to me splinter twin is the posterchild of what a combo deck in modern should look like. Banning any part of this deck seems like a big mistake (im talking about the combo pieces)
You have to remember that Splinter Twin is the main cause for 3-4 cards being banned.
^^that's not even true any more. if you play all in twin, if you don't go off on turn 4, you've either kept a terrible hand or probability kicked you in the nuts. having preordain and ponder won't do that much more for the deck in terms of consistency.
that's not even considering that most twin lists are much more tempo oriented now, where they don't go off turn 4 and instead play a resource management game until they can safely protect their combo. these list run ~6ish exarch/pestermite, 4 splinter twin, 0 kiki jiki. the combo is just insurance to the (weaker) tempo plan the deck has.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
But, like I said, I'm not saying it's a huge problem now. I do think it should be watched.
No, if a 5-mana 2-toughness creature is making problems, it is only possible when there are other things in that deck that are more problematic. It can't even break the turn 4 rule. It is totally safe and doesn't need to be watched. It is just a win-con and every deck simply needs a way to win.
Yeap. But is it okay that decks that were already working, had potential to grow, and already contained win cons can just add a kiki for an extra random 'oops, I win' combo? I think it's very dull and doesn't make the format any more interesting. It's probably personal and that's why I clearly said it's not a problem right now.
With any other combo that could be added to certain decks I don't think I would have a problem. The 'oops, I win' factor that's being added to more and more decks, is just strange. The fact that it's only a 2 toughness creature has nothing to do with it. Answers are NEVER a reason to ban or not ban a card. This has been pointed out multiple times. There is an answer to everything. Not a reason to not keep an eye on a certain card.
Yeap. But is it okay that decks that were already working, had potential to grow, and already contained win cons can just add a kiki for an extra random 'oops, I win' combo? I think it's very dull and doesn't make the format any more interesting. It's probably personal and that's why I clearly said it's not a problem right now.
With any other combo that could be added to certain decks I don't think I would have a problem. The 'oops, I win' factor that's being added to more and more decks, is just strange. The fact that it's only a 2 toughness creature has nothing to do with it. Answers are NEVER a reason to ban or not ban a card. This has been pointed out multiple times. There is an answer to everything. Not a reason to not keep an eye on a certain card.
It is an "oops I win", or "oops what the hell am I doing with this useless 5-mana brick in my hand?!?"-card. It really depends on the deck. Travis Woo was using it in a Shaman deck, and as much as I like to have as many Rage Forgers as possible in such a deck, I think it is just a win-more card and I would never play it. Probably it is in most decks just a win-more card and the only thing it is doing, is winning more.
The "oops I win" factor is a large part of the issue I think. At least when pod goes infinite the parts are played over multiple turns so you can see it coming, not end of turn pestermite, next turn splinter. Having this as a backdrop to a tempo plan doesn't really make the situation with it any better btw. Ponder and preordain DEFINITELY aren't safe.
Yeap. But is it okay that decks that were already working, had potential to grow, and already contained win cons can just add a kiki for an extra random 'oops, I win' combo? I think it's very dull and doesn't make the format any more interesting. It's probably personal and that's why I clearly said it's not a problem right now.
With any other combo that could be added to certain decks I don't think I would have a problem. The 'oops, I win' factor that's being added to more and more decks, is just strange. The fact that it's only a 2 toughness creature has nothing to do with it. Answers are NEVER a reason to ban or not ban a card. This has been pointed out multiple times. There is an answer to everything. Not a reason to not keep an eye on a certain card.
It is an "oops I win", or "oops what the hell am I doing with this useless 5-mana brick in my hand?!?"-card. It really depends on the deck. Travis Woo was using it in a Shaman deck, and as much as I like to have as many Rage Forgers as possible in such a deck, I think it is just a win-more card and I would never play it. Probably it is in most decks just a win-more card and the only thing it is doing, is winning more.
The "oops I win" factor is a large part of the issue I think. At least when pod goes infinite the parts are played over multiple turns so you can see it coming, not end of turn pestermite, next turn splinter. Having this as a backdrop to a tempo plan doesn't really make the situation with it any better btw. Ponder and preordain DEFINITELY aren't safe.
If Splinter Twin was banned Preordain would be safe, and possibly Ponder too.
I think Pod is more of a bannable card than either Twin or Kiki (LOLtastic that some people could think this card could be banned) They just hate playing against it. That's all.
BBE should not come back. That card does unfair things. When it was standard legal it was overpowered but lack of overpowered things it could cascade into made it playable. In this cardpool..just no.
I would like SoTM to come back. NEver got a chance to play with it and as a W/b tokens player it would fit in nice with my deck. Is this card really that powerful to necessitate a ban.
I think Pod is more of a bannable card than either Twin or Kiki (LOLtastic that some people could think this card could be banned) They just hate playing against it. That's all.
BBE should not come back. That card does unfair things. When it was standard legal it was overpowered but lack of overpowered things it could cascade into made it playable. In this cardpool..just no.
I would like SoTM to come back. NEver got a chance to play with it and as a W/b tokens player it would fit in nice with my deck. Is this card really that powerful to necessitate a ban.
Birthing Pod isn't getting banned. Sure WotC can get away with stabbing Jund multiple times and only have a minority get upset, but in the end they can't fully remove Jund completely from the format because of its versatility. Banning Birthing Pod ( or Splinter Twin ) on the other hand will completely destroy an entire deck that is unique to Modern and worse tarnish this format's reputation.
Really, Bloodbraid Elf does unfair things? Sure you can cascade into some really great stuff, or you could cascade into
nothing useful at all. Why do a lot of people just assume that Bloodbraid Elf is going to cascade
into crazy advantage, every time. Bloodbraid Elf is still random, even if you build around maximizing your odds. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't read "search your deck and cast Liliana of the Veil."
I have nothing against Sword of the Meek being unbanned, but not at this time. The format already has enough combo, but
not enough control and aggro.
Edit: I don't chime in that often anymore, but I see Valanarch is doing the good fight for things like BBE and Preordain/Ponder.
I think Pod is more of a bannable card than either Twin or Kiki (LOLtastic that some people could think this card could be banned) They just hate playing against it. That's all.
BBE should not come back. That card does unfair things. When it was standard legal it was overpowered but lack of overpowered things it could cascade into made it playable. In this cardpool..just no.
What unfair things does it do? Remember that it is random.
I would like SoTM to come back. NEver got a chance to play with it and as a W/b tokens player it would fit in nice with my deck. Is this card really that powerful to necessitate a ban.
I used to be for it, but I personally think that Chrome Mox would be a better thing to unban. I could be wrong though and wouldn't mind it being unbanned.
I have nothing against Sword of the Meek being unbanned, but not at this time. The format already has enough combo, but
not enough control and aggro.
Sword of the meek is a control card. Its combo is a slow control win. It is something that would help control. The problem is that it would weaken aggro.
My ideal banned list changes next week after large amounts of discussion and reading the forums are as follows:
Ban; Nothing/Birthing Pod
Unban; Green Sun's Zenith, Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari-Grave Troll, Sword of the Meek.
I feel as if Bloodbraid, and Grave Troll are large jokes on this list at the moment, the other two are obviously debatable, but I believe that Sword of the Meek should be unbanned, anything that sucks more than Valakut, and can't even outrace Splinter Twin has no right to be on the banned list. It could give variance to a new control deck which is artifact based.
Green Sun's Zenith is my desperate hope for a Bant Midranged deck to be viable along with Elves Combo.
I cried manly tears when Green Sun's Zenith was banned.
@Valanarch:
It's true that SotM is kind of slow compared to Splinter Twin, but I feel there are much better cards that
could support control directly by coming off, like Ancestral Visions. Like I said, I have nothing against SotM and I wouldn't mind seeing it unbanned.
To be fair, most people who don't want to see Ancestral Visions unbanned probably don't want
to see anything good come Blue's way. Like play U and win magic.
All you have to do is sleeve up 56 Islands and 4 Jace, the Mind Sculptors and go to down.
BBE went on the list not as a problematic card but to appease the meta. At the time Jund was the king of the format, by a long shot. 33% of the field is not healthy, and they knew something had to be done. In all fairness, BBE ended up working out well as the ban. It gave Jund a lot of power and didn't kill the deck when it was banned. Heck, I still thought it was the best deck until the DRS ban. It's possible that BBE is okay for them now, since I think many of us agree DRS is a better card than BBE. I don't particularly recall pre-DRS Jund being bonkers.
I think Pod is more of a bannable card than either Twin or Kiki (LOLtastic that some people could think this card could be banned) They just hate playing against it. That's all.
BBE should not come back. That card does unfair things. When it was standard legal it was overpowered but lack of overpowered things it could cascade into made it playable. In this cardpool..just no.
I would like SoTM to come back. NEver got a chance to play with it and as a W/b tokens player it would fit in nice with my deck. Is this card really that powerful to necessitate a ban.
Birthing Pod isn't getting banned. Sure WotC can get away with stabbing Jund multiple times and only have a minority get upset, but in the end they can't fully remove Jund completely from the format because of its versatility. Banning Birthing Pod ( or Splinter Twin ) on the other hand will completely destroy an entire deck that is unique to Modern and worse tarnish this format's reputation.
Really, Bloodbraid Elf does unfair things? Sure you can cascade into some really great stuff, or you could cascade into
nothing useful at all. Why do a lot of people just assume that Bloodbraid Elf is going to cascade
into crazy advantage, every time. Bloodbraid Elf is still random, even if you build around maximizing your odds. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't read "search your deck and cast Liliana of the Veil."
I have nothing against Sword of the Meek being unbanned, but not at this time. The format already has enough combo, but
not enough control and aggro.
Edit: I don't chime in that often anymore, but I see Valanarch is doing the good fight for things like BBE and Preordain/Ponder.
What about the argument that have BBE out increases diversity in that archtype. Yes it is random but with so many powerful cmc3 or less cards it can do what I call..unfair things. for 2GR you get a 3/2 haste with a possiblity of Goyf,Lilly,Bolt etc. When I say it decreases diversity I also mean that not only does it become an auot 4 of but the cards underneath it become less diverse as well.
Also I just hate the cascade mechanic as well. So I do have a bias.
The idea of GSZ coming off is laughable. Is it a fun card? Sure...but it is way way overpowered.
Bitterblossom as mentioned, has come off and fit just fine in the format. Hell I even think Jace would be fine in the format.
Would I like to play with Chrome mox..sure..but I cannot see that card come off anytime soon.
I think Pod is more of a bannable card than either Twin or Kiki (LOLtastic that some people could think this card could be banned) They just hate playing against it. That's all.
BBE should not come back. That card does unfair things. When it was standard legal it was overpowered but lack of overpowered things it could cascade into made it playable. In this cardpool..just no.
I would like SoTM to come back. NEver got a chance to play with it and as a W/b tokens player it would fit in nice with my deck. Is this card really that powerful to necessitate a ban.
Birthing Pod isn't getting banned. Sure WotC can get away with stabbing Jund multiple times and only have a minority get upset, but in the end they can't fully remove Jund completely from the format because of its versatility. Banning Birthing Pod ( or Splinter Twin ) on the other hand will completely destroy an entire deck that is unique to Modern and worse tarnish this format's reputation.
Really, Bloodbraid Elf does unfair things? Sure you can cascade into some really great stuff, or you could cascade into
nothing useful at all. Why do a lot of people just assume that Bloodbraid Elf is going to cascade
into crazy advantage, every time. Bloodbraid Elf is still random, even if you build around maximizing your odds. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't read "search your deck and cast Liliana of the Veil."
I have nothing against Sword of the Meek being unbanned, but not at this time. The format already has enough combo, but
not enough control and aggro.
Edit: I don't chime in that often anymore, but I see Valanarch is doing the good fight for things like BBE and Preordain/Ponder.
What about the argument that have BBE out increases diversity in that archtype.
In BBE jund how does BBE "whiff"? It's either value or stupid value 90% of the time. It's also an absolutely thoughtless card that is an auto include you just windmill slam onto the field for value.
o you guys think that modern could use bannings of such cards as Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and/or Splinter Twin? I just feel that if your deck isnt some sort of Twin deck, birthing pod, or affinity, you have a disadvantage. The reason I asked only of Twin cards because of thier existence in modern, you need a turn 4 game changing card, or your deck doesnt seem to make the cut. Im also not saying that the deck(s) arent beatable, as there are many counters to these decks and cards.
But lets say we do ban Splinter twin and Kiki-Jiki. This leaves us with the conclusion that other decks will rise to the top nevertheless (Melira infinite will still exist). But I will argue that this could possibly break open more diversity in the format. Affinity can become the fastest deck, but because aggro traditionally loses to midrange, more mid range decks could emerge. This in turn could allow for more control decks to emerge as well (as control seems to be dying out in modern anyways) because of thier strength against certain aggro and midrange decks, along with being able to possibly out last Melira Pod decks.
I've just read the last couple of pages, but honestly some people just seem clueless.
Ponder and preordain were not just good because of Twin. In fact, if they came back, Storm would benefit from that far more than Twin does. These cards make card selection incredibly easy, making any degenerate strategy that much better.
There was a comment made about Sword of the Meek being unbannable but not yet because there aren't many control decks. Hah. If SotM was unbanned, control would be the biggest beneficiary. It's a combo with Thopter Foundry, but the result of the combo is much different from the infinite combos you see from Twin or Melira, or even stuff like Storm or Scapeshift.
So many non-Control players spouting control is fine, you have all the cards you need, good control cards can't be unbanned because of Combo decks (which all ready make up nearly 50% of the meta...), etc. etc. At least mention your bias in your posts - so many here don't want AV unbanned because they want control to be 1-5% of the meta because they don't like their opponents interacting with their deck and game plan. As for the definition of control - it is the leveraging of card advantage to prevent your opponent from advancing their game plan, while having win-cons fulfill multiple purposes and generally be difficult to interact with (e.g. man lands, shroud/hexproof creatures, or resilient threats like Batterskull). Control is not viable when all your options are 1 for 1's and variable 2 for 1's like Electrolyze. The card drawing suite in modern is atrocious. Awful. The best card draw spell is Esper Charm, but Esper is not a viable deck in the format. It has even more dead cards that you can't cycle from your hand (lack of Red means you're going to get stuck with too many smothers, disfigures, consume the meeks, etc.).
Right now, control is <10% of the meta. Leaving a major archetype out of an entire format is ridiculous. Creatures now far out pace control options, and many creatures come built with CA or resiliency. Control needs something like AV or FoF to keep parity with the creature power creep. I actually think Mystical Teachings is a really good card (and I run 2 in my UWR shell), but it's slow, and doesn't help you in the most critical times of the game - the first 6-8 turns. I don't like that Splinter-Twin and Kiki are used as justification to sweep an entire archetype out of a format. Perhaps they should ban Deceiver Exarch or Village Bell-Ringer (or both) to make the combo more susceptible and then give us Ponder/Preordain/AV to keep parity and also help Control.
Either that, or unban JtMS (since this would only help Control). As for the assertions that decks like RW.enchantment.dec is even remotely plausible...the amount of enchantment hate available in the format means this deck will forever be Tier 4.5 at best. If that is your idea of Control being healthy in Modern...SMDH. Yesterday at our Win-A-Box modern tournament there were roughly 4-5 UWR control decks out of 21 who showed and I was the only one who made it to top 8, and the others didn't even come close (and the meta wasn't filled with Tron, or other terrible MU's for us except for one Bogles deck). I routinely see this all the time. Also if you unban BBE and leave AV on the ban list...Control will become <2% of the meta. Have fun with that.
o you guys think that modern could use bannings of such cards as Kiki-Jiki, Mirror Breaker and/or Splinter Twin? I just feel that if your deck isnt some sort of Twin deck, birthing pod, or affinity, you have a disadvantage. The reason I asked only of Twin cards because of thier existence in modern, you need a turn 4 game changing card, or your deck doesnt seem to make the cut. Im also not saying that the deck(s) arent beatable, as there are many counters to these decks and cards.
But lets say we do ban Splinter twin and Kiki-Jiki. This leaves us with the conclusion that other decks will rise to the top nevertheless (Melira infinite will still exist). But I will argue that this could possibly break open more diversity in the format. Affinity can become the fastest deck, but because aggro traditionally loses to midrange, more mid range decks could emerge. This in turn could allow for more control decks to emerge as well (as control seems to be dying out in modern anyways) because of thier strength against certain aggro and midrange decks, along with being able to possibly out last Melira Pod decks.
I just don't get where this ban Twin or Kiki discussion keeps coming from, Twin is just fine once you figure out what to do against it (coming from someone who has both played with and against Twin). Playing against twin is like a puzzle in my opinion and requires constant analysis and thoughtful decision making. The deck doesn't break the format and it really seems like people are just lazy and don't like planning for it honestly, thus they want a ban as that makes things easiest on them. It would also be a terrible message to send if they were to ban it, as it would create distrust in the format and the fear that no good deck is safe from the ban-hammer.
I think one could put up some very convincing arguments that birthing pod is stronger and more busted than Green Sun's Zenith.
I'd like to hear said argument. Green suns pretty busted since it puts whatever you need into the battlefield whenever you want with no hoops other than mana cost to jump through. Pod is at least a build around, not an auto include in every green deck you build like green suns zenith.
I think one could put up some very convincing arguments that birthing pod is stronger and more busted than Green Sun's Zenith.
You're looking at a much too limited context if you feel that way. Birthing Pod really only works well in a deck dedicated to using it. Green Sun's Zenith fits into pretty much any deck with creatures and makes it better. Sure, in a Melira Pod deck Birthing Pod looks really good, but picture it in Zoo or G/W Hatebears. Not so good. If I remember right the reasoning for the ban was it made green decks very homogenous: GSZ was so good every green deck wanted to run it, and when you decide to run it you begin shaping the deck to abuse it. Birthing Pod on the other requires you to build the deck around it from the start, hence why we don't see it in any decks aside from the two established Pod builds. It's not something you just throw in an existing deck to make it better.
I think one could put up some very convincing arguments that birthing pod is stronger and more busted than Green Sun's Zenith.
I would love to be able to use GSZ as it would let you go turn 1 mana dork, turn 2 GSZ for Ethersworn Cannonist to not just lose on turn 3 against Storm, but it's probably not worth the tradeoff of what it would do to the format.
This is uh... Not a thing you can do... GSZ only gets green creatures.
I think one could put up some very convincing arguments that birthing pod is stronger and more busted than Green Sun's Zenith.
I'd like to hear said argument. Green suns pretty busted since it puts whatever you need into the battlefield whenever you want with no hoops other than mana cost to jump through. Pod is at least a build around, not an auto include in every green deck you build like green suns zenith.
Not every green deck would auto include GSZ, Jund didn't, Scapeshift wouldn't, RUG wouldn't.
Pod can be abused with persist and undying, allows you to grab any creature not just green creatures, and has some absurd and abusable chains that are found in both melira and kiki pod.
GSZ just allows you to run a less efficient tool box than pod, and the most broken thing with it is grabbing a dryad arbor on turn 1. It doesn't allow any instant wins that I'm aware of and is just inherently less abusable.
People are acting like GSZ is this absurd card, and it is. But it's not really that much more absurd than Pod, and there are definitely arguments that it is less busted.
I think one could put up some very convincing arguments that birthing pod is stronger and more busted than Green Sun's Zenith.
I would love to be able to use GSZ as it would let you go turn 1 mana dork, turn 2 GSZ for Ethersworn Cannonist to not just lose on turn 3 against Storm, but it's probably not worth the tradeoff of what it would do to the format.
This is uh... Not a thing you can do... GSZ only gets green creatures.
I think one could put up some very convincing arguments that birthing pod is stronger and more busted than Green Sun's Zenith.
I'd like to hear said argument. Green suns pretty busted since it puts whatever you need into the battlefield whenever you want with no hoops other than mana cost to jump through. Pod is at least a build around, not an auto include in every green deck you build like green suns zenith.
Not every green deck would auto include GSZ, Jund didn't, Scapeshift wouldn't, RUG wouldn't.
Pod can be abused with persist and undying, allows you to grab any creature not just green creatures, and has some absurd and abusable chains that are found in both melira and kiki pod.
GSZ just allows you to run a less efficient tool box than pod, and the most broken thing with it is grabbing a dryad arbor on turn 1. It doesn't allow any instant wins that I'm aware of and is just inherently less abusable.
It's a tutor to the battlefield for one additional mana for green. In what world is that not broken? Green already has good draw, it doesn't need good tutoring too. Geez and people say blue is the card that gets to do everything.
Just to restate, a tutor that is always a good draw at every stage of the game that puts it onto the battlefield is simply too powerful a card for modern.
You have to remember that Splinter Twin is the main cause for 3-4 cards being banned.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Yea it's just annoying how combos why blue can't have good draw forever now. I hope it was worth it storm and twin players >:(
that's not even considering that most twin lists are much more tempo oriented now, where they don't go off turn 4 and instead play a resource management game until they can safely protect their combo. these list run ~6ish exarch/pestermite, 4 splinter twin, 0 kiki jiki. the combo is just insurance to the (weaker) tempo plan the deck has.
Yeap. But is it okay that decks that were already working, had potential to grow, and already contained win cons can just add a kiki for an extra random 'oops, I win' combo? I think it's very dull and doesn't make the format any more interesting. It's probably personal and that's why I clearly said it's not a problem right now.
With any other combo that could be added to certain decks I don't think I would have a problem. The 'oops, I win' factor that's being added to more and more decks, is just strange. The fact that it's only a 2 toughness creature has nothing to do with it. Answers are NEVER a reason to ban or not ban a card. This has been pointed out multiple times. There is an answer to everything. Not a reason to not keep an eye on a certain card.
The "oops I win" factor is a large part of the issue I think. At least when pod goes infinite the parts are played over multiple turns so you can see it coming, not end of turn pestermite, next turn splinter. Having this as a backdrop to a tempo plan doesn't really make the situation with it any better btw. Ponder and preordain DEFINITELY aren't safe.
If Splinter Twin was banned Preordain would be safe, and possibly Ponder too.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
BBE should not come back. That card does unfair things. When it was standard legal it was overpowered but lack of overpowered things it could cascade into made it playable. In this cardpool..just no.
I would like SoTM to come back. NEver got a chance to play with it and as a W/b tokens player it would fit in nice with my deck. Is this card really that powerful to necessitate a ban.
Birthing Pod isn't getting banned. Sure WotC can get away with stabbing Jund multiple times and only have a minority get upset, but in the end they can't fully remove Jund completely from the format because of its versatility. Banning Birthing Pod ( or Splinter Twin ) on the other hand will completely destroy an entire deck that is unique to Modern and worse tarnish this format's reputation.
Really, Bloodbraid Elf does unfair things? Sure you can cascade into some really great stuff, or you could cascade into
nothing useful at all. Why do a lot of people just assume that Bloodbraid Elf is going to cascade
into crazy advantage, every time. Bloodbraid Elf is still random, even if you build around maximizing your odds. Bloodbraid Elf doesn't read "search your deck and cast Liliana of the Veil."
I have nothing against Sword of the Meek being unbanned, but not at this time. The format already has enough combo, but
not enough control and aggro.
Edit: I don't chime in that often anymore, but I see Valanarch is doing the good fight for things like BBE and Preordain/Ponder.
What unfair things does it do? Remember that it is random.
I used to be for it, but I personally think that Chrome Mox would be a better thing to unban. I could be wrong though and wouldn't mind it being unbanned.
Sword of the meek is a control card. Its combo is a slow control win. It is something that would help control. The problem is that it would weaken aggro.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Ban; Nothing/Birthing Pod
Unban; Green Sun's Zenith, Bloodbraid Elf, Golgari-Grave Troll, Sword of the Meek.
I feel as if Bloodbraid, and Grave Troll are large jokes on this list at the moment, the other two are obviously debatable, but I believe that Sword of the Meek should be unbanned, anything that sucks more than Valakut, and can't even outrace Splinter Twin has no right to be on the banned list. It could give variance to a new control deck which is artifact based.
Green Sun's Zenith is my desperate hope for a Bant Midranged deck to be viable along with Elves Combo.
@Valanarch:
It's true that SotM is kind of slow compared to Splinter Twin, but I feel there are much better cards that
could support control directly by coming off, like Ancestral Visions. Like I said, I have nothing against SotM and I wouldn't mind seeing it unbanned.
to see anything good come Blue's way. Like play U and win magic.
All you have to do is sleeve up 56 Islands and 4 Jace, the Mind Sculptors and go to down.
Grixis Death's Shadow, Jund, UW Tron, Jeskai Control, Storm, Counters Company, Eldrazi Tron, Affinity, Living End, Infect, Merfolk, Dredge, Ad Nauseam, Amulet, Bogles, Eldrazi Tron, Mono U Tron, Lantern, Mardu Pyromancer
What about the argument that have BBE out increases diversity in that archtype. Yes it is random but with so many powerful cmc3 or less cards it can do what I call..unfair things. for 2GR you get a 3/2 haste with a possiblity of Goyf,Lilly,Bolt etc. When I say it decreases diversity I also mean that not only does it become an auot 4 of but the cards underneath it become less diverse as well.
Also I just hate the cascade mechanic as well. So I do have a bias.
The idea of GSZ coming off is laughable. Is it a fun card? Sure...but it is way way overpowered.
Bitterblossom as mentioned, has come off and fit just fine in the format. Hell I even think Jace would be fine in the format.
Would I like to play with Chrome mox..sure..but I cannot see that card come off anytime soon.
Cards safe to come off
Jace
Grave-Troll
SoTM
AV
PF
Preordain
In BBE jund how does BBE "whiff"? It's either value or stupid value 90% of the time. It's also an absolutely thoughtless card that is an auto include you just windmill slam onto the field for value.
But lets say we do ban Splinter twin and Kiki-Jiki. This leaves us with the conclusion that other decks will rise to the top nevertheless (Melira infinite will still exist). But I will argue that this could possibly break open more diversity in the format. Affinity can become the fastest deck, but because aggro traditionally loses to midrange, more mid range decks could emerge. This in turn could allow for more control decks to emerge as well (as control seems to be dying out in modern anyways) because of thier strength against certain aggro and midrange decks, along with being able to possibly out last Melira Pod decks.
URStormRU
GRTitanshift[mana]RG/mana]
Ponder and preordain were not just good because of Twin. In fact, if they came back, Storm would benefit from that far more than Twin does. These cards make card selection incredibly easy, making any degenerate strategy that much better.
There was a comment made about Sword of the Meek being unbannable but not yet because there aren't many control decks. Hah. If SotM was unbanned, control would be the biggest beneficiary. It's a combo with Thopter Foundry, but the result of the combo is much different from the infinite combos you see from Twin or Melira, or even stuff like Storm or Scapeshift.
Right now, control is <10% of the meta. Leaving a major archetype out of an entire format is ridiculous. Creatures now far out pace control options, and many creatures come built with CA or resiliency. Control needs something like AV or FoF to keep parity with the creature power creep. I actually think Mystical Teachings is a really good card (and I run 2 in my UWR shell), but it's slow, and doesn't help you in the most critical times of the game - the first 6-8 turns. I don't like that Splinter-Twin and Kiki are used as justification to sweep an entire archetype out of a format. Perhaps they should ban Deceiver Exarch or Village Bell-Ringer (or both) to make the combo more susceptible and then give us Ponder/Preordain/AV to keep parity and also help Control.
Either that, or unban JtMS (since this would only help Control). As for the assertions that decks like RW.enchantment.dec is even remotely plausible...the amount of enchantment hate available in the format means this deck will forever be Tier 4.5 at best. If that is your idea of Control being healthy in Modern...SMDH. Yesterday at our Win-A-Box modern tournament there were roughly 4-5 UWR control decks out of 21 who showed and I was the only one who made it to top 8, and the others didn't even come close (and the meta wasn't filled with Tron, or other terrible MU's for us except for one Bogles deck). I routinely see this all the time. Also if you unban BBE and leave AV on the ban list...Control will become <2% of the meta. Have fun with that.
I just don't get where this ban Twin or Kiki discussion keeps coming from, Twin is just fine once you figure out what to do against it (coming from someone who has both played with and against Twin). Playing against twin is like a puzzle in my opinion and requires constant analysis and thoughtful decision making. The deck doesn't break the format and it really seems like people are just lazy and don't like planning for it honestly, thus they want a ban as that makes things easiest on them. It would also be a terrible message to send if they were to ban it, as it would create distrust in the format and the fear that no good deck is safe from the ban-hammer.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
I'd like to hear said argument. Green suns pretty busted since it puts whatever you need into the battlefield whenever you want with no hoops other than mana cost to jump through. Pod is at least a build around, not an auto include in every green deck you build like green suns zenith.
You're looking at a much too limited context if you feel that way. Birthing Pod really only works well in a deck dedicated to using it. Green Sun's Zenith fits into pretty much any deck with creatures and makes it better. Sure, in a Melira Pod deck Birthing Pod looks really good, but picture it in Zoo or G/W Hatebears. Not so good. If I remember right the reasoning for the ban was it made green decks very homogenous: GSZ was so good every green deck wanted to run it, and when you decide to run it you begin shaping the deck to abuse it. Birthing Pod on the other requires you to build the deck around it from the start, hence why we don't see it in any decks aside from the two established Pod builds. It's not something you just throw in an existing deck to make it better.
'78 CB750F, '09 CBR600RR
This is uh... Not a thing you can do... GSZ only gets green creatures.
Not every green deck would auto include GSZ, Jund didn't, Scapeshift wouldn't, RUG wouldn't.
Pod can be abused with persist and undying, allows you to grab any creature not just green creatures, and has some absurd and abusable chains that are found in both melira and kiki pod.
GSZ just allows you to run a less efficient tool box than pod, and the most broken thing with it is grabbing a dryad arbor on turn 1. It doesn't allow any instant wins that I'm aware of and is just inherently less abusable.
People are acting like GSZ is this absurd card, and it is. But it's not really that much more absurd than Pod, and there are definitely arguments that it is less busted.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
It's a tutor to the battlefield for one additional mana for green. In what world is that not broken? Green already has good draw, it doesn't need good tutoring too. Geez and people say blue is the card that gets to do everything.
Just to restate, a tutor that is always a good draw at every stage of the game that puts it onto the battlefield is simply too powerful a card for modern.