We should all talk about the elephant in the room that is pod, but I guess ppl won't say anything til after the PT and the pod dominance we will see there, unless there turns out to be a huge amount of oozes in the meta.
The only card that looks undeniably safe to unban is , though it may take quite some time before WotC, and the community itself, gets over it's heavy bias against and acknowledges that the card just isn't as bonkers as The made it out to be.
I would like to see the unban of the troll too but do you think is safe with Bridge from Below around, i know Dread Return is banned but Troll and bridge together are still not safe.
We have Unburial Rites after all: similar to legacy but slower... in a slower format!
It would worth trying the simultaneous unbannig of the troll and the banning of the bridge imo.
- L
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"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
I would like to see the unban of the troll too but do you think is safe with Bridge from Below around, i know Dread Return is banned but Troll and bridge together are still not safe.
We have Unburial Rites after all: similar to legacy but slower... in a slower format!
It would worth trying the simultaneous unbannig of the troll and the banning of the bridge imo.
- L
I don't really see Unburial Rites as a part of a Golgari Grave-Troll deck. With all the dredging such a deck would probably be doing four mana seems like a pipe dream and an easily derailed one at that.
Bridge is much more reliant on Nacromoeba to really do anything worthy of note and then only if there are relevant sacrifice outlets to make it work. One such outlet that comes to mind is Greater Gargadon but honestly seeing something like that would still probably be worth it. Besides, what's the point of banning a card that practically sees no play in the format? Is it because of The Fear?
About Birthing Pod: I don't discuss/advocate bannings as a rule so I would give it the benefit of the doubt before I started bashing it.
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
I do think Birthing Pod's in serious danger of being banned in the next two or three ban list updates. Even if it isn't necessarily deserving of a ban, its longevity as the cornerstone of a competitive deck makes it too visible of a target for the DCI. They won't openly admit it, but the DCI chooses cards to ban based on prolonged performance of a given deck, as a way to "shake up" the format by systematically killing off certain decks and potentially reviving others as a way to create the feel of an ever-changing "rotation" while still presenting a larger card pool.
Plus, banning Pod just seems in line with the kind of knuckle-dragger train of thought the DCI employs in this format.
I don't think Birthing Pod should be banned, nor anything for that matter unless it's absolutely necessary, but I can see it possibly being banned if it performs well.
I think Pod players should owe Scavenging Ooze a great deal of gratitude, since its release more so than DRS kepted it in check. Now with the deck that preyed on Melira Pod on the decline it has the potential to dominant the meta just enough to be hit.
With this ban list announcement I think it's apparent that WotC intends to use the list as Modern's version of rotation, but not as frequent or predictable. Business wise it makes perfect sense, since they are not going to make as much profit from players sitting on existing proven decks compared to someone who constantly switches to new decks or has multiple.
Modern isn't Legacy, and its the only format where you hope your deck doesn't win.
The only card that looks undeniably safe to unban is , though it may take quite some time before WotC, and the community itself, gets over it's heavy bias against and acknowledges that the card just isn't as bonkers as The made it out to be.
I would like to see the unban of the troll too but do you think is safe with Bridge from Below around, i know Dread Return is banned but Troll and bridge together are still not safe.
We have Unburial Rites after all: similar to legacy but slower... in a slower format!
It would worth trying the simultaneous unbannig of the troll and the banning of the bridge imo.
- L
How is turn 4 Reanimation in any way, shape, or form broken? Also, how are you creating the Zombies without Dread Return and Cabal Therapy?
jund is a deck, everyone playn modern, has on its radar, so they all have cards against this deck
in so many matchups DRS doesnt do that much, cause it gets handled pretty quick
and if he doesnt get handled, he does his job, be it acceleration / dmg / life... but from my experience its not soo bad, that it needed to be banned. i mean each card has its purpose and DRS aint some broken 2 card combo that wins the game turn 3 or 4. i was at GP prague, and allthough jund was the most played deck on this weekend, it didnt win. and to be honest, i cant remember when the last time jund was winning a GP.
people say, he does 4-8 dmg per game. actualy i think the average dmg per game is 4 (since it doesnt allways do that) its pretty much the same with wild nacatl...2 swings for 3 dmg is also alot for a 1 mana creature.
i am fine with the nacatl unban, since i never had problems playn vs zoo decks. the real unban, that i think shouldnt have been done, was bitterblossom. it generates so much advantage, that it is a joke, to ban DRS but unban this. i think this card is much more powerfull. and allthough it has a drawback, it is a way to strong card.
maybe we should think about ristrictions instead of bannings in modern.
Bitterblossom isn't nearly as good as it used to be. I'd much rather be playing Pod to be honest. Comparing nut draws, a turn two pod's going to generate more value at a faster rate than a turn two bitterblossom. There are so many good cards and hate for faeries that have been printed since the last heyday of faeries that it's a joke that BB was still on the banlist before the recent announcement. Also, BB requires you to build around it in some way. I would never consider putting it in any sort of good stuff like Jund deck since it's a terrible topdeck that generates no immediate value when you play it. Lingering Souls is a better and more efficient card if you want a token generator for your goodstuff deck.
BBE can stay on the list, Cascade is a fundamentally broken mechanic. When you play a BBE and cascade into a 3 mana spell, you basically get to play a Black Lotus and draw a relevant card that impacts the board. The 2 mana spells you can cascade into are just as good (Bob, Goyf) and some 1 mana ones are nothing to scoff at either (Bolt, Path). That's all in addition to a 3/2 haste creature.
I would love to see Ancestral Vision unbanned next, I understand why they are taking their time on it but I think it would give control more of a leg to stand on while not empowering any existing archetypes.
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Legacy W Death and Taxes W U Merfolk U GWR Enchantress GWR WUG BantWUG
Cascade on T4 isn't that broken in comparison to what the other decks in Modern can do, like Splinter Twin and Melira Pod. Cascade on T3 thanks to DRS and then revealing Liliana is a whole different story, but only possible if both Deathrite and Bloodbraid Elf are around.
It's nice to see that, judging at least from this thread, all the people that claimed that either Bitterblossom or Wild Nacatl unbanned would ruin modern seem to have quit the format ....
We should all talk about the elephant in the room that is pod, but I guess ppl won't say anything til after the PT and the pod dominance we will see there, unless there turns out to be a huge amount of oozes in the meta.
would a pod ban be enough to make your witchhunt come to an end or would that also require a Splinter Twin and possibly an UWR ban?
Because both those decks have won something in the past, which seems to be about the only thing that matters in a banning according to you.
And no, I don't think they should ban anything else than pod. UWR would only be a problem with vision. Twin just got owned by faeries IMO and wasn't even a problem to begin with.
I do think Birthing Pod's in serious danger of being banned in the next two or three ban list updates. Even if it isn't necessarily deserving of a ban, its longevity as the cornerstone of a competitive deck makes it too visible of a target for the DCI. They won't openly admit it, but the DCI chooses cards to ban based on prolonged performance of a given deck, as a way to "shake up" the format by systematically killing off certain decks and potentially reviving others as a way to create the feel of an ever-changing "rotation" while still presenting a larger card pool.
Plus, banning Pod just seems in line with the kind of knuckle-dragger train of thought the DCI employs in this format.
No no no no, wrong!!
Pod's massively overpowered as the repetible tutor he is. I've said it many times, it's legacy's survival of the fittest. It's way too good for the power level wizards seems to want the format to be at.
No, but it's a good guess given what we know. I believe WotC should be a bit more forward with the Modern community in regards to how it sees balance.
that's not true either. last last september, they unbanned valakut and everyone was like, hey! they're going to start unbanning cards. and we all know what happened there.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Valakut had no right being on the list to begin with, almost as paranoid and pointless as with Ancestral Vision.
As it stands now there isn't anything really deserving of a ban. Deathrite Shaman was arguably too good for Modern now, but I believe one to two more unbans this year would be good.
BBE can stay on the list, Cascade is a fundamentally broken mechanic. When you play a BBE and cascade into a 3 mana spell, you basically get to play a Black Lotus and draw a relevant card that impacts the board. The 2 mana spells you can cascade into are just as good (Bob, Goyf) and some 1 mana ones are nothing to scoff at either (Bolt, Path). That's all in addition to a 3/2 haste creature.
Here's the issue with your post. You claim that cascade is a fundamentally broken mechanic...but up until your final sentence, everything you just said was actually very subpar. How impressive is it to pay 4 mana to cast a Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant? And paying an extra mana for a Liliana of the Veil seems kinda weak. Sure, when you factor in Bloodbraid Elf (a 3/2 haster) into the equation, things get a lot more powerful, but the 3/2 hasted creature is not an inherent part of the Cascade mechanic.
Cascade by itself is fine. The problem is when it's attached to something that's already on or slightly behind the curve, like Bloodbraid Elf. No one cares at all about Ardent Plea or Demonic Dread (except for when they're being used to combo with Living End) because you're paying 3 mana to cast a 1- or 2-mana card, and all you get as a bonus is a pretty unimpressive ability. Oh yay, Exalted, that's sure worth paying an extra 1 or 2 mana to cast something.
Cascade's one of those weird to evaluate mechanics.
But at the very least, Cascade is worth 3 mana.
BBE is good because you get Cascade value + the 3/2 haste for an additional mana, the value there is outrageous and it's as though your turn 4 didn't just happen, it happened TWICE.
But that's just a baseline.
At 3 mana the intent is more to exploit Cascade for certain targets, like Shardless Agent flipping over AncVis.
Or LEnd's... well, everything.
Really, BBE is just a singularity of value. It can attack right off the bat, it usually comes with another spell stapled to it, and it comes down as early as turn 4 which is where critical plays tend to occur in Modern.
It's not exactly an abusive card but it does push the limits on how much value a card can produce before it's a bit unfair to the rest of the pool (which is a phenomenon we see very often in the ban list; Wizards is noticeably very uncomfortable with cards that push the envelope so far, I like to believe it's because there isn't enough to give a fair balance and avoid over-empowering only a few particular archetypes to the detriment of others), and so it's really up in the air as to whether or not it'll leave the banlist
Looking at some of these plays (that aren't really too magical christmasy) has me wondering if #7 below really is in a whole other league such that it deserves to be banned. You have ways to combat #7 just as you have ways to combat #1-6.
Doesn't seem too out of place here considering you can't use Deathrite to ramp into her anymore (yes I'm aware there are other dorks in the format). I do think they had better wait and see how the meta shakes out with all the upheaval that we are currently seeing, overreaction or not. I would have preferred they had chosen to either ban or unban and see where either one by itself took us. But what's done is done and I'm excited to see where the format goes from here.
With regards to the ban philosophy in general, I originally speculated Modern would start off as a Super Standard type format that would eventually become closer to Legacy Lite. As more and more sets entered the card pool it seemed inevitable that the cream of the crop would become Modern playables and that more decks and more interactions would emerge. But now we have what I perceive to be a non-oppressive, non-combo kill, pillar-of-the-format card banned in Modern before it even rotated out of Standard. Was it too efficient? The adjective "efficient" fits Deathrite Shaman without a doubt but the question I have is was it EXCESSIVELY so? My conclusion is that its not the card but the deck. They banned a pillar of the deck due to percentage of the metagame. The reason given for the ban was unsatisfying at best and I know that some of the above can/will be contested, but this ban has me thinking I was wrong concerning the development of the Modern format.
I don't subscribe to the "sky-is-falling, DTB = deck to ban, rotation via banlist" mania that I feel has gripped some of the community, but I am troubled by this ban. I didn't think that Deathrite Shaman was critically more powerful than many of the other staples in the format. I understand that a huge percentage of the meta at tournaments ran him, but you don't have too look very far to find other near-omnipresent staples that can be considered pinnacles of efficiency. Rather than make adjustments in upcoming sets that hate on DRS, weaken decks that use him, or strengthen things that prey on decks that use him, DRS was just banned. It does make me question what will be banned in the future. Look at things like Snapcaster Mage and Birthing Pod which should only become more powerful and have greater utility as the instant/sorcery and creature pool grows. I don't see how anyone is confident in these cards or any others that even slightly push the envenlope remaining legal.
1) Turn 3 Karn Liberated
2) Turn 3 EOT Pestermite followed by Turn 4 Splinter Twin
3) Turn 1 Robots hand dump.
4) Turn 3 Birthing Pod followed by just about anything.
5) Turn 2 Leonin Arbiter followed by cracking a Ghost Quarter
6) Turn 3 EOT Gifts Ungiven putting Unburial Rites and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the yard.
You actually mean turn 2 pod and t4 gifts, and pod would be the only comparable thing to BBE's powerlevel, the rest doesn't make sense for the topic at hand. You're not taking into account multiples, topdeck battles, and the implications of those plays being answered / countered.
So Twin winning on T4 and T3 Karn setting you back a land isn't comparable to both Bloodbraid Elf and Birthing Pod. Also, using your reasoning BBE can also be answered just the same as the things listed above, so what makes it worse?
Says the person who wants Jace in the format and for BBE to be banned forever.
The original comparison is more of what the those decks as whole are capable on T4 and lower, not those plays in particular. Sure both can be answered at a cost, but how often does BBE cascade into Liliana? My guess is probably the same amount of times as T3 Karn. Bloodbraid Elf is just a good card among many in Modern, banned to lower Jund's performance to keep a card still in print legal and selling. If Jund slips in performance than why should it remained banned? Last time I check it was relatively agreed upon that DRS switched with BBE was a good idea, and having it unban would open the door to Jace returning, something that you want.
Looking at some of these plays (that aren't really too magical christmasy) has me wondering if #7 below really is in a whole other league such that it deserves to be banned. You have ways to combat #7 just as you have ways to combat #1-6.
Jund doesn't roll over and die to LD, or one of its creatures getting removed, or board wipes, or artifact hate, or grave hate, or a discard spell, or a counterspell. Unlike most of the other decks up there.
BBE could come back if Zoo remains tier 2 after Nacatl (unlikely) or if you could convince them that no tier 1 deck would play it (also unlikely). Really, just look at the previous unbans, and where the decks were before that:
Valakut: Scapeshift didn't even exist before Valakut's unban
Zoo: All variants were tier 2 before Nacatl's unban
Faeries: Was tier 3 before BB's unban
BBE could come back if Zoo remains tier 2 after Nacatl (unlikely) or if you could convince them that no tier 1 deck would play it (also unlikely). Really, just look at the previous unbans, and where the decks were before that:
Valakut: Scapeshift didn't even exist before Valakut's unban
Zoo: All variants were tier 2 before Nacatl's unban
Faeries: Was tier 3 before BB's unban
By your logic cards such as Ancestral Visions, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic and Green Sun's Zenith can never be unbanned because they will all just go into existing tier1 decks.
Also, hypothetically if banning DRS had the same effect as Wild Nacatl with Zoo in making Jund fall to tier2, shouldn't Bloodbraid Elf be unbanned then?
By your logic cards such as Ancestral Visions, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic and Green Sun's Zenith can never be unbanned because they will all just go into existing tier1 decks.
Also, hypothetically if banning DRS had the same effect as Wild Nacatl with Zoo in making Jund fall to tier2, shouldn't Bloodbraid Elf be unbanned then?
Yes. Seriously. I'm not a spokesman for the DCI but I sincerely believe that is how they do things. If it will boost a deck that's already tier 1.5 or above, it won't be unbanned. I have no great desire to see them back anyway (well, except maybe for GSZ, which is sweet in Elves).
AV, Jace will just go into UWR.
SFM will go into Zoo. (Really not a good idea.)
GSZ, Zoo also. Maybe Tron too. RG 12Post had GSZ in it.
Whether BBE comes back depends on whether a top deck can play it. If BBE will help Jund, and Jund only (it's in Zoo colors, btw), AND if Jund drops to tier 2 after DRS, then yes, it could come off.
I see a lot of people throwing a potential JTMS unban around. While I'm mostly in favor of unbanings, this one I feel should be taken with a serious grain of salt. Saying that will be OK to unban Jace (a bonkers good card) if we unban BBE (yet another bonkers good card) isn't exactly helping either card's case.
We are still in the aftermath of the previous announcement so I don't think it's prudent to advocate any unban just yet. However, I have to ask, for the sake of argument, what kind of an impact would a Jace, the Mind Sculptor unban have on Modern? Which decks would it improve? What strategies would it obsolete? Is unbaning him even a priority at this point?
If you asked me, we will have to wait at least two weeks before we can begin answering any one of these questions. What do you guys think?
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In my dream, the world had suffered a terrible disaster. A black haze shut out the sun, and the darkness was alive with the moans and screams of wounded people. Suddenly, a small light glowed. A candle flickered into life, symbol of hope for millions. A single tiny candle, shining in the ugly dark. I laughed and blew it out.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
1) Turn 3 Karn Liberated
2) Turn 3 EOT Pestermite followed by Turn 4 Splinter Twin
3) Turn 1 Robots hand dump.
4) Turn 3 Birthing Pod followed by just about anything.
5) Turn 2 Leonin Arbiter followed by cracking a Ghost Quarter
6) Turn 3 EOT Gifts Ungiven putting Unburial Rites and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the yard.
You actually mean turn 2 pod and t4 gifts, and pod would be the only comparable thing to BBE's powerlevel, the rest doesn't make sense for the topic at hand. You're not taking into account multiples, topdeck battles, and the implications of those plays being answered / countered.
You are correct in that I did mean turn 2 pod. But if you can turn 2 pod you can turn 3 EOT gifts. Some of those gifts decks are running birds and/or caryatid. Jund obviously has disruptive turns 1-3 with which to follow up with BBE, but the other decks above are not exactly sitting around doing nothing for those turns either (if they even care what you're doing at all).
I'm not a jund player. I play gifts, pod, and delver. I just think that with the powerful plays tht many decks have available, BBE into goyf or Lilly is not a head and shoulders above them. Any one piece of jund probably never deserved a ban, it's just that jund had too high a percentage of the best goodstuff cards. At least in wizards' view (and many others in this community).
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I would like to see the unban of the troll too but do you think is safe with Bridge from Below around, i know Dread Return is banned but Troll and bridge together are still not safe.
We have Unburial Rites after all: similar to legacy but slower... in a slower format!
It would worth trying the simultaneous unbannig of the troll and the banning of the bridge imo.
- L
"The problem isn't when Scissors says Rock is overpowered, it's when Paper says it is."
-Mark Rosewater
I don't really see Unburial Rites as a part of a Golgari Grave-Troll deck. With all the dredging such a deck would probably be doing four mana seems like a pipe dream and an easily derailed one at that.
Bridge is much more reliant on Nacromoeba to really do anything worthy of note and then only if there are relevant sacrifice outlets to make it work. One such outlet that comes to mind is Greater Gargadon but honestly seeing something like that would still probably be worth it. Besides, what's the point of banning a card that practically sees no play in the format? Is it because of The Fear?
About Birthing Pod: I don't discuss/advocate bannings as a rule so I would give it the benefit of the doubt before I started bashing it.
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
Plus, banning Pod just seems in line with the kind of knuckle-dragger train of thought the DCI employs in this format.
I think Pod players should owe Scavenging Ooze a great deal of gratitude, since its release more so than DRS kepted it in check. Now with the deck that preyed on Melira Pod on the decline it has the potential to dominant the meta just enough to be hit.
With this ban list announcement I think it's apparent that WotC intends to use the list as Modern's version of rotation, but not as frequent or predictable. Business wise it makes perfect sense, since they are not going to make as much profit from players sitting on existing proven decks compared to someone who constantly switches to new decks or has multiple.
Modern isn't Legacy, and its the only format where you hope your deck doesn't win.
How is turn 4 Reanimation in any way, shape, or form broken? Also, how are you creating the Zombies without Dread Return and Cabal Therapy?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Bitterblossom isn't nearly as good as it used to be. I'd much rather be playing Pod to be honest. Comparing nut draws, a turn two pod's going to generate more value at a faster rate than a turn two bitterblossom. There are so many good cards and hate for faeries that have been printed since the last heyday of faeries that it's a joke that BB was still on the banlist before the recent announcement. Also, BB requires you to build around it in some way. I would never consider putting it in any sort of good stuff like Jund deck since it's a terrible topdeck that generates no immediate value when you play it. Lingering Souls is a better and more efficient card if you want a token generator for your goodstuff deck.
Currently Playing and/or Building:
Legacy:
BUG Shardless BUG BUG
BUG Team America BUG
UBRG Cabal ANT UBRG
I would love to see Ancestral Vision unbanned next, I understand why they are taking their time on it but I think it would give control more of a leg to stand on while not empowering any existing archetypes.
W Death and Taxes W
U Merfolk U
GWR Enchantress GWR
WUG BantWUG
No, but it's a good guess given what we know. I believe WotC should be a bit more forward with the Modern community in regards to how it sees balance.
Well, there's still Nacatl but that's only one deck. And it used fetches anyway or Goyf and KotR
Speaking of which, what is the best Zoo build? Naya or 5-color?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=15e77zVe2BM
Maybe you like this pro better.
And no, I don't think they should ban anything else than pod. UWR would only be a problem with vision. Twin just got owned by faeries IMO and wasn't even a problem to begin with.
No no no no, wrong!!
Pod's massively overpowered as the repetible tutor he is. I've said it many times, it's legacy's survival of the fittest. It's way too good for the power level wizards seems to want the format to be at.
that's not true either. last last september, they unbanned valakut and everyone was like, hey! they're going to start unbanning cards. and we all know what happened there.
As it stands now there isn't anything really deserving of a ban. Deathrite Shaman was arguably too good for Modern now, but I believe one to two more unbans this year would be good.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Here's the issue with your post. You claim that cascade is a fundamentally broken mechanic...but up until your final sentence, everything you just said was actually very subpar. How impressive is it to pay 4 mana to cast a Tarmogoyf or Dark Confidant? And paying an extra mana for a Liliana of the Veil seems kinda weak. Sure, when you factor in Bloodbraid Elf (a 3/2 haster) into the equation, things get a lot more powerful, but the 3/2 hasted creature is not an inherent part of the Cascade mechanic.
Cascade by itself is fine. The problem is when it's attached to something that's already on or slightly behind the curve, like Bloodbraid Elf. No one cares at all about Ardent Plea or Demonic Dread (except for when they're being used to combo with Living End) because you're paying 3 mana to cast a 1- or 2-mana card, and all you get as a bonus is a pretty unimpressive ability. Oh yay, Exalted, that's sure worth paying an extra 1 or 2 mana to cast something.
But at the very least, Cascade is worth 3 mana.
BBE is good because you get Cascade value + the 3/2 haste for an additional mana, the value there is outrageous and it's as though your turn 4 didn't just happen, it happened TWICE.
But that's just a baseline.
At 3 mana the intent is more to exploit Cascade for certain targets, like Shardless Agent flipping over AncVis.
Or LEnd's... well, everything.
Really, BBE is just a singularity of value. It can attack right off the bat, it usually comes with another spell stapled to it, and it comes down as early as turn 4 which is where critical plays tend to occur in Modern.
It's not exactly an abusive card but it does push the limits on how much value a card can produce before it's a bit unfair to the rest of the pool (which is a phenomenon we see very often in the ban list; Wizards is noticeably very uncomfortable with cards that push the envelope so far, I like to believe it's because there isn't enough to give a fair balance and avoid over-empowering only a few particular archetypes to the detriment of others), and so it's really up in the air as to whether or not it'll leave the banlist
.
1) Turn 3 Karn Liberated
2) Turn 3 EOT Pestermite followed by Turn 4 Splinter Twin
3) Turn 1 Robots hand dump.
4) Turn 3 Birthing Pod followed by just about anything.
5) Turn 2 Leonin Arbiter followed by cracking a Ghost Quarter
6) Turn 3 EOT Gifts Ungiven putting Unburial Rites and Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite in the yard.
Looking at some of these plays (that aren't really too magical christmasy) has me wondering if #7 below really is in a whole other league such that it deserves to be banned. You have ways to combat #7 just as you have ways to combat #1-6.
7) Turn 4 Bloodbraid Elf revealing Tarmogoyf
Doesn't seem too out of place here considering you can't use Deathrite to ramp into her anymore (yes I'm aware there are other dorks in the format). I do think they had better wait and see how the meta shakes out with all the upheaval that we are currently seeing, overreaction or not. I would have preferred they had chosen to either ban or unban and see where either one by itself took us. But what's done is done and I'm excited to see where the format goes from here.
With regards to the ban philosophy in general, I originally speculated Modern would start off as a Super Standard type format that would eventually become closer to Legacy Lite. As more and more sets entered the card pool it seemed inevitable that the cream of the crop would become Modern playables and that more decks and more interactions would emerge. But now we have what I perceive to be a non-oppressive, non-combo kill, pillar-of-the-format card banned in Modern before it even rotated out of Standard. Was it too efficient? The adjective "efficient" fits Deathrite Shaman without a doubt but the question I have is was it EXCESSIVELY so? My conclusion is that its not the card but the deck. They banned a pillar of the deck due to percentage of the metagame. The reason given for the ban was unsatisfying at best and I know that some of the above can/will be contested, but this ban has me thinking I was wrong concerning the development of the Modern format.
I don't subscribe to the "sky-is-falling, DTB = deck to ban, rotation via banlist" mania that I feel has gripped some of the community, but I am troubled by this ban. I didn't think that Deathrite Shaman was critically more powerful than many of the other staples in the format. I understand that a huge percentage of the meta at tournaments ran him, but you don't have too look very far to find other near-omnipresent staples that can be considered pinnacles of efficiency. Rather than make adjustments in upcoming sets that hate on DRS, weaken decks that use him, or strengthen things that prey on decks that use him, DRS was just banned. It does make me question what will be banned in the future. Look at things like Snapcaster Mage and Birthing Pod which should only become more powerful and have greater utility as the instant/sorcery and creature pool grows. I don't see how anyone is confident in these cards or any others that even slightly push the envenlope remaining legal.
So Twin winning on T4 and T3 Karn setting you back a land isn't comparable to both Bloodbraid Elf and Birthing Pod. Also, using your reasoning BBE can also be answered just the same as the things listed above, so what makes it worse?
The original comparison is more of what the those decks as whole are capable on T4 and lower, not those plays in particular. Sure both can be answered at a cost, but how often does BBE cascade into Liliana? My guess is probably the same amount of times as T3 Karn. Bloodbraid Elf is just a good card among many in Modern, banned to lower Jund's performance to keep a card still in print legal and selling. If Jund slips in performance than why should it remained banned? Last time I check it was relatively agreed upon that DRS switched with BBE was a good idea, and having it unban would open the door to Jace returning, something that you want.
Jund doesn't roll over and die to LD, or one of its creatures getting removed, or board wipes, or artifact hate, or grave hate, or a discard spell, or a counterspell. Unlike most of the other decks up there.
BBE could come back if Zoo remains tier 2 after Nacatl (unlikely) or if you could convince them that no tier 1 deck would play it (also unlikely). Really, just look at the previous unbans, and where the decks were before that:
Valakut: Scapeshift didn't even exist before Valakut's unban
Zoo: All variants were tier 2 before Nacatl's unban
Faeries: Was tier 3 before BB's unban
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
By your logic cards such as Ancestral Visions, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Stoneforge Mystic and Green Sun's Zenith can never be unbanned because they will all just go into existing tier1 decks.
Also, hypothetically if banning DRS had the same effect as Wild Nacatl with Zoo in making Jund fall to tier2, shouldn't Bloodbraid Elf be unbanned then?
Yes. Seriously. I'm not a spokesman for the DCI but I sincerely believe that is how they do things. If it will boost a deck that's already tier 1.5 or above, it won't be unbanned. I have no great desire to see them back anyway (well, except maybe for GSZ, which is sweet in Elves).
AV, Jace will just go into UWR.
SFM will go into Zoo. (Really not a good idea.)
GSZ, Zoo also. Maybe Tron too. RG 12Post had GSZ in it.
Whether BBE comes back depends on whether a top deck can play it. If BBE will help Jund, and Jund only (it's in Zoo colors, btw), AND if Jund drops to tier 2 after DRS, then yes, it could come off.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
We are still in the aftermath of the previous announcement so I don't think it's prudent to advocate any unban just yet. However, I have to ask, for the sake of argument, what kind of an impact would a Jace, the Mind Sculptor unban have on Modern? Which decks would it improve? What strategies would it obsolete? Is unbaning him even a priority at this point?
If you asked me, we will have to wait at least two weeks before we can begin answering any one of these questions. What do you guys think?
Many thanks to HotP Studios. Special thanks to DNC for this great sig.
You are correct in that I did mean turn 2 pod. But if you can turn 2 pod you can turn 3 EOT gifts. Some of those gifts decks are running birds and/or caryatid. Jund obviously has disruptive turns 1-3 with which to follow up with BBE, but the other decks above are not exactly sitting around doing nothing for those turns either (if they even care what you're doing at all).
I'm not a jund player. I play gifts, pod, and delver. I just think that with the powerful plays tht many decks have available, BBE into goyf or Lilly is not a head and shoulders above them. Any one piece of jund probably never deserved a ban, it's just that jund had too high a percentage of the best goodstuff cards. At least in wizards' view (and many others in this community).