The real problem in this thread is some have been spoiled by playing with broken oppressive cards and thats what they enjoy playing with. They are in the minority of the magic community. They get upset when no one wants to play their type magic.
Broken, mistake of a card is broken, mistake of a card. Its not what any format needs let alone a new format trying to balance itself out.
Honestabe and Torm come off (to me) as players who want Legacy type power in Modern without the cards to keep that power in check. They enjoy the turn 0-2 wins that their opponent cant do anything about. I am not saying there is anything wrong with being that type of a player or even wanting that in the format as long as they dont get it. Same can be said for players like me who enjoy a more balanced, slower format where more cards in the pool can be used. As long as Wotc keeps all parties involved wanting more, the format should be good.
I think you're all just assuming too much about each other. This thread is honestly fine. The only blatant disrespect I've seen are from the same people, over and over, because their position is being argued. If you guys aren't going to debate about these cards in a reasonable manner and throw the "Modern doesn't need them! Control players blah blah" argument out every single time then you may as well just shut up. The other people can talk about it fine without being told they're stupid and the kind of player who sits there, cackling to themselves as they drop turn 2 Emrakul's unopposed or Storm's out.
I'd also really like to see the control deck that wins on turn 2. It's not like modern has Show and Tell >_>
Also, y'know, like it or not; Modern is flawed enough to enough people to the point where all you see on these boards are people talking about how their locals can't get enough people. This isn't about price barrier, a lot of players already had a lot of these cards (Like myself) just form playing from Rav - onwards. So it's clearly lacking something. Dunno' what, I don't want to just blame the ban list. I hate it but it's reasonable, at least. But there's surely something.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
No. Accusing people who do not like the card as being "butthurt" and using that as a method to belittle their position is not now nor will ever be a legitimate argument.
People may not like him but this in no way means these people are butthurt and it does not mean that there are no legitimate arguments for keeping Jace banned.
You are seriously the last person I'd expect to support this ****ing immature behavoir. I'm extremely surprised at you.
That's just it though- unbanning Jace has strings attached, and one of those strings is likely ticking off a portion of the populace. Ancestral Vision is likely not going to anger anyone if it comes off the B/R list. Jace, however, would cause a very visceral reaction among a percentage of the playerbase, even if he was perfectly fine in the format. And given that the format is still young and establishing a playerbase (and has some cost issues currently), introducing a $75+ card (Jace would jump) might be more trouble than it's worth for reasons other than strict format balance.
I'm not really supporting the behavior- but he's got a point about the card having a perception problem. I didn't take his comments to be referring to anyone specifically in this thread. (I don't think the people in this thread are the ones that would riot if Jace were unbanned.)
That's just it though- unbanning Jace has strings attached, and one of those strings is likely ticking off a portion of the populace. Ancestral Vision is likely not going to anger anyone if it comes off the B/R list. Jace, however, would cause a very visceral reaction among a percentage of the playerbase, even if he was perfectly fine in the format. And given that the format is still young and establishing a playerbase (and has some cost issues currently), introducing a $75+ card (Jace would jump) might be more trouble than it's worth for reasons other than strict format balance.
I'm not really supporting the behavior- but he's got a point about the card having a perception problem. I didn't take his comments to be referring to anyone specifically in this thread. (I don't think the people in this thread are the ones that would riot if Jace were unbanned.)
QFT. Jace really has an elephant in the room complex going for it. People forget there's no SFM mystic, Hawk's and Swords to protect him as well in Modern and a lot of times he would be dead in the hand and equally dead on the board.
$75? Try $100 (at least at first)
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By: ol MISAKA lo
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Also, y'know, like it or not; Modern is flawed enough to enough people to the point where all you see on these boards are people talking about how their locals can't get enough people. This isn't about price barrier, a lot of players already had a lot of these cards (Like myself) just form playing from Rav - onwards. So it's clearly lacking something. Dunno' what, I don't want to just blame the ban list. I hate it but it's reasonable, at least. But there's surely something.
Well said. That is a very good illustration of where we are today.
Well said. That is a very good illustration of where we are today.
I honestly don't understand it. It must be a regional thing. A few posters in this section really seem to love Modern with an undying passion so you think there would be more people like them. That's why I don't get this outlook where if you don't like the ban list you must like only broken cards and that labels you as the minority.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
The problem with establishing Modern is that if there's already an established Legacy scene locally, it's going to be very hard to compete with it. No amount of B/R tinkering is going to be able to deal with that issue. Only time will.
The problem with establishing Modern is that if there's already an established Legacy scene locally, it's going to be very hard to compete with it. No amount of B/R tinkering is going to be able to deal with that issue. Only time will.
You could be right. They better get those reprints going ASAP then. Looking at Legacy and then comparing it to modern is not only unfair it's unrealistic. Still trying to get people that are investing heavily into Legacy and Standard to spend money on Modern is asking way too much at the current cost of entry.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
The problem with establishing Modern is that if there's already an established Legacy scene locally, it's going to be very hard to compete with it. No amount of B/R tinkering is going to be able to deal with that issue. Only time will.
In my area there is no Legacy (or for that matter Vintage) community to speak of- all of the local shops have tried to have legacy tournaments but no one shows up, so that is not a factor. After PTQ, however, Modern basically disappeared outside of the occasional casual event, so something is happening. I am not talking about one shop either, I am talking about at least five shops (I have not been to the others in town) in a market as large as Seattle's.
Additionally, one of the most popular formats locally is EDH, and as a result many folks have some of the more expensive Modern staples, and since most people have several decks at once they have the staples in multiples.
Also, y'know, like it or not; Modern is flawed enough to enough people to the point where all you see on these boards are people talking about how their locals can't get enough people. This isn't about price barrier, a lot of players already had a lot of these cards (Like myself) just form playing from Rav - onwards. So it's clearly lacking something. Dunno' what, I don't want to just blame the ban list. I hate it but it's reasonable, at least. But there's surely something.
Its part of a new format. The same thing happened with Legacy when it was first introduced for almost 2 years. It was only played during PTQ season and disappeared in the off times. Same thing happened in OE.
It seems from reading these boards different formats are popular in different parts of the country at different times. EDH use to be huge here about a year ago. There were leagues and weekly 4-5 man tournies for EDH at almost every shop. This year they cant get more then 2 or 3 guys to come out for and EDH league. This year Modern is the flavor of choice. I expected once PTQ season ended, so would the popularity of MOdern, but last weekend one of the shops held a tourny and had over 40 show up. The week before that another shop had a SCG qualifier and ran a Modern side event that had almost 70 in it. The same shop has a decent Legacy crowd (Legacy tournies always pop with more then 8) and a small but loyal Vintage group.
Wotc cant afford to alienate those who are playing now in the hope to draw others. Maybe Modern will die a slow death too. Who knows. Got to give them credit for trying. There is going to come a point they just wont try anymore and players will be left with Standard and limited.
The problem right now where I live is that anyone who would want to play modern has already invested in legacy. The general opinion is, why put money into playing an eternal format that is less enjoyable than the one you already have cards for.
I'm thinking once the top decks in the format start to get a little bit more interesting modern will take off again. Right now everything's just so bland in the format, look at the top 5 (Affinity, Jund, Tron, Twin and storm) they're all just so straight forward.
The real problem in this thread is some have been spoiled by playing with broken oppressive cards and thats what they enjoy playing with. They are in the minority of the magic community. They get upset when no one wants to play their type magic.
Broken, mistake of a card is broken, mistake of a card. Its not what any format needs let alone a new format trying to balance itself out.
Honestabe and Torm come off (to me) as players who want Legacy type power in Modern without the cards to keep that power in check. They enjoy the turn 0-2 wins that their opponent cant do anything about. I am not saying there is anything wrong with being that type of a player or even wanting that in the format as long as they dont get it. Same can be said for players like me who enjoy a more balanced, slower format where more cards in the pool can be used. As long as Wotc keeps all parties involved wanting more, the format should be good.
Here we go again. I still don't know where you get that I want turn 0-2 wins. Show me one place where I said I wanted Modern to be some crazy combo format. If you can turn Jace TMS, Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom and Green Sun's into turn 0-2 wins, then you got me. However, until then, stop saying that.
I think the day that Modern is supported on the SCG circuit is the day it explodes into being seen as "OMG MODERN IS THE BESTTTTTTTTTT" by the general Magic populace. Similar to what happened with Legacy. Please correct me if i'm wrong but, i'm quite sure that Legacy exploded into popularity once SCG started running 5ks for it. If that starts happening with Modern, look out MTG.
Honestabe and Torm come off (to me) as players who want Legacy type power in Modern without the cards to keep that power in check. They enjoy the turn 0-2 wins that their opponent cant do anything about. I am not saying there is anything wrong with being that type of a player or even wanting that in the format as long as they dont get it. Same can be said for players like me who enjoy a more balanced, slower format where more cards in the pool can be used. As long as Wotc keeps all parties involved wanting more, the format should be good.
If i wanted legacy like power I'd go play Legacy, (currently I'm working on assembling a Legacy deck, albeit slowly); But, i think your opinion is well, good considering some of the posts I made, so I'll waste some time explaining to you why it's wrong =D! The cards that I think are unfairly banned, GSZ, Jace(could go either way, tbh), Bitterblossom, Nacatl, and AV all slow down the game; (except Nacatl, I just think his banning is wrong, I'll get to him later);
Bitterblossom sets up walls vs. Aggro, and Fuels the hyper-Tempo strategy of Faeries, it also provides amazing CA and Fodder for GB based rock/mid-range decks (these decks stood toe to toe with Fae while Goyf was legal, btw), it also provides a great Two drop for B/W tokens. The unbanning of BB would support three archetypes to T1 power; and I DOUBT it would do anything except force Delver to play answers to it MD; (Bant Delver with Pridemages would be my first gut instinct, but that's beside my point).
GSZ adds a level of consistency to the game that is healthy for green decks; in a G1 situation vs. Control, you could GSZ for X=4, and thinking, you won't be getting Teeg, you grab Teeg. It's a card you can be cute with. It does a wonderful job of battling control, and combo due to the toolbox effect it gives your deck; And for Bant it also makes it easier to have a hand that curves out the way you want it to. They banned GSZ because of Zoo (At least, this is what i remember it being, i could of course be wrong, please correct me if i am), but they managed to stifle mid-range decks with the banning.
Ancestral Visions: I don't think it's any secret that control is lacking a decent source of CA that lets them draw cards with CC > 3-4. Certainly the true control decks like Gifts and Teachings could use it to be able to reload (3 turns later, I'd like to point out) against the onslaught that is affinity and Zoo. I mean, if you compare the Card to Snapcaster Mage, which one, in your mind is actually stronger in the format? The dude that let's you kill 3 dudes for 5 mana and 2 cards? Or the dude that let's you get 0-3 answers three entire turns later? I think in a format where the CA monster that Snapcaster is legal in is a fine place for AV; considering in my opinion AV is generally weaker.
Jace, TMS: Well, let's be honest here, he helped wreck a format. But, I think we should look to before that; When he was played in the UW control deck that was full of cards to smash Jund, Jund still had a decent MU against the deck. Not only that but, the other decks in the format also managed against Jace, simply because cards like O'Ring existed; This is a format with very efficient creatures that wouldn't mind at ALL being bounced, and pretty decent permanent removal and a format where Pithing Needle could easily be added to ANY SIDEBOARD. Seriously, it's a great card in LOTS of MUs. I think overall, no deck is really 'afraid' of Jace in the same way that every deck in the Post-Alara Standard was afraid of him; The only decent removal for Jace at that time was Your own Jace. Or playing a Jace B. on T3 before they could set theirs up; That is rather unhealthy, don't you think? That led to his unquestionable dominance, imo.
Wild Nacatl: I think a lot of people would agree with me on this; at least I hope so, man. I think it's rather... dumb to think Nacatl is too strong in a format where Delver exists; I will grant you this, Nacatl (with the aid of Fetches, of course) is more 'consistently' a 3/3 and the later versions also happen to be 3/3, but Delver, of course, can start a 3/2 Flier clock on T2; that's pretty good, eh? In a format with the efficiency of Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, and Smother, you'd think a card like Nacatl would be fair; at least, that's my opinion. You can argue against it, if you'd like. But right now Zoo has Vexing Devil; He's nearly as good as Nacatl, you could make a case of him being strictly better or worse, but that's no the point, he fills the same position (admirably, imo) and puts up a good amount of pressure, and with him the deck isn't crushing the format; it certainly came to be a archetype to test against, but it is by no means the terror it was in the 12-post days; but hey, the format changed (for the better), so what do you expect? And I mean, if all those sweet control cards get unbanned, Zoo will need him back
So, if you look at the cards I'd lobby for, you'll see that they aren't "Legacy Power", they're "Past Standard and Past Extended Power" - So please, don't call me a "Legacy Lite Monger", think of me as the "Heir to the Past Standard and Extended Eternal Format Monger". Because, honestly, some of the cards that are indeed Legal in the format are just as powerful if not MORE powerful and format warping then the cards I'd like to see OFF the list.
I, like you, want a slower more skill intensive format, I just view getting there in a different way, my friend. Because, currently I do not believe we're there. Just look at 4 of the major decks in the format, Affinity, RG Tron, Twin, and Storm.
The problem right now where I live is that anyone who would want to play modern has already invested in legacy. The general opinion is, why put money into playing an eternal format that is less enjoyable than the one you already have cards for.
I'm thinking once the top decks in the format start to get a little bit more interesting modern will take off again. Right now everything's just so bland in the format, look at the top 5 (Affinity, Jund, Tron, Twin and storm) they're all just so straight forward.
All of the "top 5" have glaring holes in their game plan. So much so, that if one of them is trending up enough so people play it en masse (think RG Tron when it was discovered), then one can metagame a tournament with a tier 1.5 or 2 stretegy (of which there are plenty) and take down a whole tournament. Storm won PTQs after RG tron became a deck, solely because it can t4 pretty consistently even through 1 Karn activation...
I like this aspect of this format. That the deck that is en vogue can be meta-hated out.
That is unique to this format.
Affinity- loses to well timed ancient grudges
Tron - loses to quick aggression and land and/or hand disruption
Twin- Loses to 2 Soul Warden Effects, Tempo, or Combust
Jund- Loses to chained Wurmcoil Engines or a quick undisrupted combo (storm or twin)
Storm- Loses to itself, Spell Snare, Relic etc....(this deck is really not tier 1 but a glass cannon, IMO)...
do these plans work 100% of the time. Well, no. It's called "variance" and "drawing good"...
I don't understand the continued ban list
Nothing that anyone posts here is even going to be in the consideration of the B&R committee. They may come and look, see the bad (see fallacious and/or biased) and insulting arguments, and then still make a decision based on their own "findings"...
And those that are arguing JTMS needs to come off, don't get your hopes up...Probably not happening. Like, ever.
I don't care where JTMS is. Unban the whole list for all I care, but I am just saying; don't hold your breath. not.happening.ever.
I'm thinking once the top decks in the format start to get a little bit more interesting modern will take off again. Right now everything's just so bland in the format, look at the top 5 (Affinity, Jund, Tron, Twin and storm) they're all just so straight forward.
I blame blandness on the people being scared to create a deck and go through the process of tuning it. Of course it'll stagnate if a lot of players just play what is in the established section. I don't have anything against net-deckers, but one of the stores that I went to was birthing pod central.
Modern has a big card pool, and the format is slow enough to try things. I feel like laziness hurts the format more than anything, in my city at least.
Sadly there isn't anything we can do about it.
Well the fact that tapping out turn 4 you can just die to combo or agro. Pulse, Bolt, Geist, Leak, Spell Pierce, Duress, Thought Sieze, Vendilion, Bbe, Karn, Eldrazi, Seismic Assalt etc. etc. are all good against him. Just look at his impact when he first came out. Modern is even more hostile to him than that. IF any thing he gives control a chance to actually be a deck. It was being surrounded by SfM and Preordain with no direct anser to a resolved Jace that broke him in standard, even then I would still side him out Vs boros.
Just so it's clear, if Jace got unbanned I wouldn't really care. I'd sadface a bit, but such is the game and we adapt. HOWEVER, while you do bring up a good point, I'd like point out that a lot of the pre-emptive answers (the ones i've bolded) can also be used BY decks running Jace which would make it a lot more vicious to play against.
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They call me Hank Hill because I bring the pro-pain.
Wotc cant afford to alienate those who are playing now in the hope to draw others.
The do it with Standard. They may end up alienating people that like to play counter control, in order to draw players who get upset when they have to play against counter control. I am not saying this will happen with Modern, but pointing out that they do subscribe to that method for format maintenance sometimes.
The do it with Standard. They may end up alienating people that like to play counter control, in order to draw players who get upset when they have to play against counter control. I am not saying this will happen with Modern, but pointing out that they do subscribe to that method for format maintenance sometimes.
They have a proven commodity in Standard. They know roughly the amount of control players, combo players, aggro players and all combinations of those. They know those who play draw go control (which honestly is the control you are talking about) is a small portion of players. They know what happens when control dominates Standard, attendance falls off sharply. ( I am by no means saying they need to get rid of draw go control in Standard)
In Modern, they have no guarantees of who would play if they shifted the meta. They could be far worse off by shifting.
They have a proven commodity in Standard. They know roughly the amount of control players, combo players, aggro players and all combinations of those. They know those who play draw go control (which honestly is the control you are talking about) is a small portion of players. They know what happens when control dominates Standard, attendance falls off sharply. ( I am by no means saying they need to get rid of draw go control in Standard)
In Modern, they have no guarantees of who would play if they shifted the meta. They could be far worse off by shifting.
Or they could do far better and people would actually want to play this format all around the country rather than in the few areas where it is popular as opposed to the many areas where people would rather play limited.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
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Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
They know those who play draw go control (which honestly is the control you are talking about)
No, that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about players that like to use blue counter spells in their decks as a means of stalling their opponent long enough to get their opponent's life to zero before their opponent does the same to them. I am not talking about draw-go, in the traditional sense, or even the oppressive spirit of it. I am talking about being able to build a deck that can consistently counter their opponent's biggest threats (if luck and skill are on their side) without having to take up redundant and dead slots with counters that only surgically target. I am not talking about "No" decks, I am talking about "not this time" decks that win when their pilot knows what to counter and when because he cannot just counter everything.
When I say counter magic, I have never meant draw-go, and I have told you this MANY times, so please stop trying to belittle my points by lumping me in with a small group of players who cannot move on from 1995.
QFT. Jace really has an elephant in the room complex going for it. People forget there's no SFM mystic, Hawk's and Swords to protect him as well in Modern and a lot of times he would be dead in the hand and equally dead on the board.
$75? Try $100 (at least at first)
Newsflash... there are a lot of good decks that can be played with jace in it WITHOUT hawks, mystics, and swords.
Instead of trying hawks, mystics and swords, try Vedalken Shackles, that way your opponent can never attack into it. Or just play other stuff like Lingering souls if you wanna spike it up.
As for the whole "it sucks vs. storm decks" that I constantly see on here.. well.... anything that isn't a counterspell, or discard spell sucks vs. storm decks.
The only matchup where I don't see Jace being a de-facto all-star top of the curve-card is against Tron, only because Tron decks wreck control strategies without any land disruption.
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No, that is not what I am talking about. I am talking about players that like to use blue counter spells in their decks as a means of stalling their opponent long enough to get their opponent's life to zero before their opponent does the same to them. I am not talking about draw-go, in the traditional sense, or even the oppressive spirit of it. I am talking about being able to build a deck that can consistently counter their opponent's biggest threats (if luck and skill are on their side) without having to take up redundant and dead slots with counters that only surgically target. I am not talking about "No" decks, I am talking about "not this time" decks that win when their pilot knows what to counter and when because he cannot just counter everything.
When I say counter magic, I have never meant draw-go, and I have told you this MANY times, so please stop trying to belittle my points by lumping me in with a small group of players who cannot move on from 1995.
In that case, you shouldnt have a problem. There are plenty of counters in Standard and Modern.
Or they could do far better and people would actually want to play this format all around the country rather than in the few areas where it is popular as opposed to the many areas where people would rather play limited.
Cant chance losing what they have now. All they can do is hope reprints help the format. If they go away from their original mission statement for the format, how many playing now would actually stick around?
As for formats being hot at different times in different part of the country, its been going on like that for a couple years now that I have noticed. Probably longer. Last summer EDH was hot by me, this year its Modern. Legacy was a couple years ago. There just isnt enough money and time to play all formats all the time.
In that case, you shouldnt have a problem. There are plenty of counters in Standard and Modern.
Cant chance losing what they have now. All they can do is hope reprints help the format. If they go away from their original mission statement for the format, how many playing now would actually stick around?
As for formats being hot at different times in different part of the country, its been going on like that for a couple years now that I have noticed. Probably longer. Last summer EDH was hot by me, this year its Modern. Legacy was a couple years ago. There just isnt enough money and time to play all formats all the time.
True story, so why in the blue hell would anyone who is unhappy with the current state of modern play modern?! Sigh.
I love all things MTG. I play all formats except for Vintage. Even the crappy casual ones like Pauper and I honestly enjoy this format the least. My playgroup and I can't even put together modern decks without Goyf, Bob, Delver, Bolt or Tiago and feel like we have any chance of doing anything that is enjoyable. There is nothing fun about playing with Garruk's Companion or stupid combo denial decks like Gargageddon.
Obviously the solution isn't to unban more powerful staples, okay, that's logical and makes perfect sense. So what can WotC do for people like me who need variety but not without the cost of playing stupid as hell decks that barely pass as tier 2?
I'm just really unhappy with it. I should probably ignore it's existence like the rest of my state and apparently most everyone else in the country.
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
In that case, you shouldnt have a problem. There are plenty of counters in Standard and Modern.
It is the future that is in doubt (as it always is) due to some comments made by Zac Hill. Standard has plenty right now, and frankly I don't even play Standard all that often, but I was using it as an example of where they are willing to alienate long time players in order to attract new ones.
True story, so why in the blue hell would anyone who is unhappy with the current state of modern play modern?! Sigh.
I love all things MTG. I play all formats except for Vintage. Even the crappy casual ones like Pauper and I honestly enjoy this format the least. My playgroup and I can't even put together modern decks without Goyf, Bob, Delver, Bolt or Tiago and feel like we have any chance of doing anything that is enjoyable. There is nothing fun about playing with Garruk's Companion or stupid combo denial decks like Gargageddon.
Obviously the solution isn't to unban more powerful staples, okay, that's logical and makes perfect sense. So what can WotC do for people like me who need variety but not without the cost of playing stupid as hell decks that barely pass as tier 2?
I'm just really unhappy with it. I should probably ignore it's existence like the rest of my state and apparently most everyone else in the country.
Thats fine, then why post in a forum of a format you dont play in? You seem to be pretty vocal about a format you dont play.
It has been pointed out the format is quite diverse. Just because you cant get past the 4 decks you seem hooked on isnt anyones problem but you and your play group.
By the way, I have no problem with them banning more cards in the format. I still think the power level is a bit too high for what its worth. If there is a card or group of cards oppressing the format, ban them.
It is the future that is in doubt (as it always is) due to some comments made by Zac Hill. Standard has plenty right now, and frankly I don't even play Standard all that often, but I was using it as an example of where they are willing to alienate long time players in order to attract new ones.
Actions speak louder then words. Until they stop printing counter spells its just words. People have been talking about how counter magic has been dying for years, yet every set/block has its fair share of counters.
Sometimes I think Wotc asks those guys to write articles to get some type of response from the player base. If not, everyone is allowed their own opinions, we dont have to agree with them.
All I want to say is: if Modern is as popular and as awesome as some people in this thread seem to think, then why are they finding it difficult to get enough players to play it?
The answer should be pretty obvious.
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Broken, mistake of a card is broken, mistake of a card. Its not what any format needs let alone a new format trying to balance itself out.
Honestabe and Torm come off (to me) as players who want Legacy type power in Modern without the cards to keep that power in check. They enjoy the turn 0-2 wins that their opponent cant do anything about. I am not saying there is anything wrong with being that type of a player or even wanting that in the format as long as they dont get it. Same can be said for players like me who enjoy a more balanced, slower format where more cards in the pool can be used. As long as Wotc keeps all parties involved wanting more, the format should be good.
I'd also really like to see the control deck that wins on turn 2. It's not like modern has Show and Tell >_>
Also, y'know, like it or not; Modern is flawed enough to enough people to the point where all you see on these boards are people talking about how their locals can't get enough people. This isn't about price barrier, a lot of players already had a lot of these cards (Like myself) just form playing from Rav - onwards. So it's clearly lacking something. Dunno' what, I don't want to just blame the ban list. I hate it but it's reasonable, at least. But there's surely something.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
That's just it though- unbanning Jace has strings attached, and one of those strings is likely ticking off a portion of the populace. Ancestral Vision is likely not going to anger anyone if it comes off the B/R list. Jace, however, would cause a very visceral reaction among a percentage of the playerbase, even if he was perfectly fine in the format. And given that the format is still young and establishing a playerbase (and has some cost issues currently), introducing a $75+ card (Jace would jump) might be more trouble than it's worth for reasons other than strict format balance.
I'm not really supporting the behavior- but he's got a point about the card having a perception problem. I didn't take his comments to be referring to anyone specifically in this thread. (I don't think the people in this thread are the ones that would riot if Jace were unbanned.)
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
QFT. Jace really has an elephant in the room complex going for it. People forget there's no SFM mystic, Hawk's and Swords to protect him as well in Modern and a lot of times he would be dead in the hand and equally dead on the board.
$75? Try $100 (at least at first)
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
I honestly don't understand it. It must be a regional thing. A few posters in this section really seem to love Modern with an undying passion so you think there would be more people like them. That's why I don't get this outlook where if you don't like the ban list you must like only broken cards and that labels you as the minority.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
You could be right. They better get those reprints going ASAP then. Looking at Legacy and then comparing it to modern is not only unfair it's unrealistic. Still trying to get people that are investing heavily into Legacy and Standard to spend money on Modern is asking way too much at the current cost of entry.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Additionally, one of the most popular formats locally is EDH, and as a result many folks have some of the more expensive Modern staples, and since most people have several decks at once they have the staples in multiples.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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Its part of a new format. The same thing happened with Legacy when it was first introduced for almost 2 years. It was only played during PTQ season and disappeared in the off times. Same thing happened in OE.
It seems from reading these boards different formats are popular in different parts of the country at different times. EDH use to be huge here about a year ago. There were leagues and weekly 4-5 man tournies for EDH at almost every shop. This year they cant get more then 2 or 3 guys to come out for and EDH league. This year Modern is the flavor of choice. I expected once PTQ season ended, so would the popularity of MOdern, but last weekend one of the shops held a tourny and had over 40 show up. The week before that another shop had a SCG qualifier and ran a Modern side event that had almost 70 in it. The same shop has a decent Legacy crowd (Legacy tournies always pop with more then 8) and a small but loyal Vintage group.
Wotc cant afford to alienate those who are playing now in the hope to draw others. Maybe Modern will die a slow death too. Who knows. Got to give them credit for trying. There is going to come a point they just wont try anymore and players will be left with Standard and limited.
I'm thinking once the top decks in the format start to get a little bit more interesting modern will take off again. Right now everything's just so bland in the format, look at the top 5 (Affinity, Jund, Tron, Twin and storm) they're all just so straight forward.
Here we go again. I still don't know where you get that I want turn 0-2 wins. Show me one place where I said I wanted Modern to be some crazy combo format. If you can turn Jace TMS, Ancestral Vision, Bitterblossom and Green Sun's into turn 0-2 wins, then you got me. However, until then, stop saying that.
If i wanted legacy like power I'd go play Legacy, (currently I'm working on assembling a Legacy deck, albeit slowly); But, i think your opinion is well, good considering some of the posts I made, so I'll waste some time explaining to you why it's wrong =D! The cards that I think are unfairly banned, GSZ, Jace(could go either way, tbh), Bitterblossom, Nacatl, and AV all slow down the game; (except Nacatl, I just think his banning is wrong, I'll get to him later);
Bitterblossom sets up walls vs. Aggro, and Fuels the hyper-Tempo strategy of Faeries, it also provides amazing CA and Fodder for GB based rock/mid-range decks (these decks stood toe to toe with Fae while Goyf was legal, btw), it also provides a great Two drop for B/W tokens. The unbanning of BB would support three archetypes to T1 power; and I DOUBT it would do anything except force Delver to play answers to it MD; (Bant Delver with Pridemages would be my first gut instinct, but that's beside my point).
GSZ adds a level of consistency to the game that is healthy for green decks; in a G1 situation vs. Control, you could GSZ for X=4, and thinking, you won't be getting Teeg, you grab Teeg. It's a card you can be cute with. It does a wonderful job of battling control, and combo due to the toolbox effect it gives your deck; And for Bant it also makes it easier to have a hand that curves out the way you want it to. They banned GSZ because of Zoo (At least, this is what i remember it being, i could of course be wrong, please correct me if i am), but they managed to stifle mid-range decks with the banning.
Ancestral Visions: I don't think it's any secret that control is lacking a decent source of CA that lets them draw cards with CC > 3-4. Certainly the true control decks like Gifts and Teachings could use it to be able to reload (3 turns later, I'd like to point out) against the onslaught that is affinity and Zoo. I mean, if you compare the Card to Snapcaster Mage, which one, in your mind is actually stronger in the format? The dude that let's you kill 3 dudes for 5 mana and 2 cards? Or the dude that let's you get 0-3 answers three entire turns later? I think in a format where the CA monster that Snapcaster is legal in is a fine place for AV; considering in my opinion AV is generally weaker.
Jace, TMS: Well, let's be honest here, he helped wreck a format. But, I think we should look to before that; When he was played in the UW control deck that was full of cards to smash Jund, Jund still had a decent MU against the deck. Not only that but, the other decks in the format also managed against Jace, simply because cards like O'Ring existed; This is a format with very efficient creatures that wouldn't mind at ALL being bounced, and pretty decent permanent removal and a format where Pithing Needle could easily be added to ANY SIDEBOARD. Seriously, it's a great card in LOTS of MUs. I think overall, no deck is really 'afraid' of Jace in the same way that every deck in the Post-Alara Standard was afraid of him; The only decent removal for Jace at that time was Your own Jace. Or playing a Jace B. on T3 before they could set theirs up; That is rather unhealthy, don't you think? That led to his unquestionable dominance, imo.
Wild Nacatl: I think a lot of people would agree with me on this; at least I hope so, man. I think it's rather... dumb to think Nacatl is too strong in a format where Delver exists; I will grant you this, Nacatl (with the aid of Fetches, of course) is more 'consistently' a 3/3 and the later versions also happen to be 3/3, but Delver, of course, can start a 3/2 Flier clock on T2; that's pretty good, eh? In a format with the efficiency of Lightning Bolt, Path to Exile, and Smother, you'd think a card like Nacatl would be fair; at least, that's my opinion. You can argue against it, if you'd like. But right now Zoo has Vexing Devil; He's nearly as good as Nacatl, you could make a case of him being strictly better or worse, but that's no the point, he fills the same position (admirably, imo) and puts up a good amount of pressure, and with him the deck isn't crushing the format; it certainly came to be a archetype to test against, but it is by no means the terror it was in the 12-post days; but hey, the format changed (for the better), so what do you expect? And I mean, if all those sweet control cards get unbanned, Zoo will need him back
So, if you look at the cards I'd lobby for, you'll see that they aren't "Legacy Power", they're "Past Standard and Past Extended Power" - So please, don't call me a "Legacy Lite Monger", think of me as the "Heir to the Past Standard and Extended Eternal Format Monger". Because, honestly, some of the cards that are indeed Legal in the format are just as powerful if not MORE powerful and format warping then the cards I'd like to see OFF the list.
I, like you, want a slower more skill intensive format, I just view getting there in a different way, my friend. Because, currently I do not believe we're there. Just look at 4 of the major decks in the format, Affinity, RG Tron, Twin, and Storm.
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All of the "top 5" have glaring holes in their game plan. So much so, that if one of them is trending up enough so people play it en masse (think RG Tron when it was discovered), then one can metagame a tournament with a tier 1.5 or 2 stretegy (of which there are plenty) and take down a whole tournament. Storm won PTQs after RG tron became a deck, solely because it can t4 pretty consistently even through 1 Karn activation...
I like this aspect of this format. That the deck that is en vogue can be meta-hated out.
That is unique to this format.
Affinity- loses to well timed ancient grudges
Tron - loses to quick aggression and land and/or hand disruption
Twin- Loses to 2 Soul Warden Effects, Tempo, or Combust
Jund- Loses to chained Wurmcoil Engines or a quick undisrupted combo (storm or twin)
Storm- Loses to itself, Spell Snare, Relic etc....(this deck is really not tier 1 but a glass cannon, IMO)...
do these plans work 100% of the time. Well, no. It's called "variance" and "drawing good"...
I don't understand the continued ban list
Nothing that anyone posts here is even going to be in the consideration of the B&R committee. They may come and look, see the bad (see fallacious and/or biased) and insulting arguments, and then still make a decision based on their own "findings"...
And those that are arguing JTMS needs to come off, don't get your hopes up...Probably not happening. Like, ever.
I don't care where JTMS is. Unban the whole list for all I care, but I am just saying; don't hold your breath. not.happening.ever.
I blame blandness on the people being scared to create a deck and go through the process of tuning it. Of course it'll stagnate if a lot of players just play what is in the established section. I don't have anything against net-deckers, but one of the stores that I went to was birthing pod central.
Modern has a big card pool, and the format is slow enough to try things. I feel like laziness hurts the format more than anything, in my city at least.
Sadly there isn't anything we can do about it.
Just so it's clear, if Jace got unbanned I wouldn't really care. I'd sadface a bit, but such is the game and we adapt. HOWEVER, while you do bring up a good point, I'd like point out that a lot of the pre-emptive answers (the ones i've bolded) can also be used BY decks running Jace which would make it a lot more vicious to play against.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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They have a proven commodity in Standard. They know roughly the amount of control players, combo players, aggro players and all combinations of those. They know those who play draw go control (which honestly is the control you are talking about) is a small portion of players. They know what happens when control dominates Standard, attendance falls off sharply. ( I am by no means saying they need to get rid of draw go control in Standard)
In Modern, they have no guarantees of who would play if they shifted the meta. They could be far worse off by shifting.
Or they could do far better and people would actually want to play this format all around the country rather than in the few areas where it is popular as opposed to the many areas where people would rather play limited.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
When I say counter magic, I have never meant draw-go, and I have told you this MANY times, so please stop trying to belittle my points by lumping me in with a small group of players who cannot move on from 1995.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
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PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Newsflash... there are a lot of good decks that can be played with jace in it WITHOUT hawks, mystics, and swords.
Instead of trying hawks, mystics and swords, try Vedalken Shackles, that way your opponent can never attack into it. Or just play other stuff like Lingering souls if you wanna spike it up.
As for the whole "it sucks vs. storm decks" that I constantly see on here.. well.... anything that isn't a counterspell, or discard spell sucks vs. storm decks.
The only matchup where I don't see Jace being a de-facto all-star top of the curve-card is against Tron, only because Tron decks wreck control strategies without any land disruption.
In that case, you shouldnt have a problem. There are plenty of counters in Standard and Modern.
Cant chance losing what they have now. All they can do is hope reprints help the format. If they go away from their original mission statement for the format, how many playing now would actually stick around?
As for formats being hot at different times in different part of the country, its been going on like that for a couple years now that I have noticed. Probably longer. Last summer EDH was hot by me, this year its Modern. Legacy was a couple years ago. There just isnt enough money and time to play all formats all the time.
True story, so why in the blue hell would anyone who is unhappy with the current state of modern play modern?! Sigh.
I love all things MTG. I play all formats except for Vintage. Even the crappy casual ones like Pauper and I honestly enjoy this format the least. My playgroup and I can't even put together modern decks without Goyf, Bob, Delver, Bolt or Tiago and feel like we have any chance of doing anything that is enjoyable. There is nothing fun about playing with Garruk's Companion or stupid combo denial decks like Gargageddon.
Obviously the solution isn't to unban more powerful staples, okay, that's logical and makes perfect sense. So what can WotC do for people like me who need variety but not without the cost of playing stupid as hell decks that barely pass as tier 2?
I'm just really unhappy with it. I should probably ignore it's existence like the rest of my state and apparently most everyone else in the country.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Thats fine, then why post in a forum of a format you dont play in? You seem to be pretty vocal about a format you dont play.
It has been pointed out the format is quite diverse. Just because you cant get past the 4 decks you seem hooked on isnt anyones problem but you and your play group.
By the way, I have no problem with them banning more cards in the format. I still think the power level is a bit too high for what its worth. If there is a card or group of cards oppressing the format, ban them.
Actions speak louder then words. Until they stop printing counter spells its just words. People have been talking about how counter magic has been dying for years, yet every set/block has its fair share of counters.
Sometimes I think Wotc asks those guys to write articles to get some type of response from the player base. If not, everyone is allowed their own opinions, we dont have to agree with them.
The answer should be pretty obvious.