speaking of which, when is the next round of bannings/unbannings? i hope they realize how unhealthy cavern of souls is and ban it in legacy and modern. but that's me dreaming. haha.
There are ways to deal with it in both Modern and Legacy. it will not be banned.
And far as the next update, I'm not sure. September? It might be sooner but I'm unsure.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Next update is in June, I don't see Cavern of Souls being banned in either format since tribal decks are already struggling in both and could use a leg up.
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On Mono Black in Commander:
Quote from BlackJack68 »
But whomever your commander is, Cabal Coffers is really in charge.
I could be wrong here but one of the major allures to eternal formats as opposed to standard is the obvious amount of powerful and broken interactions. If I wanted to play something with a low power level I would play limited.
That ban list scared off a lot of people who would have invested time and money into this game. I don't think it didn't any good attracting any. All it did was make super obvious to me what the most powerful decks were going to be, as opposed to having something like;
Faeries
Caw-Blade
Affinity
Storm
Twin
Tron
ThopterBalance
Zoo
Living End
Hypergenesis
Infect combo's
etc
etc
etc
Then to me all I saw (And proved to be mostly true)
Zoo
Affinity
Jund
Twin
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
To me it's no better than it was before. Time wil ltell as to what the next broken deck to bash Modern in the face will be but it's a good time all the doomsayer's have WotC on their side.
The fact you think hyper would be good for the format shows me what you want out of the format, and I do are 2 different things. I like the fact Wotc is trying to make an eternal format that is different from the other 2 they already have because not everyone likes playing at the power level (read brokenness) of Vintage or Legacy.
There are many more decks then the 4 you mentioned, Modern is really diverse. The format is only a year old, it took longer then that for Legacy to flesh out.
I think you might be surprised how many are good with the powered down eternal format, all formats are not created equal!
By the way, I think they have done a great job of balancing the format so quick. You have to remember they cant allow certain cards run rough shot over the format when there is no real answers to them in the format. Wotc cant allow fast turn 1 or 2 combo into the format, because we have no cards that can combat that. The format would devolve into who could go off the soonest. Die roll Magic SUCKS! People keep saying they want to put more skill into the format, yet complain about the lack of luck based decks. Ironic huh?
The fact you think hyper would be good for the format shows me what you want out of the format, and I do are 2 different things. I like the fact Wotc is trying to make an eternal format that is different from the other 2 they already have because not everyone likes playing at the power level (read brokenness) of Vintage or Legacy.
There are many more decks then the 4 you mentioned, Modern is really diverse. The format is only a year old, it took longer then that for Legacy to flesh out.
I think you might be surprised how many are good with the powered down eternal format, all formats are not created equal!
By the way, I think they have done a great job of balancing the format so quick. You have to remember they cant allow certain cards run rough shot over the format when there is no real answers to them in the format. Wotc cant allow fast turn 1 or 2 combo into the format, because we have no cards that can combat that. The format would devolve into who could go off the soonest. Die roll Magic SUCKS! People keep saying they want to put more skill into the format, yet complain about the lack of luck based decks. Ironic huh?
If you've read some of my posts in other threads you'd know Hypergenesis was on my list of cards that should be banned right out. I was just making a list of the viable decks coming into modern.
WotC has done a good job at balancing the format I just think they could let a lot more go and still keep relatively the same balance. I haven't been playing modern very much and my meta is mostly tier 2 decks and I've been able to see the creativity that comes with this format. However, there's a certain power level I wish modern had shared equally through out all the aspects of the game.
I don't like dice roll magic, either. That's what Magic is like when there is ridiculously fast and powerful Combo decks and you don't have a ban list or force of will on your side.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I could be wrong here but one of the major allures to eternal formats as opposed to standard is the obvious amount of powerful and broken interactions. If I wanted to play something with a low power level I would play limited.
That ban list scared off a lot of people who would have invested time and money into this game. I don't think it didn't any good attracting any. All it did was make super obvious to me what the most powerful decks were going to be, as opposed to having something like;
Faeries
Caw-Blade
Affinity
Storm
Twin
Tron
ThopterBalance
Zoo
Living End
Hypergenesis
Infect combo's
etc
etc
etc
Then to me all I saw (And proved to be mostly true)
Zoo
Affinity
Jund
Twin
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
To me it's no better than it was before. Time wil ltell as to what the next broken deck to bash Modern in the face will be but it's a good time all the doomsayer's have WotC on their side.
Have you even tried playing the format? There is still a ton of power in the format, the only difference is that the format doesn't come down to mulling into opening hand answers to a turn 2/3 combo deck.
In formats where combo decks can win turn 2/3, there needs to be cards like force of will to balance things out. In current modern, that just doesn't exist, and the format ends up coming down to having hate in your opening hand against said combo deck, or being able to combo out quicker in a combo mirror. I appreciate combo decks, but a format like this is NOT fun. Having to mulligan into hate constantly to beat hypergenesis, combo elves, thopter depths, affinity (all decks that require some level of hate to beat), Dredge, or any of the other ridiculous combo decks is not fun, interactive or even skill intensive in any way.
No control deck could hope to hate out all the 10-11 very powerful combo decks in one fell swoop, and even when they were able to "hate" them out, they would just lose to affinity, zoo, or a combo deck designed to beat control decks. Even worse, you start getting insane combo decks that combo out in two different ways (Scapeshift/Splintertwin, Thopter/Depths, etc)
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Find me online - I'm on Cockatrice * Tag - Badd B - Or on MTGO - Tag - Cbus05
Have you even tried playing the format? There is still a ton of power in the format, the only difference is that the format doesn't come down to mulling into opening hand answers to a turn 2/3 combo deck.
In formats where combo decks can win turn 2/3, there needs to be cards like force of will to balance things out. In current modern, that just doesn't exist, and the format ends up coming down to having hate in your opening hand against said combo deck, or being able to combo out quicker in a combo mirror. I appreciate combo decks, but a format like this is NOT fun. Having to mulligan into hate constantly to beat hypergenesis, combo elves, thopter depths, affinity (all decks that require some level of hate to beat), Dredge, or any of the other ridiculous combo decks is not fun, interactive or even skill intensive in any way.
No control deck could hope to hate out all the 10-11 very powerful combo decks in one fell swoop, and even when they were able to "hate" them out, they would just lose to affinity, zoo, or a combo deck designed to beat control decks. Even worse, you start getting insane combo decks that combo out in two different ways (Scapeshift/Splintertwin, Thopter/Depths, etc)
What turn 2/3 combo decks do Ancestral Vision, Green Sun's Zenith, Bitterblossom, Wild Nacatl, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Thopter Foundry, Valakut, and Jitte go in?
I understand that we probably can't have all these in the format at the same time, but there's no reason for at least a few of these to be on the banned list. I'd love if they'd rotate cards on and off the banned list every 3 months to satisfy players. For instance, for the next 3 months, AV comes off, 3 months later, Nacatl comes off, 3 months later, Vision goes back on, and Bitterblossom comes off. 3 Months later, Nacatl goes back on, and Jitte comes off...
Something like that, just to keep people from *****ing, and keep the format interesting during the off-season.
What turn 2/3 combo decks do Ancestral Vision, Green Sun's Zenith, Bitterblossom, Wild Nacatl, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Thopter Foundry, Valakut, and Jitte go in?
I understand that we probably can't have all these in the format at the same time, but there's no reason for at least a few of these to be on the banned list. I'd love if they'd rotate cards on and off the banned list every 3 months to satisfy players. For instance, for the next 3 months, AV comes off, 3 months later, Nacatl comes off, 3 months later, Vision goes back on, and Bitterblossom comes off. 3 Months later, Nacatl goes back on, and Jitte comes off...
Something like that, just to keep people from *****ing, and keep the format interesting during the off-season.
I wasn't talking about zenith blossom, nacatl, jace, foundry or jitte, but rather the turn 2/3 combo decks I mentioned in my post.
That being said, just because a card doesn't technically win you the game the turn it resolves doesn't mean it doesn't result in said victory 2-3 turns later. A resolved Stoneforge Mystic into an untap is GG for just about any modern aggro deck, and even if they can burn off mystic, they're still wasting resources and have a batterskull coming down 2-3 turns later while trying to fight through removal and counters. Same can be said about bitterblossom. If people are complaining about control not being viable in modern, the last card they should want unbanned is bitterblossom, as it's virtually impossible for a control deck to beat a resolved t2 blossom (okay, maybe a slight exaggeration, but the odds of control winning after a resolved blossom hits is incredibly low).
Personally, I wouldn't mind thopters, Valakut, Vision, and perhaps Preordain/Ponder from coming off the ban list. But when you want all the power in the format to be unbanned just because it's powerful is silly. There are already tons of powerful plays in modern. Gifts + Unburial rites is incredibly powerful. Turn 3 Karn in RG tron is insanely powerful. Seismic Assault + Loam is VERY difficult for any creature-based deck to play against, and is tough on control as well. It's just about as good a finisher as thopter+sword is in any control deck if they can make the manabase work (although apparently nobody wants to try this for some reason). Don't blame the format for the fact that you only see banned cards as being the powerful plays you can make. If people like this were to research the format more, attempt building decks that aren't just carbon copies of standard decks, and maybe just played instead of whine about not being able to cheese auto-win off skill-less cards (cough hypergenesis) then perhaps they would actually enjoy the format more. And for what it's worth, Hypergenesis is about as boring of a deck as has ever existed, it makes living end and burn look incredibly non-linear by comparison.
And in terms of the "t2" wins, was more talking about cards like Dark Depths, Glimpse of Nature, and company should not come off the ban list like Infallible thinks they should.
And I know a lot of ppl who prob disagree, but Green Sun's Zenith absolutely should stay on the ban list. I LOVE GSZ personally, but it offers way too much consistency, way too easy answers, and just a ton of power overall for any green based midrange or aggro deck. Being able to scale down to 4x Noble Hierarch and 4x Green sun's zenith is incredibly powerful for a deck like Bant, because otherwise, they would need to play 4x birds of paradise to get the same volume of turn 1 mana acceleration. Birds are nice, but being able to ditch birds for GSZ is so much more powerful it's not even funny.
Then to me all I saw (And proved to be mostly true)
Zoo
Affinity
Jund
Twin
zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz
Its quotes like this that demonstrate a large lack of understanding of the format. Are these decks in Modern? Yes, of course they are, but not mentioning Storm Combo, Tron, Delver, Mono Blue Faeries, Caw Control, UW Gifts Tron, Melira Pod, Aggro Loam, Bant, or any other of the many developing new decks in the format is just silly, especially considering most of these decks would get pushed out of the format if we were to unban most of the power in modern.
Cavern of souls will see no (relevant) play in Modern for the moment at the very least IMO. Talking about banning it is just stupid.
I think it will be relevent in a utility way, in that you may have to plan to deal with it when tweaking a deck (much the same way Aether Vial is), but by no means will it be worth banning by any sane person.
Cavern of Souls certainly isn't going to make a splash in standard (yet at least) so it's arguable that they created the card specifically for Modern and Legacy (though I think it's only going to make a serious difference in viability for Legacy, not Modern).. So why would they ban it? That's the most ridiculous thing suggested yet in this thread.
I wasn't talking about zenith blossom, nacatl, jace, foundry or jitte, but rather the turn 2/3 combo decks I mentioned in my post.
That being said, just because a card doesn't technically win you the game the turn it resolves doesn't mean it doesn't result in said victory 2-3 turns later. A resolved Stoneforge Mystic into an untap is GG for just about any modern aggro deck, and even if they can burn off mystic, they're still wasting resources and have a batterskull coming down 2-3 turns later while trying to fight through removal and counters. Same can be said about bitterblossom. If people are complaining about control not being viable in modern, the last card they should want unbanned is bitterblossom, as it's virtually impossible for a control deck to beat a resolved t2 blossom (okay, maybe a slight exaggeration, but the odds of control winning after a resolved blossom hits is incredibly low).
Personally, I wouldn't mind thopters, Valakut, Vision, and perhaps Preordain/Ponder from coming off the ban list. But when you want all the power in the format to be unbanned just because it's powerful is silly. There are already tons of powerful plays in modern. Gifts + Unburial rites is incredibly powerful. Turn 3 Karn in RG tron is insanely powerful. Seismic Assault + Loam is VERY difficult for any creature-based deck to play against, and is tough on control as well. It's just about as good a finisher as thopter+sword is in any control deck if they can make the manabase work (although apparently nobody wants to try this for some reason). Don't blame the format for the fact that you only see banned cards as being the powerful plays you can make. If people like this were to research the format more, attempt building decks that aren't just carbon copies of standard decks, and maybe just played instead of whine about not being able to cheese auto-win off skill-less cards (cough hypergenesis) then perhaps they would actually enjoy the format more. And for what it's worth, Hypergenesis is about as boring of a deck as has ever existed, it makes living end and burn look incredibly non-linear by comparison.
And in terms of the "t2" wins, was more talking about cards like Dark Depths, Glimpse of Nature, and company should not come off the ban list like Infallible thinks they should.
And I know a lot of ppl who prob disagree, but Green Sun's Zenith absolutely should stay on the ban list. I LOVE GSZ personally, but it offers way too much consistency, way too easy answers, and just a ton of power overall for any green based midrange or aggro deck. Being able to scale down to 4x Noble Hierarch and 4x Green sun's zenith is incredibly powerful for a deck like Bant, because otherwise, they would need to play 4x birds of paradise to get the same volume of turn 1 mana acceleration. Birds are nice, but being able to ditch birds for GSZ is so much more powerful it's not even funny.
Its quotes like this that demonstrate a large lack of understanding of the format. Are these decks in Modern? Yes, of course they are, but not mentioning Storm Combo, Tron, Delver, Mono Blue Faeries, Caw Control, UW Gifts Tron, Melira Pod, Aggro Loam, Bant, or any other of the many developing new decks in the format is just silly, especially considering most of these decks would get pushed out of the format if we were to unban most of the power in modern.
Please don't twist my words around and then go as far as to put them into my mouth. I wouldn't do that to you.
I never said it would have been a good format if they let all the decks I mentioned above be legal at same time. It would be a horrible, chaotic, dice roll format because unlike Legacy there aren't enough tools to deal with them. I was making an observation of what the format would have looked like if they didn't preemptively ban certain cards. No one wanted to play against something like Cascade-Hypergenesis. I never said Glimpse should come off. Anyone who thinks it should has never played against Legacy Elves. While in Modern it wouldn't be as powerful it would still be incredibly degenerate.
I would never opt for powerful combo cards to come off in a format where they've done well to balance combo out. I just think they've banned too many cards without even letting them have a chance to 'destroy' the format.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Please don't twist my words around and then go as far as to put them into my mouth. I wouldn't do that to you.
I never said it would have been a good format if they let all the decks I mentioned above be legal at same time. It would be a horrible, chaotic, dice roll format because unlike Legacy there aren't enough tools to deal with them. I was making an observation of what the format would have looked like if they didn't preemptively ban certain cards. No one wanted to play against something like Cascade-Hypergenesis. I never said Glimpse should come off. Anyone who thinks it should has never played against Legacy Elves. While in Modern it wouldn't be as powerful it would still be incredibly degenerate.
I would never opt for powerful combo cards to come off in a format where they've done well to balance combo out. I just think they've banned too many cards without even letting them have a chance to 'destroy' the format.
Which cards specifically are you referring to? Quantity is an absurd metric to use to judge a ban list. It's the format resulting from it that matters.
Which cards specifically are you referring to? Quantity is an absurd metric to use to judge a ban list. It's the format resulting from it that matters.
I discussed a few pages back why I think those three cards aren't deserving of being on the ban list, especially AV. Sword of the Meek can be bad but given what it takes for it to get to the point where the opposing deck just can't win I don't think it deserves to be on there. Some agree, some don't and that's fine. Everybody has their own opinion on what they want Modern to look like. It's not as if the combo is easily put in every deck considering the nature of the combination. I don't feel like arguing that anymore.
Jace and AV have also been discussed to death and I don't feel like discussing or arguing about them anymore, either.
I wonder if GSZ deserves to be on there but I know how much consistency it gives a deck. Aggro doesn't really need a push.
I don't think unbanning any of that would, quote : "Push other decks out of the format". One more deck would emerge and instead a few other decks would get a big push. AV in Delver and Faeries would be great. Jace in Caw-blade and Faeries and Bant would be great. Sword of the Meek in Tron and Gift's would be silly but I'm not certain it would make the entire format fold beneath it's power.
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
I discussed a few pages back why I think those three cards aren't deserving of being on the ban list, especially AV. Sword of the Meek can be bad but given what it takes for it to get to the point where the opposing deck just can't win I don't think it deserves to be on there. Some agree, some don't and that's fine. Everybody has their own opinion on what they want Modern to look like. It's not as if the combo is easily put in every deck considering the nature of the combination. I don't feel like arguing that anymore.
Jace and AV have also been discussed to death and I don't feel like discussing or arguing about them anymore, either.
I wonder if GSZ deserves to be on there but I know how much consistency it gives a deck. Aggro doesn't really need a push.
I don't think unbanning any of that would, quote : "Push other decks out of the format". One more deck would emerge and instead a few other decks would get a big push. AV in Delver and Faeries would be great. Jace in Caw-blade and Faeries and Bant would be great. Sword of the Meek in Tron and Gift's would be silly but I'm not certain it would make the entire format fold beneath it's power.
They all would raise the power level of the format. Jace 2.0 especially. If you dont understand that brainstorming for 0 is uber powerful and thats just 1 thing the card can do. When Wotc admits a card is a mistake, it should be banned in all formats and forgotten about.
Meek and AV would shift the power in the format. I know you dont think so but many do. Meek is a flat out oppressive card, has been since it was broken. Av is free card advantage which we all know wins games, especially for control type decks.
They all would raise the power level of the format. Jace 2.0 especially. If you dont understand that brainstorming for 0 is uber powerful and thats just 1 thing the card can do. When Wotc admits a card is a mistake, it should be banned in all formats and forgotten about.
Meek and AV would shift the power in the format. I know you dont think so but many do. Meek is a flat out oppressive card, has been since it was broken. Av is free card advantage which we all know wins games, especially for control type decks.
It's not Brainstorm for 0. It's Brainstorm for 2UU;).
I'm still not entirely sure about Meek. People have brought up good arguments against it and I've taken that into consideration in my stance, much more so than the arguments for Jace and AV. I'm just unsure there's enough support for it to really be that bad. I completely acknowledge that I could be wrong, however.
I definitely don't feel wrong about JTMS or AV. Not in the slightest bit and feel like both have too many situations in such a fast format where drawing them is just flat out terrible. I tend to think about only top decks when making these assessments since to me they are the only ones that matter. Especially AV since it's about the worst top deck I can think of past turn 4 against any deck that puts on pressure.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
They all would raise the power level of the format. Jace 2.0 especially. If you dont understand that brainstorming for 0 is uber powerful and thats just 1 thing the card can do. When Wotc admits a card is a mistake, it should be banned in all formats and forgotten about.
Meek and AV would shift the power in the format. I know you dont think so but many do. Meek is a flat out oppressive card, has been since it was broken. Av is free card advantage which we all know wins games, especially for control type decks.
The only problem is there is no real control type decks in the format (I guess UW caw is controllish). Visions doesn't seem that ridiculously broken.
The only problem is there is no real control type decks in the format (I guess UW caw is controllish). Visions doesn't seem that ridiculously broken.
Caw is very controlish. It is a control deck and right now, unfortunately, it's the best one that is available. Pretty much everything else viable falls under Tempo (Faeries and Delver)
Control needs love in Modern but you won't find a lot of people on these forums who feel that way.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
They all would raise the power level of the format. Jace 2.0 especially. If you dont understand that brainstorming for 0 is uber powerful and thats just 1 thing the card can do. When Wotc admits a card is a mistake, it should be banned in all formats and forgotten about.
Meek and AV would shift the power in the format. I know you dont think so but many do. Meek is a flat out oppressive card, has been since it was broken. Av is free card advantage which we all know wins games, especially for control type decks.
Pretty sure none of the aggro decks or Tron worry about Jace or Meek.
Do you have some actual test results to back this up with? Because I have a rather hard time believing it, considering that tempo decks usually doesn't like playing stuff that don't do anything before turn 5.
I dunno'. I would definitely at least try it. Giving you that much more of a probability to have an extremely strong turn 1 play in Delver is important.
Though, Faeries is Tempo and it's a fact that Faeries love the card. I also loved it in Fae and would probably love it in Delver.
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
Do you have some actual test results to back this up with? Because I have a rather hard time believing it, considering that tempo decks usually doesn't like playing stuff that don't do anything before turn 5.
I don't need testings, turn 1 AV makes delver win every time.
I don't need testings, turn 1 AV makes delver win every time.
Delver's not the kind of deck (in Modern) that would play it. Delver is tempo-based, and doesn't shift into a control role in many, if any matches. A deck like Faeries is where it would shine. It's definitely the safest card by a mile to unban- this format is very unfriendly to Draw-Go strategies currently, and giving them AV isn't going to fix the problems with them.
Jace might be ok, but Miracles are still a big wild card, and although I was supportive of him coming off the ban list pre-AVR, I'd rather see what happens in the next few months in Legacy before taking him off. (Also, we have Jace 4.0 almost certainly coming in Ravnica, and a "fixed" JTMS is probably not out of the question.)
Sword of the Meek, though, is crazy talk. The Thopter Foundry combo singlehandedly shuts down an aggressive deck while being ridiculously hard to interact with due to Thopter/Sword's ability to react to any attempt to disrupt it. Think Bitterblossom was annoying to deal with? This is even worse.
Delver's not the kind of deck (in Modern) that would play it. Delver is tempo-based, and doesn't shift into a control role in many, if any matches. A deck like Faeries is where it would shine. It's definitely the safest card by a mile to unban- this format is very unfriendly to Draw-Go strategies currently, and giving them AV isn't going to fix the problems with them.
Jace might be ok, but Miracles are still a big wild card, and although I was supportive of him coming off the ban list pre-AVR, I'd rather see what happens in the next few months in Legacy before taking him off. (Also, we have Jace 4.0 almost certainly coming in Ravnica, and a "fixed" JTMS is probably not out of the question.)
Sword of the Meek, though, is crazy talk. The Thopter Foundry combo singlehandedly shuts down an aggressive deck while being ridiculously hard to interact with due to Thopter/Sword's ability to react to any attempt to disrupt it. Think Bitterblossom was annoying to deal with? This is even worse.
Why do you need to see what happens in Legacy over the next few months? In regards to what? Miracles? Miracles aren't testing well for me in Legacy at all. I tested Terminus and Temporal Mastery in both Stoneblade and Tempo Thresh, as well as Thopter Balance and they weren't doing enough.
I didn't believe people when they said it but an extra turn is overrated. What made Time Walk so good is that you can play it whenever you want, not having to draw it at the right time or spend X amount of mana and resources setting up for it. Terminus is just sub par, there's no need to explain why a 6cmc board sweeper that's only good if you draw it in any deck that puts dudes on the board is bad. Jace would not break Miracles because, for the most part, they suck, despite Ryan winning PT Avacyn Restored with a deck full of them.
You weaken your decks core by adding in otherwise unplayable cards in decks that need every single card to be able to compete. None of them, except for possibly Reforge the Soul will make a splash in Legacy. At least not until they unban Mystical Tutor again. ;x
I think you're over exaggerating thopter sword but you probably have more experience with it than me outside of Legacy. In Legacy unless you have Counter Top going at the same time it's really hard to keep that engine safe, and we have Counter Top banned in Modern. It's also noteworthy to mention that SFM isn't around and I may be under evaluating it's strength because it's awful against Stoneblade and Maverick.
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By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Mhjames: mtgsalvation: I DON'T SEE HOW THIS CARD IS GOOD. I KNOW PATRICK CHAPIN USED IT AND WENT 8-0, BUT THAT WAS A SMALL TOURNAMENT. THE CARD IS TOO SLOW. YOU NEED TO MAKE SURE THE OPPONENT HAS A SPELL IN THE GRAVEYARD
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There are ways to deal with it in both Modern and Legacy. it will not be banned.
And far as the next update, I'm not sure. September? It might be sooner but I'm unsure.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
The fact you think hyper would be good for the format shows me what you want out of the format, and I do are 2 different things. I like the fact Wotc is trying to make an eternal format that is different from the other 2 they already have because not everyone likes playing at the power level (read brokenness) of Vintage or Legacy.
There are many more decks then the 4 you mentioned, Modern is really diverse. The format is only a year old, it took longer then that for Legacy to flesh out.
I think you might be surprised how many are good with the powered down eternal format, all formats are not created equal!
By the way, I think they have done a great job of balancing the format so quick. You have to remember they cant allow certain cards run rough shot over the format when there is no real answers to them in the format. Wotc cant allow fast turn 1 or 2 combo into the format, because we have no cards that can combat that. The format would devolve into who could go off the soonest. Die roll Magic SUCKS! People keep saying they want to put more skill into the format, yet complain about the lack of luck based decks. Ironic huh?
If you've read some of my posts in other threads you'd know Hypergenesis was on my list of cards that should be banned right out. I was just making a list of the viable decks coming into modern.
WotC has done a good job at balancing the format I just think they could let a lot more go and still keep relatively the same balance. I haven't been playing modern very much and my meta is mostly tier 2 decks and I've been able to see the creativity that comes with this format. However, there's a certain power level I wish modern had shared equally through out all the aspects of the game.
I don't like dice roll magic, either. That's what Magic is like when there is ridiculously fast and powerful Combo decks and you don't have a ban list or force of will on your side.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Correct. I don't get how people are just randomly calling for bans of cards that aren't even doing anything in the format....Just plain stupidity
Have you even tried playing the format? There is still a ton of power in the format, the only difference is that the format doesn't come down to mulling into opening hand answers to a turn 2/3 combo deck.
In formats where combo decks can win turn 2/3, there needs to be cards like force of will to balance things out. In current modern, that just doesn't exist, and the format ends up coming down to having hate in your opening hand against said combo deck, or being able to combo out quicker in a combo mirror. I appreciate combo decks, but a format like this is NOT fun. Having to mulligan into hate constantly to beat hypergenesis, combo elves, thopter depths, affinity (all decks that require some level of hate to beat), Dredge, or any of the other ridiculous combo decks is not fun, interactive or even skill intensive in any way.
No control deck could hope to hate out all the 10-11 very powerful combo decks in one fell swoop, and even when they were able to "hate" them out, they would just lose to affinity, zoo, or a combo deck designed to beat control decks. Even worse, you start getting insane combo decks that combo out in two different ways (Scapeshift/Splintertwin, Thopter/Depths, etc)
What turn 2/3 combo decks do Ancestral Vision, Green Sun's Zenith, Bitterblossom, Wild Nacatl, Jace, the Mind Sculptor, Thopter Foundry, Valakut, and Jitte go in?
I understand that we probably can't have all these in the format at the same time, but there's no reason for at least a few of these to be on the banned list. I'd love if they'd rotate cards on and off the banned list every 3 months to satisfy players. For instance, for the next 3 months, AV comes off, 3 months later, Nacatl comes off, 3 months later, Vision goes back on, and Bitterblossom comes off. 3 Months later, Nacatl goes back on, and Jitte comes off...
Something like that, just to keep people from *****ing, and keep the format interesting during the off-season.
I wasn't talking about zenith blossom, nacatl, jace, foundry or jitte, but rather the turn 2/3 combo decks I mentioned in my post.
That being said, just because a card doesn't technically win you the game the turn it resolves doesn't mean it doesn't result in said victory 2-3 turns later. A resolved Stoneforge Mystic into an untap is GG for just about any modern aggro deck, and even if they can burn off mystic, they're still wasting resources and have a batterskull coming down 2-3 turns later while trying to fight through removal and counters. Same can be said about bitterblossom. If people are complaining about control not being viable in modern, the last card they should want unbanned is bitterblossom, as it's virtually impossible for a control deck to beat a resolved t2 blossom (okay, maybe a slight exaggeration, but the odds of control winning after a resolved blossom hits is incredibly low).
Personally, I wouldn't mind thopters, Valakut, Vision, and perhaps Preordain/Ponder from coming off the ban list. But when you want all the power in the format to be unbanned just because it's powerful is silly. There are already tons of powerful plays in modern. Gifts + Unburial rites is incredibly powerful. Turn 3 Karn in RG tron is insanely powerful. Seismic Assault + Loam is VERY difficult for any creature-based deck to play against, and is tough on control as well. It's just about as good a finisher as thopter+sword is in any control deck if they can make the manabase work (although apparently nobody wants to try this for some reason). Don't blame the format for the fact that you only see banned cards as being the powerful plays you can make. If people like this were to research the format more, attempt building decks that aren't just carbon copies of standard decks, and maybe just played instead of whine about not being able to cheese auto-win off skill-less cards (cough hypergenesis) then perhaps they would actually enjoy the format more. And for what it's worth, Hypergenesis is about as boring of a deck as has ever existed, it makes living end and burn look incredibly non-linear by comparison.
And in terms of the "t2" wins, was more talking about cards like Dark Depths, Glimpse of Nature, and company should not come off the ban list like Infallible thinks they should.
And I know a lot of ppl who prob disagree, but Green Sun's Zenith absolutely should stay on the ban list. I LOVE GSZ personally, but it offers way too much consistency, way too easy answers, and just a ton of power overall for any green based midrange or aggro deck. Being able to scale down to 4x Noble Hierarch and 4x Green sun's zenith is incredibly powerful for a deck like Bant, because otherwise, they would need to play 4x birds of paradise to get the same volume of turn 1 mana acceleration. Birds are nice, but being able to ditch birds for GSZ is so much more powerful it's not even funny.
Its quotes like this that demonstrate a large lack of understanding of the format. Are these decks in Modern? Yes, of course they are, but not mentioning Storm Combo, Tron, Delver, Mono Blue Faeries, Caw Control, UW Gifts Tron, Melira Pod, Aggro Loam, Bant, or any other of the many developing new decks in the format is just silly, especially considering most of these decks would get pushed out of the format if we were to unban most of the power in modern.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Draft My Cube!
Please don't twist my words around and then go as far as to put them into my mouth. I wouldn't do that to you.
I never said it would have been a good format if they let all the decks I mentioned above be legal at same time. It would be a horrible, chaotic, dice roll format because unlike Legacy there aren't enough tools to deal with them. I was making an observation of what the format would have looked like if they didn't preemptively ban certain cards. No one wanted to play against something like Cascade-Hypergenesis. I never said Glimpse should come off. Anyone who thinks it should has never played against Legacy Elves. While in Modern it wouldn't be as powerful it would still be incredibly degenerate.
I would never opt for powerful combo cards to come off in a format where they've done well to balance combo out. I just think they've banned too many cards without even letting them have a chance to 'destroy' the format.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Which cards specifically are you referring to? Quantity is an absurd metric to use to judge a ban list. It's the format resulting from it that matters.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
I discussed a few pages back why I think those three cards aren't deserving of being on the ban list, especially AV. Sword of the Meek can be bad but given what it takes for it to get to the point where the opposing deck just can't win I don't think it deserves to be on there. Some agree, some don't and that's fine. Everybody has their own opinion on what they want Modern to look like. It's not as if the combo is easily put in every deck considering the nature of the combination. I don't feel like arguing that anymore.
Jace and AV have also been discussed to death and I don't feel like discussing or arguing about them anymore, either.
I wonder if GSZ deserves to be on there but I know how much consistency it gives a deck. Aggro doesn't really need a push.
I don't think unbanning any of that would, quote : "Push other decks out of the format". One more deck would emerge and instead a few other decks would get a big push. AV in Delver and Faeries would be great. Jace in Caw-blade and Faeries and Bant would be great. Sword of the Meek in Tron and Gift's would be silly but I'm not certain it would make the entire format fold beneath it's power.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
They all would raise the power level of the format. Jace 2.0 especially. If you dont understand that brainstorming for 0 is uber powerful and thats just 1 thing the card can do. When Wotc admits a card is a mistake, it should be banned in all formats and forgotten about.
Meek and AV would shift the power in the format. I know you dont think so but many do. Meek is a flat out oppressive card, has been since it was broken. Av is free card advantage which we all know wins games, especially for control type decks.
It's not Brainstorm for 0. It's Brainstorm for 2UU;).
I'm still not entirely sure about Meek. People have brought up good arguments against it and I've taken that into consideration in my stance, much more so than the arguments for Jace and AV. I'm just unsure there's enough support for it to really be that bad. I completely acknowledge that I could be wrong, however.
I definitely don't feel wrong about JTMS or AV. Not in the slightest bit and feel like both have too many situations in such a fast format where drawing them is just flat out terrible. I tend to think about only top decks when making these assessments since to me they are the only ones that matter. Especially AV since it's about the worst top deck I can think of past turn 4 against any deck that puts on pressure.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
The only problem is there is no real control type decks in the format (I guess UW caw is controllish). Visions doesn't seem that ridiculously broken.
Caw is very controlish. It is a control deck and right now, unfortunately, it's the best one that is available. Pretty much everything else viable falls under Tempo (Faeries and Delver)
Control needs love in Modern but you won't find a lot of people on these forums who feel that way.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
Pretty sure none of the aggro decks or Tron worry about Jace or Meek.
I dunno'. I would definitely at least try it. Giving you that much more of a probability to have an extremely strong turn 1 play in Delver is important.
Though, Faeries is Tempo and it's a fact that Faeries love the card. I also loved it in Fae and would probably love it in Delver.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible
I don't need testings, turn 1 AV makes delver win every time.
Delver's not the kind of deck (in Modern) that would play it. Delver is tempo-based, and doesn't shift into a control role in many, if any matches. A deck like Faeries is where it would shine. It's definitely the safest card by a mile to unban- this format is very unfriendly to Draw-Go strategies currently, and giving them AV isn't going to fix the problems with them.
Jace might be ok, but Miracles are still a big wild card, and although I was supportive of him coming off the ban list pre-AVR, I'd rather see what happens in the next few months in Legacy before taking him off. (Also, we have Jace 4.0 almost certainly coming in Ravnica, and a "fixed" JTMS is probably not out of the question.)
Sword of the Meek, though, is crazy talk. The Thopter Foundry combo singlehandedly shuts down an aggressive deck while being ridiculously hard to interact with due to Thopter/Sword's ability to react to any attempt to disrupt it. Think Bitterblossom was annoying to deal with? This is even worse.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Why do you need to see what happens in Legacy over the next few months? In regards to what? Miracles? Miracles aren't testing well for me in Legacy at all. I tested Terminus and Temporal Mastery in both Stoneblade and Tempo Thresh, as well as Thopter Balance and they weren't doing enough.
I didn't believe people when they said it but an extra turn is overrated. What made Time Walk so good is that you can play it whenever you want, not having to draw it at the right time or spend X amount of mana and resources setting up for it. Terminus is just sub par, there's no need to explain why a 6cmc board sweeper that's only good if you draw it in any deck that puts dudes on the board is bad. Jace would not break Miracles because, for the most part, they suck, despite Ryan winning PT Avacyn Restored with a deck full of them.
You weaken your decks core by adding in otherwise unplayable cards in decks that need every single card to be able to compete. None of them, except for possibly Reforge the Soul will make a splash in Legacy. At least not until they unban Mystical Tutor again. ;x
I think you're over exaggerating thopter sword but you probably have more experience with it than me outside of Legacy. In Legacy unless you have Counter Top going at the same time it's really hard to keep that engine safe, and we have Counter Top banned in Modern. It's also noteworthy to mention that SFM isn't around and I may be under evaluating it's strength because it's awful against Stoneblade and Maverick.
By: ol MISAKA lo
Cockatrice: Infallible