It lost, but back then the format was ruined. 12-post set the upper limit on how slow your deck can be (t4-5), then everyone else tried to run the fastest decks possible to avoid it.
Patrick Chapin wrote a fairly long article for today in which he reflects on Modern and discusses some Modern ban options. There's a lot in the article (you have to be SCG Premium to read it), but there are a few quotes that are relevant to our banning discussion. In summary, Pat Chapin thinks Storm needs yet another ban:
In the meantime, it is my assessment that Manamorphose should be banned in Modern. Storm was the best performing archetype at the Pro Tour, and the archetype is highly undesirable. One could argue that the quality of players playing Storm was on average higher, but top pros did not generally average much better than the mean at this event.
...
Banning Manamorphose would greatly reduce the number of turn 3 kills, increase Storm's reliance on the graveyard (making it easier to interact with), and generally decrease its power level (hopefully enough to knock it down to tier 2). Pyromancer Ascension and Past in Flames are extremely powerful cards that are likely to continue to provide a backbone to some kind of combo deck, but given how fast the deck is, how difficult it is to interact with, and how unfun the deck is, it should not be the most dominate deck in the format.
Yes, there's some more context to these quotes than I am giving (I don't want to post too much of the article so I am only quoting the most succinct pieces of it). But that's really the gist of Chapin's stance on Modern bannings now.
I'm not going to dive too deep into his idea. I tend to like Chapin as a writer and player, but to be honest, I really hate his suggestions for Modern. He's had some really bad ones before and I get the sense he does it for press/views more than anything else. This is a particularly egregious example of it. Even analyzing the quote on its own merits independent of its writer, the banning of Manamorphose seems like a terrible idea for the format. Not only is it way, way, way too early to call for a ban on anything, but it perpetuates this ridiculous "ban first, ask questions later" mentality that has become synonymous with Modern. He even says so himself in the article - With less black discard around, combo decks get powerful. So instead of crying for a ban, why not let the metagame shift back towards black midrange or control?
This format is quickly becoming the ban format and although it's overall popular, that banning precedent is a bad one for the future. Ultimately, I just wish people (pros included, apparently) would wait for metagame shifts, new cards, and new tech/decks before calling for something so final and public as a ban. On this forum, people do that because they either aren't thinking critically or because they want to be sensational. I imagine it's the same for major writers like Chapin and, in the end, that's not a direction that is healthy for our format.
Patrick Chapin wrote a fairly long article for today in which he reflects on Modern and discusses some Modern ban options. There's a lot in the article (you have to be SCG Premium to read it), but there are a few quotes that are relevant to our banning discussion. In summary, Pat Chapin thinks Storm needs yet another ban:
In the meantime, it is my assessment that Manamorphose should be banned in Modern. Storm was the best performing archetype at the Pro Tour, and the archetype is highly undesirable. One could argue that the quality of players playing Storm was on average higher, but top pros did not generally average much better than the mean at this event.
...
Banning Manamorphose would greatly reduce the number of turn 3 kills, increase Storm's reliance on the graveyard (making it easier to interact with), and generally decrease its power level (hopefully enough to knock it down to tier 2). Pyromancer Ascension and Past in Flames are extremely powerful cards that are likely to continue to provide a backbone to some kind of combo deck, but given how fast the deck is, how difficult it is to interact with, and how unfun the deck is, it should not be the most dominate deck in the format.
Yes, there's some more context to these quotes than I am giving (I don't want to post too much of the article so I am only quoting the most succinct pieces of it). But that's really the gist of Chapin's stance on Modern bannings now.
I'm not going to dive too deep into his idea. I tend to like Chapin as a writer and player, but to be honest, I really hate his suggestions for Modern. He's had some really bad ones before and I get the sense he does it for press/views more than anything else. This is a particularly egregious example of it. Even analyzing the quote on its own merits independent of its writer, the banning of Manamorphose seems like a terrible idea for the format. Not only is it way, way, way too early to call for a ban on anything, but it perpetuates this ridiculous "ban first, ask questions later" mentality that has become synonymous with Modern. He even says so himself in the article - With less black discard around, combo decks get powerful. So instead of crying for a ban, why not let the metagame shift back towards black midrange or control?
This format is quickly becoming the ban format and although it's overall popular, that banning precedent is a bad one for the future. Ultimately, I just wish people (pros included, apparently) would wait for metagame shifts, new cards, and new tech/decks before calling for something so final and public as a ban. On this forum, people do that because they either aren't thinking critically or because they want to be sensational. I imagine it's the same for major writers like Chapin and, in the end, that's not a direction that is healthy for our format.
Could you please elaborate on why he thinks storm deserves another ban? Just because it performed well in the hands of a few of the best players in the world when no one was expected it to be viable? Or does he cite some on-camera turn 3 wins or something? Faeries did just as well day 2 but I don't see anyone worried about that yet...and in fact Faeries should be an excellent choice if you expect storm to be popular.
I have to say it seems crazy to keep banning rituals. At this point if storm deserves another ban (and I don't think I it does) it makes much more sense to hit pyromancers Ascension, Past in Flames, or Grapeshot instead of rituals and/or cantrips. It's been said that insanity is doing the same things over and over again but expecting different results. So WotC would be nuts to try to hinder Storm by continuing to go after the rituals and can trips instead of he enabler (ascension, past in flames) or undercosted and likely broken Storm finishers (Grapeshot, etc).
Ugh. We're back on ban storm? Really? The deck has suffered more bans than any other existing archetype in the format. There is barely anything left of it. Storm did well because it's not a creature based combo and every one was preparing for Zoo, giving it the edge at the pro tour. Also, Budde and Finkel are just amazing players. In a format peppered with Anger of the Gods, and the other combo decks moving out of pure combo and into midrange control shells like Twin and Pod have done, it's really no wonder that they last real combo deck in Modern had an edge. It's the same reason Ad Nauseam did well. It doesn't interact with Pod, Twin, or UWR - the best decks of the pro tour. Enough with banning storm. It was a meta call piloted by people better at magic than 98% of the remaining player base.
When Chapin actually plays Modern and doesn't lose out 3-5 and takes the time to invest and learn the format then he can speak. Until then though...
THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
I think tempo decks like Delver (and possibly Faeries, if the meta will allow it) are good enough to keep Storm in check, not to mention absurdly powerful hate cards like Rest in Peace. It also might be Thalia's time to shine in Modern. A lot of these UR combo shells won't be happy to see her on the battlefield, particularly if the two Grapeshot build becomes popular among Storm players. Who knows, in a cantrip-happy meta Spirit of the Labyrinth could be a devastating second turn play. There's a lot of answers to these UR shells, if people are willing to go looking for them.
That's probably because zoo decks run 4 bolt, 4 path, and 4 helix at the least and run on little land so turn 2 thalia would make it impossible to follow up with a turn 3 2-drop + bolt/path. In addition, Thalia is pretty bad against other zoo decks, pod decks, affinity, etc.
You side a lot of that out against Storm-type decks, though. Not maindecking her is understandable, but I would think she would be helpful coming out of the sideboard.
Patrick Chapin wrote a fairly long article for today in which he reflects on Modern and discusses some Modern ban options. There's a lot in the article (you have to be SCG Premium to read it), but there are a few quotes that are relevant to our banning discussion. In summary, Pat Chapin thinks Storm needs yet another ban:
In the meantime, it is my assessment that Manamorphose should be banned in Modern. Storm was the best performing archetype at the Pro Tour, and the archetype is highly undesirable. One could argue that the quality of players playing Storm was on average higher, but top pros did not generally average much better than the mean at this event.
...
Banning Manamorphose would greatly reduce the number of turn 3 kills, increase Storm's reliance on the graveyard (making it easier to interact with), and generally decrease its power level (hopefully enough to knock it down to tier 2). Pyromancer Ascension and Past in Flames are extremely powerful cards that are likely to continue to provide a backbone to some kind of combo deck, but given how fast the deck is, how difficult it is to interact with, and how unfun the deck is, it should not be the most dominate deck in the format.
Yes, there's some more context to these quotes than I am giving (I don't want to post too much of the article so I am only quoting the most succinct pieces of it). But that's really the gist of Chapin's stance on Modern bannings now.
I'm not going to dive too deep into his idea. I tend to like Chapin as a writer and player, but to be honest, I really hate his suggestions for Modern. He's had some really bad ones before and I get the sense he does it for press/views more than anything else. This is a particularly egregious example of it. Even analyzing the quote on its own merits independent of its writer, the banning of Manamorphose seems like a terrible idea for the format. Not only is it way, way, way too early to call for a ban on anything, but it perpetuates this ridiculous "ban first, ask questions later" mentality that has become synonymous with Modern. He even says so himself in the article - With less black discard around, combo decks get powerful. So instead of crying for a ban, why not let the metagame shift back towards black midrange or control?
This format is quickly becoming the ban format and although it's overall popular, that banning precedent is a bad one for the future. Ultimately, I just wish people (pros included, apparently) would wait for metagame shifts, new cards, and new tech/decks before calling for something so final and public as a ban. On this forum, people do that because they either aren't thinking critically or because they want to be sensational. I imagine it's the same for major writers like Chapin and, in the end, that's not a direction that is healthy for our format.
"i cant believe" that chapin said something like that, seems like he is upset because he couldnt beat storm
I seriously find it difficult to believe that people are still looking to ban Storm cards. Don't you folks think we can stand for a couple more unbans? Honestly, this past Pro Tour was pretty diverse, when you get right down to it. It wasn't swarmed by BGx decks, but they did show up. It wasn't drowned in Faeries the way some thought it might be. It wasn't dominated by blue control decks(I know a RWU deck won, but it's not like the top 8 was loaded with control). It wasn't buried under combo decks, of which there were plenty. And, it wasn't smashed open by Zoo. At this moment, I can't put my finger on anything inherently wrong with Modern. Obviously that could change if something degenerate starts popping up in dailies, but otherwise I think we're at a point where additional additions to the ban list is no longer necessary.
What's more baffling to me is that he thinks Storm deserves a ban more than Splinter Twin does.
I mean, I don't think Splinter Twin does deserve a ban, but if you want to ban something from a combo deck, Splinter Twin is the one with way more of a proven record than Storm.
Maybe he gives some better arguments in the full article, but that still really makes me go "what?"
Unban Sword of the Meek
Unban Deathrite Shaman
Ban Tarmogoyf
OR
Unban Sword of the Meek
Ban Snapcaster Mage
Reasoning: While clearly Jund needed a hit, DRS was the wrong choice. Without DRS providing value to the BGx decks, UWR is oppressive. People thought DRS was too oppressive because it was Grim Lavamancer, Birds of Paradise, and a lifegain/gravehate spell. But it dies to so much, and has summoning sickness, and is vulnerable to grave hate itself! It served as a check on Pod decks (by monkeying with their value) and UWR decks (by providing inevitability and plucking SCM targets).
With Wild Nacatl unbanned, Zoo was in a position to pressure Jund, even with DRS still in the format. Jund damages itself a lot and is subject to being overrun by Zoo. Its removal suite, other than Bolt, is inefficient against Zoo decks: Abrupt Decay, Terminate, Dismember, Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse cost more than the creatures they'd be removing. It was also subject to Tarmogoyf stalls and just being burned out. But now Jund is essentially dead, and even though the BG rock decks are pretty good, they lack the card that really gives them value against UWR and Pod.
Meanwhile, Goyf pushes every 2cmc and some 3cmc creatures out of the format with its pure efficiency. Yes, a turn 2 Liliana is scary. So you have to be ready to kill a 2 toughness creature on turn 1. That doesn't help you when they just plop down a 3/4 or 4/5 instead on turn 2. Now you're getting clocked and you need to be playing, essentially, a Jund deck yourself or a Path deck to beat it. That pushed the format into more BGx decks. Further, with the Nacatl unbanned, you still have to be able to kill a 3 toughness creature on turn 1, which means cheap effective removal is just as needed as it was with DRS in the format.
If Goyf had been banned instead of DRS, Jund's mana curve would've been higher (relevant with Bob and its already large amount of fetching/shocking/Thoughtseizing), making it weaker to aggressive decks, but it still could've fought control and Pod like it had been, preventing those decks from getting out of control.
If DRS must remain banned, then Snapcaster Mage should be banned as well. It is subject to all the same hate that hit DRS that seemingly people are unwilling to play (RIP, Tormod's Crypt effects, etc.), except for removal — it doesn't need to untap to be effective. Look at it this way: It is an instant speed Yawgmoth's Will on a stick. DRS turned your used Bolts and fetches into 2 life drain and a mana? SCM turns your used bolts into bolts! It makes UWR just too good — it makes their graveyard into a wishboard. If DRS and Stoneforge Mystic is the standard for banning a utility creature, SCM fits the bill as well.
Personally, I think both those cards are fair and balanced. Tarmogoyf is a huge mistake, though — as much as a creature that only attacks and blocks can be. (Well, its problem is more that it completely pushes other cards out of the format, sort of like GSZ does).
As for sword of the meek, it is banned because of a combo with Thopter Foundry, itself an artifact with an activation cost. That means it is vulnerable to SB hate people are already running for Pod and Affinity like Ancient Grudge, Stony Silence, Pithing Needle, Wear // Tear, Kataki, etc. There also could be a deck that plays it with Bitterblossom out there that would add to the format instead of just keeping us in this perpetual rotation of Tron, Pod, UWR, and Zoo (where Jund used to be Zoo).
\
Could you please elaborate on why he thinks storm deserves another ban? Just because it performed well in the hands of a few of the best players in the world when no one was expected it to be viable? Or does he cite some on-camera turn 3 wins or something? Faeries did just as well day 2 but I don't see anyone worried about that yet...and in fact Faeries should be an excellent choice if you expect storm to be popular.
I have to say it seems crazy to keep banning rituals. At this point if storm deserves another ban (and I don't think I it does) it makes much more sense to hit pyromancers Ascension, Past in Flames, or Grapeshot instead of rituals and/or cantrips. It's been said that insanity is doing the same things over and over again but expecting different results. So WotC would be nuts to try to hinder Storm by continuing to go after the rituals and can trips instead of he enabler (ascension, past in flames) or undercosted and likely broken Storm finishers (Grapeshot, etc).
He mentions two reasons that Storm should be banned. First, it wins on turn 4 too consistently with too few "points of interaction" for other decks. Twin, an entirely creature-based combo deck, has lots of interaction points. Storm, which is mostly spell-based, has a lot less. As such, Chapin thinks its unfair for the format. Second, Storm is "excruciating to play with, play against, or watch." He thinks it takes too much time, is too uninteractive, and is "outside" the scope of what should be normal Magic.
Personally, I think these are quite possibly the dumbest reasons I have ever heard for a ban in Modern. And that's even comparing his rationale to the rationale we sometimes see on these forums. It is insanely easy to interact with Storm IF you are trying to interact with it. We have these cards called Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek in the format, along with Scooze, Decay, Spell Snare, etc. It turns out that when you prepare your PT deck to beat Zoo, Melira Pod, UWR Midrange/Control, and Twin, you are pretty dang vulnerable to a graveyard based combo deck. It also turns out that there's this thing called a sideboard to reduce that vulnerability. It would be one thing if the deck was consistently winning on turn 3; that would be too fast. But Chapin even admits that it's a turn 4 deck that is just too hard to interact with. Well Pat, it's only hard to interact with it if you aren't trying to interact with it.
As to the second reason about the deck being unfun, I am genuinely shocked that a pro player would suggest this as a valid reason for a ban. The day decks are banned because they are unfun is the day Magic ends. It's one thing if the deck is unfun and it causes logistical problems (e.g. Second Sunrise from Eggs). Or if the deck is unfun/noninteractive and potentially too fast (Dread Return). Or if the deck is unfun because it dominates the metagame (Caw caw caw!) But Storm is a deck that fits all the format's parameters and is only unfun if you build a deck that refuses to interact with it. It's just one piece of the metagame that is fun to some and unfun to others, just as many other decks are fun to some and unfun to others. I don't think there is anything fun about playing against UWR Control or Affinity or Infect, but I don't go around calling for bannings of my personal dislikes.
Again, I really have to believe that Chapin is making these suggestions for pageviews and sensationalism. No one in their right mind should call for bans after one event. Maybe he's just unhappy he did poorly at the event. I don't know.
Unban Sword of the Meek
Unban Deathrite Shaman
Ban Tarmogoyf
OR
Unban Sword of the Meek
Ban Snapcaster Mage
Reasoning: While clearly Jund needed a hit, DRS was the wrong choice. Without DRS providing value to the BGx decks, UWR is oppressive. People thought DRS was too oppressive because it was Grim Lavamancer, Birds of Paradise, and a lifegain/gravehate spell. But it dies to so much, and has summoning sickness, and is vulnerable to grave hate itself! It served as a check on Pod decks (by monkeying with their value) and UWR decks (by providing inevitability and plucking SCM targets).
With Wild Nacatl unbanned, Zoo was in a position to pressure Jund, even with DRS still in the format. Jund damages itself a lot and is subject to being overrun by Zoo. Its removal suite, other than Bolt, is inefficient against Zoo decks: Abrupt Decay, Terminate, Dismember, Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse cost more than the creatures they'd be removing. It was also subject to Tarmogoyf stalls and just being burned out. But now Jund is essentially dead, and even though the BG rock decks are pretty good, they lack the card that really gives them value against UWR and Pod.
Meanwhile, Goyf pushes every 2cmc and some 3cmc creatures out of the format with its pure efficiency. Yes, a turn 2 Liliana is scary. So you have to be ready to kill a 2 toughness creature on turn 1. That doesn't help you when they just plop down a 3/4 or 4/5 instead on turn 2. Now you're getting clocked and you need to be playing, essentially, a Jund deck yourself or a Path deck to beat it. That pushed the format into more BGx decks. Further, with the Nacatl unbanned, you still have to be able to kill a 3 toughness creature on turn 1, which means cheap effective removal is just as needed as it was with DRS in the format.
If Goyf had been banned instead of DRS, Jund's mana curve would've been higher (relevant with Bob and its already large amount of fetching/shocking/Thoughtseizing), making it weaker to aggressive decks, but it still could've fought control and Pod like it had been, preventing those decks from getting out of control.
If DRS must remain banned, then Snapcaster Mage should be banned as well. It is subject to all the same hate that hit DRS that seemingly people are unwilling to play (RIP, Tormod's Crypt effects, etc.), except for removal — it doesn't need to untap to be effective. Look at it this way: It is an instant speed Yawgmoth's Will on a stick. DRS turned your used Bolts and fetches into 2 life drain and a mana? SCM turns your used bolts into bolts! It makes UWR just too good — it makes their graveyard into a wishboard. If DRS and Stoneforge Mystic is the standard for banning a utility creature, SCM fits the bill as well.
Personally, I think both those cards are fair and balanced. Tarmogoyf is a huge mistake, though — as much as a creature that only attacks and blocks can be. (Well, its problem is more that it completely pushes other cards out of the format, sort of like GSZ does).
As for sword of the meek, it is banned because of a combo with Thopter Foundry, itself an artifact with an activation cost. That means it is vulnerable to SB hate people are already running for Pod and Affinity like Ancient Grudge, Stony Silence, Pithing Needle, Wear // Tear, Kataki, etc. There also could be a deck that plays it with Bitterblossom out there that would add to the format instead of just keeping us in this perpetual rotation of Tron, Pod, UWR, and Zoo (where Jund used to be Zoo).
Just my view.
More bannings! One event in and we still have people calling for bannings! At least wait until GP Richmond to start doomsaying about cards that supposedly need to be banned. Comparing Tiago to DRS is particularly egregious because I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that Snappy is reducing format diversity. People claim that it makes UWR too good, and yet there are a ton of other non-blue decks that are viable in this format.
More bannings! One event in and we still have people calling for bannings! At least wait until GP Richmond to start doomsaying about cards that supposedly need to be banned. Comparing Tiago to DRS is particularly egregious because I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that Snappy is reducing format diversity. People claim that it makes UWR too good, and yet there are a ton of other non-blue decks that are viable in this format.
I don't want SCM or DRS banned. But it is picking winners and reducing format diversity to have one banned while the other is legal. The UR shell is now where the BG shell was. There were five decks in the top 8 at the PT playing SCM and Lightning Bolt with some amount of counters in the top 8 of the PT. The breakout "new deck" from the tour was just another SCM/Bolt/counter deck. SCM is the most obvious card to ban from that shell because like SFM it restricts future design space and like DRS it is good whenever it's drawn. Again, if DRS is the standard, SCM fits it.
I agree with you that it is very early. But what is going to change? None of the past 4 expansions have added anything to modern except for a couple narrow hate cards and Voice (a one- or two-of in GWx lists like pod). Even Legacy has gotten a bigger shakeup from TNN. Unless Fae bursts out in a big way all we have done is change the Goyf deck from Jund to Zoo in the same meta we had before, and given UWR and Pod carte blanche to run away with the format.
It also should be noted that I advocate for an unban of SotM no matter what. Just anything to potentially add a new deck to this format which is increasingly monotonous. What reason is there to play a deck that's not URx (Twin or otherwise), Pod, or Zoo?
I don't see how anyone can call for more banning at this point. Doing so would continue to drive people away from the format. Just yesterday everyone was going on about how overpowered GBx decks were and how bad blue was in modern, now it's the other way around and everyone is talking about how oppressive control is and that we need to ban more cards.
Regardless, I'll bite on a few of the above ban proposals:
Tarmogoyf: It's a dumb beater, and while ultra efficient is easily hated out as it relies in the graveyard and dies to just about anything. I don't buy the pushes other choices out argument either. Remove it and another "best" 2 drop will just take its place. It can be chumped all day as well, while being fragile to two angles of attack: removal and graveyard hate. It has no evasion and is easy to interact with. We really don't need to power down modern any more than it already is, and banning this card would set a precedent that no card is safe from the ban-hammer (no I'm not calling for 20 power 2 drops or any of that nonsense, I just think goyf is a perfect example of an efficient and easy to interact with card that should represent the power level that modern is at). Let me ask this, would anyone call for the re-banning of Wild Nacatl? That was a card that was banned for just the same reason that many people are wanting to ban goyf for (it's too powerful of a 1 drop that reduces diversity and pushes out other 1 drops) and everyone (including myself) thought it should have come off the ban list. The argument there again was it pushes out all other aggressive 1 drops.
Snapcaster: This card cannot be compared to DRS in my opinion, and saying if DRS is banned then this one should be banned just seems wrong (in my opinion of course). It is single use card advantage, and essentially provides a way to give a card in your graveyard flashback for an additional 1U while giving you a 1 toughness bear (or in many cases either a chump blocker and/or 2 damage to the opponent the following turn. It's like a build your own mystic snake almost). DRS provided 2 life damage or gain per turn that can't be blocked or prevented, ramped you ahead a turn and hated on the opponents graveyard. While some hate may hit both of these cards, that is where the similarities end. The issue with DRS is that if you played either green or black it was an auto include no matter what, and it did way too many things while also providing hate against certain decks that is normally reserved for the sideboard. And it didn't just homogenize multiple decks across the board, it stifled opposing deck strategies (something that neither goyf or snapcaster do on their own). I even saw this when I set out to build a deck with DRS in it, no matter what I did, I eventually started bringing in other black/green staples to the point where I said...well, might as well just play jund or junk.
If you start throwing the hammer at more cards such as snapcaster, goyf, liliana, manamorphose, lightning bolt, and storm cards (to name a few I've heard people shout for), you're just going to kill the format and frustrate people (as well as dumb it down until it looks like a non rotating standard). DRS I can understand (and I played 4 of them in several of my decks), but start hitting some these other cards for no other reason than that they are good, efficient, people don't like them or can't afford them just seems wrong. If anything, print new toys to shake things up and tweak balance as needed, or even pull other cards off the ban list going forward to mix things up
Also, what ktkenshinx said...it hasn't even been a full month with the updated list. What I believe happened at the PT is everyone prepared for certain decks, which left an opening for some of the more combo and control oriented decks. This is ideal in my mind, as it opens the door for a shifting meta that will ebb and flow, leaving opportunity for those who can predict the meta and make smart deck choices, while also being balanced enough for those who set out to master a specific deck.
I don't want SCM or DRS banned. But it is picking winners and reducing format diversity to have one banned while the other is legal. The UR shell is now where the BG shell was. There were five decks in the top 8 at the PT playing SCM and Lightning Bolt with some amount of counters in the top 8 of the PT. The breakout "new deck" from the tour was just another SCM/Bolt/counter deck. SCM is the most obvious card to ban from that shell because like SFM it restricts future design space and like DRS it is good whenever it's drawn. Again, if DRS is the standard, SCM fits it.
I agree with you that it is very early. But what is going to change? None of the past 4 expansions have added anything to modern except for a couple narrow hate cards and Voice (a one- or two-of in GWx lists like pod). Even Legacy has gotten a bigger shakeup from TNN. Unless Fae bursts out in a big way all we have done is change the Goyf deck from Jund to Zoo in the same meta we had before, and given UWR and Pod carte blanche to run away with the format.
It is just way, way too early to to advocate for anything at this point. We literally don't even have a full month of post-ban data. If you look at almost any one month of data in Modern history, things look imbalanced. From July to August it was all Melira Pod all the time. From May to June it was all UWR all the time. You acknowledge that it "is very early", but you really can't suggest that nothing is going to change in that time. Modern has more than enough decks and cards to operate in cycles. Aggro was huge at PT Valencia so there was a lot of combo. Now with combo in full swing, we should expect to see more control and midrange, including both BG Rock and Jund, decks that are still very strong against decks like Twin, Storm, and Amulet. We also don't have a functional Faeries list right now both because it takes longer to develop that list, and because Fae isn't exactly optimal in a metagame full of Nacatls. And once the pendulum swings towards those more controlling decks, we should see a return to more Zoo, Burn, Affinity, and other aggro decks. This is how nonrotating formats should work and it is much too early to suggest that Modern won't shift this way.
Even Twin started running Goyf and Ooze - the most consistent combo deck with the best beaters... yea... I still don't understand why Bloodbraid elf was banned (which is the least oppressive card from the deck - Tarmo, DRS, Liliana and Bob are all undercosted - while BBE's 4 mana is ok)
Remember that BBE was banned not because it was the best card in Jund, but because it was the best card in Jund that no other decks used. The DCI wanted a narrow ban that would only hit Jund without too much collateral damage. Honestly, DRS should have been banned then instead of a year later and maybe BBE should be free (too early to say, really). But when Wizards axed BBE, it was not because they thought it was the best card in the deck, and that is an important distinction to bear in mind when discussing the banlist.
Even Twin started running Goyf and Ooze - the most consistent combo deck with the best beaters... yea... I still don't understand why Bloodbraid elf was banned (which is the least oppressive card from the deck - Tarmo, DRS, Liliana and Bob are all undercosted - while BBE's 4 mana is ok)
Take either Ooze or goyf out of the equation though and lower the power level, and someone will probably still come up with a RUG twin list that runs an efficient beater (it will just be the next most efficient one down the line instead). That is the thing, those cards are efficient, not broken, so there isn't really a reason for a ban on them (other than to reduce overall power level). Then the next best thing/most efficient card will pop up and into the cross-hairs as people will want that banned... I don't think they are reducing deck diversity either (as DRS did by steering everyone towards BGx), if anything RUG twin provides another permutation on the existing twin lists. I like facing variations within an archetype as well for variety sake.
I hear you on BBE elf. I think the reason for the ban there was compared to all the other cards, it was the one that was exclusively played in Jund (as well as the occasional zoo list) and for four mana, you got a 3 power hasted body with a second "free" spell that could potentially cost up to three mana. Four mana for a 3 power haste creature and the ability to cast blightning for free for example sounds pretty powerful. Regardless, I still think DRS should have been the first ban to that deck, but it was unfortunately such a new card I don't think they wanted to go that route and didn't realize how much it would warp the format. I honestly hope the power level of modern stays at least where it is and we continue to see cards come off the ban list. I'd love for the format to be balanced and healthy enough that someday BBE can be in the discussion for coming off the ban list.
It's hard to say for sure because the new metagame is still young, but if Jund replaced Zoo after Nacatl was banned and Zoo is going to retake that space and push out Jund now that Nacatl is back, then I wouldn't mind seeing BBE and/or DRS back sooner rather than later. I think DRS was likely being overplayed pre-ban because it didn't really have any meaningful competition at 1-drop in the format. Now that Nacatl is back, it has some competition. Bring back Ponder or Preordain and Delver may be a thing again too.
Lets be honest. Goyf (and path and bolt) are the reasons most aggro decks aren't really viable. Sure some aggro decks use these cards as well but they're better against them than when they use them themselves like the case of DRS in melira pod. Banning goyf wouldn't "just replace it with the next best 2 drop" because there isn't one that can do all that goyf does in one neat card. You can get some approximations like ooze but there's isn't a card quite like it. I do think it's too late to ban the card and if so should've been done at the beginning of the format. Now it's a fixture and an accepted part of the format imo.
Calling for the banning of blue (snapcaster) just because one event finally shows blue decks out in force instead of GBx seems way too premature. It was good because zoo was the best deck and people built big (slower) zoo to beat those decks. This benefits the slower decks or combo decks in turn that are good choices against that. It's likely that the next event a deck that preys on blue could easily prey on blue decks like say faeries? The point is these decks (zoo, uwr, twin) are all hateable and metagameable much more easily than the BGx deck ever could be.
It's too early to call it (maybe twin or pod is too good to hate) but it looks like things are nicely setup for a cycle similar to legacy where aggro, control, combo decks are good depending on which decks/sideboards people play with unlike BGx that had maybe 1 or 2 "bad" matchups.
Good post, while we might have slightly different views on goyf, I think you are spot on with the rest of this assessment. Specifically in the similarities that we are starting to see when compared to legacy, something I also think the format should strive for to reward good meta choices and those who know their decks inside and out.
I'm just going to point out that cards being banned because they are unfun has happened before, will happen again, and is perfectly fine. However, it's probably never going to happen in Modern, because that rationale is reserved for old cards that are just plain dismal.
The most obvious example is the banning of Trinisphere in vintage, which was mainly banned for causing unfun games where no one could actually do anything. It wasn't dominant (certainly less dominant than other vintage decks that haven't gotten bannings), it wasn't any faster than the rest of the format, it was just blatantly unfun, and pushed people out of the format. It's perfectly fair for Wizards to say "this deck is absolutely unfun, it makes people not want to play the format, we're going to ban a card from it". Realistically, however, the threshold for that is so high it's never going to happen. We don't have decks like that in modern. Hopefully we never will. If we do, something has gone very wrong.
Here's a more relevant example for what that sort of deck might look like: Because of some new printings, a U/R land destruction deck emerges that can start destroying your lands on turn 1 and just keep doing that every turn. It uses Howling Mine to draw into more land destruction, while you can't cast the spells you draw. It doesn't play any win condition, just land destruction, some burn, and howling mine effects. It kills you by drawing you to death with Howling Mine. It never wins, and only rarely makes top 8, it doesn't violate the turn 3 rule. But it's strong enough that a lot of people play it, enough people that, if you're playing a ptq, chances are you'll run into it once and spend 2-3 games pulling out your hair and not knowing what to do. Wizards would probably ban a critical card or two from that to keep people from having to deal with it. I'd argue they would be totally justified with that ban, because decks that are sufficiently un-fun can do very real damage to the format.
Of course, that's probably never going to happen, because for all the faults in the New World Order and the direction wizards has been taking for the last several years, they're probably never going to print cards that make decks like that even remotely possible. And I'm sure we can all agree that, whatever you may say about storm, it is not that bad.
As for banning/unbanning right now: while I agree that it's WAY too early to seriously discuss, it's worth talking about any cards that could be safely unbanned. Golgari Grave-Troll, for instance.
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Modern has had a problem with being "Combo Decks: The Format." It's not quite clear, though, what the best way to balance it out is. A few things appear clear though-
Jund was keeping a lot of combo in check, but DRS was completely overpowered in the format, causing the deck to become way more consistent, explosive, and adding a ridiculous amount of reach and utility. The pre-DRS version of it was much grindier. The DRS ban was completely necessary, but opened the floodgates. Control and Tempo U-based strategies, the other decks with heavy disruption, appear to have picked up some of the slack, but with so many angles to cover they can draw "the wrong half of the deck" in G1, creating consistency issues. With the deck currently not looking good enough, I expect to see Bloodbraid Elf make a return to the format sooner than later unless the deck has a breakout performance. The pre-RTR version of the deck was annoying and grindy, but not overpowered.
Splinter Twin is Modern's version of Time Vault. The trend to just take another archetype (U/R tempo, RUG tempo, UWR Midrange), and just slap some Exarchs and Twins in is worrisome. It's a creature based combo, yes, but because it operates entirely at instant speed and with only two real points of interaction in most cases, the presence of 1cc hard counters like Dispel, Mizzium Skin and Swan Song creates a situation where either an All-In Twin deck waits until it has enough mana to go under its opponent, or a midrange/tempo twin deck simply exhausts its opponents' resources. Most combo decks require multiple steps or some form of set-up process that can be interfered with. Twin does not. Twin was being kept in check because Jund was so good at denying it resources. But with Jund diminished, I would not be surprised if it became the most common deck seen at tournaments. It's already #2 at the PT. I suspect that would not be a healthy thing for the format.
Storm may just not have had the right card banned. Chapin points to Manamorphose. Shrout (who plays storm) seems to think it's Past in Flames. I don't know enough about the deck (yet) to give an opinion, but they may be right in that the deck is still too good. However, one good thing about the format- near Mono-U decks often blow the deck straight up. Playing Mono-U Fae two seasons ago, Storm was a literal bye. They simply couldn't get through the countermagic.
I'm not sure what, if anything can be or should be done right now. But the combo % being that high certainly points to a potential issue. However, what's also clearly an issue is that so many people going into the PT simply didn't play or follow the format well enough to know not to play Wild Nacatl decks.
1. Kenshin, I don't think anyone here is going to disagree with you about "the ban format" being super unhealthy for Modern in the long run. It's something a lot of people (including myself) have been saying for a long time now).
2. That Chapin quote. That quote makes me want to vomit. "Storm wins too consistently on Turn 4" WHAT? This is a turn 4 format. That's the GOAL! Did well in one tournament, must ban. Slightly below average interactivity, must ban. "Unfun to play against"(I don't know about you, but I never have fun when I lose), must ban. God forbid players initiate shifts in the meta to combat popular trends and allow for internal balance and self-regulation. That would be a crazy concept that totally hasn't worked for decades in every single magic format that has existed(it has). I'm really getting disgusted by this "Ban first ask question later" Yu-gi-oh style of balance. Obviously in an environment where everyone thinks storm is dead and are heavily prepped for Zoo, storm is going to do better and Zoo worse. Calling for a ban is asinine, amoral, and disgraceful.
3. As an aside, and not to take anything away from Finkel, but him(and others of note) piloting storm doesn't really change much. As a primarily gold-fishing non-interactive deck with an extremely straight-forward and one-dimensional strategy, the pilot doesn't really have a huge impact.
GGT, BBE, and AV need to come off.
Ponder and Preordain probably should come off, but can't so long as Storm is in the spotlight.
SFM is going to remain on the list for the foreseeable future despite how many people call for a Batterskull swap(and I don't feel like continuing to fruitlessly explain to biased people why this is).
Jitte and Mox while balanced will probably remain on the list for homogenization reasons.
SoM and Jace are probably going to come off the list, but later rather than sooner.
Did I miss anything?
GGT, BBE, and AV need to come off.
Ponder and Preordain probably should come off, but can't so long as Storm is in the spotlight.
SFM is going to remain on the list for the foreseeable future despite how many people call for a Batterskull swap(and I don't feel like continuing to fruitlessly explain to biased people why this is).
Jitte and Mox while balanced will probably remain on the list for homogenization reasons.
SoM and Jace are probably going to come off the list, but later rather than sooner.
Did I miss anything?
It's funny that i'm pretty much the only person in this thread that would instantly sign all of those propostions, if it was up to me to shape the format, yet you think that somehow SFM is broken.
In a format where all the other stuff is unbanned SFM + Skull might as well could be added into the mix anyway.
It's not a question of balanced or broken. I don't think SFM is broken at all. But it's in the same boat as Jitte and Mox. Where Wizards is taking a creative format shaping liberty with a card(combo) that is riding a line between power and ubiquity. SFM+Skull would slot easily into the vast majority of decks in the format, homogenize things, and we'd see a result much the same as when Caw-Blade was so much more than 'dominant.' This however is a case of politics and popularity forcing a decision that is healthy for the format, contrast to so many of the other politically charged calls that Wizards has made with Modern.
And as much as everyone's inner hipster would like to believe they are in the minority, I highly doubt you are the only person who shares this view. I would go so far as to say they are all very safe statements among those who do not have heavy biases towards or against anything on the list. The vast majority already concede that the list is too long(majority meaning just that, so obviously there will be detractors to this idea).
I don't think he's doing it for the page views; if he was he'd put it on Select.
Yeah, but Select doesn't get people to buy Premium. I mean, there is a real temptation to go and buy Premium just to see what he's going on about, even if you think it's stupid.
I don't think he's doing it for the page views; if he was he'd put it on Select.
Yeah, but Select doesn't get people to buy Premium. I mean, there is a real temptation to go and buy Premium just to see what he's going on about, even if you think it's stupid.
This, ESPN and many other websites do the same thing to entice readers to buy into their subscription services. At the end of the day they are a business after all.
- It bypasses normal mana limits, something traditionally a cause of banworthy cards
- It stops interaction, usually against degenerate combo decks, not good for modern
- The only way for many decks to interact with the degenerate goldfishing decks is discard, and this stops this from happening
Holy moly. Are we really still talking about this? Does this generation of Magic players not understand what banlists are for? I really respect Ghorak and his level-headed analysis of why Leyline is probably the last card in the format we should consider for a ban, because I am closer to issuing spam warnings than explaining why Leyline of Sanctity has no business being bannable. The purpose of the banlist is not to eliminate every single card in the format that limits interaction. It is also not to make an entire archetype (combo) unplayable. The banlist is to rein in oppressive and overly fast strategies, and Leyline doesn't remotely come close to qualifying on any of those grounds.
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Yes, there's some more context to these quotes than I am giving (I don't want to post too much of the article so I am only quoting the most succinct pieces of it). But that's really the gist of Chapin's stance on Modern bannings now.
I'm not going to dive too deep into his idea. I tend to like Chapin as a writer and player, but to be honest, I really hate his suggestions for Modern. He's had some really bad ones before and I get the sense he does it for press/views more than anything else. This is a particularly egregious example of it. Even analyzing the quote on its own merits independent of its writer, the banning of Manamorphose seems like a terrible idea for the format. Not only is it way, way, way too early to call for a ban on anything, but it perpetuates this ridiculous "ban first, ask questions later" mentality that has become synonymous with Modern. He even says so himself in the article - With less black discard around, combo decks get powerful. So instead of crying for a ban, why not let the metagame shift back towards black midrange or control?
This format is quickly becoming the ban format and although it's overall popular, that banning precedent is a bad one for the future. Ultimately, I just wish people (pros included, apparently) would wait for metagame shifts, new cards, and new tech/decks before calling for something so final and public as a ban. On this forum, people do that because they either aren't thinking critically or because they want to be sensational. I imagine it's the same for major writers like Chapin and, in the end, that's not a direction that is healthy for our format.
Could you please elaborate on why he thinks storm deserves another ban? Just because it performed well in the hands of a few of the best players in the world when no one was expected it to be viable? Or does he cite some on-camera turn 3 wins or something? Faeries did just as well day 2 but I don't see anyone worried about that yet...and in fact Faeries should be an excellent choice if you expect storm to be popular.
I have to say it seems crazy to keep banning rituals. At this point if storm deserves another ban (and I don't think I it does) it makes much more sense to hit pyromancers Ascension, Past in Flames, or Grapeshot instead of rituals and/or cantrips. It's been said that insanity is doing the same things over and over again but expecting different results. So WotC would be nuts to try to hinder Storm by continuing to go after the rituals and can trips instead of he enabler (ascension, past in flames) or undercosted and likely broken Storm finishers (Grapeshot, etc).
Speculate less. Test more.
When Chapin actually plays Modern and doesn't lose out 3-5 and takes the time to invest and learn the format then he can speak. Until then though...
In this link https://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/eventcoverage/ptbng14/moderndecks there's 12 Wild Nacatl decks, but only two play more than zero Thalia?
You side a lot of that out against Storm-type decks, though. Not maindecking her is understandable, but I would think she would be helpful coming out of the sideboard.
"i cant believe" that chapin said something like that, seems like he is upset because he couldnt beat storm
WU Grand Arbiter Augustin IV
RWU Numot, the Devastator
WUB Oloro, Ageless Ascetic
WB Athreos, God of Passage
I mean, I don't think Splinter Twin does deserve a ban, but if you want to ban something from a combo deck, Splinter Twin is the one with way more of a proven record than Storm.
Maybe he gives some better arguments in the full article, but that still really makes me go "what?"
Unban Deathrite Shaman
Ban Tarmogoyf
OR
Unban Sword of the Meek
Ban Snapcaster Mage
Reasoning: While clearly Jund needed a hit, DRS was the wrong choice. Without DRS providing value to the BGx decks, UWR is oppressive. People thought DRS was too oppressive because it was Grim Lavamancer, Birds of Paradise, and a lifegain/gravehate spell. But it dies to so much, and has summoning sickness, and is vulnerable to grave hate itself! It served as a check on Pod decks (by monkeying with their value) and UWR decks (by providing inevitability and plucking SCM targets).
With Wild Nacatl unbanned, Zoo was in a position to pressure Jund, even with DRS still in the format. Jund damages itself a lot and is subject to being overrun by Zoo. Its removal suite, other than Bolt, is inefficient against Zoo decks: Abrupt Decay, Terminate, Dismember, Liliana and Maelstrom Pulse cost more than the creatures they'd be removing. It was also subject to Tarmogoyf stalls and just being burned out. But now Jund is essentially dead, and even though the BG rock decks are pretty good, they lack the card that really gives them value against UWR and Pod.
Meanwhile, Goyf pushes every 2cmc and some 3cmc creatures out of the format with its pure efficiency. Yes, a turn 2 Liliana is scary. So you have to be ready to kill a 2 toughness creature on turn 1. That doesn't help you when they just plop down a 3/4 or 4/5 instead on turn 2. Now you're getting clocked and you need to be playing, essentially, a Jund deck yourself or a Path deck to beat it. That pushed the format into more BGx decks. Further, with the Nacatl unbanned, you still have to be able to kill a 3 toughness creature on turn 1, which means cheap effective removal is just as needed as it was with DRS in the format.
If Goyf had been banned instead of DRS, Jund's mana curve would've been higher (relevant with Bob and its already large amount of fetching/shocking/Thoughtseizing), making it weaker to aggressive decks, but it still could've fought control and Pod like it had been, preventing those decks from getting out of control.
If DRS must remain banned, then Snapcaster Mage should be banned as well. It is subject to all the same hate that hit DRS that seemingly people are unwilling to play (RIP, Tormod's Crypt effects, etc.), except for removal — it doesn't need to untap to be effective. Look at it this way: It is an instant speed Yawgmoth's Will on a stick. DRS turned your used Bolts and fetches into 2 life drain and a mana? SCM turns your used bolts into bolts! It makes UWR just too good — it makes their graveyard into a wishboard. If DRS and Stoneforge Mystic is the standard for banning a utility creature, SCM fits the bill as well.
Personally, I think both those cards are fair and balanced. Tarmogoyf is a huge mistake, though — as much as a creature that only attacks and blocks can be. (Well, its problem is more that it completely pushes other cards out of the format, sort of like GSZ does).
As for sword of the meek, it is banned because of a combo with Thopter Foundry, itself an artifact with an activation cost. That means it is vulnerable to SB hate people are already running for Pod and Affinity like Ancient Grudge, Stony Silence, Pithing Needle, Wear // Tear, Kataki, etc. There also could be a deck that plays it with Bitterblossom out there that would add to the format instead of just keeping us in this perpetual rotation of Tron, Pod, UWR, and Zoo (where Jund used to be Zoo).
Just my view.
He mentions two reasons that Storm should be banned. First, it wins on turn 4 too consistently with too few "points of interaction" for other decks. Twin, an entirely creature-based combo deck, has lots of interaction points. Storm, which is mostly spell-based, has a lot less. As such, Chapin thinks its unfair for the format. Second, Storm is "excruciating to play with, play against, or watch." He thinks it takes too much time, is too uninteractive, and is "outside" the scope of what should be normal Magic.
Personally, I think these are quite possibly the dumbest reasons I have ever heard for a ban in Modern. And that's even comparing his rationale to the rationale we sometimes see on these forums. It is insanely easy to interact with Storm IF you are trying to interact with it. We have these cards called Thoughtseize and Inquisition of Kozilek in the format, along with Scooze, Decay, Spell Snare, etc. It turns out that when you prepare your PT deck to beat Zoo, Melira Pod, UWR Midrange/Control, and Twin, you are pretty dang vulnerable to a graveyard based combo deck. It also turns out that there's this thing called a sideboard to reduce that vulnerability. It would be one thing if the deck was consistently winning on turn 3; that would be too fast. But Chapin even admits that it's a turn 4 deck that is just too hard to interact with. Well Pat, it's only hard to interact with it if you aren't trying to interact with it.
As to the second reason about the deck being unfun, I am genuinely shocked that a pro player would suggest this as a valid reason for a ban. The day decks are banned because they are unfun is the day Magic ends. It's one thing if the deck is unfun and it causes logistical problems (e.g. Second Sunrise from Eggs). Or if the deck is unfun/noninteractive and potentially too fast (Dread Return). Or if the deck is unfun because it dominates the metagame (Caw caw caw!) But Storm is a deck that fits all the format's parameters and is only unfun if you build a deck that refuses to interact with it. It's just one piece of the metagame that is fun to some and unfun to others, just as many other decks are fun to some and unfun to others. I don't think there is anything fun about playing against UWR Control or Affinity or Infect, but I don't go around calling for bannings of my personal dislikes.
Again, I really have to believe that Chapin is making these suggestions for pageviews and sensationalism. No one in their right mind should call for bans after one event. Maybe he's just unhappy he did poorly at the event. I don't know.
More bannings! One event in and we still have people calling for bannings! At least wait until GP Richmond to start doomsaying about cards that supposedly need to be banned. Comparing Tiago to DRS is particularly egregious because I don't think there is any evidence to suggest that Snappy is reducing format diversity. People claim that it makes UWR too good, and yet there are a ton of other non-blue decks that are viable in this format.
I don't want SCM or DRS banned. But it is picking winners and reducing format diversity to have one banned while the other is legal. The UR shell is now where the BG shell was. There were five decks in the top 8 at the PT playing SCM and Lightning Bolt with some amount of counters in the top 8 of the PT. The breakout "new deck" from the tour was just another SCM/Bolt/counter deck. SCM is the most obvious card to ban from that shell because like SFM it restricts future design space and like DRS it is good whenever it's drawn. Again, if DRS is the standard, SCM fits it.
I agree with you that it is very early. But what is going to change? None of the past 4 expansions have added anything to modern except for a couple narrow hate cards and Voice (a one- or two-of in GWx lists like pod). Even Legacy has gotten a bigger shakeup from TNN. Unless Fae bursts out in a big way all we have done is change the Goyf deck from Jund to Zoo in the same meta we had before, and given UWR and Pod carte blanche to run away with the format.
It also should be noted that I advocate for an unban of SotM no matter what. Just anything to potentially add a new deck to this format which is increasingly monotonous. What reason is there to play a deck that's not URx (Twin or otherwise), Pod, or Zoo?
I believe in results, so unless Storm consistently takes 2 slots of the Top 8 at GPs or drags rounds 15 minutes past time, nothing needs to be done.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
Regardless, I'll bite on a few of the above ban proposals:
Tarmogoyf: It's a dumb beater, and while ultra efficient is easily hated out as it relies in the graveyard and dies to just about anything. I don't buy the pushes other choices out argument either. Remove it and another "best" 2 drop will just take its place. It can be chumped all day as well, while being fragile to two angles of attack: removal and graveyard hate. It has no evasion and is easy to interact with. We really don't need to power down modern any more than it already is, and banning this card would set a precedent that no card is safe from the ban-hammer (no I'm not calling for 20 power 2 drops or any of that nonsense, I just think goyf is a perfect example of an efficient and easy to interact with card that should represent the power level that modern is at). Let me ask this, would anyone call for the re-banning of Wild Nacatl? That was a card that was banned for just the same reason that many people are wanting to ban goyf for (it's too powerful of a 1 drop that reduces diversity and pushes out other 1 drops) and everyone (including myself) thought it should have come off the ban list. The argument there again was it pushes out all other aggressive 1 drops.
Snapcaster: This card cannot be compared to DRS in my opinion, and saying if DRS is banned then this one should be banned just seems wrong (in my opinion of course). It is single use card advantage, and essentially provides a way to give a card in your graveyard flashback for an additional 1U while giving you a 1 toughness bear (or in many cases either a chump blocker and/or 2 damage to the opponent the following turn. It's like a build your own mystic snake almost). DRS provided 2 life damage or gain per turn that can't be blocked or prevented, ramped you ahead a turn and hated on the opponents graveyard. While some hate may hit both of these cards, that is where the similarities end. The issue with DRS is that if you played either green or black it was an auto include no matter what, and it did way too many things while also providing hate against certain decks that is normally reserved for the sideboard. And it didn't just homogenize multiple decks across the board, it stifled opposing deck strategies (something that neither goyf or snapcaster do on their own). I even saw this when I set out to build a deck with DRS in it, no matter what I did, I eventually started bringing in other black/green staples to the point where I said...well, might as well just play jund or junk.
If you start throwing the hammer at more cards such as snapcaster, goyf, liliana, manamorphose, lightning bolt, and storm cards (to name a few I've heard people shout for), you're just going to kill the format and frustrate people (as well as dumb it down until it looks like a non rotating standard). DRS I can understand (and I played 4 of them in several of my decks), but start hitting some these other cards for no other reason than that they are good, efficient, people don't like them or can't afford them just seems wrong. If anything, print new toys to shake things up and tweak balance as needed, or even pull other cards off the ban list going forward to mix things up
Also, what ktkenshinx said...it hasn't even been a full month with the updated list. What I believe happened at the PT is everyone prepared for certain decks, which left an opening for some of the more combo and control oriented decks. This is ideal in my mind, as it opens the door for a shifting meta that will ebb and flow, leaving opportunity for those who can predict the meta and make smart deck choices, while also being balanced enough for those who set out to master a specific deck.
It is just way, way too early to to advocate for anything at this point. We literally don't even have a full month of post-ban data. If you look at almost any one month of data in Modern history, things look imbalanced. From July to August it was all Melira Pod all the time. From May to June it was all UWR all the time. You acknowledge that it "is very early", but you really can't suggest that nothing is going to change in that time. Modern has more than enough decks and cards to operate in cycles. Aggro was huge at PT Valencia so there was a lot of combo. Now with combo in full swing, we should expect to see more control and midrange, including both BG Rock and Jund, decks that are still very strong against decks like Twin, Storm, and Amulet. We also don't have a functional Faeries list right now both because it takes longer to develop that list, and because Fae isn't exactly optimal in a metagame full of Nacatls. And once the pendulum swings towards those more controlling decks, we should see a return to more Zoo, Burn, Affinity, and other aggro decks. This is how nonrotating formats should work and it is much too early to suggest that Modern won't shift this way.
Remember that BBE was banned not because it was the best card in Jund, but because it was the best card in Jund that no other decks used. The DCI wanted a narrow ban that would only hit Jund without too much collateral damage. Honestly, DRS should have been banned then instead of a year later and maybe BBE should be free (too early to say, really). But when Wizards axed BBE, it was not because they thought it was the best card in the deck, and that is an important distinction to bear in mind when discussing the banlist.
Take either Ooze or goyf out of the equation though and lower the power level, and someone will probably still come up with a RUG twin list that runs an efficient beater (it will just be the next most efficient one down the line instead). That is the thing, those cards are efficient, not broken, so there isn't really a reason for a ban on them (other than to reduce overall power level). Then the next best thing/most efficient card will pop up and into the cross-hairs as people will want that banned... I don't think they are reducing deck diversity either (as DRS did by steering everyone towards BGx), if anything RUG twin provides another permutation on the existing twin lists. I like facing variations within an archetype as well for variety sake.
I hear you on BBE elf. I think the reason for the ban there was compared to all the other cards, it was the one that was exclusively played in Jund (as well as the occasional zoo list) and for four mana, you got a 3 power hasted body with a second "free" spell that could potentially cost up to three mana. Four mana for a 3 power haste creature and the ability to cast blightning for free for example sounds pretty powerful. Regardless, I still think DRS should have been the first ban to that deck, but it was unfortunately such a new card I don't think they wanted to go that route and didn't realize how much it would warp the format. I honestly hope the power level of modern stays at least where it is and we continue to see cards come off the ban list. I'd love for the format to be balanced and healthy enough that someday BBE can be in the discussion for coming off the ban list.
Speculate less. Test more.
Good post, while we might have slightly different views on goyf, I think you are spot on with the rest of this assessment. Specifically in the similarities that we are starting to see when compared to legacy, something I also think the format should strive for to reward good meta choices and those who know their decks inside and out.
The most obvious example is the banning of Trinisphere in vintage, which was mainly banned for causing unfun games where no one could actually do anything. It wasn't dominant (certainly less dominant than other vintage decks that haven't gotten bannings), it wasn't any faster than the rest of the format, it was just blatantly unfun, and pushed people out of the format. It's perfectly fair for Wizards to say "this deck is absolutely unfun, it makes people not want to play the format, we're going to ban a card from it". Realistically, however, the threshold for that is so high it's never going to happen. We don't have decks like that in modern. Hopefully we never will. If we do, something has gone very wrong.
Here's a more relevant example for what that sort of deck might look like: Because of some new printings, a U/R land destruction deck emerges that can start destroying your lands on turn 1 and just keep doing that every turn. It uses Howling Mine to draw into more land destruction, while you can't cast the spells you draw. It doesn't play any win condition, just land destruction, some burn, and howling mine effects. It kills you by drawing you to death with Howling Mine. It never wins, and only rarely makes top 8, it doesn't violate the turn 3 rule. But it's strong enough that a lot of people play it, enough people that, if you're playing a ptq, chances are you'll run into it once and spend 2-3 games pulling out your hair and not knowing what to do. Wizards would probably ban a critical card or two from that to keep people from having to deal with it. I'd argue they would be totally justified with that ban, because decks that are sufficiently un-fun can do very real damage to the format.
Of course, that's probably never going to happen, because for all the faults in the New World Order and the direction wizards has been taking for the last several years, they're probably never going to print cards that make decks like that even remotely possible. And I'm sure we can all agree that, whatever you may say about storm, it is not that bad.
As for banning/unbanning right now: while I agree that it's WAY too early to seriously discuss, it's worth talking about any cards that could be safely unbanned. Golgari Grave-Troll, for instance.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Jund was keeping a lot of combo in check, but DRS was completely overpowered in the format, causing the deck to become way more consistent, explosive, and adding a ridiculous amount of reach and utility. The pre-DRS version of it was much grindier. The DRS ban was completely necessary, but opened the floodgates. Control and Tempo U-based strategies, the other decks with heavy disruption, appear to have picked up some of the slack, but with so many angles to cover they can draw "the wrong half of the deck" in G1, creating consistency issues. With the deck currently not looking good enough, I expect to see Bloodbraid Elf make a return to the format sooner than later unless the deck has a breakout performance. The pre-RTR version of the deck was annoying and grindy, but not overpowered.
Splinter Twin is Modern's version of Time Vault. The trend to just take another archetype (U/R tempo, RUG tempo, UWR Midrange), and just slap some Exarchs and Twins in is worrisome. It's a creature based combo, yes, but because it operates entirely at instant speed and with only two real points of interaction in most cases, the presence of 1cc hard counters like Dispel, Mizzium Skin and Swan Song creates a situation where either an All-In Twin deck waits until it has enough mana to go under its opponent, or a midrange/tempo twin deck simply exhausts its opponents' resources. Most combo decks require multiple steps or some form of set-up process that can be interfered with. Twin does not. Twin was being kept in check because Jund was so good at denying it resources. But with Jund diminished, I would not be surprised if it became the most common deck seen at tournaments. It's already #2 at the PT. I suspect that would not be a healthy thing for the format.
Storm may just not have had the right card banned. Chapin points to Manamorphose. Shrout (who plays storm) seems to think it's Past in Flames. I don't know enough about the deck (yet) to give an opinion, but they may be right in that the deck is still too good. However, one good thing about the format- near Mono-U decks often blow the deck straight up. Playing Mono-U Fae two seasons ago, Storm was a literal bye. They simply couldn't get through the countermagic.
I'm not sure what, if anything can be or should be done right now. But the combo % being that high certainly points to a potential issue. However, what's also clearly an issue is that so many people going into the PT simply didn't play or follow the format well enough to know not to play Wild Nacatl decks.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
2. That Chapin quote. That quote makes me want to vomit. "Storm wins too consistently on Turn 4" WHAT? This is a turn 4 format. That's the GOAL! Did well in one tournament, must ban. Slightly below average interactivity, must ban. "Unfun to play against"(I don't know about you, but I never have fun when I lose), must ban. God forbid players initiate shifts in the meta to combat popular trends and allow for internal balance and self-regulation. That would be a crazy concept that totally hasn't worked for decades in every single magic format that has existed(it has). I'm really getting disgusted by this "Ban first ask question later" Yu-gi-oh style of balance. Obviously in an environment where everyone thinks storm is dead and are heavily prepped for Zoo, storm is going to do better and Zoo worse. Calling for a ban is asinine, amoral, and disgraceful.
3. As an aside, and not to take anything away from Finkel, but him(and others of note) piloting storm doesn't really change much. As a primarily gold-fishing non-interactive deck with an extremely straight-forward and one-dimensional strategy, the pilot doesn't really have a huge impact.
GGT, BBE, and AV need to come off.
Ponder and Preordain probably should come off, but can't so long as Storm is in the spotlight.
SFM is going to remain on the list for the foreseeable future despite how many people call for a Batterskull swap(and I don't feel like continuing to fruitlessly explain to biased people why this is).
Jitte and Mox while balanced will probably remain on the list for homogenization reasons.
SoM and Jace are probably going to come off the list, but later rather than sooner.
Did I miss anything?
It's not a question of balanced or broken. I don't think SFM is broken at all. But it's in the same boat as Jitte and Mox. Where Wizards is taking a creative format shaping liberty with a card(combo) that is riding a line between power and ubiquity. SFM+Skull would slot easily into the vast majority of decks in the format, homogenize things, and we'd see a result much the same as when Caw-Blade was so much more than 'dominant.' This however is a case of politics and popularity forcing a decision that is healthy for the format, contrast to so many of the other politically charged calls that Wizards has made with Modern.
And as much as everyone's inner hipster would like to believe they are in the minority, I highly doubt you are the only person who shares this view. I would go so far as to say they are all very safe statements among those who do not have heavy biases towards or against anything on the list. The vast majority already concede that the list is too long(majority meaning just that, so obviously there will be detractors to this idea).
Yeah, but Select doesn't get people to buy Premium. I mean, there is a real temptation to go and buy Premium just to see what he's going on about, even if you think it's stupid.
This, ESPN and many other websites do the same thing to entice readers to buy into their subscription services. At the end of the day they are a business after all.
Holy moly. Are we really still talking about this? Does this generation of Magic players not understand what banlists are for? I really respect Ghorak and his level-headed analysis of why Leyline is probably the last card in the format we should consider for a ban, because I am closer to issuing spam warnings than explaining why Leyline of Sanctity has no business being bannable. The purpose of the banlist is not to eliminate every single card in the format that limits interaction. It is also not to make an entire archetype (combo) unplayable. The banlist is to rein in oppressive and overly fast strategies, and Leyline doesn't remotely come close to qualifying on any of those grounds.