I would love to play a format dominated by control decks again. Real ones.
This probably will never happen in Modern. Formats dominated by control are not normally popular with a wide variety of players and have little turn outs at tournaments. Wotc wants (and in some ways needs) a format(s) that appeal to the majority, not the minority.
I personally just want a format not dominated by blue based decks like the other 2 eternal formats. So far Wotc has done well in making Modern that format. I hope they continue to keep the diversity.
I personally wouldnt take any of the cards off the ban list you mentioned. Most are way too powerful for the format as it is.
You talk about the format being diverse, but that's not the case at all. They're the same decks repeating themselves' and the majority are also the same style: aggro. This also changes the expensive cards from being stuff like 'goyf and FoW to JUST 'goyf.
If people want a format without really strong control than they can play standard. Does the format suck? Yes. But that's BECAUSE of how limiting it is. Modern shouldn't be like that.
I speak as someone who was really rooting for Modern from the start, and continue to do so.
You talk about the format being diverse, but that's not the case at all. They're the same decks repeating themselves' and the majority are also the same style: aggro. This also changes the expensive cards from being stuff like 'goyf and FoW to JUST 'goyf.
If people want a format without really strong control than they can play standard. Does the format suck? Yes. But that's BECAUSE of how limiting it is. Modern shouldn't be like that.
I speak as someone who was really rooting for Modern from the start, and continue to do so.
Aggro is pretty easy to hate out. Darkblast seems really well-positioned in this format, if that's your thing, but there's some really good 3-mana and even some 2-mana sweepers that could see significant play if "lotsa guys" is what's giving you the business. If your deck can't beat a turn 1 delver, then it probably wasn't very good in the first place.
I do think that mental misstep could easily come off the banned list. Countering a Wild Nacatl with 2 life and no mana was too devastating of a tempo swing against zoo. Countering a Delver of Secrets for 2 life and no mana seems like there's still parity in the game, and personally it would be nice to be able to counter Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus every once in a while, instead of just getting blown out.
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Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
You talk about the format being diverse, but that's not the case at all. They're the same decks repeating themselves' and the majority are also the same style: aggro. This also changes the expensive cards from being stuff like 'goyf and FoW to JUST 'goyf.
If people want a format without really strong control than they can play standard. Does the format suck? Yes. But that's BECAUSE of how limiting it is. Modern shouldn't be like that.
I speak as someone who was really rooting for Modern from the start, and continue to do so.
Modern is very much so diverse. I think you're confusing aggro with decks like Jund and Delver, consider aside from Affinity those are then only decks that are at the top level that I could even consider someone calling them aggro since the play stle can shift depending on the 75.
I would love a stronger control presence in Modern but its not needed. I'll admit it's frustrating trying to play Teachings or Gifts in Modern when you know out of 10 games youre going to face 6 different decks. It's a great thing and a bad thing all at the same time. I almost wish the format would stagnate JUST A LITTLE so I could properly build a control deck. I find in Legacy I'm actually facing more of the same decks than I am in Modern and that's really saying something.
It's all good, though. Can't have my blue cake and eat it too.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
having misstep in will diversify the format. people will still play their 1 cost spells, but people will also play 2 and 3 cost spells as well due to the fact you CAN play misstep. it will make delver decks better, but just ban delver. i would be fine with that.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
most people wouldn't be and after seeing what happened to Modern, i think they are fine with Misstep being a Standard/Vintage only card and when its rotated out being only Vintage. it was a mistake to make a free counterspell anyway that isnt named FoW.
(fun fact did u know that Misstep used to be a free Mana Tithe? ya how's that for OP...)
having misstep in will diversify the format. people will still play their 1 cost spells, but people will also play 2 and 3 cost spells as well due to the fact you CAN play misstep. it will make delver decks better, but just ban delver. i would be fine with that.
How would unbanning a card that would HAVE to be played in ever 75 in a tournament bring diversity to the format? MM is a colorless free counter that can go in ANY DECK, and would have to, to be competitive. Thats the definition of narrowing the format, not making it more diverse.
it doesn't have to be played. the threat of it being played will make people build differently and play different things that aren't affected by it. just like in legacy people play around force, despite the fact most of the time they don't have it and its sided out in most game 2s.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
it doesn't have to be played. the threat of it being played will make people build differently and play different things that aren't affected by it. just like in legacy people play around force, despite the fact most of the time they don't have it and its sided out in most game 2s.
How do you play around FoW?
And your saying that unbanning a card that makes everyone change how they build there decks is diversity?
How would unbanning a card that would HAVE to be played in ever 75 in a tournament bring diversity to the format? MM is a colorless free counter that can go in ANY DECK, and would have to, to be competitive. Thats the definition of narrowing the format, not making it more diverse.
the next meta level is that players would use two-mana cards that may have one-mana counterparts, just because you don't want your spell to get misstepped. also, it would slow down the format, not only because a higher percentage of one-drops are getting countered, but because decks are now playing narrow counterspells instead of filtering or win conditions.
misstep broke a cardinal rule by giving hard counterspells without having to have any sort of blue- or island-related resource, but i think its usefulness would ebb and floe with time. It wouldn't be a slam four-of in every deck because at some point somebody would cut them and not run any one-drops and be four cards ahead of the field.
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Quote from ClockworkSwordfish »
Had semenulative upkeep before it was fashionable. Look what you forced me to do, Wizards! IT DIDN'T HAVE TO GO DOWN LIKE THIS!
Quote from LandBoySteve »
Like I said, I can only go by my own experience, which is now 18 years. Kind of disheartening when you think you know something and you find out that you're a notch below a low grade moron.
And your saying that unbanning a card that makes everyone change how they build there decks is diversity?
That is in correct, that is warping.
Agreed.
I don't think some of you have really any idea what you're talking about with Missteps impact on a meta game. If you didn't play Legacy around the time it was legal or if you were unable to realize what it did then you have no business discussing what this card would do to Modern.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
You talk about the format being diverse, but that's not the case at all. They're the same decks repeating themselves' and the majority are also the same style: aggro. This also changes the expensive cards from being stuff like 'goyf and FoW to JUST 'goyf.
If people want a format without really strong control than they can play standard. Does the format suck? Yes. But that's BECAUSE of how limiting it is. Modern shouldn't be like that.
I speak as someone who was really rooting for Modern from the start, and continue to do so.
Wait, what? Because games aren't two decks durdling for twelve turns until someone concedes it's an aggro format? Take a look at the forums here, even. Out of the 13 archetypes listed on the Established board, 3 are aggro decks, and I hardly ever see zoo played (or even attempted) since the Ms. Kitty ban.
Just because durdlenwin.dec isn't valid in the format doesn't mean you can't play a control deck.
the next meta level is that players would use two-mana cards that may have one-mana counterparts, just because you don't want your spell to get misstepped. also, it would slow down the format, not only because a higher percentage of one-drops are getting countered, but because decks are now playing narrow counterspells instead of filtering or win conditions.
A single card that forces every deck in the format to build differently is the definition of format-warping.
The two biggest hinderances to fun in Modern are Delver and Emrakul. Delver restrists deck creation and nothing at all fun happens when someone puts Emrakul on the board. He never shoud have been printed. If they got rid of those two and ubanned some of the fun cards, the format would really improve.
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WoTC, thank you for finally announcing the Modern format, an eternal format where everyone can participate.
I don't think some of you have really any idea what you're talking about with Missteps impact on a meta game. If you didn't play Legacy around the time it was legal or if you were unable to realize what it did then you have no business discussing what this card would do to Modern.
Legacy also has more powerful one drops than modern and relies heavily on them as that format is faster than modern. Also casting Misstep for 2 life does add up.
I personally think it would be fine to unban it but at the same time I'm not going to be in denial of how powerful the card is. It definitely changes how decks are constructed and played, but as I recall when Grafdigger's Cage was spoiled there was a huge uproar about it and then, nothing. Cage barely affected anything. I'm not comparing the two. Obviously a free counterspell is significantly more powerful. I'm just saying has anyone actually spent a LOT of time testing Misstep in modern? Until I see some evidence that it would be as oppressive as it was in legacy I at least think it should be considered.
"I lose the game when this resolves" usually isn't a good enough reason to ban anything. By that logic, we should ban every combo piece, Grapeshot, Empty the Warrens etc etc etc.
It's not like Ulamog and Kozilek aren't similarly backbreaking.
i dont think ulamog and kozilek are even close to as backbreaking.
not sure if its because the extra turn ability, the inability to counter it with anything, or protection from all coloured spells, but when i figure it out i'll get back to you.
i dont think ulamog and kozilek are even close to as backbreaking.
not sure if its because the extra turn ability, the inability to counter it with anything, or protection from all coloured spells, but when i figure it out i'll get back to you.
Thats why you need to have 15 available to play him,its difficult to gather this even with Tron,which is dedicated to it,aside from assembling the tron,you need at least 3 more lands
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Standard
Boring...
Modern WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
Legacy also has more powerful one drops than modern and relies heavily on them as that format is faster than modern. Also casting Misstep for 2 life does add up.
I personally think it would be fine to unban it but at the same time I'm not going to be in denial of how powerful the card is. It definitely changes how decks are constructed and played, but as I recall when Grafdigger's Cage was spoiled there was a huge uproar about it and then, nothing. Cage barely affected anything. I'm not comparing the two. Obviously a free counterspell is significantly more powerful. I'm just saying has anyone actually spent a LOT of time testing Misstep in modern? Until I see some evidence that it would be as oppressive as it was in legacy I at least think it should be considered.
I, too, would like to see testing done.
I actually don't really like Misstep as a card because it is too narrow. It's either really good or really bad, as can be seen in standard. If everyone runs 1 drops, it is amazing. If people stop running 1 drops because of Misstep, it becomes terrible.
Force of Will is completely different because it will always be somewhat useful, even against aggro decks. Your opponent will always have spells, but they won't always have 1 drops.
Would a Force of Will variant that requires 2 cards to exile, but the exiled cards can be anything, be ok to print for modern? Or, what if you had to exile a card that shared a card type with the spell you are countering?
I fear that wizards has simply given up printing free counterspells after the misstep incident, when in reality it is something that is quite needed in a format such as modern, and can easily be balanced (as we see in Shoal)
Would a Force of Will variant that requires 2 cards to exile, but the exiled cards can be anything, be ok to print for modern? Or, what if you had to exile a card that shared a card type with the spell you are countering?
I think it would be very fair if it cost 2 cards to exile and they had to be nonland. Maybe 4 mana to hardcast. At 4 mana its easily played, and the alternate cost could give you that desperation counter you need for a serious tempo loss.
I think it would be very fair if it cost 2 cards to exile and they had to be nonland. Maybe 4 mana to hardcast. At 4 mana its easily played, and the alternate cost could give you that desperation counter you need for a serious tempo loss.
Yeah, I think so too.
The problem with Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap is that it doesn't actually give you a card advantage loss: its a 1:1 trade, but it is situational.
I would prefer a counterspell with a steep alternate cost but could be played in nearly any situation. That's the kind that would reward skillful play, like FoW does.
I actually really like Commandeer and think it is underplayed. It would give fae a strong tool vs tron decks. Stealing their Karn/slaver is easily backbreaking.
i dont think ulamog and kozilek are even close to as backbreaking.
not sure if its because the extra turn ability, the inability to counter it with anything, or protection from all coloured spells, but when i figure it out i'll get back to you.
I've played against Emmy before, once. And that time, I beat him. Sorry, but he's not some invincible monster, he's hard to cast, and even if you do, you can't guarantee a win with it.
The problem with Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap is that it doesn't actually give you a card advantage loss: its a 1:1 trade, but it is situational.
I would prefer a counterspell with a steep alternate cost but could be played in nearly any situation. That's the kind that would reward skillful play, like FoW does.
I actually really like Commandeer and think it is underplayed. It would give fae a strong tool vs tron decks. Stealing their Karn/slaver is easily backbreaking.
I was about to suggest Commandeer. Highly undervalued and underplayed card. I just wish it could hit creatures.
I've played against Emmy before, once. And that time, I beat him. Sorry, but he's not some invincible monster, he's hard to cast, and even if you do, you can't guarantee a win with it.
i've beaten emmy once too with geth's verdict. but that doesnt make up for the other 500+ times ive lost to him.
with emrakul, on average he gives you a 15/15 that cant get countered leading into an extra untap step, an extra draw and an annihilator 6 attack.
I was about to suggest Commandeer. Highly undervalued and underplayed card. I just wish it could hit creatures.
Its close enough to the role that Force of Will fulfills: stopping combo decks for "free", but also useful in other matchups. Maybe the problem is that players are just overlooking options that already exist.
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Sorry, I didn't see that...
I usually just click the banned list link whenever I feel like it and if I see something worth arguing with, I argue with it.
I assure you my arguments in this thread are never meant to be personal.
Thank you for helping me get the thread back on topic, though, btw.
I personally just want a format not dominated by blue based decks like the other 2 eternal formats. So far Wotc has done well in making Modern that format. I hope they continue to keep the diversity.
I personally wouldnt take any of the cards off the ban list you mentioned. Most are way too powerful for the format as it is.
If people want a format without really strong control than they can play standard. Does the format suck? Yes. But that's BECAUSE of how limiting it is. Modern shouldn't be like that.
I speak as someone who was really rooting for Modern from the start, and continue to do so.
Aggro is pretty easy to hate out. Darkblast seems really well-positioned in this format, if that's your thing, but there's some really good 3-mana and even some 2-mana sweepers that could see significant play if "lotsa guys" is what's giving you the business. If your deck can't beat a turn 1 delver, then it probably wasn't very good in the first place.
I do think that mental misstep could easily come off the banned list. Countering a Wild Nacatl with 2 life and no mana was too devastating of a tempo swing against zoo. Countering a Delver of Secrets for 2 life and no mana seems like there's still parity in the game, and personally it would be nice to be able to counter Surgical Extraction or Relic of Progenitus every once in a while, instead of just getting blown out.
Modern is very much so diverse. I think you're confusing aggro with decks like Jund and Delver, consider aside from Affinity those are then only decks that are at the top level that I could even consider someone calling them aggro since the play stle can shift depending on the 75.
I would love a stronger control presence in Modern but its not needed. I'll admit it's frustrating trying to play Teachings or Gifts in Modern when you know out of 10 games youre going to face 6 different decks. It's a great thing and a bad thing all at the same time. I almost wish the format would stagnate JUST A LITTLE so I could properly build a control deck. I find in Legacy I'm actually facing more of the same decks than I am in Modern and that's really saying something.
It's all good, though. Can't have my blue cake and eat it too.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
(fun fact did u know that Misstep used to be a free Mana Tithe? ya how's that for OP...)
Thanks Hero's of the Plane
Modern
-------------
xRxAffinityxRx
How would unbanning a card that would HAVE to be played in ever 75 in a tournament bring diversity to the format? MM is a colorless free counter that can go in ANY DECK, and would have to, to be competitive. Thats the definition of narrowing the format, not making it more diverse.
How do you play around FoW?
And your saying that unbanning a card that makes everyone change how they build there decks is diversity?
That is in correct, that is warping.
Thanks to Heroes of the Plane Studios for the amazing sig.
NO RUG: Primer
Tempo Thresh: Primer
the next meta level is that players would use two-mana cards that may have one-mana counterparts, just because you don't want your spell to get misstepped. also, it would slow down the format, not only because a higher percentage of one-drops are getting countered, but because decks are now playing narrow counterspells instead of filtering or win conditions.
misstep broke a cardinal rule by giving hard counterspells without having to have any sort of blue- or island-related resource, but i think its usefulness would ebb and floe with time. It wouldn't be a slam four-of in every deck because at some point somebody would cut them and not run any one-drops and be four cards ahead of the field.
Agreed.
I don't think some of you have really any idea what you're talking about with Missteps impact on a meta game. If you didn't play Legacy around the time it was legal or if you were unable to realize what it did then you have no business discussing what this card would do to Modern.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Wait, what? Because games aren't two decks durdling for twelve turns until someone concedes it's an aggro format? Take a look at the forums here, even. Out of the 13 archetypes listed on the Established board, 3 are aggro decks, and I hardly ever see zoo played (or even attempted) since the Ms. Kitty ban.
Just because durdlenwin.dec isn't valid in the format doesn't mean you can't play a control deck.
EDIT:
A single card that forces every deck in the format to build differently is the definition of format-warping.
Hmmm, weren't you a die hard legacy player? I think I remember you from the legacy ban list thread, always defending blue dominance there.
Legacy also has more powerful one drops than modern and relies heavily on them as that format is faster than modern. Also casting Misstep for 2 life does add up.
I personally think it would be fine to unban it but at the same time I'm not going to be in denial of how powerful the card is. It definitely changes how decks are constructed and played, but as I recall when Grafdigger's Cage was spoiled there was a huge uproar about it and then, nothing. Cage barely affected anything. I'm not comparing the two. Obviously a free counterspell is significantly more powerful. I'm just saying has anyone actually spent a LOT of time testing Misstep in modern? Until I see some evidence that it would be as oppressive as it was in legacy I at least think it should be considered.
i dont think ulamog and kozilek are even close to as backbreaking.
not sure if its because the extra turn ability, the inability to counter it with anything, or protection from all coloured spells, but when i figure it out i'll get back to you.
Thats why you need to have 15 available to play him,its difficult to gather this even with Tron,which is dedicated to it,aside from assembling the tron,you need at least 3 more lands
Boring...
Modern
WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB
RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH
XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED
GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
I, too, would like to see testing done.
I actually don't really like Misstep as a card because it is too narrow. It's either really good or really bad, as can be seen in standard. If everyone runs 1 drops, it is amazing. If people stop running 1 drops because of Misstep, it becomes terrible.
Force of Will is completely different because it will always be somewhat useful, even against aggro decks. Your opponent will always have spells, but they won't always have 1 drops.
Would a Force of Will variant that requires 2 cards to exile, but the exiled cards can be anything, be ok to print for modern? Or, what if you had to exile a card that shared a card type with the spell you are countering?
I fear that wizards has simply given up printing free counterspells after the misstep incident, when in reality it is something that is quite needed in a format such as modern, and can easily be balanced (as we see in Shoal)
I think it would be very fair if it cost 2 cards to exile and they had to be nonland. Maybe 4 mana to hardcast. At 4 mana its easily played, and the alternate cost could give you that desperation counter you need for a serious tempo loss.
Yeah, I think so too.
The problem with Mental Misstep and Mindbreak Trap is that it doesn't actually give you a card advantage loss: its a 1:1 trade, but it is situational.
I would prefer a counterspell with a steep alternate cost but could be played in nearly any situation. That's the kind that would reward skillful play, like FoW does.
I actually really like Commandeer and think it is underplayed. It would give fae a strong tool vs tron decks. Stealing their Karn/slaver is easily backbreaking.
I've played against Emmy before, once. And that time, I beat him. Sorry, but he's not some invincible monster, he's hard to cast, and even if you do, you can't guarantee a win with it.
I was about to suggest Commandeer. Highly undervalued and underplayed card. I just wish it could hit creatures.
i've beaten emmy once too with geth's verdict. but that doesnt make up for the other 500+ times ive lost to him.
with emrakul, on average he gives you a 15/15 that cant get countered leading into an extra untap step, an extra draw and an annihilator 6 attack.
Its close enough to the role that Force of Will fulfills: stopping combo decks for "free", but also useful in other matchups. Maybe the problem is that players are just overlooking options that already exist.