This is where you and I disagree. You can not look at cards in a vacuum and say they are fair cards. You have to look at the interactions and what the card enables in the format and ban because of unfair interactions/enabling.
Yes, and while one of them only has a problematic interaction with the other, the other has a problematic interaction with 20 different cards including the first. It's not just them in a vacuum. If tutors are fair, they are fair. And Seething Song is no better than Desparate Ritual. They both cause a broken interaction with the same thing, and with nothing else. There is a common factor there, and it is neither of the singular rituals.
To put it simply. If A, B, C, D, E, and X exist. A is broken with X, B is broken with X, C,D,E are all broken with X, but A+B+C+D+E is perfectly fine, it should be obvious where the problem is. And yet thus far Wizards has banned A, B, and C. And even if they eventually deal with D and E, they will eventually print F, G, and H, which will all similarly break with X.
Alright Ness. You are starting to reach Bocephus heights of just blatant annoyance. Grapeshot is NOT the problem. The entire deck functions solely on the power of Past In Flames and Pyromancer's Ascension. Those are the engine cards. Without those, there is no deck. Without Grapeshot, there is a slightly worse deck.
While you might be right, can we agree that the problematic cards are not the cantrips and rituals?
Fast mana is a problem in a format with a turn restriction. Too many available to the players will lead to decks too fast for the format, as been proven.
Good cantrips (P&P) allow for decks to be too consistent. Consistency tilts/warps the format. Its quite clear Wotc does not want the format dominated by a certain color, cantrips would shift this thinking.
Quote from NessOnett »
Yes, and while one of them only has a problematic interaction with the other, the other has a problematic interaction with 20 different cards including the first. It's not just them in a vacuum. If tutors are fair, they are fair. And Seething Song is no better than Desparate Ritual. They both cause a broken interaction with the same thing, and with nothing else. There is a common factor there, and it is neither of the singular rituals.
To put it simply. If A, B, C, D, E, and X exist. A is broken with X, B is broken with X, C,D,E are all broken with X, but A+B+C+D+E is perfectly fine, it should be obvious where the problem is. And yet thus far Wizards has banned A, B, and C. And even if they eventually deal with D and E, they will eventually print F, G, and H, which will all similarly break with X.
Wotc has always banned enablers, not the card the enablers break. Hence why we have the SFM ban and not bustedskull.
Haven't you yourself said that Preordain shouldn't be banned? Also, as you said, Wizards bans the enablers. The rituals and cantrips aren't the enablers. The engines (Pyromancer Ascension, Goblin Electromancer, Past in Flames, Epic Experiment, Pyromancer's Swath) and wincons (Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens) are the enablers. The rituals only broke the turn 4 rule consistently in Storm. The cantrips only allowed turn 3 wins in Storm (and Shoal Infect, but that is banned anyways). They enabled several decks that were killed when they were banned. Also, the Storm cards and engines being in the format means that Wizards can no longer print good library manipulation or fast mana. So why were the rituals and cantrips banned when they weren't they weren't the enablers?
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
The real question with it is whether it would be too powerful with Knight of the Reliquary in Big Zoo. However, either way I wouldn't support its unbanning. I believe that it, Sword of the Meek, and Chrome Mox could all come off, provided that neither of the other two do. I also believe that Sword of the Meek and Chrome Mox would be better for the format than Dark Depths would be.
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
All you really need is Depths, Urborg, and either Vampire Hexmage or Thespian's Stage, and for the HexDepths plan you can recur it all with Grim Discovery.
After that the trick is to find three cards before you go to zero, and even if they get rid of Marit Lage you can just dig out another Depths and do it all again with little difficulty.
It's like Tron if Tron could oneshot people within three lands.
...you could probably keep it in check with repeated use of Ghost Quarter, but the fact is that it can power out Marit Lage and no amount of "but it's ok it still dies to Path" really makes a game state of "turn 2/3: answer this or die" an ok thing.
I say this while aware of the hypocrisy of me being ok with Griselcannon, mind you.
But then again Marit Lage is a self-contained 20/20.
No Fury of the Horde needed here, no risk of whiff once online. Interact or die.
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
The problem with Depths, and the reason why it got banned, is that you can take a relatively fair tempo or midrange deck(say, UR for example), and just slot in the combo for only a few slots. And with every other components being useful in their own right(say, low cost creatures with decent bodies and a utility effects), the deck overall has a very solid fair game. But then, it can suddenly just pull out instant free-win scenarios with no setup to the point where if you don't have an answer(like removal spell), you lose on the spot. So you have to hold onto value cards, and potentially leave mana open because using your cards or tapping out could cause you to instantly lose, which advances their 'fair' game to an even stronger position.
Good thing they banned Depths, because as it stands, there's certainly no decks in Modern anymore that have this issue. Definitely not a single tempo deck that has the potential to just pull out free wins if you ever tap out against it. And especially not with a 2-card combo, one of which is a fairly useful creature in its own right. Nope. No sir. Not at all. Not even a little.
(Hopefully the sarcasm in this was not lost on people just because it was in text form)
Haven't you yourself said that Preordain shouldn't be banned? Also, as you said, Wizards bans the enablers. The rituals and cantrips aren't the enablers. The engines (Pyromancer Ascension, Goblin Electromancer, Past in Flames, Epic Experiment, Pyromancer's Swath) and wincons (Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens) are the enablers. The rituals only broke the turn 4 rule consistently in Storm. The cantrips only allowed turn 3 wins in Storm (and Shoal Infect, but that is banned anyways). They enabled several decks that were killed when they were banned. Also, the Storm cards and engines being in the format means that Wizards can no longer print good library manipulation or fast mana. So why were the rituals and cantrips banned when they weren't they weren't the enablers?
My thinking on preordain was prior to Twin being what it is. Twin does not need more consistency. As long as we have Twin doing as well as it is in larger events and on line, we will not see P&P off the list unless something is printed or guidelines are changed for the format.
Fast mana does enable decks to break the turn 4 rule. Fast mana is an enabler. Without the fast mana, the cards you speak of are not as good. Thats what an enabler does, makes other cards better and more dangerous.
I dunno man, what good is Thespian's Stage by itself in the average deck?
I could see Amulet Ramp side in a DD package but if you're playing DD unfairly you're gonna have to run at least one other card that'd telegraph your intentions pretty well to your opponent.
Also I find Sword to be the stronger parallel to Twin.
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
The problem with Depths, and the reason why it got banned, is that you can take a relatively fair tempo or midrange deck(say, UR for example), and just slot in the combo for only a few slots. And with every other components being useful in their own right(say, low cost creatures with decent bodies and a utility effects), the deck overall has a very solid fair game. But then, it can suddenly just pull out instant free-win scenarios with no setup to the point where if you don't have an answer(like removal spell), you lose on the spot. So you have to hold onto value cards, and potentially leave mana open because using your cards or tapping out could cause you to instantly lose, which advances their 'fair' game to an even stronger position.
Good thing they banned Depths, because as it stands, there's certainly no decks in Modern anymore that have this issue. Definitely not a single tempo deck that has the potential to just pull out free wins if you ever tap out against it. And especially not with a 2-card combo, one of which is a fairly useful creature in its own right. Nope. No sir. Not at all. Not even a little.
(Hopefully the sarcasm in this was not lost on people just because it was in text form)
While I recognize that you were being sarcastic, that only applies now that Thespian's Stage exists. Before that it only could work in black decks.
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
The problem with Depths, and the reason why it got banned, is that you can take a relatively fair tempo or midrange deck(say, UR for example), and just slot in the combo for only a few slots. And with every other components being useful in their own right(say, low cost creatures with decent bodies and a utility effects), the deck overall has a very solid fair game. But then, it can suddenly just pull out instant free-win scenarios with no setup to the point where if you don't have an answer(like removal spell), you lose on the spot. So you have to hold onto value cards, and potentially leave mana open because using your cards or tapping out could cause you to instantly lose, which advances their 'fair' game to an even stronger position.
Good thing they banned Depths, because as it stands, there's certainly no decks in Modern anymore that have this issue. Definitely not a single tempo deck that has the potential to just pull out free wins if you ever tap out against it. And especially not with a 2-card combo, one of which is a fairly useful creature in its own right. Nope. No sir. Not at all. Not even a little.
(Hopefully the sarcasm in this was not lost on people just because it was in text form)
While I recognize that you were being sarcastic, that only applies now that Thespian's Stage exists. Before that it only could work in black decks.
Well, DD may have been primarily in black decks. But if, hypothetically, some other deck came along that happened to violate the exact same criteria that Depths was banned for violating, and if it just happened to, by chance, be a UR deck, then it would stand to reason that Wizards would want to take similar action against that deck that it did against Depths. Consistency, it's what the format needs to regain "player confidence."
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
All you really need is Depths, Urborg, and either Vampire Hexmage or Thespian's Stage, and for the HexDepths plan you can recur it all with Grim Discovery.
After that the trick is to find three cards before you go to zero, and even if they get rid of Marit Lage you can just dig out another Depths and do it all again with little difficulty.
It's like Tron if Tron could oneshot people within three lands.
...you could probably keep it in check with repeated use of Ghost Quarter, but the fact is that it can power out Marit Lage and no amount of "but it's ok it still dies to Path" really makes a game state of "turn 2/3: answer this or die" an ok thing.
I say this while aware of the hypocrisy of me being ok with Griselcannon, mind you.
But then again Marit Lage is a self-contained 20/20.
No Fury of the Horde needed here, no risk of whiff once online. Interact or die.
Yes, you need three specific cards to pull off a turbo win (turn 1 Depths, turn 2 Urborg + hexmage, attack with 20/20 turn 3). How consistent is that? There is no ability to help sculpt your hand in this scenario, so it's entirely on your luck to draw into your specific 3 cards in your opening 7 (I wouldn't lead with depths unless I had all 3 of these, or at least urborg). Stage instead of Hexmage pushes you back to turn 3 to trigger. You also lose out on pretty much all of the fast mana to accelerate it, like you have for the legacy turbo depths decks.
Knight of the Reliquary decks actually could also be problematic, but even then you're looking at a turn 4 trigger, turn 5 swing (turn 1 birds, turn 2 knight, turn 3 turn land into depths, turn 4 turn land into stage, trigger). Knight is pretty susceptible to interaction the whole time here, plus the fact that you really haven't done much (though after turn 2 you're not really spending mana to do this, and can just knight activation at the end of your opponent's turn). It would give big zoo another interesting option, but would it really be any more problematic than tempo twin that can just threaten to win out of nowhere and is harder to interact with?
Even slotting it into a fair deck (not using Knight), you still have Stage which is a weak draw and Depths which is a dead draw for the most part until you draw into a stage or spend a total of 30 mana that you just had lying around.
Go to my blog, Musings of the False God, for in-depth guides playing the game, from the building blocks of deck design to deceiving your opponent through clever game play!
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Do the next best thing before adding U for card draw:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
52 card deck?
52 card deck.
I just threw together a deck of 4 each of Depths, Stage, Hexmage, Probe, Wraith, Spirit Guide, and then the rest just swamps to see how often Cockatrice gave me a turn 2 or 3 combo. It was ~40% not counting the fact that you make some questionable keeps (you have 2 pieces and a draw or two, and then whiff and lose). Granted, this is not truly accurate as I didn't do that many repetitions, nor did I do any math to figure out the exact probability of getting depths, urborg, and either a hexmage or stage in a 52 card deck.
That said couldn't you do the same exact thing running 4 birds, 4 heirarchs, 4 deceiver exarch, 4 splinter twin, 4 probe, 4 wraith? This is a turn 3 win combo when you get it, and a loss when you don't. This is the same kind of situation that we're talking about, just more open to interaction....
Do the next best thing before adding U for card draw:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
52 card deck?
52 card deck.
That said couldn't you do the same exact thing running 4 birds, 4 heirarchs, 4 deceiver exarch, 4 splinter twin, 4 probe, 4 wraith? This is a turn 3 win combo when you get it, and a loss when you don't. This is the same kind of situation that we're talking about, just more open to interaction....
At this point in time...you may wish to choose a different example. Perhaps one that is not under the ban microscope for the exact same reason as why DD was axed in the first place.
Do the next best thing before adding U for card draw:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
52 card deck?
52 card deck.
That said couldn't you do the same exact thing running 4 birds, 4 heirarchs, 4 deceiver exarch, 4 splinter twin, 4 probe, 4 wraith? This is a turn 3 win combo when you get it, and a loss when you don't. This is the same kind of situation that we're talking about, just more open to interaction....
At this point in time...you may wish to choose a different example. Perhaps one that is not under the ban microscope for the exact same reason as why DD was axed in the first place.
I don't think the speed of Twin is a reason it may ever be considered....
Do the next best thing before adding U for card draw:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
52 card deck?
52 card deck.
That said couldn't you do the same exact thing running 4 birds, 4 heirarchs, 4 deceiver exarch, 4 splinter twin, 4 probe, 4 wraith? This is a turn 3 win combo when you get it, and a loss when you don't. This is the same kind of situation that we're talking about, just more open to interaction....
At this point in time...you may wish to choose a different example. Perhaps one that is not under the ban microscope for the exact same reason as why DD was axed in the first place.
I don't think the speed of Twin is a reason it may ever be considered....
Do the next best thing before adding U for card draw:
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
52 card deck?
52 card deck.
That said couldn't you do the same exact thing running 4 birds, 4 heirarchs, 4 deceiver exarch, 4 splinter twin, 4 probe, 4 wraith? This is a turn 3 win combo when you get it, and a loss when you don't. This is the same kind of situation that we're talking about, just more open to interaction....
At this point in time...you may wish to choose a different example. Perhaps one that is not under the ban microscope for the exact same reason as why DD was axed in the first place.
I don't think the speed of Twin is a reason it may ever be considered....
Jace, SoM, AV, BBE, PF, Jitte, Skullclamp...
Speed is not the only thing that qualifies cards for banning.
But yeah, DD was not banned because of fast wins, it was banned because it was a very low-commitment combo that offered free and sudden wins out of nowhere. Without being a very big detriment to the strategy of the rest of the deck.
I'm not seeing Dark Depths coming off for Modern.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
The problem with Depths, and the reason why it got banned, is that you can take a relatively fair tempo or midrange deck(say, UR for example), and just slot in the combo for only a few slots. And with every other components being useful in their own right(say, low cost creatures with decent bodies and a utility effects), the deck overall has a very solid fair game. But then, it can suddenly just pull out instant free-win scenarios with no setup to the point where if you don't have an answer(like removal spell), you lose on the spot. So you have to hold onto value cards, and potentially leave mana open because using your cards or tapping out could cause you to instantly lose, which advances their 'fair' game to an even stronger position.
Good thing they banned Depths, because as it stands, there's certainly no decks in Modern anymore that have this issue. Definitely not a single tempo deck that has the potential to just pull out free wins if you ever tap out against it. And especially not with a 2-card combo, one of which is a fairly useful creature in its own right. Nope. No sir. Not at all. Not even a little.
(Hopefully the sarcasm in this was not lost on people just because it was in text form)
Please don't discuss about unbanning more combo cards, we already have too much combo.
I'm starting to sympathize with the storm haters... it's getting annoying, and on mtgo it's so cheap that everyone and their mother has the deck.
It's probably pyromancer ascension that is the best card in storm decks, so it would likely be the next to go.
But it is vulnerable to removal. Not as much removal as goblin, but being a permanent it is sill hit by abrupt decay
Still I don't think anything should be hit in storm. It's still a pretty difficult deck to play an master which is a good thing, and it doesn't consistently win turn 3. Turn 4 yes but not 3
Storm is really the only legacy-esque combo left in modern and the backlash from banning it would be huge, especially if they want to get legacy players into the format
The only reason storm is really a concern is the fact that a ton of people hate playing against it. Not just losing to it, but playing against it at all. Hate it a lot. Fortunately, I think it's fair enough, right now, that it'll survive for a while.
Please don't discuss about unbanning more combo cards, we already have too much combo.
I'm starting to sympathize with the storm haters... it's getting annoying, and on mtgo it's so cheap that everyone and their mother has the deck.
Bit too easily broken, that card.
Haven't you yourself said that Preordain shouldn't be banned? Also, as you said, Wizards bans the enablers. The rituals and cantrips aren't the enablers. The engines (Pyromancer Ascension, Goblin Electromancer, Past in Flames, Epic Experiment, Pyromancer's Swath) and wincons (Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens) are the enablers. The rituals only broke the turn 4 rule consistently in Storm. The cantrips only allowed turn 3 wins in Storm (and Shoal Infect, but that is banned anyways). They enabled several decks that were killed when they were banned. Also, the Storm cards and engines being in the format means that Wizards can no longer print good library manipulation or fast mana. So why were the rituals and cantrips banned when they weren't they weren't the enablers?
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
I'm not sure I'd agree with you. As an all-in combo I think it's worse than a number of other options (Goryo's Vengenace as an example), and as a win condition it's still 2 cards that are needed. Sure, it would be really good in a Life from the Loam deck, and pretty reasonable I think in a deck with Gifts Ungiven (get Crucible, Depths, Stage, and something else to get one back). I don't see the all-in version being that scary though, even though the only real interaction to a turn 2-3 Depths trigger is to have a Path handy (but then the Depths deck just loses).
The real question with it is whether it would be too powerful with Knight of the Reliquary in Big Zoo. However, either way I wouldn't support its unbanning. I believe that it, Sword of the Meek, and Chrome Mox could all come off, provided that neither of the other two do. I also believe that Sword of the Meek and Chrome Mox would be better for the format than Dark Depths would be.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
All you really need is Depths, Urborg, and either Vampire Hexmage or Thespian's Stage, and for the HexDepths plan you can recur it all with Grim Discovery.
After that the trick is to find three cards before you go to zero, and even if they get rid of Marit Lage you can just dig out another Depths and do it all again with little difficulty.
It's like Tron if Tron could oneshot people within three lands.
...you could probably keep it in check with repeated use of Ghost Quarter, but the fact is that it can power out Marit Lage and no amount of "but it's ok it still dies to Path" really makes a game state of "turn 2/3: answer this or die" an ok thing.
I say this while aware of the hypocrisy of me being ok with Griselcannon, mind you.
But then again Marit Lage is a self-contained 20/20.
No Fury of the Horde needed here, no risk of whiff once online. Interact or die.
The problem with Depths, and the reason why it got banned, is that you can take a relatively fair tempo or midrange deck(say, UR for example), and just slot in the combo for only a few slots. And with every other components being useful in their own right(say, low cost creatures with decent bodies and a utility effects), the deck overall has a very solid fair game. But then, it can suddenly just pull out instant free-win scenarios with no setup to the point where if you don't have an answer(like removal spell), you lose on the spot. So you have to hold onto value cards, and potentially leave mana open because using your cards or tapping out could cause you to instantly lose, which advances their 'fair' game to an even stronger position.
Good thing they banned Depths, because as it stands, there's certainly no decks in Modern anymore that have this issue. Definitely not a single tempo deck that has the potential to just pull out free wins if you ever tap out against it. And especially not with a 2-card combo, one of which is a fairly useful creature in its own right. Nope. No sir. Not at all. Not even a little.
(Hopefully the sarcasm in this was not lost on people just because it was in text form)
My thinking on preordain was prior to Twin being what it is. Twin does not need more consistency. As long as we have Twin doing as well as it is in larger events and on line, we will not see P&P off the list unless something is printed or guidelines are changed for the format.
Fast mana does enable decks to break the turn 4 rule. Fast mana is an enabler. Without the fast mana, the cards you speak of are not as good. Thats what an enabler does, makes other cards better and more dangerous.
I could see Amulet Ramp side in a DD package but if you're playing DD unfairly you're gonna have to run at least one other card that'd telegraph your intentions pretty well to your opponent.
Also I find Sword to be the stronger parallel to Twin.
While I recognize that you were being sarcastic, that only applies now that Thespian's Stage exists. Before that it only could work in black decks.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Well, DD may have been primarily in black decks. But if, hypothetically, some other deck came along that happened to violate the exact same criteria that Depths was banned for violating, and if it just happened to, by chance, be a UR deck, then it would stand to reason that Wizards would want to take similar action against that deck that it did against Depths. Consistency, it's what the format needs to regain "player confidence."
Yes, you need three specific cards to pull off a turbo win (turn 1 Depths, turn 2 Urborg + hexmage, attack with 20/20 turn 3). How consistent is that? There is no ability to help sculpt your hand in this scenario, so it's entirely on your luck to draw into your specific 3 cards in your opening 7 (I wouldn't lead with depths unless I had all 3 of these, or at least urborg). Stage instead of Hexmage pushes you back to turn 3 to trigger. You also lose out on pretty much all of the fast mana to accelerate it, like you have for the legacy turbo depths decks.
Knight of the Reliquary decks actually could also be problematic, but even then you're looking at a turn 4 trigger, turn 5 swing (turn 1 birds, turn 2 knight, turn 3 turn land into depths, turn 4 turn land into stage, trigger). Knight is pretty susceptible to interaction the whole time here, plus the fact that you really haven't done much (though after turn 2 you're not really spending mana to do this, and can just knight activation at the end of your opponent's turn). It would give big zoo another interesting option, but would it really be any more problematic than tempo twin that can just threaten to win out of nowhere and is harder to interact with?
Even slotting it into a fair deck (not using Knight), you still have Stage which is a weak draw and Depths which is a dead draw for the most part until you draw into a stage or spend a total of 30 mana that you just had lying around.
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Street Wraith
52 card deck?
52 card deck.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
I just threw together a deck of 4 each of Depths, Stage, Hexmage, Probe, Wraith, Spirit Guide, and then the rest just swamps to see how often Cockatrice gave me a turn 2 or 3 combo. It was ~40% not counting the fact that you make some questionable keeps (you have 2 pieces and a draw or two, and then whiff and lose). Granted, this is not truly accurate as I didn't do that many repetitions, nor did I do any math to figure out the exact probability of getting depths, urborg, and either a hexmage or stage in a 52 card deck.
That said couldn't you do the same exact thing running 4 birds, 4 heirarchs, 4 deceiver exarch, 4 splinter twin, 4 probe, 4 wraith? This is a turn 3 win combo when you get it, and a loss when you don't. This is the same kind of situation that we're talking about, just more open to interaction....
At this point in time...you may wish to choose a different example. Perhaps one that is not under the ban microscope for the exact same reason as why DD was axed in the first place.
I don't think the speed of Twin is a reason it may ever be considered....
Dark Depths rarely won before turn 4.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
Jace, SoM, AV, BBE, PF, Jitte, Skullclamp...
Speed is not the only thing that qualifies cards for banning.
But yeah, DD was not banned because of fast wins, it was banned because it was a very low-commitment combo that offered free and sudden wins out of nowhere. Without being a very big detriment to the strategy of the rest of the deck.
All of this also applies to Kiki pod.
CG
I'm starting to sympathize with the storm haters... it's getting annoying, and on mtgo it's so cheap that everyone and their mother has the deck.
But it is vulnerable to removal. Not as much removal as goblin, but being a permanent it is sill hit by abrupt decay
Still I don't think anything should be hit in storm. It's still a pretty difficult deck to play an master which is a good thing, and it doesn't consistently win turn 3. Turn 4 yes but not 3
Storm is really the only legacy-esque combo left in modern and the backlash from banning it would be huge, especially if they want to get legacy players into the format
CG
Oh no! It is annoying! BAN IT TO HELL!
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.