"Hmm, land, land and a removal spell, tough call. There is a threat on the field, I better think about this for like three minutes, all the while
making it seem like it's a tough decision."
or play smallpox and hit 4 things at once. LD is a bit anemic in modern we need something like sinkhole. However there are times I would leave the threat on the table, like if you didn't play an other land that turn, and destroying that land keeps you off a key play. I can take a little damage and deal with it next turn.
on topic
Anyways the banned list is too big, and top is no where as bad as an offender as eggs. I think dark depths would be fun it can kill turn three so its just a tad faster than the turn 4 rule, but I bet most the time espically the thespian stage version will be turn 4 kills. I don't think its worse than any other combo in the format. Plus the turn 3 kill requires 3 cards.
Oh dear god, if only it where so easy. Here, let me run you though my thoughts playing the card in Painter. (combo control.)
What do I need?
Do I want the protection or the combo card?
How many cards does he have in hand?
How much mana can I bring in against soft permission?
How many counters has he used?
How has he been playing the game?
Can I win this turn though disruption?
If I shuffle, what percentage do I have of finding a card I need? (Yes, you do math with this card.)
If I put it on top, does he have instant speed removal?
Will I be tight on mana for the next two turns? If so, how will I play out the next two turns with this information? How should I put the cards back?
Should I prioritise a fetch?
Land, Land Removal is the simplest possible way of looking at the card. Top gives options, options mean critical thinking. If all your doing is looming at 3 cards and going "Oh this one" Then your playing the card wrong.
I actually think Top would be fine. Of course, we don't have brainstorm to shuffle back in Entreat the Angels, but I'm sure we'd figure something out. The mere fact that Entreat would now be playable gives Control a quick kill option it really doesn't have (let's discount WSZ...), which more than makes up for any time Top would 'add'. Plus, you know, Countertop Miracles would be fun to play and it would give us another viable control shell besides UWR. Also, Top isn't like Second Sunrise where the player will take ~5-15 more minutes after time to take their 3 turns. A whole archetype and card has to be neutered / banned because people can't wait +1-5 minutes beyond 50 minutes (assuming this would be the case)? I'd love to play Entreat as a win-con, but without Top...yeah sure.
The issue is not that it adds 10 minutes to a single turn, it's that it adds 30 seconds to 25 turns over a 3 game match. Add in another player running it...
Strange there's a discussion about top's time issues again. If there wasn't an issue with it, it wouldn't be banned. The problem is that you never know if a person is really thinking through his options, or that he's trying to force a draw by thinking longer than needed.
Top will never be unbanned if only for that reason. So why test it?
Oh dear god, if only it where so easy. Here, let me run you though my thoughts playing the card in Painter. (combo control.)
What do I need?
Do I want the protection or the combo card?
How many cards does he have in hand?
How much mana can I bring in against soft permission?
How many counters has he used?
How has he been playing the game?
Can I win this turn though disruption?
If I shuffle, what percentage do I have of finding a card I need? (Yes, you do math with this card.)
If I put it on top, does he have instant speed removal?
Will I be tight on mana for the next two turns? If so, how will I play out the next two turns with this information? How should I put the cards back?
Should I prioritise a fetch?
Land, Land Removal is the simplest possible way of looking at the card. Top gives options, options mean critical thinking. If all your doing is looming at 3 cards and going "Oh this one" Then your playing the card wrong.
I think this post is a good example of why I'll never trust the testing results of random people over the internet. Different people will play the same cards in very different ways.
If top's banning is a time consideration, why isn't it banned in Legacy? I think the card itself is a little more powerful than Wizards wants the format to be.
If top's banning is a time consideration, why isn't it banned in Legacy? I think the card itself is a little more powerful than Wizards wants the format to be.
Brainstorm. Blue decks have access to this. Why not give non-blue decks access to this type of ability? (I know it's not the same; but it's the closest non-blue will get.) And yes, I know that Miracles plays both (probably a reason the deck is so consistent).
Top's banning is not completely because of time consideration. That's the reason for Second Sunrise. Top would also be pretty darn powerful and Top/Counterbalance would be too good for Modern, so it is a mixture of power and time. In Legacy, there are just too many powerful things going on to ban some random card just because of time. Whenever someone says that something should be banned in Legacy, I just think to myself, "is it more powerful than Show and Tell/Emrakul?" That being said, I'm pretty sure that if a high percentage of people played Miracles in Legacy and there were time problems, there would at least be talk of banning Top.
If I misread your comment and you're essentially saying the same thing, then this explanation goes for anyone who thinks Top should be let in.
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Top is less prevalent in legacy than it would be in modern which helps it to not cause as bad of time problems. In a format where delver says you'll never have a spare mana to spin top and combo decks say that doesn't pitch to force only miracles really runs it. In modern you have a lot more time and mana. A lot of decks would run it.
The main problem with Top in Modern is, that nearly every deck would start playing it, because it is the only way to generate constant CQ for a little effort and this for every deck, which is something Wizard don't want (you can see this at the Ponder/Preodain banning). If it was legal I would bet that around 60% of the Meta would play it and the other 40% are Aggro decks, or decks which don't need it, so no Top for Modern
Greetings,
Kathal
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
The fact that top is banned in modern for 'time restrictions' while not being banned in legacy is a good and relevant point I think.
Making unsubstantiated speculations on metagame % etc are fairly unhelpful I think (partially because I see them as largely exaggerated) as we really can't know these things without seeing it in the meta.
The issue is not that it adds 10 minutes to a single turn, it's that it adds 30 seconds to 25 turns over a 3 game match. Add in another player running it...
The major difference here is that adding 30s to every turn is far far less offensive than adding 5-10minutes to even a few turns, because the more turns the opponent has to play, the more chances they have to win, and the less likely the game is to go to time.
Regardless, if top deserves the modern ban due to time considerations I can't see how it is any better in legacy. Even if more decks would run it in modern, the fact that it is played in legacy and doesn't cause enough issues to warrant a ban there, makes me think that perhaps it is worthy of consideration for unbanning.
For all I know top isn't safe for the format, but I think a few good point have been raised here in its defense, while the counter-argument generally doesn't amount to more than "eh it's top, it will never get unbanned so don't bother considering it" or "it's not overpowered in the format, it just causes time issues".
I, like a lot of people, believe the banned list is bloated, so I think cards like top that might be fine for the format (it's not something like MM or SFM), that have never been given a real chance in the format should be given one. We really can't know if top causes time issues without testing it in the format, and I do think it strange it was originally banned seeing as it doesn't cause issues in legacy.
I wanted to skip this, but looks like I don't get to. So here is the whys of why top is not banned in legacy.
Force of Will. Get that? Force is the reason top is not banned. Because you can't pitch top to force, but you can Ponder, Preordain and Brainstorm. Also, top on its own offers limited ability to look for cards. When it is just one card in your deck, maybe as a 4 of, your not going to see it as much as 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder.
Also, Ponder let's you shuffle, Brainstorm is busted as and Preordain gets rid of the cards you don't want. Top let's you... Oh Yea, stare at the three until you find a way to shuffle.
Lastly, the formats are a world apart. Top goes into decks that either need constant deck manipulation (Miracles) or are not blue but still play control (Painter). Top does not go into everything in the format, not because it's not good enough, but it normally clashes with the plan. The decks that want manipulation have it in blue, the others have Sylvan Library. Top therefore is left to the few remaining decks that need it. Everyone else has a different line of play and would see the reduction of the decks effectiveness with the addition of the card.
Now let's look at modern. We have Slight of Hand, Visions and what else really to play with the library? Not a whole lot. Add onto that the speed reduction of the format. I don't just mean the 4 turn rule, I mean the saturation of decks that plan for a longer game and fight to push the game there. Combo could use the card in modern, but I am thinking more Jund, UWr and Tron as decks that could use this card. Adding time to what already can be very long games.
Now please, before anyone thinks comparisons between Legacy and Modern are a good idea, think about this, Legacy has about 5500 more cards in its pool than Modern, of that it has a ton of past mistakes and stuff ups. It also plays a much stronger power level. It's like comparing an FTO to a GT40. No way is it fair, and the guy with the FTO is going to lose out everytime due to his lack of power and his lack of respect to history.
I wanted to skip this, but looks like I don't get to. So here is the whys of why top is not banned in legacy.
Force of Will. Get that? Force is the reason top is not banned. Because you can't pitch top to force, but you can Ponder, Preordain and Brainstorm. Also, top on its own offers limited ability to look for cards. When it is just one card in your deck, maybe as a 4 of, your not going to see it as much as 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder.
Also, Ponder let's you shuffle, Brainstorm is busted as and Preordain gets rid of the cards you don't want. Top let's you... Oh Yea, stare at the three until you find a way to shuffle.
Lastly, the formats are a world apart. Top goes into decks that either need constant deck manipulation (Miracles) or are not blue but still play control (Painter). Top does not go into everything in the format, not because it's not good enough, but it normally clashes with the plan. The decks that want manipulation have it in blue, the others have Sylvan Library. Top therefore is left to the few remaining decks that need it. Everyone else has a different line of play and would see the reduction of the decks effectiveness with the addition of the card.
Now let's look at modern. We have Slight of Hand, Visions and what else really to play with the library? Not a whole lot. Add onto that the speed reduction of the format. I don't just mean the 4 turn rule, I mean the saturation of decks that plan for a longer game and fight to push the game there. Combo could use the card in modern, but I am thinking more Jund, UWr and Tron as decks that could use this card. Adding time to what already can be very long games.
Now please, before anyone thinks comparisons between Legacy and Modern are a good idea, think about this, Legacy has about 5500 more cards in its pool than Modern, of that it has a ton of past mistakes and stuff ups. It also plays a much stronger power level. It's like comparing an FTO to a GT40. No way is it fair, and the guy with the FTO is going to lose out everytime due to his lack of power and his lack of respect to history.
Sure, top doesn't see as much play as it might otherwise due to FoW and better deck manipulation, but so what? Blue based decks that want deck manipulation are also more central to the legacy metagame than modern.
Top does still get played in legacy decks such as miracles, where it apparently doesn't cause time issues.
I agree, comparisons between legacy and modern are not desirable (though slightly more relevant when it comes to issues such as time), however, what useful comparison can we draw to modern when it comes to top? There is none, so what proof do we have that it would be bad for the format? All anyone here is going off is gut-feelings, and irrational fears of banned cards.
I'm not saying I know that top wouldn't cause time issues or be over-centralising in the format, however I do know we have no useful or relevant data supporting its place on the banlist, I have not heard any convincing arguments backing up its place on the banlist, and I have very little faith in wizards' original banlist.
It's not a gut fear, it's a side effect of the way the format is designed. There is nothing better than Top to do its job in a format like Modern, therefore, it would take top spot and it's effects would be felt. If the format had Ponder and Preordain, then Top would be fine. At that point it's effects are likely to be minimal as only Jund, Tron and other non blue midrange would care about it. Everyone else would have the Blue based manipulation. But without those cards, everyone flocks to the one card they have access to and it would push time issues.
A whole bunch of one off effects are actually better for time than the repeatable one overall. If Ponder and Preordain got themselves unbanned, then Top can have my vote. While Top would be the only option though, no, it's going to stay a problem.
If top's banning is a time consideration, why isn't it banned in Legacy? I think the card itself is a little more powerful than Wizards wants the format to be.
Brainstorm. Blue decks have access to this. Why not give non-blue decks access to this type of ability? (I know it's not the same; but it's the closest non-blue will get.) And yes, I know that Miracles plays both (probably a reason the deck is so consistent).
Top's banning is not completely because of time consideration. That's the reason for Second Sunrise. Top would also be pretty darn powerful and Top/Counterbalance would be too good for Modern, so it is a mixture of power and time. In Legacy, there are just too many powerful things going on to ban some random card just because of time. Whenever someone says that something should be banned in Legacy, I just think to myself, "is it more powerful than Show and Tell/Emrakul?" That being said, I'm pretty sure that if a high percentage of people played Miracles in Legacy and there were time problems, there would at least be talk of banning Top.
If I misread your comment and you're essentially saying the same thing, then this explanation goes for anyone who thinks Top should be let in.
Yeah, we're on the same page. I was saying Top isn't just banned in Modern because of time (because if it was, it'd be banned in other formats for the same reason) and that it had a lot more to do with power level, which Modern can't respond to as well as some decks in Legacy can.
If top's banning is a time consideration, why isn't it banned in Legacy? I think the card itself is a little more powerful than Wizards wants the format to be.
Brainstorm. Blue decks have access to this. Why not give non-blue decks access to this type of ability? (I know it's not the same; but it's the closest non-blue will get.) And yes, I know that Miracles plays both (probably a reason the deck is so consistent).
Top's banning is not completely because of time consideration. That's the reason for Second Sunrise. Top would also be pretty darn powerful and Top/Counterbalance would be too good for Modern, so it is a mixture of power and time. In Legacy, there are just too many powerful things going on to ban some random card just because of time. Whenever someone says that something should be banned in Legacy, I just think to myself, "is it more powerful than Show and Tell/Emrakul?" That being said, I'm pretty sure that if a high percentage of people played Miracles in Legacy and there were time problems, there would at least be talk of banning Top.
If I misread your comment and you're essentially saying the same thing, then this explanation goes for anyone who thinks Top should be let in.
Yeah, we're on the same page. I was saying Top isn't just banned in Modern because of time (because if it was, it'd be banned in other formats for the same reason) and that it had a lot more to do with power level, which Modern can't respond to as well as some decks in Legacy can.
I too believe this is corrrect. I just think that Top should at least get some testing.
So does anyone want to test if Top would be too good (disregarding the time issues temporarily)?
What shell you thinking? I reason a W/Ux shell running Miracles and some number of other control aspects could be useful.
But what will it prove? At the end of the day it and Second Sunrise are unlikely to see unbanings regardless of how safe they are.
I posted a similar response to this earlier on the thread so here goes:
The problem with Eggs was that the one turn the player went off would take a very long time. Top just adds a little time each turn. Even with players like Joe Lossett playing miracles in legacy the SCG Open's are never too far behind schedule. So I think top, while it is unlikely, could come back.
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Freedom is slavery!
Ignorance is strength!
I think that Top deserves some amount of testing. I think it would be a powerful card, but it would not destroy the game. Also, it would give control decks some nice tool to play with (Counterbalance is pretty good with Top I heard).
The real issue is time here. A lot of Modern decks already spend a lot of time shuffling because of fetches, and I'm afraid that adding Top to the equation means trouble.
I've seen people complain about the time needed to activate a fetchland, but what would happen if it went "activate Top, think, sacrifice fetchland, activate Top again, think"?
I would not hate that scenario, but it could get boring fast for the player who is not playing Top.
I'm fairly sure that this is not what Wizards want to happen in Modern.
Looking to legacy which has access to double the fetches and wasteland as the only reason to run any basics, the SCG Open tournaments usually end at a reasonable time. While Top does add time due to extensive decisions I think it would be manageable. It would also be nice to have a true control deck in the format rather than UWR flash/burn which currently fills that role.
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Freedom is slavery!
Ignorance is strength!
if you really are suggesting top to come off the list then we can also welcome punishing fire back because it creates even less absurd environment with groves than top does with miracles and counterbalance.
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or play smallpox and hit 4 things at once. LD is a bit anemic in modern we need something like sinkhole. However there are times I would leave the threat on the table, like if you didn't play an other land that turn, and destroying that land keeps you off a key play. I can take a little damage and deal with it next turn.
on topic
Anyways the banned list is too big, and top is no where as bad as an offender as eggs. I think dark depths would be fun it can kill turn three so its just a tad faster than the turn 4 rule, but I bet most the time espically the thespian stage version will be turn 4 kills. I don't think its worse than any other combo in the format. Plus the turn 3 kill requires 3 cards.
I loathe creatures! Praise Prison and Land Destruction!
My Peasant Cube (looking for feedback)
What do I need?
Do I want the protection or the combo card?
How many cards does he have in hand?
How much mana can I bring in against soft permission?
How many counters has he used?
How has he been playing the game?
Can I win this turn though disruption?
If I shuffle, what percentage do I have of finding a card I need? (Yes, you do math with this card.)
If I put it on top, does he have instant speed removal?
Will I be tight on mana for the next two turns? If so, how will I play out the next two turns with this information? How should I put the cards back?
Should I prioritise a fetch?
Land, Land Removal is the simplest possible way of looking at the card. Top gives options, options mean critical thinking. If all your doing is looming at 3 cards and going "Oh this one" Then your playing the card wrong.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Top will never be unbanned if only for that reason. So why test it?
I think this post is a good example of why I'll never trust the testing results of random people over the internet. Different people will play the same cards in very different ways.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
Brainstorm. Blue decks have access to this. Why not give non-blue decks access to this type of ability? (I know it's not the same; but it's the closest non-blue will get.) And yes, I know that Miracles plays both (probably a reason the deck is so consistent).
Top's banning is not completely because of time consideration. That's the reason for Second Sunrise. Top would also be pretty darn powerful and Top/Counterbalance would be too good for Modern, so it is a mixture of power and time. In Legacy, there are just too many powerful things going on to ban some random card just because of time. Whenever someone says that something should be banned in Legacy, I just think to myself, "is it more powerful than Show and Tell/Emrakul?" That being said, I'm pretty sure that if a high percentage of people played Miracles in Legacy and there were time problems, there would at least be talk of banning Top.
If I misread your comment and you're essentially saying the same thing, then this explanation goes for anyone who thinks Top should be let in.
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Making unsubstantiated speculations on metagame % etc are fairly unhelpful I think (partially because I see them as largely exaggerated) as we really can't know these things without seeing it in the meta.
The major difference here is that adding 30s to every turn is far far less offensive than adding 5-10minutes to even a few turns, because the more turns the opponent has to play, the more chances they have to win, and the less likely the game is to go to time.
Regardless, if top deserves the modern ban due to time considerations I can't see how it is any better in legacy. Even if more decks would run it in modern, the fact that it is played in legacy and doesn't cause enough issues to warrant a ban there, makes me think that perhaps it is worthy of consideration for unbanning.
For all I know top isn't safe for the format, but I think a few good point have been raised here in its defense, while the counter-argument generally doesn't amount to more than "eh it's top, it will never get unbanned so don't bother considering it" or "it's not overpowered in the format, it just causes time issues".
I, like a lot of people, believe the banned list is bloated, so I think cards like top that might be fine for the format (it's not something like MM or SFM), that have never been given a real chance in the format should be given one. We really can't know if top causes time issues without testing it in the format, and I do think it strange it was originally banned seeing as it doesn't cause issues in legacy.
Force of Will. Get that? Force is the reason top is not banned. Because you can't pitch top to force, but you can Ponder, Preordain and Brainstorm. Also, top on its own offers limited ability to look for cards. When it is just one card in your deck, maybe as a 4 of, your not going to see it as much as 4 Brainstorm and 4 Ponder.
Also, Ponder let's you shuffle, Brainstorm is busted as and Preordain gets rid of the cards you don't want. Top let's you... Oh Yea, stare at the three until you find a way to shuffle.
Lastly, the formats are a world apart. Top goes into decks that either need constant deck manipulation (Miracles) or are not blue but still play control (Painter). Top does not go into everything in the format, not because it's not good enough, but it normally clashes with the plan. The decks that want manipulation have it in blue, the others have Sylvan Library. Top therefore is left to the few remaining decks that need it. Everyone else has a different line of play and would see the reduction of the decks effectiveness with the addition of the card.
Now let's look at modern. We have Slight of Hand, Visions and what else really to play with the library? Not a whole lot. Add onto that the speed reduction of the format. I don't just mean the 4 turn rule, I mean the saturation of decks that plan for a longer game and fight to push the game there. Combo could use the card in modern, but I am thinking more Jund, UWr and Tron as decks that could use this card. Adding time to what already can be very long games.
Now please, before anyone thinks comparisons between Legacy and Modern are a good idea, think about this, Legacy has about 5500 more cards in its pool than Modern, of that it has a ton of past mistakes and stuff ups. It also plays a much stronger power level. It's like comparing an FTO to a GT40. No way is it fair, and the guy with the FTO is going to lose out everytime due to his lack of power and his lack of respect to history.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Sure, top doesn't see as much play as it might otherwise due to FoW and better deck manipulation, but so what? Blue based decks that want deck manipulation are also more central to the legacy metagame than modern.
Top does still get played in legacy decks such as miracles, where it apparently doesn't cause time issues.
I agree, comparisons between legacy and modern are not desirable (though slightly more relevant when it comes to issues such as time), however, what useful comparison can we draw to modern when it comes to top? There is none, so what proof do we have that it would be bad for the format? All anyone here is going off is gut-feelings, and irrational fears of banned cards.
I'm not saying I know that top wouldn't cause time issues or be over-centralising in the format, however I do know we have no useful or relevant data supporting its place on the banlist, I have not heard any convincing arguments backing up its place on the banlist, and I have very little faith in wizards' original banlist.
A whole bunch of one off effects are actually better for time than the repeatable one overall. If Ponder and Preordain got themselves unbanned, then Top can have my vote. While Top would be the only option though, no, it's going to stay a problem.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
Yeah, we're on the same page. I was saying Top isn't just banned in Modern because of time (because if it was, it'd be banned in other formats for the same reason) and that it had a lot more to do with power level, which Modern can't respond to as well as some decks in Legacy can.
I don't think the explanation can go any further.
I too believe this is corrrect. I just think that Top should at least get some testing.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: I used the Helm of Awakening + double Top combo in my Doomsday deck to generate infinity storm and be able to play around Teeg.
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
But the advantage of Intuition is that it also finds your second Top, as well as any silver bullet.
In any case, I don't figure it'll happen soon. :/
I posted a similar response to this earlier on the thread so here goes:
The problem with Eggs was that the one turn the player went off would take a very long time. Top just adds a little time each turn. Even with players like Joe Lossett playing miracles in legacy the SCG Open's are never too far behind schedule. So I think top, while it is unlikely, could come back.
Freedom is slavery!
Ignorance is strength!
Looking to legacy which has access to double the fetches and wasteland as the only reason to run any basics, the SCG Open tournaments usually end at a reasonable time. While Top does add time due to extensive decisions I think it would be manageable. It would also be nice to have a true control deck in the format rather than UWR flash/burn which currently fills that role.
Freedom is slavery!
Ignorance is strength!
Modern
WUBRG