[Discussion] Current Modern Ban List (12/20/2011 Update)

  • #1590
    I played a game with my Modern deck against a deck from classic, I think it was a GW aggro deck. He drew very bad, had bad luck, etc, but won the game exclusively thanks to jitte. Not saying it shouldn't be unbanned because of this, it's just an example.
    IMO, jitte should be unbanned if half or more of the ban list was lifted... only.
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #1591
    With Modern deciding Player of the year, I dont see them changing the B&R list at all until that tournament is over. Which would mean fall would be the next change to the list.

    That being said, I expect all deck manipulation that puts cards on top of a deck to be eliminated or the overly powered miracle cards that can be abuse with it to be gone, one or the other.

    Depending on how the player of the year tournament goes, I dont expect too much change to the B&R list for next season.
    Back to limited, I wash my hands of Modern. It was fun while it lasted, but the format is no longer fun for me.
  • #1592
    Quote from Nyzzeh
    I played a game with my Modern deck against a deck from classic, I think it was a GW aggro deck. He drew very bad, had bad luck, etc, but won the game exclusively thanks to jitte. Not saying it shouldn't be unbanned because of this, it's just an example.
    IMO, jitte should be unbanned if half or more of the ban list was lifted... only.


    Completely agree, it may not be good against every deck in the format but it's too good at winning games pretty much on it's own against creature based decks. With modern being a very aggro heavy format it would be too good and probably completely change the meta on it's own. I often see people arguing that it's safe to come off because the swords don't cause any problems in the format, but the people making those arguments don't realize how much worse than Jitte the swords are, especially without Stoneforge in the mix.
  • #1593
    Quote from bocephus
    That being said, I expect all deck manipulation that puts cards on top of a deck to be eliminated or the overly powered miracle cards that can be abuse with it to be gone, one or the other.
    I am not saying you are right or wrong, but doesn't that smack of terrible design? Lets print some cards (have not counted how many miracle cards there are) who's presence means we will surely have to ban as many or more cards to keep the new cards from warping a meta. That makes me think that in their testing they found that there was not as much of a broken interaction as people anticipate, but I also look at some of them and are shocked at the power-level. I am waiting till they get some wider testing to make a final judgment, but they worry me.
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #1594
    Quote from micaelmorais
    Did they already banned time walk 2.0 and reforge the nuts??


    first, the ban list is published by wizards the 3/20,6/20,9/20 and 12/20 every year

    second,i think you and bochephus are overestimating the value of miracle cards.
    now the patches for cockatrice and mws are out. so you can try it.
    i do it, exspecially with the 2 cards you name.

    time walk 2.0 in modern is horrible. if i should reinforce the cocnept more with the graphics, i will do it. i try and try it, but the most time a simply serum visions is better than this cycle card that you can't play when you want.

    reforge the soul is a little better. it's surely the dream of burn player ( but even this sometimes remains in the hand) and maybe in storm can be useful, but i don't know. But surely it's far away from ban.

    the only miralce i find a little broken is the bolt. but also this far away from ban
  • #1595
    Quote from DrWorm
    I am not saying you are right or wrong, but doesn't that smack of terrible design? Lets print some cards (have not counted how many miracle cards there are) who's presence means we will surely have to ban as many or more cards to keep the new cards from warping a meta. That makes me think that in their testing they found that there was not as much of a broken interaction as people anticipate, but I also look at some of them and are shocked at the power-level. I am waiting till they get some wider testing to make a final judgment, but they worry me.


    Sometimes I feel like they don't mind banning old cards if it means they can print new cards that sell product. It's most likely that they miss things in testing, but sometimes I wonder if they saw it and just went with it to sell product. Like when they planned to print an event deck with 2x Stoneforge mystic knowing that they're printing batterskull which is too obvious of a broken interaction to miss. That just screamed let's make money off of this before we ban it.

    About miracles, I think it could maybe go either way. They could either flop because they're inconsistent or be completely broken. I'm not really sure because I haven't been trying them in decks and I'm probably not the best person to be a judge on it anyway even if I were trying them out. I'd like to see how some of them perform in a list that runs Magma Jet, Condescend and other cards that manipulate the top of your library. Some sort of RUG tempo or UR delver.
  • #1596
    Reforge the Soul is pretty insane, I've managed to cast it 6+ times in one game with PiF so I wouldn't be hugely surprised if it gets banned. I say its borderline too good in Modern because you're basically about 1 ritual short of pushing the deck firmly to being a turn 2-3 deck.
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  • #1597
    So... let's talk about Gifts Ungiven. Does it bother anyone else that this card is essentially a one-card combo? Unburial Iona means that they win if I'm playing Burn, but I'm wondering if other decks have better ways to deal with this even if their main removal color gets named?

    Especially since it was clearly never intended to function in the way it currently functions (as a 2-card Buried Alive for spells), and Wizards doesn't do power-level errata any more, I feel like Gifts is a prime candidate for a banning. The real question is if it warps the format. Is Tron actually dominant enough for it to matter?
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    I think "legit <snip>" is my new favorite slang term.


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  • #1598
    G. Verhey told me gifts, in this fast Modern format, is the finisher and "not combo", which I don't agree with.
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #1599
    It's decidedly not a combo in and of itself. It grabs the combo, which can be countered or exiled from the yard in response. Not a lot of great answers, granted. It's just really stupid that you can find fewer than 4 cards with it.
    Last edited by Raalic: 4/27/2012 4:06:40 PM
    Embrace reality. Deal with the facts, live with the truth.
  • #1600
    They should change the rules so that it's only possible to fetch less than 4 if your library contains less than 4.
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #1601
    Or they should allow opponents to choose fewer than two cards. It's wonky as it is.
    Embrace reality. Deal with the facts, live with the truth.
  • #1602
    Quote from Nyzzeh
    They should change the rules so that it's only possible to fetch less than 4 if your library contains less than 4.

    They can't change this, because of cards like Rampant Growth. What happens if you cast Rampant Growth but you forgot you have no basics left in your deck? You are required to show your deck to your opponent to prove it? I don't think they will be changing the fail-to-find rule any time soon.
    Quote from Raalic
    Or they should allow opponents to choose fewer than two cards. It's wonky as it is.

    That would be a power-level errata, which they don't do any more, mostly because it's confusing when cards don't do what they say they do. Wizards' new solution to power-level errata is to just ban the card. See Flash.
    Quote from Raalic
    It's decidedly not a combo in and of itself. It grabs the combo, which can be countered or exiled from the yard in response. Not a lot of great answers, granted. It's just really stupid that you can find fewer than 4 cards with it.

    I'm aware that Gifts itself doesn't win you the game when you cast it, and you can counter or exile stuff to stop it, but my point was that you don't have to dig for multiple cards to "go off". You don't have to Faithless Looting, Mulch, Serum Visions or whatever to get your hand/graveyard sculpted. All you have to do is Gifts, and everything is ready to go. If they banned Ponder and Preordain for making Storm too consistent, and Gifts is a one-card consistency engine, I feel like it really deserves the banhammer.

    On top of its combo power, it's played in a control deck. It's not like Storm, where they straight up lose if you counter their Seething Song, or just Mindbreak Trap their Grapeshot. It also doesn't require the entire deck to be built around it like Storm. It's a no-brainer to just cram in 4 Gifts, Unburial and a fatty toolbox into any UW deck. UW Tron can still just hardcast Karn or something equally ridiculous if you counter their Unburial Rites or Surgical Iona or whatever.
    Quote from JackMahone54
    Past in Flames is the stone cold nuts.

    I think "legit <snip>" is my new favorite slang term.


    Proud member of Fires Rf Salvation

    Currently Playing:
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    WURRWU ControlRUW
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    RGBProssh, Skyraider of KherBGR
    inactive trade thread
  • #1603
    Quote from Uranium
    They can't change this, because of cards like Rampant Growth. What happens if you cast Rampant Growth but you forgot you have no basics left in your deck? You are required to show your deck to your opponent to prove it?
    I don't think that is so bad a solution. It is better than the current state of things.

    That would be a power-level errata, which they don't do any more, mostly because it's confusing when cards don't do what they say they do.
    Uh, but does it really do what it says. Every person I have talked to about this card had no idea you could do this until I told them, and I had no idea for years either. If the possibilities intrinsic with the card are not clear to most players who read the card, then is it really doing exactly what it says?
    I'm aware that Gifts itself doesn't win you the game when you cast it, and you can counter or exile stuff to stop it, but my point was that you don't have to dig for multiple cards to "go off". You don't have to Faithless Looting, Mulch, Serum Visions or whatever to get your hand/graveyard sculpted. All you have to do is Gifts, and everything is ready to go. If they banned Ponder and Preordain for making Storm too consistent, and Gifts is a one-card consistency engine, I feel like it really deserves the banhammer.
    I really think this is another situation where people are not looking at all the possibilities. Actually, it seems to me like every call for a ban lately can be dealt with pretty easily by graveyard hate, so I have no clue why it is not being used more. Sure, Grafdigger's Cage and Leyline of the Void are not the best card when it comes to tempo, but sometimes you have take a little hit in order to succeed over a certain strategy.
    Last edited by DrWorm: 4/27/2012 6:18:30 PM
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #1604
    Plains. I think the Plains deck has gotten out of hand. Motion to ban all plains?

    Smile

    How does everyone feel about the tron lands. Yes, much much less consistent than cloud post, but I'm wondering how people feel about it.
  • #1605
    I really think that Herbal Poultice needs the axe. I mean come on, it's called Herbal Poultice Deck Wins for a reason!

    I personally have a pretty big distaste for Tron as a deck myself, maybe it stems from my hatred of Eldrazi and the shameless fanservice of the Karn planeswalker (and how ridiculous his abilities are) but as much as it irks me it's not an unbeatable deck.
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  • #1606
    UW and UR Tron... they are not my favorite type of tron (I liked the old extended ones) but they are okay IMO.
    RG Tron is stupid but not bannable.
    Hey yo, a little star over here, a stirrings over there, and oh! Karn! Here comes dah maainnnnzlaverz!
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    Last edited by Nyzzeh: 4/27/2012 5:48:54 PM
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #1607
    I've only lost to Tron when I keep bad hands with no disruption. A Ghost Quarter and Extirpate is usually enough to clock that deck. Often enough that deck just loses to itself though.
    Legacy Decks
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  • #1608
    The only version of tron that I've had trouble with is the one that goes turn 3 gifts into rites/iona. Other than that I find tron isn't able to stabilize fast enough, unless I draw a bad hand.
  • #1609
    Quote from Mikeageddon
    The only version of tron that I've had trouble with is the one that goes turn 3 gifts into rites/iona. Other than that I find tron isn't able to stabilize fast enough, unless I draw a bad hand.


    Even that is easy to hate out with Tormod's Crypt and Relic.
    Legacy Decks
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    Modern
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  • #1610
    Quote from DrWorm
    I am not saying you are right or wrong, but doesn't that smack of terrible design? Lets print some cards (have not counted how many miracle cards there are) who's presence means we will surely have to ban as many or more cards to keep the new cards from warping a meta. That makes me think that in their testing they found that there was not as much of a broken interaction as people anticipate, but I also look at some of them and are shocked at the power-level. I am waiting till they get some wider testing to make a final judgment, but they worry me.


    The way I see it is they make new sets for limited and Standard. They can ban or more or less adjust older formats to the power level they wish. Whats perfectly fine in Standard can be totally broken in older formats. So, if the miracle cards work fine in Standard (especially since ponder could get the axe in the rotation) they can ban or adjust Modern or Legacy as they feel fit. If they were going to try and make cards work in all formats, Standard would be the slowest, most boring format of them all and it would be hard to keep the masses interested in it.

    By the way, all its going to take is 1 of the miracle cards to be completely busted in some way and they will ban something IMHO.
    Back to limited, I wash my hands of Modern. It was fun while it lasted, but the format is no longer fun for me.
  • #1611
    I think its just too easy to see the best case scenario with miracles. At the end of the day they are just spells like any other, just potentially mana saving not even free! If you build your deck to set them up to get value congratulations you made a deck, just like others that set up to take advantage of Splinter Twin, Gifts, Loam, BBE or even Delver. Time walk is powerful but if you dont have pressure or planes walkers on the board its not as good, its that second attack step that makes it amazing and not just explore. Lots of durdeling to set up just for some value not even to win the game outright.

    Edit: Oh yes and I wanted to comment on graveyard hate, I was super hoping for a land that did this. "Tap add 1 Tap 1 Exile target card from a graveyard" is not to powerful, card advantage from yard abilities are mostly incidental any how. The problem is all these narrow slotted artifacts even if they cantrip you need them at the right time, and otherwise do nothing. Its so easy to get massive value from the yard it should be just as easy to thwart it.
    Last edited by Chromatone: 4/27/2012 10:39:51 PM
  • #1612
    Quote from bocephus
    The way I see it is they make new sets for limited and Standard. They can ban or more or less adjust older formats to the power level they wish.
    They have that philosophy with regard to eternal formats, but MaRo has said that Modern is part of their balancing process. Sure, they have shown themselves as quick to ban in Modern, but so far only in the case of cards from previous sets.

    ID+A, however, was designed without knowledge of Modern, now that I think about it, so it actually falls outside that paradigm.
    Quote from Chromatone
    The problem is all these narrow slotted artifacts even if they cantrip you need them at the right time, and otherwise do nothing. Its so easy to get massive value from the yard it should be just as easy to thwart it.
    Most reactive or prophylactic cards have to be available at the right time, Doom Blade does not do much good against a BW deck unless you draw it when your opponent has a white creature in play, that does not make them bad or unplayable. Grave hate artifacts are narrow, in that they only deal with graveyard decks, but there are so many flavors of them in the metagame that they become much less narrow.
    Last edited by DrWorm: 4/27/2012 11:45:34 PM
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #1613
    Quote from DrWorm
    They have that philosophy with regard to eternal formats, but MaRo has said that Modern is part of their balancing process. Sure, they have shown themselves as quick to ban in Modern, but so far only in the case of cards from previous sets.

    ID+A, however, was designed without knowledge of Modern, now that I think about it, so it actually falls outside that paradigm.
    Most reactive or prophylactic cards have to be available at the right time, Doom Blade does not do much good against a BW deck unless you draw it when your opponent has a white creature in play, that does not make them bad or unplayable. Grave hate artifacts are narrow, in that they only deal with graveyard decks, but there are so many flavors of them in the metagame that they become much less narrow.

    I see it like that: Everything that isn't played MB is narrow. There aren't enough decks that utilise graveyard to a great extend, to justify gy hate MB, especially because the gy hate doesn't do much against other decks.
    Quote from Mortal Coil

    Cross Format Relevancy in partiuclar doesn't seem to have any rhyme or reason applied to it. If it was strictly applied, Tarmogoyf, Snapcaster, Dark Confidant, Liliana of the Veil, Deathrite Shaman, Abrupt Decay, Delver of Secrets, Past in Flames, Lingering Souls, Emrakul, Aether Vial, Trinket Mage would be illegal. So at what point are these sorts of cards banned? To what sets and formats does it even apply? We don't know.
  • #1614
    Quote from Ignithas
    I see it like that: Everything that isn't played MB is narrow. There aren't enough decks that utilise graveyard to a great extend, to justify gy hate MB, especially because the gy hate doesn't do much against other decks.
    For most metas you are correct- GY hate is something you put in the SB, but I have also run 4x Void MD, and have been very pleased with the results. I built with it in mind, so it was rarely a dead card game one, and if I don't need it I have other toys in my SB. I think that if you are looking at decks tier 2 and better you have a significant percentage of the general metagame that relies in the grave, but I will say agian that it is probably safer to put the hate in the SB.
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
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