I made a request for seperate threads with separate stipulations. Like in the "complain" thread, you kind of have to tacitly agree that the state of the format "sucks" or whatever. I will even moderate the "discussion" thread voluntarily if the mods don't want to.
if we had a positive ban thread no one would post on it because wotc has yet to do any thing positive.
For the 3 people that feel all they do is bad, many more feel they are doing it right. In the end there will be a format you will either play or complain about.
For the 3 people that feel all they do is bad, many more feel they are doing it right. In the end there will be a format you will either play or complain about.
I think the assertion that they are doing it "right" could be argued. I mean the idea to let the players figure out what needs to be banned is something I can get behind....
but in the end you are right...I just want to play and I like the format now, before the 12/20 bans, and even before Philly....
I just like eternal formats. this one has a good niche to fill...IMO.
My intuition tells me that in the end, modern will be a good format worth playing. They probably will start to unban cards after they see some real info and player feedback from the PTQ's.
My intuition tells me that in the end, modern will be a good format worth playing. They probably will start to unban cards after they see some real info and player feedback from the PTQ's.
As it should have been instead of the 12/20 announcment.
My intuition tells me that in the end, modern will be a good format worth playing. They probably will start to unban cards after they see some real info and player feedback from the PTQ's.
I certainly hope this is the case. I love the card pool for this format, I just wish it was a bit more powerful and expansive.
Are you willing to sacrifice power for balance? I know I am. I would much rather have a balanced format then a powerful one.
I would much rather have a powerful, balanced format. I can sacrifice power for balance for a little while, but not for long. If the power doesn't eventually come back, I will likely just get bored. The only reason Standard is able to hold my interest is because of how often the metagame shifts.
Are you willing to sacrifice power for balance? I know I am. I would much rather have a balanced format then a powerful one.
a format can be both powerful and balanced. It is a fallacy that one has to be exchanged for the other. For the most part none of the cards in modern are busted by themselves. We have a few two card combos that are too good like hypergen + any 3cmc cascade spell, and Dark depths + Vampire hexmage. Both of these decks are fast, consistent, persistent, and resistant. These are broken combo decks thus they are banned. Hypergen is the more broken combo because you can run 12 copies of your combo. Dark depths is problematic because it not only can win the game fast, but it can control the board pretty well while tutoring for pieces. Neither deck has really good hate that can be ran for it because they can easily answer most hate if your even fast enough with your hate.
Storm- Storm decks are quite fast, but they are pretty inconsistent and weak to any form of control. Also we have at least 2/3 cards that every color can run as hate from the sideboard. Grapeshot might be too good, but forcing them to run empty the warrens makes storm weak to ghostly prison, engineered explosives, ratchet bomb, even pyroclasm. A strong storm deck that has around a 3.75 magic turn would be a great way to vary the format and weaken the grip that zoo has. Zoo could still win against it, but they would have to get a better draw or use the sideboard. Since sideboards are roughly 57% of all matches this is fair.
Valakut- Scapeshift is the most balanced combo deck of recent times. Yet it is banned because wotc wanted to try to push aggro as much as possible except ZOO>Aggro. Burn decks are a weakness that scapeshift has so if it was a big part of the meta we would see burn decks creeping into more top 8s.
These changes need to happen Immediately, and they would fix the format.
These are the cards that are making zoo powerful enough to keep other aggro decks at bay.....
Not saying that I think these should be banned, but pretty much the only way is to drop the hammer on zoo.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
OR give other aggro decks the tools that allow them to flourish in Legacy.
Print Goblin Lackey/Piledriver/Matron (not all, but maybe 2 of these?)
Give Merfolk some new toy, or make control a little better, thus making merfolk better
Give Chrome mox to decks like Bant and Doran that need them to not be strickly worse than Zoo
Then goblins would be the best deck lol. You can't have legacy goblins in modern lol. Goblins are either almost broke or crappy. No way to really have middle ground.
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I'm down with having an actual discussion thread too. No whining allowed.
Yes, please, please let this happen!
I'm excited about Modern. I read this forum multiple times everyday, but I rarely post here due to the extreme negativity and frequent complaining across multiple threads from 3 certain users: Slipknot, honestabe, DrWorm. It's so bad that Slipknot's finally got the "honor" of being the first and only MTGS user on my ignore list.
A forum free from complaints would be fantastic. Even a single thread would be a tremendous first step.
EDIT: I'm not trying to flame the posters I mentioned. You guys are all certainly entitled to your own opinions. However, those opinions seem to be mostly contrary to what WotC has envisioned for this format. Stating them over and over and over does not seem very helpful at this point, and their repitition is certainly making these forums less enjoyable for me personally.
I'm excited about Modern. I read this forum multiple times everyday, but I rarely post here due to the extreme negativity and useless complaining across multiple threads from 3 certain users: Slipknot, honestabe, DrWorm. It's so bad that Slipknot's finally got the "honor" of being the first and only MTGS user on my ignore list.
A forum free from complaints would be fantastic. Even a single thread would be a tremendous first step.
not like your going to read this anyways but just because we have different opinions of how things are don't mean that we are whining man. Several of use have shown valid proof of what changes would do to the format. Instead of hopping on here and pseudo flaming every post with baseless acusations and meaningless words.
We will see how much banning nactl and punishing fire will change things. Signs and evidence points to almost not at all which is a problem since zoo was around 30% of the meta at worlds and around the same at PT Philly.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
My intuition tells me that in the end, modern will be a good format worth playing. They probably will start to unban cards after they see some real info and player feedback from the PTQ's.
Judging by the way they haven't even mentioned unbannings in any serious sense, and that cards that literally will have no impact if unbanned are still on it (Grave-Troll, much?), I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.
Really, just the fact that Grave-Troll is still on there seals the deal that we're not getting unbannings anytime soon.
Judging by the way they haven't even mentioned unbannings in any serious sense, and that cards that literally will have no impact if unbanned are still on it (Grave-Troll, much?), I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.
Really, just the fact that Grave-Troll is still on there seals the deal that we're not getting unbannings anytime soon.
This was also my impression. I was actually speechless when it wasn't mentioned. I am going to tweet AF and see if I can give him a good wrench minding
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I'm excited about Modern. I read this forum multiple times everyday, but I rarely post here due to the extreme negativity and frequent complaining across multiple threads from 3 certain users: Slipknot, honestabe, DrWorm. It's so bad that Slipknot's finally got the "honor" of being the first and only MTGS user on my ignore list.
A forum free from complaints would be fantastic. Even a single thread would be a tremendous first step.
EDIT: I'm not trying to flame the posters I mentioned. You guys are all certainly entitled to your own opinions. However, those opinions seem to be mostly contrary to what WotC has envisioned for this format. Stating them over and over and over does not seem very helpful at this point, and their repitition is certainly making these forums less enjoyable for me personally.
Completely agree with this 110%. This forum seriously needs a "Complain/*****/moan/whine about Modern here" thread so people can vent there instead of everywhere on the forum. Other forums on the site have similar threads, so why not Modern too?
Completely agree with this 110%. This forum seriously needs a "Complain/*****/moan/whine about Modern here" thread so people can vent there instead of everywhere on the forum. Other forums on the site have similar threads, so why not Modern too?
presenting valid information and opinions of what should be done and what has been done is not complaining. Complaining would be like I hate blue decks because they run counterspells. Or I cant play my plant tribal deck because punishing fire exist and I'm pissed about it.
There is a fine line between complaining and commenting. One is presenting arguments with valid proof. The other is just being a hater.
This would not be a discussion if we didn't have input from both sides of the aisle. I have presented more proof and evidence than most people on the "Pro everything is wonder and this format is awesome because I love zoo" side of the argument.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
presenting valid information and opinions of what should be done and what has been done is not complaining. Complaining would be like I hate blue decks because they run counterspells. Or I cant play my plant tribal deck because punishing fire exist and I'm pissed about it.
There is a fine line between complaining and commenting. One is presenting arguments with valid proof. The other is just being a hater.
This would not be a discussion if we didn't have input from both sides of the aisle. I have presented more proof and evidence than most people on the "Pro everything is wonder and this format is awesome because I love zoo" side of the argument.
Well, sir, this is just as baseless as what you were calling baseless before because I know for a fact that you are not testing and just theory crafting based on data from yore. There are at least 5 people who have responded to you this way, and I have sent an official request for a "complain" thread.
You would be able to get your message across if people didn't find you so overwhelming that they put you on their ignore list.
I am also not trying to flame you, but your opinion is spread over these forums ad infinitum.
I just want people to play nice, but it is hard when you insert your negativity into every thread ever. Some people want to discuss, not sit here and argue how every deck is bad, the cards they have banned are the only good ones, etc etc etc
I probably will post in the complain thread too, I am not 100% happy, but I am only one person and I have a lot of fun with this format on MTGO. More so now because I get real pleasure out of hen-pecking people to death with Squadron Hawks....Thanks P-Fire ban!!!
EDIT: I like you slips. Again, you have solid theory. You are right that Zoo is far and away the best aggro deck in the format. You are absolutely wrong that there is no other deck that competes.
I would much rather have a powerful, balanced format. I can sacrifice power for balance for a little while, but not for long. If the power doesn't eventually come back, I will likely just get bored. The only reason Standard is able to hold my interest is because of how often the metagame shifts.
If you want a powerful format, why so down on Zoo being powerful and dominate? You keep conterdicting yourself. Either you want a powerful format, unbalanced... which we have right now, so there shouldnt be any complaints. Or you want a balanced format which they are working on and are going to have to have patients.
a format can be both powerful and balanced.
I am from Missouri and you are going to have to show me with this card pool thats possible without bannings. I dont believe it can be done. With the cards in the format either combo or aggro will be a bit better and control will always be a bit behind. Simply because Wotc has nuetered control since about Rav block.
It took almost 2 years to balance Legacy with the card pool they had that favored control. I would expect at least that long for Modern, maybe more because they are trying to do something different then Legacy.
Well, sir, this is just as baseless as what you were calling baseless before because I know for a fact that you are not testing and just theory crafting based on data from yore. There are at least 5 people who have responded to you this way, and I have sent an official request for a "complain" thread.
You would be able to get your message across if people didn't find you so overwhelming that they put you on their ignore list.
I am also not trying to flame you, but your opinion is spread over these forums ad infinitum.
I just want people to play nice, but it is hard when you insert your negativity into every thread ever. Some people want to discuss, not sit here and argue how every deck is bad, the cards they have banned are the only good ones, etc etc etc
I probably will post in the complain thread too, I am not 100% happy, but I am only one person and I have a lot of fun with this format on MTGO. More so now because I get real pleasure out of hen-pecking people to death with Squadron Hawks....Thanks P-Fire ban!!!
EDIT: I like you slips. Again, you have solid theory. You are right that Zoo is far and away the best aggro deck in the format. You are absolutely wrong that there is no other deck that competes.
I never said that no other deck competes. I said that it is better than everything else. Magic is set up such that almost any deck can compete with any other deck. That is the good part of the randomness. I have taken standard decks to extended tournaments in the past and won(partially because the people at this store were rather ****ty....ok well mostly because the people were ****ty and I got a little lucky)
People take everything I say literally when it is not meant that way. I prevent things how I see them in a very analytical and logical sense. It is sort of like different words mean different things to people. When most people say the word viable they mean you can build it and play it. Viable means good to me. Good means able to have a decent win % against the best decks in the field without having a super negative % against too many decks.(something like 40/60 is what I considered super bad)
Part of this is my ultra-competitive nature which I can't really change. I say sorry in advance for being overly spike(ish). I know I come off as a jerk and its not intended. It is quite hard for me to represent tone in written language because I am not the worlds best writer. Most of you would probably find me quite funny IRL when tone of voice and stuff makes the things I say less doom and gloom.
Several of us have a new thread going for jund, and we could always use more help trying to figure it out without punishing fire. This was the biggest change from the bans. I don't even think that point is arguable.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I never said that no other deck competes. I said that it is better than everything else. Magic is set up such that almost any deck can compete with any other deck. That is the good part of the randomness. I have taken standard decks to extended tournaments in the past and won(partially because the people at this store were rather ****ty....ok well mostly because the people were ****ty and I got a little lucky)
People take everything I say literally when it is not meant that way. I prevent things how I see them in a very analytical and logical sense. It is sort of like different words mean different things to people. When most people say the word viable they mean you can build it and play it. Viable means good to me. Good means able to have a decent win % against the best decks in the field without having a super negative % against too many decks.(something like 40/60 is what I considered super bad)
Part of this is my ultra-competitive nature which I can't really change. I say sorry in advance for being overly spike(ish). I know I come off as a jerk and its not intended. It is quite hard for me to represent tone in written language because I am not the worlds best writer. Most of you would probably find me quite funny IRL when tone of voice and stuff makes the things I say less doom and gloom.
Several of us have a new thread going for jund, and we could always use more help trying to figure it out without punishing fire. This was the biggest change from the bans. I don't even think that point is arguable.
I don't care, slipknot. I like you. I like your opinion, even though I give you **** sometimes. It is overwhelming though. Some people want an honest discussion without someone coming in every other post and saying *deck is bad cause other deck is good*.
It is kind of like the nature of the ban list. People don't like to be told what is good or bad, by you or WotC. That is why. I think your (and others) opinions have a place.
You get the brunt of the outburst from people because you are so vocal. That is why I think having a thread dedicated to the complaints is a good idea. It will force all of us to be constructive otherwise.
I for one have picked a deck that I like for this season, and it is at least UW if not Esper.
I do not want this to turn into another *pick on slipknot* thing. I am not doing that. I like you and respect your opinion and I also hope that some of my clan mates can put the differences aside for the league I am putting together because I want you to take part....
Just don't bash everything ever. It will go a long way. I promise
A lot of this will be solved if we get separate threads.
EDIT: I should be a mediator (I have a huge ego, I know.)
Do you understand you can't just fix the punishing fire problem with sideboard? Game 1 you just can't. Game 2 and 3, what do you do if you draw the card but they don't draw their combo? Have a dead card in hand? What if it's the opposite?
Sideboard cards are to help against specific matchups, specially combo. P. fire is just an engine every deck can use that is specially good when the format is slower and more creature based.
Non-basic land hate in the form of a land can be used even if they do not draw grove. At the very least it is a land that taps for 1. In the odd deck that I did not want to fit them in the main deck, I did SB something and it did fix the problem, so don't tell me you can't because I know from experience that is not true. I would argue that PunishingGrove is a combo that can be used as an engine, and if it is so critical to the deck it is in they will have some way to make sure they get it, which will make you SB not in vain.
Is the combo Strong? Yes. Consistent? Frighteningly so. Resilient? Sure. Red and green? Visually at least. Stays crispy in milk? NO! Joking aside (because you should not have milk at the game table), PunishingGrove was never a major worry for me. When faced with a challenge I look for a solution, not a way out.
If you want a powerful format, why so down on Zoo being powerful and dominate? You keep conterdicting yourself. Either you want a powerful format, unbalanced... which we have right now, so there shouldnt be any complaints. Or you want a balanced format which they are working on and are going to have to have patients.
I know your talking to DrWorm but This is my argument on said points. I believe he and I are pretty close to the same page on this argument.
The problem is that zoo is dominant. If combo, control, and aggro were all as powerful as zoo is then the format would be powerful and balanced. Control keeps formats from being so fast. Think of it like a teeter-totter. You have combo and aggro on one side. These decks push the speed of the format. Then you have control on the other side keeping the format slow. The end result is a(average) turn 4 format were aggro decks have to interact with combo decks which weakens them a bit so that control decks don't have too bad of a time with them. Combo decks have to run cards that are bad against aggro decks to not have a hard time with control. from here the format waxes and wanes as each base deck type gets popular the one that is good against it gets popular and the format goes through cycles sort of like seasons.
I am from Missouri and you are going to have to show me with this card pool thats possible without bannings. I dont believe it can be done. With the cards in the format either combo or aggro will be a bit better and control will always be a bit behind. Simply because Wotc has nuetered control since about Rav block.
Take the format without bans. Then add cards that we all know are too good.
skullclamp
SFM
Disciple of the vault
SDT.
Then look for the most powerful combo decks that are hard to answer, fast, resilient, ect. These decks typically don't interact with their opponent and can combo off multiple times in one game.(or at least attempt to combo off more than 1 time per game)
Dark depths
Hypergen
Blazing shoal
Start with this and give the format 6-9 months to evolve(6-9 months which includes at least 3/4 major tornaments)
Then act upon the results. If deck a is more than 20% of the format find a card to ban in it that doesn't kill the deck, and that doesn't hurt other decks.(narrow cards that only/mostly that deck uses)
Then wait 6/9 months again and see what the format looks like again.
It took almost 2 years to balance Legacy with the card pool they had that favored control. I would expect at least that long for Modern, maybe more because they are trying to do something different then Legacy.
Legacy had tons of broken cards from before R&D started pulling in the reins. We could count the mistake cards from the modern pool on one hand probably. Then we could use the other hand to list cards that have broken interactions with other cards. Urza's block alone had more of each of these.
Another aside: Part of this is also what I believe to be a flawed process. Apply the scientific approach to it and you would want to start with as many cards as you possibly could unbanned then only ban cards when results show you should.
Luckily for us we have a good base knowledge of what this card pool can do thanks to a past format that had 90% of the same card pool. This leaves us to theory-craft only cards printed later on.
What I wouldn't be happy with, is a meta of 1 tier 1 deck (with X variations) and barely any viable tier 2 decks.
This is pretty close to that atm. Zoo is the best deck. sort of like jund as the best deck, sort of like faeries was the best deck, sort of like caw-blade was the best deck. You play zoo or you play something that doesn't lose to zoo. Banning nactl and punishing fire IMO isn't going to be enough. I'm not saying that zoo was unbeatable. None of those decks I mentioned above were unbeatable. The best solution to solve zoo is not to go ban happy and ban more of the deck. banning things effects mulitple decks. I mean jund might not even be viable all for the sake of nothing. The best solution is too give control and combo something back and see if zoo can be oppressed a little bit which will allow more decks to be tier 1 because you have more niches to fill instead of beat zoo or play zoo.
What I think people don't realise is, whilst banning Nacatl and Pfire doesn't really hurt zoo much, it HELPS other decks more.
A 2/3 can be blocked advantagously with a 1/2 drop, a 3/3 is more difficult.
What decks specifically? Maybe some sort of tempo deck, but those are slightly suspect against zoo anyways. Menfolk and WW historically have pretty bad numbers against zoo. Even before zoo had nactl, lightning bolt, and KotR zoo was wrecking other aggro decks in extended.
As for the notions of "run Ghost Quarter to answer Punishing Grove instead of banning it"..
So every deck needs to pack "sacrifice your land, replace their dual land with a basic, still lose all your X/1 or X/2 guy to the PK Fire.
That being a problem in itself, if every other deck needs to pack a card to specifically hate against 1 card, thats not sideboard deck or clever deckbuilding, thats a warped meta.
Zoo itself has warped the meta more than punishing fire ever could....
For the most part PK Fire is terrible against control and combo. If these decks were as prevalent in the meta game(as zoo) then zoo(and other decks) would have taken the slots dedicated to punishing fire and replaced them with something to help the combo/control match ups. PK fire is only good in jund vs control because of its grindy nature. The meta game is a natural foil to certain things. It is just that combo and control are at least less glamorous than they were thus popularity has fallen. I'm not going to get into strength of these decks because I have said it a million times.
In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Thomas Jefferson
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RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I made a request for seperate threads with separate stipulations. Like in the "complain" thread, you kind of have to tacitly agree that the state of the format "sucks" or whatever. I will even moderate the "discussion" thread voluntarily if the mods don't want to.
But Absolute power does corrupt absolutely...
For the 3 people that feel all they do is bad, many more feel they are doing it right. In the end there will be a format you will either play or complain about.
Bah. I'm talented enough to both.
I think the assertion that they are doing it "right" could be argued. I mean the idea to let the players figure out what needs to be banned is something I can get behind....
but in the end you are right...I just want to play and I like the format now, before the 12/20 bans, and even before Philly....
I just like eternal formats. this one has a good niche to fill...IMO.
@Ember Twilight...that is funny.maybe I can too
UWU/W BlinkUW
BMono-Black ControlB
Commander:
GWUJenaraGWU
BGeth MBCB
RGXenagosRG
WUBSharuumWUB (retired)
Modern:
xAffinityx (starting)
Standard:
Ha! That's a good one.
As it should have been instead of the 12/20 announcment.
I certainly hope this is the case. I love the card pool for this format, I just wish it was a bit more powerful and expansive.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
Are you willing to sacrifice power for balance? I know I am. I would much rather have a balanced format then a powerful one.
I would much rather have a powerful, balanced format. I can sacrifice power for balance for a little while, but not for long. If the power doesn't eventually come back, I will likely just get bored. The only reason Standard is able to hold my interest is because of how often the metagame shifts.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
a format can be both powerful and balanced. It is a fallacy that one has to be exchanged for the other. For the most part none of the cards in modern are busted by themselves. We have a few two card combos that are too good like hypergen + any 3cmc cascade spell, and Dark depths + Vampire hexmage. Both of these decks are fast, consistent, persistent, and resistant. These are broken combo decks thus they are banned. Hypergen is the more broken combo because you can run 12 copies of your combo. Dark depths is problematic because it not only can win the game fast, but it can control the board pretty well while tutoring for pieces. Neither deck has really good hate that can be ran for it because they can easily answer most hate if your even fast enough with your hate.
Storm- Storm decks are quite fast, but they are pretty inconsistent and weak to any form of control. Also we have at least 2/3 cards that every color can run as hate from the sideboard. Grapeshot might be too good, but forcing them to run empty the warrens makes storm weak to ghostly prison, engineered explosives, ratchet bomb, even pyroclasm. A strong storm deck that has around a 3.75 magic turn would be a great way to vary the format and weaken the grip that zoo has. Zoo could still win against it, but they would have to get a better draw or use the sideboard. Since sideboards are roughly 57% of all matches this is fair.
Valakut- Scapeshift is the most balanced combo deck of recent times. Yet it is banned because wotc wanted to try to push aggro as much as possible except ZOO>Aggro. Burn decks are a weakness that scapeshift has so if it was a big part of the meta we would see burn decks creeping into more top 8s.
These changes need to happen Immediately, and they would fix the format.
Unban valakut
Unban preordain
Unban ponder
Unban chrome mox
Unban ancestral vision
Ban grapeshot or Pyromancer's swath.
The only way to make more than one aggro deck tier 1 would revolve around banning several key cards like
These are the cards that are making zoo powerful enough to keep other aggro decks at bay.....
Not saying that I think these should be banned, but pretty much the only way is to drop the hammer on zoo.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
OR give other aggro decks the tools that allow them to flourish in Legacy.
Print Goblin Lackey/Piledriver/Matron (not all, but maybe 2 of these?)
Give Merfolk some new toy, or make control a little better, thus making merfolk better
Give Chrome mox to decks like Bant and Doran that need them to not be strickly worse than Zoo
Then goblins would be the best deck lol. You can't have legacy goblins in modern lol. Goblins are either almost broke or crappy. No way to really have middle ground.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Yes, please, please let this happen!
I'm excited about Modern. I read this forum multiple times everyday, but I rarely post here due to the extreme negativity and frequent complaining across multiple threads from 3 certain users: Slipknot, honestabe, DrWorm. It's so bad that Slipknot's finally got the "honor" of being the first and only MTGS user on my ignore list.
A forum free from complaints would be fantastic. Even a single thread would be a tremendous first step.
EDIT: I'm not trying to flame the posters I mentioned. You guys are all certainly entitled to your own opinions. However, those opinions seem to be mostly contrary to what WotC has envisioned for this format. Stating them over and over and over does not seem very helpful at this point, and their repitition is certainly making these forums less enjoyable for me personally.
not like your going to read this anyways but just because we have different opinions of how things are don't mean that we are whining man. Several of use have shown valid proof of what changes would do to the format. Instead of hopping on here and pseudo flaming every post with baseless acusations and meaningless words.
We will see how much banning nactl and punishing fire will change things. Signs and evidence points to almost not at all which is a problem since zoo was around 30% of the meta at worlds and around the same at PT Philly.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Judging by the way they haven't even mentioned unbannings in any serious sense, and that cards that literally will have no impact if unbanned are still on it (Grave-Troll, much?), I doubt that's going to happen any time soon.
Really, just the fact that Grave-Troll is still on there seals the deal that we're not getting unbannings anytime soon.
This was also my impression. I was actually speechless when it wasn't mentioned. I am going to tweet AF and see if I can give him a good wrench minding
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Completely agree with this 110%. This forum seriously needs a "Complain/*****/moan/whine about Modern here" thread so people can vent there instead of everywhere on the forum. Other forums on the site have similar threads, so why not Modern too?
presenting valid information and opinions of what should be done and what has been done is not complaining. Complaining would be like I hate blue decks because they run counterspells. Or I cant play my plant tribal deck because punishing fire exist and I'm pissed about it.
There is a fine line between complaining and commenting. One is presenting arguments with valid proof. The other is just being a hater.
This would not be a discussion if we didn't have input from both sides of the aisle. I have presented more proof and evidence than most people on the "Pro everything is wonder and this format is awesome because I love zoo" side of the argument.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Well, sir, this is just as baseless as what you were calling baseless before because I know for a fact that you are not testing and just theory crafting based on data from yore. There are at least 5 people who have responded to you this way, and I have sent an official request for a "complain" thread.
You would be able to get your message across if people didn't find you so overwhelming that they put you on their ignore list.
I am also not trying to flame you, but your opinion is spread over these forums ad infinitum.
I just want people to play nice, but it is hard when you insert your negativity into every thread ever. Some people want to discuss, not sit here and argue how every deck is bad, the cards they have banned are the only good ones, etc etc etc
I probably will post in the complain thread too, I am not 100% happy, but I am only one person and I have a lot of fun with this format on MTGO. More so now because I get real pleasure out of hen-pecking people to death with Squadron Hawks....Thanks P-Fire ban!!!
EDIT: I like you slips. Again, you have solid theory. You are right that Zoo is far and away the best aggro deck in the format. You are absolutely wrong that there is no other deck that competes.
If you want a powerful format, why so down on Zoo being powerful and dominate? You keep conterdicting yourself. Either you want a powerful format, unbalanced... which we have right now, so there shouldnt be any complaints. Or you want a balanced format which they are working on and are going to have to have patients.
I am from Missouri and you are going to have to show me with this card pool thats possible without bannings. I dont believe it can be done. With the cards in the format either combo or aggro will be a bit better and control will always be a bit behind. Simply because Wotc has nuetered control since about Rav block.
It took almost 2 years to balance Legacy with the card pool they had that favored control. I would expect at least that long for Modern, maybe more because they are trying to do something different then Legacy.
People take everything I say literally when it is not meant that way. I prevent things how I see them in a very analytical and logical sense. It is sort of like different words mean different things to people. When most people say the word viable they mean you can build it and play it. Viable means good to me. Good means able to have a decent win % against the best decks in the field without having a super negative % against too many decks.(something like 40/60 is what I considered super bad)
Part of this is my ultra-competitive nature which I can't really change. I say sorry in advance for being overly spike(ish). I know I come off as a jerk and its not intended. It is quite hard for me to represent tone in written language because I am not the worlds best writer. Most of you would probably find me quite funny IRL when tone of voice and stuff makes the things I say less doom and gloom.
Several of us have a new thread going for jund, and we could always use more help trying to figure it out without punishing fire. This was the biggest change from the bans. I don't even think that point is arguable.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I don't care, slipknot. I like you. I like your opinion, even though I give you **** sometimes. It is overwhelming though. Some people want an honest discussion without someone coming in every other post and saying *deck is bad cause other deck is good*.
It is kind of like the nature of the ban list. People don't like to be told what is good or bad, by you or WotC. That is why. I think your (and others) opinions have a place.
You get the brunt of the outburst from people because you are so vocal. That is why I think having a thread dedicated to the complaints is a good idea. It will force all of us to be constructive otherwise.
I for one have picked a deck that I like for this season, and it is at least UW if not Esper.
I do not want this to turn into another *pick on slipknot* thing. I am not doing that. I like you and respect your opinion and I also hope that some of my clan mates can put the differences aside for the league I am putting together because I want you to take part....
Just don't bash everything ever. It will go a long way. I promise
A lot of this will be solved if we get separate threads.
EDIT: I should be a mediator (I have a huge ego, I know.)
Is the combo Strong? Yes. Consistent? Frighteningly so. Resilient? Sure. Red and green? Visually at least. Stays crispy in milk? NO! Joking aside (because you should not have milk at the game table), Punishing Grove was never a major worry for me. When faced with a challenge I look for a solution, not a way out.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
Legacy had tons of broken cards from before R&D started pulling in the reins. We could count the mistake cards from the modern pool on one hand probably. Then we could use the other hand to list cards that have broken interactions with other cards. Urza's block alone had more of each of these.
Another aside: Part of this is also what I believe to be a flawed process. Apply the scientific approach to it and you would want to start with as many cards as you possibly could unbanned then only ban cards when results show you should.
Luckily for us we have a good base knowledge of what this card pool can do thanks to a past format that had 90% of the same card pool. This leaves us to theory-craft only cards printed later on.
Zoo itself has warped the meta more than punishing fire ever could....
For the most part PK Fire is terrible against control and combo. If these decks were as prevalent in the meta game(as zoo) then zoo(and other decks) would have taken the slots dedicated to punishing fire and replaced them with something to help the combo/control match ups. PK fire is only good in jund vs control because of its grindy nature. The meta game is a natural foil to certain things. It is just that combo and control are at least less glamorous than they were thus popularity has fallen. I'm not going to get into strength of these decks because I have said it a million times.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson