Birthing Pod is worth watching. 50% of a Top8 is reason for concern, but not cause for bans until it shows its success can be sustained. The rash of Jund performances before BBE's banning proved that WotC considers Metagame share vs Top 16 performances at large events over time to assess dominance. Pod might be on the chopping block if it can match that performance. Its constant presence and slow march of progress reminds me a bit of Survival of the Fittest, though there are some obvious dissimilarities.
Now that Jund is clearly no longer a dominant force in the metagame, I think its fair to suggest that BBE is a card which should be strongly considered for unbanning. One of Ponder and/or Preordain shouldn't be that far behind with the decline of UR Combo from 40% of the metagame at PT Philly down to where it is now, even if it would benefit Twin a bit. GGT was never a problem to begin with, so I'd love to see it unbanned.
I'll be looking into testing Ancestral Vision, likely in a U/x/x control deck and UB Faeries. I think that's a more reasonable place to start than JTMS, SFM, Ponder, Preordain, etc at the moment. If you've done any testing with AV (regardless of being for or against its unban) I encourage you to post your lists and contribute in the Banned List Testing thread (found in my sig). Between PT Valencia and GP Richmond we've probably got enough data to start putting together a reasonable gauntlet and proposing test lists now.
Over the past few pages, SFM with Swords and/or Elbrus has been a hot-button issue so discussing some decklists with Misty might be fun too, but personally I don't advocate for testing it at this time. There are more deserving cards to discuss first. But go ahead if its something you're passionate about.
While the deck does not consistently win on turn 3, the combo is still very easy to assemble and does consistently win eventually. It also takes up very few slots so you can cram the rest of the deck full of cantrips, counterspells, removal, and recently, efficient creatures (snappy, goyf, ooze)
Storm, as comparison, has to devote so many cards to its combo that it has no more room for these extra things.
I would not be too sad to see Splinter Twin gone, even though it probably shouldn't happen anytime soon
I'll just say this about Birthing Pod: I think it will be banned at some point in the future when who knows, but this has show and tell syndrome written all over it in that the potential for stupid brokenness is there and as such potential banning is possible. I think however it won't be banned for some time. this card reminds me too much of Survival of the Fittest and we all know where that went. I can see this card becoming more problematic as new cards enter modern but as of right now I would say keep it on the "watch list" not ban it yet.
I think just about everyone would agree with this. It will be banned eventually, simply because something will break it, or it becomes the only game in town. Until then - pod, pod away.
I'll just say this about Birthing Pod: I think it will be banned at some point in the future when who knows, but this has show and tell syndrome written all over it in that the potential for stupid brokenness is there and as such potential banning is possible. I think however it won't be banned for some time. this card reminds me too much of Survival of the Fittest and we all know where that went. I can see this card becoming more problematic as new cards enter modern but as of right now I would say keep it on the "watch list" not ban it yet.
I think just about everyone would agree with this. It will be banned eventually, simply because something will break it, or it becomes the only game in town. Until then - pod, pod away.
Because it hasn't already been broken with 3 different infinite combos.
Note: In saying that, I'm not saying it's ban worthy. Just being cheeky.
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I'll just say this about Birthing Pod: I think it will be banned at some point in the future when who knows, but this has show and tell syndrome written all over it in that the potential for stupid brokenness is there and as such potential banning is possible. I think however it won't be banned for some time. this card reminds me too much of Survival of the Fittest and we all know where that went. I can see this card becoming more problematic as new cards enter modern but as of right now I would say keep it on the "watch list" not ban it yet.
I think just about everyone would agree with this. It will be banned eventually, simply because something will break it, or it becomes the only game in town. Until then - pod, pod away.
Because it hasn't already been broken with 3 different infinite combos.
Note: In saying that, I'm not saying it's ban worthy. Just being cheeky.
The fact that it isn't already banworthy despite 3 infinite combos should be testament to the fact that its unlikely to get broken by further cards being printed.
I've been pretty understanding of the bans and the unbans, feeling like Wizards hasn't always been perfect, but that they have a goal in mind for the meta.
Taking Pod away would suck royally. Blue decks would dominate, and then we'd have to have a discussion about banning Cryptic Command or something stupid. There was a ton of Splinter Twin at the last big tournament, and UWR has taken down several big tournaments before that. The meta is fine.
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I'll just say this about Birthing Pod: I think it will be banned at some point in the future when who knows, but this has show and tell syndrome written all over it in that the potential for stupid brokenness is there and as such potential banning is possible. I think however it won't be banned for some time. this card reminds me too much of Survival of the Fittest and we all know where that went. I can see this card becoming more problematic as new cards enter modern but as of right now I would say keep it on the "watch list" not ban it yet.
I think just about everyone would agree with this. It will be banned eventually, simply because something will break it, or it becomes the only game in town. Until then - pod, pod away.
Because it hasn't already been broken with 3 different infinite combos.
Note: In saying that, I'm not saying it's ban worthy. Just being cheeky.
The fact that it isn't already banworthy despite 3 infinite combos should be testament to the fact that its unlikely to get broken by further cards being printed.
Yep. That's because as compared to SotF, you need to tap your Pod to search. And the search needs to be chained. The closest thing to SotF that Pod can do is have 4 mana, a 1 drop and 2 drop. This way you can chain it by saccing the 2 drop for exarch, untap pod, sac 1 drop for phantasmal, copy exarch, untap pod, sac phantasmal for resto angel, blink exarch, untap pod, sac resto angel for kiki-jiki and win. SotF only needs 4 mana and it's library. Also the Pod chain I mentioned happens on the battlefield which can be interrupted by removal while the chain is happening. For SotF, you can only interrupt it with Stifle effects or GY hate which is uncommon to have in the maindeck.
Pod as a deck concept has been getting more and more tools making the deck stronger/more resilient with each set. If you don't think it will be banned eventually you are by my estimations naive.
So far each block since it's release has given the deck something to work with. Keep in mind that it just took up 5 of the top 8 slots of a GP that was massive. It reminds me of the old Necropotence decks. They tried to ban the stuff around it, but in the end had to simply ban the enabler. My guess is they are going to let it ride another big event or two, but if it remains this good something has to go. Personally I think they could remove chord of calling to weaken it without killing it, but ultimately I think Pod itself will need to go.
Jace is probably a safe unban, in terms of sheer power level. However, he engenders a ton of ill will among the player base, largely due to his price. I suppose if Wizards printed Duel Decks: Jace vs. Jace, at MSRP $9.99, he'd be safe to come off the list. That's hyperbole, but only just. They'd have to hit his price with the fist of an angry god.
Jace is probably a safe unban, in terms of sheer power level. However, he engenders a ton of ill will among the player base, largely due to his price. I suppose if Wizards printed Duel Decks: Jace vs. Jace, at MSRP $9.99, he'd be safe to come off the list. That's hyperbole, but only just. They'd have to hit his price with the fist of an angry god.
Since that will never happen, Jace is probably staying on for now.
Jace is probably a safe unban, in terms of sheer power level. However, he engenders a ton of ill will among the player base, largely due to his price. I suppose if Wizards printed Duel Decks: Jace vs. Jace, at MSRP $9.99, he'd be safe to come off the list. That's hyperbole, but only just. They'd have to hit his price with the fist of an angry god.
An MSRP of $9.99 means exactly as much as an MSRP of $0.99: Nothing. Stores will just charge what they want to charge on something like that, because they know the product is worth a lot more than $9.99.
My main problem with the argument of price right now is Goyf. When is his price going to be "hit by a fist of an angry god"? Another reprint in a MM type set? What is stopping them from reprinting Jace in such a set? I feel that price is a very poor argument for the ban list, either for putting something on or allowing something off.
What do you think about a possible unbanning of Sensei's Divining Top? I always thought that it's banning was necessary because of time constraints. Someone at my LGS was telling me that Counterbalance + Top would be nearly as good in Modern as it is in Legacy and would be THE best deck. Those were big words and I didn't agree. Still, I do think it does need to stay banned, but only for time restraints. Is a possible lock that can be tough to find and need to hit a variety of mana costs that powerful?
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I was just reading a couple pages back and I couldn't believe that SFM was being discussed for an unban. I do not want to see that card in a deck like affinity. No thank you. Even without Batterskull giving affinity 4 more uncounterable Cranial Platings on top of the 4 that are already in the deck is a terrible idea.
I was just reading a couple pages back and I couldn't believe that SFM was being discussed for an unban. I do not want to see that card in a deck like affinity. No thank you. Even without Batterskull giving affinity 4 more uncounterable Cranial Platings on top of the 4 that are already in the deck is a terrible idea.
Steelshaper's Gift exists and isn't played. Why would Affinity pay another mana for a squire when they can fetch Cranial Plating for one mana.
stoneforge mystic is above jtms in terms of power level. if it was a 4 mana creature i think its fine, but no it's 2 cmc. modern is in no position to handle a turn 3 uncounterable batterskull.
on the other hand, JTMS really isnt that far above the rest in terms of power level, and should come off some day eventually.
Jund has never been more than 3x in a GP Top. Even in the Bloodbraid and lingering Era.
Um... GP Detroit? That had 4 Jund decks in the Top 8. And mind you, that's just straight Jund; there were 2 GB Rock decks in that Top 8 as well, which has a lot more in common with Jund than Kiki-Pod has with Melira Pod.
GP Prague also had 3 Jund lists plus a Junk deck, if you count that.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't there only 5 Pod decks in the top 18? Most of those 18 having the exact same record? And the Pod players just ended up getting lucky with their tie breakers? Looking at the top8 is a very narrow focus, seeing as Pod only made up 10% of the day2 metagame(less so even than Robots).
Not to mention of course that a single data point is not indicative of anything.
As for "Pod just keeps getting better." So does Gifts. So does Peer. So does Grisly Salvage. Every time a card is printed, every card that allows you to search, dig, or interact in any way with others is suddenly made better. So that's more or less a pointless argument.
Forgive me if I'm mistaken, but wasn't there only 5 Pod decks in the top 18?
Top 16, sure... problem is all 5 were in the top 8. From the outside, it was a fairly boring homogeneous showing. Since this is the ban list thread, I'll say what my play group has been saying: It seems like Wizards doesn't fully consider the next step or consequences of the consequences of banning. The Deathrite ban removed the only major roadblock in the way of Twin and Pod, as well as greatly reducing Tron's effectiveness as it removes the main prey of that deck. It seems like they just went "hurr durrr, too much Deathrite, BAN!" Especially at the time when Twin and Pod were matching if not exceeding its performance anyway.
I feel that the answer for modern is to unban, not ban. Banning Pod makes the format crappier, not better... but no one likes the pod parade going on right now unless you play it. In my opinion, you look at the cards that are most broken and imbalanced (Stoneforge, Blazing Shoal, Skullclamp, Ponder/Preordain) and the logistically banned cards (Second Sunrise, Sensei's Divining Top) and unban everything else. Yes, unban Jace. I'd rather play that format than the half hesitant mother may I routine we have going on now.
Steelshaper's Gift exists and isn't played. Why would Affinity pay another mana for a squire when they can fetch Cranial Plating for one mana.
Because of the body. And you can't counter a Plating that gets Mystic-ed in.
Some Legacy Affinity decks play SFM, surprisingly even without Batterskull.
You can't counter a turn 1 Steelshaper's Gift either, you can counter SFM even more easily than Steelshaper's Gift, and a 1/2 nonartifact creature is not worth the extra mana.
If theres too much Pod then the Meta should eventually adjust to hate it / restrict it. Who know's Maybe in Nyx there'll be a card that makes it harder to pod. Maybe theres an interaction that no one has thought of yet. The meta just needs time, it's too soon afyer the recent bans/ unbans to really see whats going to happen, but I have faith in the player base that no matter what deck becomes the go to super deck someone is working on taking it down - without the need to cripple it artificially with bans.
As for "Pod just keeps getting better." So does Gifts. So does Peer. So does Grisly Salvage. Every time a card is printed, every card that allows you to search, dig, or interact in any way with others is suddenly made better. So that's more or less a pointless argument.
You're comparing apples to oranges by trying to equate a tutor/cheat card like Pod with digging spells. Tutoring cards as a whole gain a disproportionate amount of power every time new cards come out because tutors can leverage even the most situational and fringe cards to extreme effectiveness due to how tutors work. Digging spells simply can't compare to the consistency and efficiency that a tutor provides.
With Gifts, it does get stronger every time new cards come out. You're right about that. However, Gifts is limited to just tutoring only (even if it's a mass tutor spell). Pod is a card that doesn't just tutor for the creature of choice, but it also puts that creature directly into play. As I said in my previous post, any card that can both tutor and put a card directly onto the battlefield is a big red flag for Wizards.
Now that Jund is clearly no longer a dominant force in the metagame, I think its fair to suggest that BBE is a card which should be strongly considered for unbanning. One of Ponder and/or Preordain shouldn't be that far behind with the decline of UR Combo from 40% of the metagame at PT Philly down to where it is now, even if it would benefit Twin a bit. GGT was never a problem to begin with, so I'd love to see it unbanned.
I'll be looking into testing Ancestral Vision, likely in a U/x/x control deck and UB Faeries. I think that's a more reasonable place to start than JTMS, SFM, Ponder, Preordain, etc at the moment. If you've done any testing with AV (regardless of being for or against its unban) I encourage you to post your lists and contribute in the Banned List Testing thread (found in my sig). Between PT Valencia and GP Richmond we've probably got enough data to start putting together a reasonable gauntlet and proposing test lists now.
Over the past few pages, SFM with Swords and/or Elbrus has been a hot-button issue so discussing some decklists with Misty might be fun too, but personally I don't advocate for testing it at this time. There are more deserving cards to discuss first. But go ahead if its something you're passionate about.
Speculate less. Test more.
While the deck does not consistently win on turn 3, the combo is still very easy to assemble and does consistently win eventually. It also takes up very few slots so you can cram the rest of the deck full of cantrips, counterspells, removal, and recently, efficient creatures (snappy, goyf, ooze)
Storm, as comparison, has to devote so many cards to its combo that it has no more room for these extra things.
I would not be too sad to see Splinter Twin gone, even though it probably shouldn't happen anytime soon
I think just about everyone would agree with this. It will be banned eventually, simply because something will break it, or it becomes the only game in town. Until then - pod, pod away.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Because it hasn't already been broken with 3 different infinite combos.
Note: In saying that, I'm not saying it's ban worthy. Just being cheeky.
The fact that it isn't already banworthy despite 3 infinite combos should be testament to the fact that its unlikely to get broken by further cards being printed.
Taking Pod away would suck royally. Blue decks would dominate, and then we'd have to have a discussion about banning Cryptic Command or something stupid. There was a ton of Splinter Twin at the last big tournament, and UWR has taken down several big tournaments before that. The meta is fine.
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Yep. That's because as compared to SotF, you need to tap your Pod to search. And the search needs to be chained. The closest thing to SotF that Pod can do is have 4 mana, a 1 drop and 2 drop. This way you can chain it by saccing the 2 drop for exarch, untap pod, sac 1 drop for phantasmal, copy exarch, untap pod, sac phantasmal for resto angel, blink exarch, untap pod, sac resto angel for kiki-jiki and win. SotF only needs 4 mana and it's library. Also the Pod chain I mentioned happens on the battlefield which can be interrupted by removal while the chain is happening. For SotF, you can only interrupt it with Stifle effects or GY hate which is uncommon to have in the maindeck.
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So far each block since it's release has given the deck something to work with. Keep in mind that it just took up 5 of the top 8 slots of a GP that was massive. It reminds me of the old Necropotence decks. They tried to ban the stuff around it, but in the end had to simply ban the enabler. My guess is they are going to let it ride another big event or two, but if it remains this good something has to go. Personally I think they could remove chord of calling to weaken it without killing it, but ultimately I think Pod itself will need to go.
Since that will never happen, Jace is probably staying on for now.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
An MSRP of $9.99 means exactly as much as an MSRP of $0.99: Nothing. Stores will just charge what they want to charge on something like that, because they know the product is worth a lot more than $9.99.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Premodern - Trix, RecSur, Enchantress, Reanimator, Elves https://www.facebook.com/groups/PremodernUSA/
Modern - Neobrand, Hogaak Vine, Elves
Standard - Mono Red (6-2 and 5-3 in 2 McQ)
Draft - (I wish I had more time for limited...)
Commander -
Norin the Wary, Grimgrin, Adun Oakenshield (taking forever to build)(dead format for me)Steelshaper's Gift exists and isn't played. Why would Affinity pay another mana for a squire when they can fetch Cranial Plating for one mana.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
on the other hand, JTMS really isnt that far above the rest in terms of power level, and should come off some day eventually.
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please tell me your joking. please. JTMS was a mistake and never was suppose to be printed (not in its current form).
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Because of the body. And you can't counter a Plating that gets Mystic-ed in.
Some Legacy Affinity decks play SFM, surprisingly even without Batterskull.
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Big Johnny.
Um... GP Detroit? That had 4 Jund decks in the Top 8. And mind you, that's just straight Jund; there were 2 GB Rock decks in that Top 8 as well, which has a lot more in common with Jund than Kiki-Pod has with Melira Pod.
GP Prague also had 3 Jund lists plus a Junk deck, if you count that.
Not to mention of course that a single data point is not indicative of anything.
As for "Pod just keeps getting better." So does Gifts. So does Peer. So does Grisly Salvage. Every time a card is printed, every card that allows you to search, dig, or interact in any way with others is suddenly made better. So that's more or less a pointless argument.
Top 16, sure... problem is all 5 were in the top 8. From the outside, it was a fairly boring homogeneous showing. Since this is the ban list thread, I'll say what my play group has been saying: It seems like Wizards doesn't fully consider the next step or consequences of the consequences of banning. The Deathrite ban removed the only major roadblock in the way of Twin and Pod, as well as greatly reducing Tron's effectiveness as it removes the main prey of that deck. It seems like they just went "hurr durrr, too much Deathrite, BAN!" Especially at the time when Twin and Pod were matching if not exceeding its performance anyway.
I feel that the answer for modern is to unban, not ban. Banning Pod makes the format crappier, not better... but no one likes the pod parade going on right now unless you play it. In my opinion, you look at the cards that are most broken and imbalanced (Stoneforge, Blazing Shoal, Skullclamp, Ponder/Preordain) and the logistically banned cards (Second Sunrise, Sensei's Divining Top) and unban everything else. Yes, unban Jace. I'd rather play that format than the half hesitant mother may I routine we have going on now.
You can't counter a turn 1 Steelshaper's Gift either, you can counter SFM even more easily than Steelshaper's Gift, and a 1/2 nonartifact creature is not worth the extra mana.
Storm Crow is strictly worse than Seacoast Drake.
You're comparing apples to oranges by trying to equate a tutor/cheat card like Pod with digging spells. Tutoring cards as a whole gain a disproportionate amount of power every time new cards come out because tutors can leverage even the most situational and fringe cards to extreme effectiveness due to how tutors work. Digging spells simply can't compare to the consistency and efficiency that a tutor provides.
With Gifts, it does get stronger every time new cards come out. You're right about that. However, Gifts is limited to just tutoring only (even if it's a mass tutor spell). Pod is a card that doesn't just tutor for the creature of choice, but it also puts that creature directly into play. As I said in my previous post, any card that can both tutor and put a card directly onto the battlefield is a big red flag for Wizards.