23 lands vs 22 lands for his original UR delver list. pretty much the same deck except one has scions and the other has delver. that list has been popping on up dailies for a few days now. i'm still not 100% sold on turn and burn. what's the best use for it? i have my own ideas, but they may be wrong.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
To my understanding, turn and burn does help deal with bigger bodies. It is just very slow at doing so. The up side is that the card isn't dead if you get your better board options like Go for the Throat as you could still burn their face or possibly turn a creature and block it.
Some good examples of when it shines that I saw are when there is a stubborn creature like a Wurmcoil (grrrrr). We can turn and burn it before it can gain life; and by casting turn on it, it loses its effect and does not yield any tokens. This and other similar situations are nightmares in which we can no longer 1-for-1 a threat while we keep chipping away at their life.
I don't necessarily have a problem with Guide, he is played a little in Delver legacy decks but giving your opponent cards is not good for any reason. For me it seems there is always a blocker early game that can kill him right away. Some games you can ride him out for a win or close to it... but most you cant, and generally because you gave your opponent the answer.
And now with Vexing Devil in the mix I think he is just a better choice.
Knowing what is happening on there end is huge compared to modern, your opponent getting a free land is enough to keep guide around a could turns and if you can counter, bounce or kill there threats you win.
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Dictators prefer an unarmed population.
Decks I play and stuff.
Goblin Guide and Vexing Devil aren't particularly strong in threat-light decks. Vexing Devil is basically only playable in a deck full of burn spells or creatures. Goblin Guide might be marginally better here, but I don't think it fits the deck very well.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
To my understanding, turn and burn does help deal with bigger bodies. It is just very slow at doing so. The up side is that the card isn't dead if you get your better board options like Go for the Throat as you could still burn their face or possibly turn a creature and block it.
Some good examples of when it shines that I saw are when there is a stubborn creature like a Wurmcoil (grrrrr). We can turn and burn it before it can gain life; and by casting turn on it, it loses its effect and does not yield any tokens. This and other similar situations are nightmares in which we can no longer 1-for-1 a threat while we keep chipping away at their life.
If you let them resolve a Wurmcoil Engine you've lost. Period. This deck wins by playing 2-3 spells a turn off of 3-4 lands and disrupting the opponent just long enough to count to 20. Look at the legacy version. A resolved Batterskull or Jace is gg so the deck tries to win before they are relevant.
You can't really compare the list the Hoogland is playing to a real Delver deck. I agree running things like Magma Jet and Telling Time just to flip Delvers is a bad strategy in a similar vein to running Mutagenic Growth and Gutshot just to activate Young Pyromancers.
The way Hoogland approached the problem was to go more controlling by upping the land count and cmc. He's definitely a better player than I am and I offer him all the respect in the world but the deck he's playing looks like U/R Faeries and not U/R delver.
In my (probably wrong) opinion adding green to the U/R shell also solves the problem of relying on delver as the only real threat. Tarmogoyf ends games quicker and cheaper than Mutavault or Grim Lavamancer, which is exactly what this deck wants to be doing.
In case anyone was wondering how my search for a third creature threat is going Stromkirk Noble, Jace's Mindseeker and Scute Mob are all unplayable (obvious in hindsight, but I'm getting desperate). The last 1 drop I'm looking at is Kird Ape. After that I'm moving to Mire Boa (Hello Jund and U/W/R), Flinthoof Boar, and a Spellstutter Sprite/Rancor split. Maybe I should just learn how to play with Young Pyromancer...
I didn't notice this before, but he isn't running any cantrips. In his faq he mentions running Telling Time and Isochron Scepter so it's probably outdated.
Does anyone know why he dropped them?
I didn't notice this before, but he isn't running any cantrips. In his faq he mentions running Telling Time and Isochron Scepter so it's probably outdated.
Does anyone know why he dropped them?
He runs those when he's running delver to help him flip and create tons of card advantage potentially.
His previous list which he won some VIP invite with didn't run cantrips either, except for 2 copies of telling time. I think that's the list tehPlatypi was talking about. I tried it out and most of the time delver flipped just fine.
Trying U/R delver with 4 young pyromancers right now... So far, the deck doesn't seem as powerful as UWR (both geist and control), but it is tons of fun to play. Anyway, from the testing I've done, Young Pyromancer is a house - I've been testing mostly against combo, and dropping one t3 with counter backup is amazing; basically, it allows you to not cast anything and just gain value from your counters. Getting 4 or 5 tokens from an YP has been common.
Hexproof, the most miserable matchup for the UWR decks I have, feels like a 60/40 matchup - their godhand is unbeatable, but spell pierce and young pyromancer cab allow us to run over them before they assemble a gigantic boggle. Even when my opponent managed a rancored, daybreak coroneted, totem armored gladecover scout, I was able to race him with 2x young pyromancers (12 tokens by the end of the game).
Now I understand why Magma Jet is so good in this deck; although it's obvious, the fact that you can scry away all the lands once you have 4 or so, and that you can easily CHAIN Magma Jets and Snaps + Jets ensures that you potentially only draw live spells for the rest of the game and not lands, giving you some massive virtual card advantage.
It's also usually better than Serum Visions because:
A) It doesn't make you tap out, which I hate
B) You don't blind draw, you scry your next draw step
Just wanted to say this cause manh people question the importance of Magma Jet : P
Quote from tehPlatypiIn case anyone was wondering how my search for a third creature threat is going [CARD »
Stromkirk Noble[/CARD], Jace's Mindseeker and Scute Mob are all unplayable (obvious in hindsight, but I'm getting desperate). The last 1 drop I'm looking at is Kird Ape. After that I'm moving to Mire Boa (Hello Jund and U/W/R), Flinthoof Boar, and a Spellstutter Sprite/Rancor split. Maybe I should just learn how to play with Young Pyromancer...
Seriously? If you're splashing green just run Tarmogoyf, it's miles better than any other tempo threat, even Delver himself. I run Guides in mine and I love them; a Guide and a Delver on the board is 5 damage per turn, which cleans games up pretty fast. Usually I land one of the two (or both) and beat for a few turns while Remanding problem cards and burning in-the-way creatures, and then once creatures die Burst Lightning or Snap/Bolt finishes the job.
This is my favorite deck and I've been running it for about 5 months at my local tourneys, but I hardly think the thread belongs in Proven. RUG is a deck and UWR is a deck, but UR Delver hasn't been a deck since Ponder and Preordain were banned, and it's never been a thing with Young Pyromancer. Even if the card's had some successes here and there, it's not a talked about deck and it's certainly not a dominant one, so I don't know what the 'primer' is doing in this forum. A quick aside on Pyromancer, actually - I love the card, and I love the design, but he doesn't belong here. With 4 in the main, your creature suite is still RIP to the same problem cards (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Lightning Bolt, Darkblast, etc.) and he costs twice as much as your dudes should unless they come with attached Mana Leaks. Tarmogoyf costs the same thing and DOESN'T die to everything your other beaters do, which definitely makes him worth the slot in the deck if you can afford it. From my testing (about 2 months), even when Young Pyromancer is good, he's just win-more.
All that said I really do love this archetype. Pretty sure the only reason to not run green for Goyf (besides budget) is to have access to Blood Moon in the main. Here's my current list:
I actually just dropped 2 MD Moons and a couple lands for 2 Telling Time and 2 Gitaxian Probe, since my meta is packed with a lot of Moon-resilient decks (Soul Sisters, RDW, Affinity, etc.). I also like Vendilion Clique in the board against control as a 2-of (Dispel usually wins me the UWR matchup though), I just don't have any. Been cleaning up anyway, went 2-0 2-0 2-0 last Friday.
the card itself really isn't worth the card board its printed on...does it serve a purpose? Sure its a blue 1 drop that might not be a 1/1. I would not put it in a list and expect to win a PTQ or GP though.
But that's an incidental and awesome advantage, if it was terrible without delver it would be a mistake to run it. Same as. Gitaxian Probe in pyromancer builds, it's a good card to have by itself (especially in tempo builds), whereas Mutagenic Growth for example is horrible.
Do you think it would be feasible to switch Telling Time with Sleight of Hand? Your list looks good, I am just trying to see if there is a way to lower the curve a little while only running the 18 mana.
sleight of hand does nothing for this deck. 18 lands + cryptic is a definite no no.
Personally I think you are right about sleight of hand. I do not have much xp with the deck so I don't know how much dig you need. 18 lands for cryptic is kind of nuts though so if you are going to play it your cmcs of other cards need to be pretty low. More than likely though you will never pull the 4 mana needed to cast it.
Personally I think you are right about sleight of hand. I do not have much xp with the deck so I don't know how much dig you need. 18 lands for cryptic is kind of nuts though so if you are going to play it your cmcs of other cards need to be pretty low. More than likely though you will never pull the 4 mana needed to cast it.
What would you put in it's place then, more mana?
I'd probably round out the set of mana leaks or look into adding some Spell Snares either there or by cutting something else.
I kept looking at the guides in the list, and he always looked out of places. Pyromancer is just a replacement until I find something else. He did pull his weight though creating an almost endless sea of chump blockers. Snare helped the deck quite a bit. Maybe not a MB option but for sure somewhere in the 75.
I kept looking at the guides in the list, and he always looked out of places. Pyromancer is just a replacement until I find something else. He did pull his weight though creating an almost endless sea of chump blockers. Snare helped the deck quite a bit. Maybe not a MB option but for sure somewhere in the 75.
http://www.twitch.tv/deathstarmtg
Some good examples of when it shines that I saw are when there is a stubborn creature like a Wurmcoil (grrrrr). We can turn and burn it before it can gain life; and by casting turn on it, it loses its effect and does not yield any tokens. This and other similar situations are nightmares in which we can no longer 1-for-1 a threat while we keep chipping away at their life.
Knowing what is happening on there end is huge compared to modern, your opponent getting a free land is enough to keep guide around a could turns and if you can counter, bounce or kill there threats you win.
Decks I play and stuff.
Legacy Burn
Modern Mono U Tron
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
If you let them resolve a Wurmcoil Engine you've lost. Period. This deck wins by playing 2-3 spells a turn off of 3-4 lands and disrupting the opponent just long enough to count to 20. Look at the legacy version. A resolved Batterskull or Jace is gg so the deck tries to win before they are relevant.
You can't really compare the list the Hoogland is playing to a real Delver deck. I agree running things like Magma Jet and Telling Time just to flip Delvers is a bad strategy in a similar vein to running Mutagenic Growth and Gutshot just to activate Young Pyromancers.
The way Hoogland approached the problem was to go more controlling by upping the land count and cmc. He's definitely a better player than I am and I offer him all the respect in the world but the deck he's playing looks like U/R Faeries and not U/R delver.
In my (probably wrong) opinion adding green to the U/R shell also solves the problem of relying on delver as the only real threat. Tarmogoyf ends games quicker and cheaper than Mutavault or Grim Lavamancer, which is exactly what this deck wants to be doing.
There's a pretty good primer about Grixis Delver, which is quite a bit different from U/R or RUG since Creeping Tar Pit, Deathrite Shaman, Dark Confidant, and Thoughtseize require more commitment to black than just a splash.
In case anyone was wondering how my search for a third creature threat is going Stromkirk Noble, Jace's Mindseeker and Scute Mob are all unplayable (obvious in hindsight, but I'm getting desperate). The last 1 drop I'm looking at is Kird Ape. After that I'm moving to Mire Boa (Hello Jund and U/W/R), Flinthoof Boar, and a Spellstutter Sprite/Rancor split. Maybe I should just learn how to play with Young Pyromancer...
Do you have his list?
Try scrolling down.
he changes the list daily here:
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/urb-spellstutter/
Meaning: on his twitch page, Jeff has a link to the list as well as FAQ.
I didn't notice this before, but he isn't running any cantrips. In his faq he mentions running Telling Time and Isochron Scepter so it's probably outdated.
Does anyone know why he dropped them?
He runs those when he's running delver to help him flip and create tons of card advantage potentially.
Edit: http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1148318
Modern: Jund Legacy: RUG Delver EDH: Captain Sisay
Hexproof, the most miserable matchup for the UWR decks I have, feels like a 60/40 matchup - their godhand is unbeatable, but spell pierce and young pyromancer cab allow us to run over them before they assemble a gigantic boggle. Even when my opponent managed a rancored, daybreak coroneted, totem armored gladecover scout, I was able to race him with 2x young pyromancers (12 tokens by the end of the game).
It's also usually better than Serum Visions because:
A) It doesn't make you tap out, which I hate
B) You don't blind draw, you scry your next draw step
Just wanted to say this cause manh people question the importance of Magma Jet : P
Seriously? If you're splashing green just run Tarmogoyf, it's miles better than any other tempo threat, even Delver himself. I run Guides in mine and I love them; a Guide and a Delver on the board is 5 damage per turn, which cleans games up pretty fast. Usually I land one of the two (or both) and beat for a few turns while Remanding problem cards and burning in-the-way creatures, and then once creatures die Burst Lightning or Snap/Bolt finishes the job.
This is my favorite deck and I've been running it for about 5 months at my local tourneys, but I hardly think the thread belongs in Proven. RUG is a deck and UWR is a deck, but UR Delver hasn't been a deck since Ponder and Preordain were banned, and it's never been a thing with Young Pyromancer. Even if the card's had some successes here and there, it's not a talked about deck and it's certainly not a dominant one, so I don't know what the 'primer' is doing in this forum. A quick aside on Pyromancer, actually - I love the card, and I love the design, but he doesn't belong here. With 4 in the main, your creature suite is still RIP to the same problem cards (Volcanic Fallout, Pyroclasm, Lightning Bolt, Darkblast, etc.) and he costs twice as much as your dudes should unless they come with attached Mana Leaks. Tarmogoyf costs the same thing and DOESN'T die to everything your other beaters do, which definitely makes him worth the slot in the deck if you can afford it. From my testing (about 2 months), even when Young Pyromancer is good, he's just win-more.
All that said I really do love this archetype. Pretty sure the only reason to not run green for Goyf (besides budget) is to have access to Blood Moon in the main. Here's my current list:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Snapcaster Mage
3 Grim Lavamancer
Instant 21
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Remand
2 Izzet Charm
2 Cryptic Command
3 Electrolyze
2 Burst Lightning
2 Mana Leak
2 Telling Time
4 Serum Visions
2 Gitaxian Probe
Land 18
2 Steam Vents
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Island
2 Mountain
2 Sulfur Falls
4 Misty Rainforest
I actually just dropped 2 MD Moons and a couple lands for 2 Telling Time and 2 Gitaxian Probe, since my meta is packed with a lot of Moon-resilient decks (Soul Sisters, RDW, Affinity, etc.). I also like Vendilion Clique in the board against control as a 2-of (Dispel usually wins me the UWR matchup though), I just don't have any. Been cleaning up anyway, went 2-0 2-0 2-0 last Friday.
Counter-Cat
Colorless Eldrazi Stompy
But that's an incidental and awesome advantage, if it was terrible without delver it would be a mistake to run it. Same as. Gitaxian Probe in pyromancer builds, it's a good card to have by itself (especially in tempo builds), whereas Mutagenic Growth for example is horrible.
Do you think it would be feasible to switch Telling Time with Sleight of Hand? Your list looks good, I am just trying to see if there is a way to lower the curve a little while only running the 18 mana.
Personally I think you are right about sleight of hand. I do not have much xp with the deck so I don't know how much dig you need. 18 lands for cryptic is kind of nuts though so if you are going to play it your cmcs of other cards need to be pretty low. More than likely though you will never pull the 4 mana needed to cast it.
What would you put in it's place then, more mana?
I'd probably round out the set of mana leaks or look into adding some Spell Snares either there or by cutting something else.
-2 Telling Time
+ 2 Spell Snare
-4 Goblin Guide
+4 Young Pyromancer
I kept looking at the guides in the list, and he always looked out of places. Pyromancer is just a replacement until I find something else. He did pull his weight though creating an almost endless sea of chump blockers. Snare helped the deck quite a bit. Maybe not a MB option but for sure somewhere in the 75.
You kept the Cryptics? That seems wrong.
Legacy: UBRG Czech Pile, WWW Death & Taxes, many other things
Modern: UBR Grixis, RWG Burn, UR UR Storm, BBB 8 Rack, whatever other control deck I can force
Multiplayer EDH: RR Norin the Wary, UU Barrin, Master Wizard, UB Wrexial, the Risen Deep, GR Borborygmos, Enraged