I do wonder why a card like top finds itself banned in Modern, but not Legacy where the issue it creates are compounded. That to me says that there is more than a time issue going on. The card is seen as too powerful for Modern (and with a lack of card manipulation in the format, not hard to understand why) overall and is banned for more than just the official reaonsiong.
To be fair, it was banned in Extended for the same reason.
Yes. They ban things for time reasons in all formats that they support. They don't really support any other format aside from Standard and Modern right now. Also in Legacy or Vintage there are also games that are decided in 3 turns so it compensates for some of the times lost to control mirrors.
They used to support Extended? I thought that they had given up on that format.
How is Wotc not being consistent? They banned eggs for the exact same reason with in the format.
Look at the ban list, look at how many consistency cards there are on the list. Its pretty apparent Wotc is shying away from consistency in the format.
That's because they mentioned that consistent decks lend themselves to skilled players. How will magic get new blood if all the pros and long time players always win against the new players?
Valakut and Bitterblossom were also considered too strong by most and decried as potential destroyers of the format.
That is a completely disingenuous comparison and if you know anything about the format it's clear. Stoneforge can't be in modern with Batterskull until the power level of modern had raised far more.
^This. If we are talking about unbanning SFM now, I guess I would also say no. In a few years time they probably can unban that card if it's not going to break the meta.
I would LOVE that for my death and taxes deck haha. It would make running swords so much safer! Not to mention Batterskull is one of the worst threats for my deck to deal with. But yea, extreme bias haha.
I still have hopes for her being unbanned. That's why I only keep 1 of all the swords and batterskull. I don't believe these babies are playable enough without their mama.
I would LOVE that for my death and taxes deck haha. It would make running swords so much safer! Not to mention Batterskull is one of the worst threats for my deck to deal with. But yea, extreme bias haha.
I still have hopes for her being unbanned. That's why I only keep 1 of all the swords and batterskull. I don't believe these babies are playable enough without their mama.
I know man. Swords never perform in the few matchups I REALLY need em. Needs stoneforge bad!
I do wonder why a card like top finds itself banned in Modern, but not Legacy where the issue it creates are compounded. That to me says that there is more than a time issue going on. The card is seen as too powerful for Modern (and with a lack of card manipulation in the format, not hard to understand why) overall and is banned for more than just the official reaonsiong.
To be fair, it was banned in Extended for the same reason.
Yes. They ban things for time reasons in all formats that they support. They don't really support any other format aside from Standard and Modern right now. Also in Legacy or Vintage there are also games that are decided in 3 turns so it compensates for some of the times lost to control mirrors.
They used to support Extended? I thought that they had given up on that format.
They did give up on Extended. But before Modern, it was strongly supported by them, with there being various Grand Prix for the format, there were Extended PTQ seasons and Pro Tours, etc. Basically, it was what Modern is now. They gave up on it because Modern more or less replaced it; plus, from my understanding, some of the decisions they made in regards to Extended later on, such as cutting it from the last 7 years to the last 4 years made it much less popular, but before that time it was a fairly important format.
the only way they could bring back stoneforge is if they ban batterskull. i doubt they will do that as batterskull does nothing wrong on its own
i played storm today against a first time modern player. i felt pretty bad when i went off on him turn 4 while he was helpless to do anything and had to wait for me to go through the motions.
but you know what - tough. that doesnt mean storm needs a ban. play better sb hate. i love playing storm due to how the deck works and if they kill it off modern will lose a lot of players
i do wish dredge was somehow more viable as that plays a unique game as well
I do wonder why a card like top finds itself banned in Modern, but not Legacy where the issue it creates are compounded. That to me says that there is more than a time issue going on. The card is seen as too powerful for Modern (and with a lack of card manipulation in the format, not hard to understand why) overall and is banned for more than just the official reaonsiong.
To be fair, it was banned in Extended for the same reason.
Yes. They ban things for time reasons in all formats that they support. They don't really support any other format aside from Standard and Modern right now. Also in Legacy or Vintage there are also games that are decided in 3 turns so it compensates for some of the times lost to control mirrors.
They used to support Extended? I thought that they had given up on that format.
They did give up on Extended. But before Modern, it was strongly supported by them, with there being various Grand Prix for the format, there were Extended PTQ seasons and Pro Tours, etc. Basically, it was what Modern is now. They gave up on it because Modern more or less replaced it; plus, from my understanding, some of the decisions they made in regards to Extended later on, such as cutting it from the last 7 years to the last 4 years made it much less popular, but before that time it was a fairly important format.
Oh, ok. I thought that it was a barely played format that was generally disliked by the players.
How is Wotc not being consistent? They banned eggs for the exact same reason with in the format.
Look at the ban list, look at how many consistency cards there are on the list. Its pretty apparent Wotc is shying away from consistency in the format.
That's because they mentioned that consistent decks lend themselves to skilled players. How will magic get new blood if all the pros and long time players always win against the new players?
That's complete bull*****, no Wizards representative has ever said that.
What would SFM mystic help in modern? I don't really see how it would be healthy for the format. What decks would it enable rather than just pushing the already good piles of good stuff with white in them?
It would help out Team Italia, Azorius Midrange, Junk, WUR Geist Midrange, and Naya Midrange, all of which have fallen in popularity recently.
This is a terrible argument, because the increase in power level will come across the board. It would buff UWR twin, UWR control, make BG rock splash white, BW tokens have a similar increase in power level. White is represented at the moment SFM is a one card combo that makes white stronger across the board.
Lol, some time ago I even saw a Legacy merfolk deck that splashed white for a stonefore mystic toolbox in the sideboard. Probably for the mirrormtach or something, and yes it won a tourney/daily or w/e, so it wasn't a terrible idea ;). Any deck could potentially put a SFM toolbox in their sideboard, or just main deck, as it only takes up 6-7 slots in the deck. Can we please stop talking about SFM though. It will never come off the list, ever. It's so obvous it's not even funny
I have been playing against Sword more and more in Legacy of late. I am unsure what a modern deck would look like, but the Legacy one can pull a game from nowhere. The Unban I think may be a bit more risky than people first assume. Granted you still have to live long enough to use it, but once you have that combo online your highly placed to win with effort required.
Not saying it's unsafe, only that I think it's a touch more powerful than most first assume. I know it's power surprised me.
Within only about 10.5 months, unless Wumpus Land destruction is taking over. Yeah, Wumpus Land destruction...
YES!!! Wumpus Land Destruction!! Let's make it a reality!!!
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Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming. Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Does anyone have a link for the ban list update on April 28th? I wasn't sure where people were going when the update to the modern ban list was announced when deathrite shaman was banned. I don't want to be behind the 8 ball when the announcement is made.
Does anyone have a link for the ban list update on April 28th? I wasn't sure where people were going when the update to the modern ban list was announced when deathrite shaman was banned. I don't want to be behind the 8 ball when the announcement is made.
We won't have the link until 11:00 PM central time on Sunday night. But if you just go to the DailyMTG homepage, it will probably be one of the first two articles at the top of that page.
Well, its a combo that doesnt win on the spot, is easily disrupt able, needs mana for activation, as well as 2 cards. Abrupt Decay is super strong against it, so is every artifact hate piece in the sideboard which is played anyways.
The issue with Sword, at least from my perspective (and probably Wizards), is that it might hurt more decks than it helps. Aggro is doing pretty well these days. It's no longer just a one story town of Affinity. We have Burn, BW Tokens, Soul Sisters, three different types of Zoo, and a bunch of other tier 2 decks that are all pretty viable. Sword would make those decks a lot worse, or at least force them to change substantially to deal with Swords which would dilute their card pool. And what decks would be gained? It would definitely help control and would probably help midrange, but I don't think it would create more decks than it hurt. Tezzeret decks would be happy. Some new control decks (Esper Gifts comes to mind) would probably get better. But all those fringe aggro decks would not be happy. Probably not worth it, although it's ultimately a matter of testing.
Also, Sam Stoddard had a fairly relevant comment in his article today, "Journey into the Mailbag".
In terms of the 1-CMC U cantrip, we didn't want to create a new one (as that could cause problems in Modern), but also felt like we didn't need one for Standard—so we left it out.
So on the one hand, this looks like it applies to card printing, not to banning/unbanning. Maybe it has nothing to do with Ponder/Preordain and it's just about new cards. Then again, you'd have to be pretty obtuse or optimistic to think that this statement has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the banlist. Because if a new 1-CMC U cantrip can cause problems in Modern, unbanning P and/or P would probably do the same; it's effectively a "new" 1-CMC U cantrip in the Modern card pool if it is unbanned.
This suggests to me that those two cards are going nowhere anytime soon.
It's a very powerful combo, probably too powerful for Modern, and I don't see it coming off the list like ever tbh
So a 2-card combo that has redundancy and wins the game on the spot is not too powerful (Splinter Twin), but a 2-card combo that does not have redundancy and does not instantly win the game if successfully assembled is not?
See the post above yours. He explains it very well. No it's not an instant win, but it is a combo that will hurt a lot more decks than splinter twin does now. Additionally, the combo is 'tutorable' (tezzeret, treasure mage), so the redundancy thing doesn't really apply imo since it would be near as consistent as twin, maybe even more consistent. Having another combo that can fit in multiple decks, seems like a very bad idea, but that's just my gut feeling.
A: The Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo is very powerful and very easy to fit into a control deck since it’s cheap and combines well with card drawing like Thirst for Knowledge. With cards like Academy Ruins to back it up, the combo is incredibly resilient.
A lot of people are calling for Dark Depths to be banned, but, despite not being as fast, evidence supports that Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry was more problematic. The cheap combo can grind out control decks easily and negates beatdown decks once online. Additionally, it has a Top-Esque problem in that mirror matches with Thopter/Sword draw out games.
It’s okay that some combos exist, but ones that are this powerful, negate aggressive strategies, make rounds take an extremely long time, and fit so smoothly into control decks have to be looked at for bannings. This is one such case.
^This was from Gavin Verhey, creator of Overextended (sort of like Modern, but from Invasion onwards and with 8 cards on the banlist). Gavin currently works at Wizards. It's not entirely impossible that he has a say in Modern's banlist.
FWIW, I'd much rather have a Chrome Mox unban than a Sword unban to boost control, which I wrote about here. Before you go "oh no, Chrome Mox will boost combo, we can't unban it", read my post - I challenge that notion. You might learn something new.
I did not elaborate on Twin in that post, but it seems unlikely for Twin to want Mox. Why? One, it does not play artifacts main, so it has little to benefit from the Mox + Thirst shell. Two, we have seen Twin with mana dorks at GP Richmond (dig through the archives yourself if you don't believe me) and it failed to make any lasting impression. Mana dorks aren't what Twin wants.
A: The Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo is very powerful and very easy to fit into a control deck since it’s cheap and combines well with card drawing like Thirst for Knowledge. With cards like Academy Ruins to back it up, the combo is incredibly resilient.
A lot of people are calling for Dark Depths to be banned, but, despite not being as fast, evidence supports that Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry was more problematic. The cheap combo can grind out control decks easily and negates beatdown decks once online. Additionally, it has a Top-Esque problem in that mirror matches with Thopter/Sword draw out games.
It’s okay that some combos exist, but ones that are this powerful, negate aggressive strategies, make rounds take an extremely long time, and fit so smoothly into control decks have to be looked at for bannings. This is one such case.
^This was from Gavin Verhey, creator of Overextended (sort of like Modern, but from Invasion onwards and with 8 cards on the banlist). Gavin currently works at Wizards. It's not entirely impossible that he has a say in Modern's banlist.
FWIW, I'd much rather have a Chrome Mox unban than a Sword unban to boost control, which I wrote about here. Before you go "oh no, Chrome Mox will boost combo, we can't unban it", read my post - I challenge that notion. You might learn something new.
I did not elaborate on Twin in that post, but it seems unlikely for Twin to want Mox. Why? One, it does not play artifacts main, so it has little to benefit from the Mox + Thirst shell. Two, we have seen Twin with mana dorks at GP Richmond (dig through the archives yourself if you don't believe me) and it failed to make any lasting impression. Mana dorks aren't what Twin wants.
I really really don't know how you can look at chrome mox and think it's an innocent card. "Free" spells are notoriously dangerous. Mana accelerates (non creature ones) are dangerous. I'm really not so sure twin wouldn't use this either. They have a lot of redundancies that mean if they wanna pitch a card to it they can. Yes I would love to have tezzerator get a boost (one of my favorite decks) but not at the risk chrome mox poses. And there's quite a difference between running mox and a dork with the comparison you made in the link. Less tempo loss here for twin (they can afford the card, but likely not the mana) and it's harder to kill a mox than a dork.
They used to support Extended? I thought that they had given up on that format.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
That's because they mentioned that consistent decks lend themselves to skilled players. How will magic get new blood if all the pros and long time players always win against the new players?
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
^This. If we are talking about unbanning SFM now, I guess I would also say no. In a few years time they probably can unban that card if it's not going to break the meta.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
I still have hopes for her being unbanned. That's why I only keep 1 of all the swords and batterskull. I don't believe these babies are playable enough without their mama.
UWR Midrange
BRG Jund
BG Rock
UR Storm
The Philippine Modern Community
RGWUB MTG Modern Philippines
I know man. Swords never perform in the few matchups I REALLY need em. Needs stoneforge bad!
i played storm today against a first time modern player. i felt pretty bad when i went off on him turn 4 while he was helpless to do anything and had to wait for me to go through the motions.
but you know what - tough. that doesnt mean storm needs a ban. play better sb hate. i love playing storm due to how the deck works and if they kill it off modern will lose a lot of players
i do wish dredge was somehow more viable as that plays a unique game as well
can we have troll back if not dread return?
Oh, ok. I thought that it was a barely played format that was generally disliked by the players.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
why did they do that? it was a great format
That's complete bull*****, no Wizards representative has ever said that.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
This is a terrible argument, because the increase in power level will come across the board. It would buff UWR twin, UWR control, make BG rock splash white, BW tokens have a similar increase in power level. White is represented at the moment SFM is a one card combo that makes white stronger across the board.
Not saying it's unsafe, only that I think it's a touch more powerful than most first assume. I know it's power surprised me.
Current decks of choice:
Vintage: Shops.
Legacy: Lands.
Modern: Lantern.
DECKS:
UB Faeries [Midrange/Tempo]
RWUGB Affinity[Aggro]
FAERIES TOO STRONK!!!1111
- Fae Prophecy, 201
5678YES!!! Wumpus Land Destruction!! Let's make it a reality!!!
Be a lemming hunter. Don't be a lemming.
Really, all you had to do was explain to him the popularity metric, not give him the lemming hunter manifesto...
Originally posted by MemoryLapse and DotMatrix
We won't have the link until 11:00 PM central time on Sunday night. But if you just go to the DailyMTG homepage, it will probably be one of the first two articles at the top of that page.
It's a very powerful combo, probably too powerful for Modern, and I don't see it coming off the list like ever tbh
The issue with Sword, at least from my perspective (and probably Wizards), is that it might hurt more decks than it helps. Aggro is doing pretty well these days. It's no longer just a one story town of Affinity. We have Burn, BW Tokens, Soul Sisters, three different types of Zoo, and a bunch of other tier 2 decks that are all pretty viable. Sword would make those decks a lot worse, or at least force them to change substantially to deal with Swords which would dilute their card pool. And what decks would be gained? It would definitely help control and would probably help midrange, but I don't think it would create more decks than it hurt. Tezzeret decks would be happy. Some new control decks (Esper Gifts comes to mind) would probably get better. But all those fringe aggro decks would not be happy. Probably not worth it, although it's ultimately a matter of testing.
Also, Sam Stoddard had a fairly relevant comment in his article today, "Journey into the Mailbag".
So on the one hand, this looks like it applies to card printing, not to banning/unbanning. Maybe it has nothing to do with Ponder/Preordain and it's just about new cards. Then again, you'd have to be pretty obtuse or optimistic to think that this statement has absolutely no bearing whatsoever on the banlist. Because if a new 1-CMC U cantrip can cause problems in Modern, unbanning P and/or P would probably do the same; it's effectively a "new" 1-CMC U cantrip in the Modern card pool if it is unbanned.
This suggests to me that those two cards are going nowhere anytime soon.
A: The Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry combo is very powerful and very easy to fit into a control deck since it’s cheap and combines well with card drawing like Thirst for Knowledge. With cards like Academy Ruins to back it up, the combo is incredibly resilient.
A lot of people are calling for Dark Depths to be banned, but, despite not being as fast, evidence supports that Sword of the Meek/Thopter Foundry was more problematic. The cheap combo can grind out control decks easily and negates beatdown decks once online. Additionally, it has a Top-Esque problem in that mirror matches with Thopter/Sword draw out games.
It’s okay that some combos exist, but ones that are this powerful, negate aggressive strategies, make rounds take an extremely long time, and fit so smoothly into control decks have to be looked at for bannings. This is one such case.
^This was from Gavin Verhey, creator of Overextended (sort of like Modern, but from Invasion onwards and with 8 cards on the banlist). Gavin currently works at Wizards. It's not entirely impossible that he has a say in Modern's banlist.
FWIW, I'd much rather have a Chrome Mox unban than a Sword unban to boost control, which I wrote about here. Before you go "oh no, Chrome Mox will boost combo, we can't unban it", read my post - I challenge that notion. You might learn something new.
I did not elaborate on Twin in that post, but it seems unlikely for Twin to want Mox. Why? One, it does not play artifacts main, so it has little to benefit from the Mox + Thirst shell. Two, we have seen Twin with mana dorks at GP Richmond (dig through the archives yourself if you don't believe me) and it failed to make any lasting impression. Mana dorks aren't what Twin wants.
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Big Johnny.
I really really don't know how you can look at chrome mox and think it's an innocent card. "Free" spells are notoriously dangerous. Mana accelerates (non creature ones) are dangerous. I'm really not so sure twin wouldn't use this either. They have a lot of redundancies that mean if they wanna pitch a card to it they can. Yes I would love to have tezzerator get a boost (one of my favorite decks) but not at the risk chrome mox poses. And there's quite a difference between running mox and a dork with the comparison you made in the link. Less tempo loss here for twin (they can afford the card, but likely not the mana) and it's harder to kill a mox than a dork.