If JTMS is unbanned, then preordain, ponder, and sensei's divining top need to see freedom as well. And if all of those are unbanned, lets get Seething Song and Rite of Flame back. If those are back, lets bring in GGT and dread return. Modern plays far too slowly for 11 years of Magic. Get rid of the turn 4 rule.
Honestly when we discuss the banlist, it should at least be within the basic framework of the format. If you want those cards unbanned, explain how they WONT be a consistent turn three win.
Personally though I don't wanna be in format with fast combo so yea naturally I disagree.
While I like Modern to become more powerful I still like the turn 4 rule to be intact because I have no interests in games that are over in one way or another before turn 4.
Im a control player at heart so don't really see the point of having such fast wins. Might as well not play the game and just reveal your starting hands at each other and see who beats who.
You have to acknowledge something, Modern is a stand alone format so it should be unique to other formats. Also, it should have nearly no similarities to other formats like Standard, Legacy, Extended, Block or Vintage. Hence, it has an own meta and its own special decks (Pod, Twin, Bogles, Infect, UR Storm just to name a few). Also due to the turn 4 kill restriction set by Wizard fast combo decks aren't allowed. A reason for this is the missing disruption for fast combo decks (there are no free counters in Modern and the available counters atm are pretty useless against a turn 2 kill deck).
What does this mean? The format is not slow for 11 years of magic it is actually pretty fast compared to earlier decks (okey, with the Urza block it changed, but before magic was really, really slow). By speeding up the format, so making it a turn 3 or even 2 format, more then the half of the decks would be unplayable. Take for example Zoo in Legacy. Once was it a DtB, but now it is just a crap deck (sorry to say this). It is to slow for the format and has no disruption to slow the opponent down. Looking at Modern the same thing would occur if you speed up the meta. Either you are faster with the kill, which would be difficult, or you need ton of disruption to slow the opponent down that you are able to beat the Turn 2 decks (and Storm would be a Turn 2 deck with all those cards). The problem is, the disruption available in Modern is garbage against a Turn 2 kill. Cool you discarded a card, you are dead, game 2? Oh you have a Spell Pierce, I have pact or can pay for it, game 2?
This means for a fair non-control non-combo deck, either you hope that you don't play against Combo at all at a tournament and try to feed on the Control decks, or you just loose the whole time.
I think, many people out there don't want to play in this meta and this would be very toxic for Modern.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: This post took 30 min, man I'm slow at writing
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What I play or have:
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
If JTMS is unbanned, then preordain, ponder, and sensei's divining top need to see freedom as well.
Why? You give no logical connection between those two ideas.
And if all of those are unbanned, lets get Seething Song and Rite of Flame back.
That makes even less sense. You're already giving the decks that would play those cards a big boost with Ponder and Preordain, and now you want to make them even better?
If those are back, lets bring in GGT and dread return. Modern plays far too slowly for 11 years of Magic. Get rid of the turn 4 rule.
And again, a lack of a connection between the statements. And then you conclude with the unsupported claim that Modern plays "too slowly" (why?). What makes it "too" slow? This is a completely subjective and arbitrary statement.
Your post is really lacking in any kind of logical structure. It's actually a little impressive.
So, how about we deal with these combo decks like this: unban seething song, blazing shoal, dread return, and golgari grave Troll. We then ban pact of negation, progenesis, myojin of infinite rage, bogardan hellkite, and bridge from below.
Yea in that environment why not just play storm? Most decks can react fast enough before it combos turn 2, protection or not. Every answer I have is a turn two answer in white, (maybe I could mana tithe?) so if I'm not on the play I should just auto lose to storm? Like realistically how do non blue/black decks deal with turn two storm? Often times even a seize wouldn't really stop it if it has access to ALL it's banned toys.
If JTMS is unbanned, then preordain, ponder, and sensei's divining top need to see freedom as well. And if all of those are unbanned, lets get Seething Song and Rite of Flame back. If those are back, lets bring in GGT and dread return. Modern plays far too slowly for 11 years of Magic. Get rid of the turn 4 rule.
Modern is not Legacy and it shouldn't be made to play more like Legacy. If you enjoy that playstyle, then Legacy is probably more your speed. Good luck buying the lands if you don't already have them.
Modern also shouldn't be nerfed down to Standard levels.
I like Modern where it is. Usually when someone says that it means they don't want anything banned/unbanned. Would I play with DRS, JTMS, Dark Depths, etc.? Yes, probably. But let's let the format thrive without them for now.
re: SFM. Someone nailed it earlier. SFM is the enabler, not any single piece of equipment, even Batterskull. Therefore even a swap ban wouldn't be appropriate. I agree with SFM staying where it is.
I play UR Delver and Jund in Modern, Merfolk and Esper Stoneblade in Legacy, and Dark Times and BUG Fish (no, Fish does not mean Merfolk) in Vintage (I proxy power 9, don't own any yet). Basically I have a competitive deck and a fun deck for each of the non-rotating and/or eternal formats. I play with most of these cards discussed in this thread, and I enjoy them all. But I also want each format to be unique and to be able to thrive on its own.
So, how about we deal with these combo decks like this: unban seething song, blazing shoal, dread return, and golgari grave Troll. We then ban pact of negation, progenesis, myojin of infinite rage, bogardan hellkite, and bridge from below.
Deal?
No thank you. I like Modern where it is. No need to speed it up any more. Even with the hand full of cards you mentioned, the format would be extremely fast with no policing cards to keep it in check.
Dang. I thought all the regulars on this board agreed with each other against shinyfirefly, but nope valanarch didn't fall in line haha. There's still a pretty good coalition of experienced players saying he's wrong though hahaha
In my experience, modern is actually the fastest of the non rotating formats.
While that might not be true in "turns," there are so many more options and interactions in legacy and vintage that those games often take longer in real time than modern games do. I just often feel like lots of modern decks just play past each other and see who wins first.
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Currently Playing:
Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
So, how about we deal with these combo decks like this: unban seething song, blazing shoal, dread return, and golgari grave Troll. We then ban pact of negation, progenesis, myojin of infinite rage, bogardan hellkite, and bridge from below.
Deal?
Are we talking about different formats? Wizards has made it extremely clear that this is a turn 4 format where "top tier" decks cannot win on turn 3 or earlier. If Modern had the same police card quality as Legacy, then I would agree that these are fine unbans. But given the cards we have in this format right now, those unbans just don't align with Modern. Now, it's fine if there are fast decks winning before turn 3 that are not top tier and/or cannot do so consistently (Griselbrand, Infect, cheeri0s, etc.). Those particular decks are perfectly fine, and serve as great examples of fast combo in this format. The cards you want unbanned, however, are involved in much more dangerous decks. We already know that Storm + Seething Song was fast, consistent, and very much top tier. And we already know that Shoal Infect had the same issue. So there's just no reason to unban them unless Wizards gets higher quality policing cards to handle those decks.
Also, I suggest you review the OP of our banlist discussion. We explicitly put in a rule that forbids talking about multiple bans because it's often nonsensical (banning Bogardan Hellkite???), always extremely contentious, and rarely leads anywhere but arguments and flaming.
I always saw modern as having the same power level as old extended, 6 years of play.
The first time I saw extended I played with amazing decks. I saw UG Madness, Psychatog, Counter-Top, UWG Tron, Storm, Elves, Goblins, Belcher, Affinity, White Weenie, Balancing Tings, BubbleHulk, Zoo, RDW, Tooth and Nail, Eminent Domain, Death Cloud, and KCI.
So, how about we deal with these combo decks like this: unban seething song, blazing shoal, dread return, and golgari grave Troll. We then ban pact of negation, progenesis, myojin of infinite rage, bogardan hellkite, and bridge from below. Deal?
As far as banning Bogardan Hellkite, that made a Storm count 4 dragonstorm a 20 damage win. Bridge from Below is the only card that makes Dredge really scary. Pact of Negation as combo backup is a bit rediculous.
My Point of View:
dredge without BfB is good, scary, and turn 4.
dredge without GGT and Dread Return doesn't exist.
storm without bogardan hellkite ia good, scary, and can swing for lethal on turn 4.
storm without seething song doesn't exist.
I will admit that it was a cool format. Play the new Modern for a bit. It's also a pretty decent format or none of us would be here posting. I went from exclusively going to the Standard format forum here on MTGS to the Modern format forum most of the time (occasionally Legacy too). There are a lot of decent decks and Dread Return is really the engine that makes Dredge so powerful (being able to bring back a fattie very quickly also).
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Legacy - Sneak Show, BR Reanimator, Miracles, UW Stoneblade
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/ Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander - Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build) (dead format for me)
Dude. Wizards wants to put Storm at a reasonable power level, not kill it completely. While Ascension and Past in Flames are the engines, that doesn't make them the culprits for the consistent turn 2 wins. That can be blamed on efficient cantrips and rituals. Storm now has less efficient cantrips and rituals, and now everything is fine.
As far as Dragonstorm goes, that card is unplayable in the current format. Even if you unban said cantrips and rituals, regular Storm would still win on turn 2 anyway, so it would be objectively inferior to Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens.
I understand if you want to play in a format that you liked again. I'd love to be able to play ISD-RTR Standard again because it was an amazing format, but of course that's not happening. The current Modern format is great too. If you don't like it, I respect that, but you'd need far more bans and unbans than would be healthy for the game as a whole to recreate a format which wouldn't work because some key cards weren't printed in Modern-legal sets. So yeah, try to improve the current format, but you're maybe pushing things a little too far.
storm without bogardan hellkite ia good, scary, and can swing for lethal on turn 4.
Bogardan Hellkite is absolutely irrelevant to Storm. You seem to be under the impression that all Dragonstorm needs is Seething Song, when Dragonstorm wasn't a real deck even before the Seething Song ban.
storm without seething song doesn't exist.
I'm sure that's big news to the guy who got Top 8 at the Pro Tour a few months ago with Storm.
I always saw modern as having the same power level as old extended, 6 years of play.
The first time I saw extended I played with amazing decks. I saw UG Madness, Psychatog, Counter-Top, UWG Tron, Storm, Elves, Goblins, Belcher, Affinity, White Weenie, Balancing Tings, BubbleHulk, Zoo, RDW, Tooth and Nail, Eminent Domain, Death Cloud, and KCI.
So, how about we deal with these combo decks like this: unban seething song, blazing shoal, dread return, and golgari grave Troll. We then ban pact of negation, progenesis, myojin of infinite rage, bogardan hellkite, and bridge from below. Deal?
As far as banning Bogardan Hellkite, that made a Storm count 4 dragonstorm a 20 damage win. Bridge from Below is the only card that makes Dredge really scary. Pact of Negation as combo backup is a bit rediculous.
My Point of View:
dredge without BfB is good, scary, and turn 4.
dredge without GGT and Dread Return doesn't exist.
storm without bogardan hellkite ia good, scary, and can swing for lethal on turn 4.
storm without seething song doesn't exist.
You should probably play Legacy. Seems to be the format for you. Obviously you don't like Modern. it is what it is. Those unbans you suggest are never ever going to happen. Maybe some cards will come off within a couple of years depending on the meta and cards being print, but you can forget about all those cards being unbanned. You can also forget about losing the turn 4 rule. If you like turn 1 wins and more broken stuff, play legacy. Simple as that.
In Legacy you can play the storm you like
In Legacy you can play dredge
In legacy you can play with JTMS and other cards you mentioned
In Legacy you can win on T1 with belcher
Seems like the perfect format for what you like withing Magic.
Lets be honest. I just want dredge back, a deck I top 8ed a major tournament with. back before I quit.
I could see A FORM of dredge coming back. It really depends on what part of it appealed to you. If it's a grave based deck that was highly resistant to a lotta decks, yes I could see that. If it was cheating out a fatty turn two and winning turn three then no. That's never coming back.
I feel like we should move away from this discussion now.
Two questions. First, do you guys think that Wizards will ban Pod at the next update? Second, should they ban Pod?
No to both questions but I think they should keep an eye on it.
It's a time bomb waiting to explode in my opinion. Look at Reclamation Sage in M15 which will instantly replace all copies of Harmonic Sliver in pod lists.
Granted that is not the biggest jump in power but you get the idea.
It also doesn't help that Birthing Pod makes the deck extremely consistent and gains value while all the cards that makes blue decks more consistent are on the ban list.
Lets be honest. I just want dredge back, a deck I top 8ed a major tournament with. back before I quit.
Then play Legacy. I'm normally not a fan of that "just go play Legacy" answer, but here it seems to make sense. All of the banned Dredge cards are there, and you get more goodies besides (e.g. Cabal Therapy, Ichorid). I can't even count price as a real issue because it's actually one of the cheaper decks to play in the format.
That said, I would support a swap of Golgari Grave-Troll & Dread Return with Bridge from Below. Golgari Grave-Troll I see as irrelevant; either the cards to make Dredge work are there or not. If they're not (as they aren't), then it's pointless to keep it banned, and if the cards are there, I don't think Golgari Grave-Troll is what decides if the deck is broken or not, so one way or the other I don't think it should be banned (it most certainly should not be banned right now, because it would do flat nothing in the format if unbanned). As for Dread Return and Bridge from Below, I think Bridge from Below should have been the banned card. Dredge really needs both cards to function right, so just taking out one would be sufficient. So why did they take out the more interesting one? Bridge from Below only has unfair applications, whereas Dread Return at least has "legitimate" uses. Bridge from Below was the one banned in Overextended...
I feel like we should move away from this discussion now.
Two questions. First, do you guys think that Wizards will ban Pod at the next update? Second, should they ban Pod?
No to both questions but I think they should keep an eye on it.
It's a time bomb waiting to explode in my opinion. Look at Reclamation Sage in M15 which will instantly replace all copies of Harmonic Sliver in pod lists.
Granted that is not the biggest jump in power but you get the idea.
It also doesn't help that Birthing Pod makes the deck extremely consistent and gains value while all the cards that makes blue decks more consistent are on the ban list.
I'd have to agree. Personally, I'd like a ban that would make Pod less dominant, but would affect Melira Pod more. Gavony Township would make the most sense, as it would hurt the ability to have an effective midrange plan, but both decks could get around it to some degree (Melira Pod by playing Restoration Angel, Kiki Pod by playing a list similar to my current list with Splinter Twin).
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Personally though I don't wanna be in format with fast combo so yea naturally I disagree.
Im a control player at heart so don't really see the point of having such fast wins. Might as well not play the game and just reveal your starting hands at each other and see who beats who.
What does this mean? The format is not slow for 11 years of magic it is actually pretty fast compared to earlier decks (okey, with the Urza block it changed, but before magic was really, really slow). By speeding up the format, so making it a turn 3 or even 2 format, more then the half of the decks would be unplayable. Take for example Zoo in Legacy. Once was it a DtB, but now it is just a crap deck (sorry to say this). It is to slow for the format and has no disruption to slow the opponent down. Looking at Modern the same thing would occur if you speed up the meta. Either you are faster with the kill, which would be difficult, or you need ton of disruption to slow the opponent down that you are able to beat the Turn 2 decks (and Storm would be a Turn 2 deck with all those cards). The problem is, the disruption available in Modern is garbage against a Turn 2 kill. Cool you discarded a card, you are dead, game 2? Oh you have a Spell Pierce, I have pact or can pay for it, game 2?
This means for a fair non-control non-combo deck, either you hope that you don't play against Combo at all at a tournament and try to feed on the Control decks, or you just loose the whole time.
I think, many people out there don't want to play in this meta and this would be very toxic for Modern.
Greetings,
Kathal
PS: This post took 30 min, man I'm slow at writing
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
That makes even less sense. You're already giving the decks that would play those cards a big boost with Ponder and Preordain, and now you want to make them even better?
And again, a lack of a connection between the statements. And then you conclude with the unsupported claim that Modern plays "too slowly" (why?). What makes it "too" slow? This is a completely subjective and arbitrary statement.
Your post is really lacking in any kind of logical structure. It's actually a little impressive.
Deal?
Greetings,
Kathal
Modern/Legacy
either funpolice (Delver, Deathcloud, UW Control) or the fun decks (especially those ft. Griselbrand)
Modern also shouldn't be nerfed down to Standard levels.
I like Modern where it is. Usually when someone says that it means they don't want anything banned/unbanned. Would I play with DRS, JTMS, Dark Depths, etc.? Yes, probably. But let's let the format thrive without them for now.
re: SFM. Someone nailed it earlier. SFM is the enabler, not any single piece of equipment, even Batterskull. Therefore even a swap ban wouldn't be appropriate. I agree with SFM staying where it is.
I play UR Delver and Jund in Modern, Merfolk and Esper Stoneblade in Legacy, and Dark Times and BUG Fish (no, Fish does not mean Merfolk) in Vintage (I proxy power 9, don't own any yet). Basically I have a competitive deck and a fun deck for each of the non-rotating and/or eternal formats. I play with most of these cards discussed in this thread, and I enjoy them all. But I also want each format to be unique and to be able to thrive on its own.
Standard: lol no
Modern: BG/x, UR/x, Burn, Merfolk, Zoo, Storm
Legacy: Shardless BUG, Delver (BUG, RUG, Grixis), Landstill, Depths Combo, Merfolk
Vintage: Dark Times, BUG Fish, Merfolk
EDH: Teysa, Orzhov Scion / Krenko, Mob Boss / Stonebrow, Krosan Hero
No thank you. I like Modern where it is. No need to speed it up any more. Even with the hand full of cards you mentioned, the format would be extremely fast with no policing cards to keep it in check.
While that might not be true in "turns," there are so many more options and interactions in legacy and vintage that those games often take longer in real time than modern games do. I just often feel like lots of modern decks just play past each other and see who wins first.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
Are we talking about different formats? Wizards has made it extremely clear that this is a turn 4 format where "top tier" decks cannot win on turn 3 or earlier. If Modern had the same police card quality as Legacy, then I would agree that these are fine unbans. But given the cards we have in this format right now, those unbans just don't align with Modern. Now, it's fine if there are fast decks winning before turn 3 that are not top tier and/or cannot do so consistently (Griselbrand, Infect, cheeri0s, etc.). Those particular decks are perfectly fine, and serve as great examples of fast combo in this format. The cards you want unbanned, however, are involved in much more dangerous decks. We already know that Storm + Seething Song was fast, consistent, and very much top tier. And we already know that Shoal Infect had the same issue. So there's just no reason to unban them unless Wizards gets higher quality policing cards to handle those decks.
Also, I suggest you review the OP of our banlist discussion. We explicitly put in a rule that forbids talking about multiple bans because it's often nonsensical (banning Bogardan Hellkite???), always extremely contentious, and rarely leads anywhere but arguments and flaming.
The first time I saw extended I played with amazing decks. I saw UG Madness, Psychatog, Counter-Top, UWG Tron, Storm, Elves, Goblins, Belcher, Affinity, White Weenie, Balancing Tings, BubbleHulk, Zoo, RDW, Tooth and Nail, Eminent Domain, Death Cloud, and KCI.
I would love to play in a format like that again.
As far as banning Bogardan Hellkite, that made a Storm count 4 dragonstorm a 20 damage win. Bridge from Below is the only card that makes Dredge really scary. Pact of Negation as combo backup is a bit rediculous.
My Point of View:
dredge without BfB is good, scary, and turn 4.
dredge without GGT and Dread Return doesn't exist.
storm without bogardan hellkite ia good, scary, and can swing for lethal on turn 4.
storm without seething song doesn't exist.
http://www.channelfireball.com/articles/taking-modern-by-storm/
I will admit that it was a cool format. Play the new Modern for a bit. It's also a pretty decent format or none of us would be here posting. I went from exclusively going to the Standard format forum here on MTGS to the Modern format forum most of the time (occasionally Legacy too). There are a lot of decent decks and Dread Return is really the engine that makes Dredge so powerful (being able to bring back a fattie very quickly also).
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)As far as Dragonstorm goes, that card is unplayable in the current format. Even if you unban said cantrips and rituals, regular Storm would still win on turn 2 anyway, so it would be objectively inferior to Grapeshot and Empty the Warrens.
I understand if you want to play in a format that you liked again. I'd love to be able to play ISD-RTR Standard again because it was an amazing format, but of course that's not happening. The current Modern format is great too. If you don't like it, I respect that, but you'd need far more bans and unbans than would be healthy for the game as a whole to recreate a format which wouldn't work because some key cards weren't printed in Modern-legal sets. So yeah, try to improve the current format, but you're maybe pushing things a little too far.
I'm sure that's big news to the guy who got Top 8 at the Pro Tour a few months ago with Storm.
Two questions. First, do you guys think that Wizards will ban Pod at the next update? Second, should they ban Pod?
You should probably play Legacy. Seems to be the format for you. Obviously you don't like Modern. it is what it is. Those unbans you suggest are never ever going to happen. Maybe some cards will come off within a couple of years depending on the meta and cards being print, but you can forget about all those cards being unbanned. You can also forget about losing the turn 4 rule. If you like turn 1 wins and more broken stuff, play legacy. Simple as that.
In Legacy you can play the storm you like
In Legacy you can play dredge
In legacy you can play with JTMS and other cards you mentioned
In Legacy you can win on T1 with belcher
Seems like the perfect format for what you like withing Magic.
I could see A FORM of dredge coming back. It really depends on what part of it appealed to you. If it's a grave based deck that was highly resistant to a lotta decks, yes I could see that. If it was cheating out a fatty turn two and winning turn three then no. That's never coming back.
No to both questions but I think they should keep an eye on it.
It's a time bomb waiting to explode in my opinion. Look at Reclamation Sage in M15 which will instantly replace all copies of Harmonic Sliver in pod lists.
Granted that is not the biggest jump in power but you get the idea.
It also doesn't help that Birthing Pod makes the deck extremely consistent and gains value while all the cards that makes blue decks more consistent are on the ban list.
That said, I would support a swap of Golgari Grave-Troll & Dread Return with Bridge from Below. Golgari Grave-Troll I see as irrelevant; either the cards to make Dredge work are there or not. If they're not (as they aren't), then it's pointless to keep it banned, and if the cards are there, I don't think Golgari Grave-Troll is what decides if the deck is broken or not, so one way or the other I don't think it should be banned (it most certainly should not be banned right now, because it would do flat nothing in the format if unbanned). As for Dread Return and Bridge from Below, I think Bridge from Below should have been the banned card. Dredge really needs both cards to function right, so just taking out one would be sufficient. So why did they take out the more interesting one? Bridge from Below only has unfair applications, whereas Dread Return at least has "legitimate" uses. Bridge from Below was the one banned in Overextended...
I'd have to agree. Personally, I'd like a ban that would make Pod less dominant, but would affect Melira Pod more. Gavony Township would make the most sense, as it would hurt the ability to have an effective midrange plan, but both decks could get around it to some degree (Melira Pod by playing Restoration Angel, Kiki Pod by playing a list similar to my current list with Splinter Twin).