THIS 100X!!! If you don't agree with this then there is no amount of logic that will ever convince you that good, non-oppressive, combos should be allowed. If you don't agree with it then just don't play this game, and you certainly shouldn't feel entitled to make any comment on ban lists ever.
How is Ascension working for you? It's a curious card to play in this deck.
Really well actually. Helps with that storm count AFIK, makes Manamophing into 2cmc for 4 mana of any colour and draw 2, and theres nothing like "Grapeshot with storm of 24, twice."
I have been testing your list its quite good but how is visions of beyond working for you? 20 cards in a GY seems to much to be able to draw 3 cards? most of the time I only draw 1 card.
I've been fooling around with a deck using those cards, and though it definitely sees tons of cards, the problem is that you really want to be able to hang onto some rituals so that you can have 2 mana left over after PiF. Burning Inquiry is pretty awesome, since it digs deep for cheap, and really messes with the other player's starting hand, but I think Desperate Ravings and Goblin Lore are less ideal.
It has been quite fast - lot of turn 2/3 kills against my test Zoo deck, where the version with desperate ravings & goblin lore was failing to hit 6 mana in time. But Burning Inquiry seems pretty nasty. Now I just need to test it against a more disruptive opponent.
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Legacy: GW Maverick, Dredge
Modern: Melira Pod, UR Twin Exarch, Living end
Really well actually. Helps with that storm count AFIK, makes Manamophing into 2cmc for 4 mana of any colour and draw 2, and theres nothing like "Grapeshot with storm of 24, twice."
how does it help with the storm count? you do not cast the copies, so they don't count towards storm, and copying a grapeshot with it just adds 1 extra damage.
When I suggested Burning Inquiry, I wasn't sure it should be a 4-of. Your experience kinda confirms that. It should be in the deck, but as a 2 or 3-of. Once you're comoing, it's insane, but when you're trying to set up, dumping three cards is hard to take. The good thing about it tho? It really fuels up your graveyard for Visions of Beyond. Together, they pack a massive 1-2 punch of card advantage.
I have been testing your list its quite good but how is visions of beyond working for you? 20 cards in a GY seems to much to be able to draw 3 cards? most of the time I only draw 1 card.
Yeah, that's the weakest part of the list right now, but I'm not sure what to replace it with. Originally I had Reach Through Mists in there, so I figured what the hell, let's try it with Visions, maybe I'll hit 20 cards at some point. I think the deck wins too fast for that, but I definitely want something that draws cards in there. Remand might be an interesting option, but I really don't want to interact too much - just dig for as little mana as possible and go off as soon as possible. Against a deck that is more disruptive (or even just one that runs Mindbreak trap), I think it might make sense to have that slot be remand, but I haven't tested.
For those of you complaining about Inquiry, I'm wondering if you are testing against an opposing deck to see how rough it is on an opponent's opening hand. It's random, sure, but it has the possibility to real screw up a hand with no option for the opponent to mulligan. Not to mention that it dumps a bunch of extra cards into the yard to fuel PiF. I wouldn't worry so much about the cards you are "losing" - the whole point is that they all come back, and the cards you get in your hand should be just as good. It's one of the reasons I'm not running swath or ascension in that deck - they don't come back from the 'yard.
EDIT: The thing I don't like about Desperate Ravings is that it costs too much. I pay 2 and only get to see 2 cards. I'd rather play 2 different 1-mana spells on turn 2, then go off on turn 3. I guess I could test it instead of the Visions, but I just think drawing one for one mana is better.
I was just testing around with this deck against affinity i had to storm to kill everything early but then on turn five i played out the entire storm and hit 194 damage, impressed me for a first go at it. Something like 49 storm towards the end.
Mmm you can actually Storm out a low damage Grapeshot to get rid of stuff like that early on if it means buying a few extra turns, you can simply flashback everything later
Yeah, I may test with Ideas in place of Visions - I worry about it being too much mana, but it may be good against disruptive decks, where you have to wait that extra turn to go off. I also need to get a good post-ban counter-cat list to test Burning Inquiry against.
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Yeah, I may be selling Ideas short, because of my previous bad experiences with it in storm decks and the fact that I want cheaper spells. Discarding cards is far less painful in this deck, so it does seem like it would be good.
Out of curiosity, what is the list you are running right now?
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Kinda curious but why is everyone using a 2x of Empty the Warrens instead of a 2x Burning Vengence as an alternate kill condition. Hell resolving that right before you play a PiF can easily win the game on it's own even if you never see a Grapeshot with this list, it also reduces the storm counter needed for grapeshot to kill them by allowing all your flashbacked rituals to deal 2 damage as you cast them.
I'm not actively testing this deck just a question I wanted to ask about the card choices based on how I saw the deck playing out in my head.
Guess I should explain a little better about what i'm thinking with Burning Vengence in the deck. You can easily cast it off of 3 mana and have it in play ready to go off the following turn, then you would follow it up with your rituals+PiF. In this case it effectivly creates a second threat that can kill them if not dealt with in addition to the threat of grapeshot.
Even so it might not be what your looking for just something I thought I might through out for people testing this deck since I hadn't seen any discussion of it so far.
Ah, so you'd play it the turn before, that makes sense I automatically assumed going off would be in just one turn, guess I'm just too used to play with Pyromancer's Swath.
Eh can't blame you I phrased my original comment poorly. I just thought Burning Vengance could give this deck a little more constant pressure/alternate win, condition but also the burning for 2 while your flashing stuff back can go to creatures if you need to get something out of the way for whatever reason.
Basiclly it's just a "play and forget" kind of card in the deck. Once it's in play it isn't going to do anything but make the deck do what it is already doing but better as it will be dealing damage while it builds up the storm counter...or at least that's my train of thought.
Hi guys. I have been following this link and just started to put a deck together.
After looking at it awhile I started to wonder if maybe 1-2 Pyromancers Swaths were worth putting in.
First of all you can play a game and almost use it as a 5-6 Past in Flames because from just testing other list I have noticed that its hard to win when u don't get a PiF early in the game.
Second, if u get both it takes less overall spells to get a kill shot?
So far, I'm not impressed by this deck. Pre-sb matches, should be easier vs. Counter Cat. I was playing Finkel's brew before the bannings and it killed Zoo decks on the first game 80% of the time.
The sb match always involved me playing an early Blood Moon and going from there (still a high win percentage). Not sure if this deck can handle it.
Hmm, what is Counter-Cat doing that's a problem? I took the list from the Philly top 8, subbed in pridemages and Teegs for the GSZs and have played 5-6 "game 1"s against it. I lost one of them to repeated mulligans, and one to fizzling, but won the others by turn 4. Small sample size, but I'm just curious what the difficulties are that I've missed in that sample.
The deck I've been running is the list I posted before, but with Inquiry swapped for Ideas Unbound (which is amazing, and makes Inquiry seem a lot worse), and Visions of Beyond swapped for Pyromancer Ascension (which is nasty when it works, and provides a lot of resiliency, at the cost of slowing things down - though with Ideas, the slowdown isn't too bad).
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I have had a few turn 2 kills and a ton of turn 3 kills. Against aggro I have never went longer than turn 4. I have had games versus discard that took me to turn 6 to win. Past in Flames makes it far to easy to win. Absolute 4 of as is Grapeshot.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
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How is Ascension working for you? It's a curious card to play in this deck.
Really well actually. Helps with that storm count AFIK, makes Manamophing into 2cmc for 4 mana of any colour and draw 2, and theres nothing like "Grapeshot with storm of 24, twice."
Modern: Melira Pod, UR Twin Exarch, Living end
how does it help with the storm count? you do not cast the copies, so they don't count towards storm, and copying a grapeshot with it just adds 1 extra damage.
About BI: I think it would be great if not for the "random" component. Desperate Ravings is better.
Yeah, that's the weakest part of the list right now, but I'm not sure what to replace it with. Originally I had Reach Through Mists in there, so I figured what the hell, let's try it with Visions, maybe I'll hit 20 cards at some point. I think the deck wins too fast for that, but I definitely want something that draws cards in there. Remand might be an interesting option, but I really don't want to interact too much - just dig for as little mana as possible and go off as soon as possible. Against a deck that is more disruptive (or even just one that runs Mindbreak trap), I think it might make sense to have that slot be remand, but I haven't tested.
For those of you complaining about Inquiry, I'm wondering if you are testing against an opposing deck to see how rough it is on an opponent's opening hand. It's random, sure, but it has the possibility to real screw up a hand with no option for the opponent to mulligan. Not to mention that it dumps a bunch of extra cards into the yard to fuel PiF. I wouldn't worry so much about the cards you are "losing" - the whole point is that they all come back, and the cards you get in your hand should be just as good. It's one of the reasons I'm not running swath or ascension in that deck - they don't come back from the 'yard.
EDIT: The thing I don't like about Desperate Ravings is that it costs too much. I pay 2 and only get to see 2 cards. I'd rather play 2 different 1-mana spells on turn 2, then go off on turn 3. I guess I could test it instead of the Visions, but I just think drawing one for one mana is better.
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Mmm you can actually Storm out a low damage Grapeshot to get rid of stuff like that early on if it means buying a few extra turns, you can simply flashback everything later
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Out of curiosity, what is the list you are running right now?
People's Front of 422
Guess I should explain a little better about what i'm thinking with Burning Vengence in the deck. You can easily cast it off of 3 mana and have it in play ready to go off the following turn, then you would follow it up with your rituals+PiF. In this case it effectivly creates a second threat that can kill them if not dealt with in addition to the threat of grapeshot.
Even so it might not be what your looking for just something I thought I might through out for people testing this deck since I hadn't seen any discussion of it so far.
Eh can't blame you I phrased my original comment poorly. I just thought Burning Vengance could give this deck a little more constant pressure/alternate win, condition but also the burning for 2 while your flashing stuff back can go to creatures if you need to get something out of the way for whatever reason.
Basiclly it's just a "play and forget" kind of card in the deck. Once it's in play it isn't going to do anything but make the deck do what it is already doing but better as it will be dealing damage while it builds up the storm counter...or at least that's my train of thought.
After looking at it awhile I started to wonder if maybe 1-2 Pyromancers Swaths were worth putting in.
First of all you can play a game and almost use it as a 5-6 Past in Flames because from just testing other list I have noticed that its hard to win when u don't get a PiF early in the game.
Second, if u get both it takes less overall spells to get a kill shot?
What so you all think?
thanks
Hmm, what is Counter-Cat doing that's a problem? I took the list from the Philly top 8, subbed in pridemages and Teegs for the GSZs and have played 5-6 "game 1"s against it. I lost one of them to repeated mulligans, and one to fizzling, but won the others by turn 4. Small sample size, but I'm just curious what the difficulties are that I've missed in that sample.
The deck I've been running is the list I posted before, but with Inquiry swapped for Ideas Unbound (which is amazing, and makes Inquiry seem a lot worse), and Visions of Beyond swapped for Pyromancer Ascension (which is nasty when it works, and provides a lot of resiliency, at the cost of slowing things down - though with Ideas, the slowdown isn't too bad).
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Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Again, I tested Ideas Unbound, and it has the most promise of the draw-discard cards. Still, I like Peer Through Depths' consistency, maindeck burn, and the miser's Muddle the Mixture (gets Grapeshot, Magma Jet, Echoing Truth, everything).
4 Manamorphose
4 Grapeshot
4 Remand
4 Seething Song
4 Desperate Ritual
4 Pyretic Ritual
4 Simian Spirit Guide
4 Gitaxian Probe
3 Serum Visions
4 Steam Vents
1 Misty Rainforest
4 Island
3 Mountain
1 Arid Mesa
4 Peer Through Depths
4 Scalding Tarn
I have had a few turn 2 kills and a ton of turn 3 kills. Against aggro I have never went longer than turn 4. I have had games versus discard that took me to turn 6 to win. Past in Flames makes it far to easy to win. Absolute 4 of as is Grapeshot.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77