starts to happen, bans become almost literally a popularity contest; I am generally not a fan of the whole "slippery slope" argument, but this is a classic example. Ban storm because it's unfun to watch and now every deck is at the mercy of the crowd. That's a nightmare for any format, let alone Modern where a deck is supposed to enjoy longevity (you know; the whole "nonrotating" thing).
I'm not quite willing to accuse Woo of making this argument for the sake of sensationalism/page views/etc. But I am more than willing to say that the argument is not well thought out and should absolutely be challenged by Modern players. Might Storm need a ban for power reasons? We can talk about that (Woo thinks it doesn't). Does it need a ban because it's unfun and not enjoyable to watch? That's the worst possible direction that the banlist could realistically head.
If I had a Facebook account, I would tell Travis Woo that Griselbrand Reanimator is boring to watch when it just wins on turn 2 and that Living End should be banned because watching players cycle cards for several turns isn't a good viewing experience. I wonder how he'd react to his own brews being attacked.
Edit: Can someone who has a Facebook account please post this for me in the comments section of Woo's article?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
This format could do with some risky unbannings. I'm going to go on the record saying that I think Jace the Mind Sculptor is safe to allow back in the format for three months, to see what it does. I think it's poorly positioned in the current meta and would be underwhelming overall but high impact in some matchups. If it warps the format slightly, leave it unbanned, if it totally warps it, kill it off again. But there are a lot of cards that are very, very well positioned against JtMS in the format that are playable or at least fringe playable, like Falkenrath Aristocrat, Restoration Angel, Geist of Saint Traft, and many others.
Card availability isn't really that much of an issue - I'm sure there's more JtMS in circulation than there are Bitterblossoms.
Also, of course, unban Bloodbraid Elf. It was never the problem, DRS always was. And if JtMS is too good, well, Bloodbraid kept JtMS in check in Alara/Zendikar standard.
Nothing strikes me as warranting banning for power level reasons at the moment. The most powerful cards in the format are probably Lightning Bolt, Snapcaster Mage, Birthing Pod and Blood Moon, and none of them are at oppressive levels.
The pot calling the kettle "black?" This is just ridiculous. The Storm players that I've seen (even "new to storm" type players) have not taken any excessive time playing it. I don't know about MTGO because I've never played it, so I can't comment there. Storm and Eggs is not even close to comparable in time taken. Occasionally, Storm can take longer than Eggs did, but the average time taken is MUCH less.
Ban it because it's unfun? Many people think Woo's brews are unfun. Even at my LGS, there are a lot of players who just HATE his decks. I personally like most of them and think that they are fun, but for the opponent, this is not usually true. I played Blue Moon last Modern FNM and I'm pretty sure that 2 Mono White players who played me thought that my Anger of the Gods, burn + Snapcaster was unfun. Did I really care? It was at least fun for me to Prison out a Zoo player before bouncing his creatures to his hand. For what it's worth, I will actually be playing Storm at my next Modern FNM (if I don't get Protean Hulk in ready yet).
Someone at my LGS playing Pod was making a comment about his opponent's deck being annoying. Isn't that what Modern is about? Every deck is annoying. Tron is annoying, UWR is annoying, Living End is annoying, Storm is annoying, Eggs was annoying, Pod is annoying, Twin is annoying, Woo's brews are annoying. Nobody likes losing to these decks. Deathrite Shaman stops a lot of this annoyance, but brings the annoyance of Rock decks with 4 Tectonic Edge. Please someone tell me what deck is NOT annoying to lose to? (and don't tell me "Tribal Minotaurs" or something like that)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)