But there are also many W decks that can't take SFM in. I highly doubt that Delver Blade,Tokens, UW Tron, Eggs and any form of Boros would play it because of the tempo loss it provides. It's questionable if it would fit in Projekt Meliria, because the creatures are most of the time utility creatures that ramp or let you survive longer. And DnT would weaken one of its most important engine: Leonin Arbiter and Ghost Quarter.
The winner of the unbanning of SFM are all Cawblade and Bant lists, which is a good thing for me, because the format would slow down significantly.
Cawblade and UW control have been running rampant the last few weeks, they are certainly doing fine, especially with Restoration Angel from AVR.
and about sensei's divining top ? i think can be fine for some control decks, without be "format warping".
i know there is the time problem in tournament. but my thought is : if someone takes minutes each time to decide about the three top card you simply call the judge and give him game loss for slow play; i can't accept that a card can be banned because some slow people
It's not the power of top, it's the fact that you can essentially cast Ponder anytime you have priority minus the drawing; which means you can take repeated 30 second breaks from the game. You can top, crack a fetch and top again; which could potentially waste 2 minutes of a game, and it's not considered slow-play or anything like that; Top is a fine card in terms of power, and wouldn't be format warping, but it would be warping the amount of time it takes to play a game; which is a really bad thing.
It's not the power of top, it's the fact that you can essentially cast Ponder anytime you have priority minus the drawing; which means you can take repeated 30 second breaks from the game. You can top, crack a fetch and top again; which could potentially waste 2 minutes of a game, and it's not considered slow-play or anything like that; Top is a fine card in terms of power, and wouldn't be format warping, but it would be warping the amount of time it takes to play a game; which is a really bad thing.
I honestly don't think this is the reason it's banned. Just because certain people take a while to play with their tops doesn't make it ban worthy. Were that the case, it would be banned in legacy for sure.
I'm about 95% sure that it's banned because of counterbalance. It's a powerful card on its own, but countertop is just not OK in modern.
I honestly don't think this is the reason it's banned. Just because certain people take a while to play with their tops doesn't make it ban worthy. Were that the case, it would be banned in legacy for sure.
I'm about 95% sure that it's banned because of counterbalance. It's a powerful card on its own, but countertop is just not OK in modern.
Yeah, i mean i'm not saying top sucks, but I'm pretty sure i remember the explanation literally being 'because it makes games long'. You should have a big sticky locked thread that has that article in it, since it gets brought up so much :D. And it is a pretty huge problem in Legacy. Especially when countertop gets popular; you'll notice a LOT more 1-1 draws. I remember watching LSV talk about Legacy tournaments and he was saying how Legacy specifically needs longer match times, because of a lot of the things that happen, including Top.
It happened yesterday in the earlier rounds of the SCG Indy invite. The pros that were talking with the announcers were talking how top is a real problem in the format. It draws out games and top players know how to play to get a draw instead of a loss and its all legal.
Counter/top in Modern would be just as bad or worse.
It happened yesterday in the earlier rounds of the SCG Indy invite. The pros that were talking with the announcers were talking how top is a real problem in the format. It draws out games and top players know how to play to get a draw instead of a loss and its all legal.
Counter/top in Modern would be just as bad or worse.
I agree. Top just unnecessarily drags out games, even if it's ability is still relevant.
It happened yesterday in the earlier rounds of the SCG Indy invite. The pros that were talking with the announcers were talking how top is a real problem in the format. It draws out games and top players know how to play to get a draw instead of a loss and its all legal.
Counter/top in Modern would be just as bad or worse.
It was before indy, it was at least a month ago. It's a pretty huge issue, i'm sure it came up again yesterday, though. Which, they should probably do something about it. By banning it, or making some sort of time errata to it, like making it so it can only be activated once per turn? That's more Uncommon level, i think
Unfortunately you can legally stall with Sense's Top. I think somethin should have been done about this like three years ago rather than having to be the frustrated opponent across from the Top deck or seeing an otherwise harmless artifact be banned in modern. It's interaction with Counterbalance isn't a good enough reason to ban the card imo, considering CounterTop isn't going to help you when your opponent has a bunch of dudes in play.
Maverick craps on Countertop in Legacy. So do Merfolk and so does Tempo Thresh. We have near same versions of those decks here in modern, I really don't think it would be a problem. It would surely help hose storm, though, but so would a very much needed reprint of Stifle.
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Moving on to actual banlist discussion... can anyone see goyf getting banned? I'm not necessarily for it, but as SFM got banned due to the fact that it "decreases format diversity", I could definitely see it being a possibility.
I fail to see how it decreases format diversity. There will always be a top creature that will be played at the exclusion of slightly worse creatures. Goyf does not belong in plenty of decks that could run it, and it is not like as soon as you see a forest hit the field you can expect some hot Lhurgoyf action. There is no sea of Goyfs that blots the metagame.
All of that said...that does not mean I could not see it banned. Most of the last few bans have been ones I opposed and thought might not happen, so in my mind should ban and will ban are not even speaking to each other.
I thought Goyf could be banned, but it's not nearly as big a barrier to entry problem as I feared due to the format shifting mostly towards decks that just don't want it. Also, it's more reprintable in Standard than I thought.
(I suspect Sensei's Top and Ponder are both very close to the axe in Legacy, btw- neither will see the light of day in Modern again.)
It's funny when you talk about Ponder, because it's essentially a slightly-modified Portent. Making the slowtrip into a true cantrip made all the difference in the world in terms of power. The card has been restricted in Vintage for a while, along with Brainstorm, both because they increase the consistency of decks that use them too much. I know Vintage is a totally different format, but the same reasoning was still used for why Ponder and Preordain got banned in Modern.
Speaking of Preordain, the same thing can be said for Preordain as well. Preordain is just Serum Visions in reverse because the M11 team wanted a card selection tool that had the two actions in the "right" order. They seriously underestimated how such a subtle change resulted in a drastically more powerful card.
Given how ubiquitous Preordain was last year in Standard along with how central Ponder is in keeping any deck with blue in it consistent, it has made Wizards reevaluate card selection for U as a whole. I can't remember who exactly said it (I think it was Gavin), but they said that R&D now considers Ponder to be too good of a card for just one mana and that it's more appropriate as a two mana spell. This recent reevaluation on hand sculpting spells is why I don't see either Ponder or Preordain getting unbanned.
Preordain seems like its at the correct power level for a single blue mana. Serum visions just is not powerful enough to help get control decks get going.
Actually no...but then again this is not a standard forum. I am ok with ponder being banned but I think power level wise Preordain is exactly what it should be.
Actually no...but then again this is not a standard forum. I am ok with ponder being banned but I think power level wise Preordain is exactly what it should be.
Preordain is easily more powerful than ponder in a fetch-less format.
Preordain is easily more powerful than ponder in a fetch-less format.
Keep the discussion on modern. As far as I know, this is a format with fetches.
In any case, ponder is better in this format than preordain. That is arguable, of course, but it seems to be the general consensus.
I think the more powerful (ponder) can stay banned, but I feel like preordain doesn't have to be. I doubt it will get unbanned in the next few days, but I think it can be.
My thoughts come from how the format was before they were banned. Storm was a little better, as was splinter twin; heck, most blue decks all the way through bant were better than they are now. Dominating? No. I think ponder gone would have hurt them enough anyways; but they just really didn't need to be hurt in the first place.
They are better in entirely different types of decks. Preordain is better in control and A/C decks. Ponder is better in Combo. Both are absolutely obscene because of the amount of variance they reduce for the player casting them over the course of a game.
They are better in entirely different types of decks. Preordain is better in control and A/C decks. Ponder is better in Combo. Both are absolutely obscene because of the amount of variance they reduce for the player casting them over the course of a game.
As far as I know, that was the old theory; then people realized ponder was still better than preordain in formats with fetch-lands... hence why most legacy control decks, if they are going to run one of the two, pick ponder.
I understand that they are good, but I think preordain could come back without messing anything up, is what I'm saying. When they were both legal they weren't hurting the format much in the first place. However much they actually were hurting would be diminished by the absence of ponder.
Yeah, i mean i'm not saying top sucks, but I'm pretty sure i remember the explanation literally being 'because it makes games long'. You should have a big sticky locked thread that has that article in it, since it gets brought up so much :D. And it is a pretty huge problem in Legacy. Especially when countertop gets popular; you'll notice a LOT more 1-1 draws. I remember watching LSV talk about Legacy tournaments and he was saying how Legacy specifically needs longer match times, because of a lot of the things that happen, including Top.
Yeah, the reasoning behind the ban of SDT was because of the time constraints at bigger events. Obviously Countertop was a strong combo but it wasn't he reason they listed for the ban.
As far as I know, that was the old theory; then people realized ponder was still better than preordain in formats with fetch-lands... hence why most legacy control decks, if they are going to run one of the two, pick ponder.
I understand that they are good, but I think preordain could come back without messing anything up, is what I'm saying. When they were both legal they weren't hurting the format much in the first place. However much they actually were hurting would be diminished by the absence of ponder.
No, it's not the "old theory". Modern is not Legacy. If you are evaluating a card based on Legacy, throw your preconceptions away. The formats have very little in common. Legacy is full of complete BS that's countered by complete BS. Bans occur when complete BS breaks the pattern and ends up taking over a format. The entire reason they are banned is because they allow blue decks to smooth their draws to an absolutely absurd degree. They speed up Combo decks by a gigantic amount relative to the amount they assist other decks. You may "think" you know something based on Legacy, but power is relative.
The link below is the decks in the format currently running both Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand. Just like in Legacy, it's Delver and Combo decks. Delver is one of the format's best archetypes. Combo overran the format at the PT, and following that, the format started to coalesce into a healthy metagame, especially after the removal of Punishing Fire allowed small creatures to live free again.
These are not decks you want enabled further if you care about a healthy metagame. Pat Chapin's line about "They want to put ____ in Bad Decks" applies here. But the "Bad Decks" here are non-Combo decks. They're the entire reason the two cards are banned, and will continue to be banned. It doesn't matter if you want to play it in your control deck, where it would be a little better than Serum Visions. It's banned because it's detrimental to the format to give combo decks access to cards that enable the level of consistency that these cantrips do.
I still think the banning of Valakut is absurd. In a format where Turn 3 Karn is common, and turn 4 Iona off Gifts ungiven is also legal, consistent, and easy, how exactly is Valakut overpowered or dominant? Valakut strategies are also notoriously bad at beating other combo decks, and given that we have Tron (might as well be combo), Twin, Storm, and Pod all around, I really don't get why Wizards is so scared of the infamous mountain.
Valakut would make non-tron ramp strategies viable, don't get me wrong, but it would hardly be overpowered. I would imagine most scapeshift variants would probably be tier 1.5 decks at best if we're being honest.
I think that the risky thing about having Valakut in the format is it's a free, uncounterable, win con or spot removal, and it doesn't even really take up a slot. It's combo has synergy with cards that are good without it, kind of like the punishing grove combo only not as good. It could be safe, but I don't think the banning was a bad idea because even if it is safe, it's on the line.
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Cawblade and UW control have been running rampant the last few weeks, they are certainly doing fine, especially with Restoration Angel from AVR.
It's not the power of top, it's the fact that you can essentially cast Ponder anytime you have priority minus the drawing; which means you can take repeated 30 second breaks from the game. You can top, crack a fetch and top again; which could potentially waste 2 minutes of a game, and it's not considered slow-play or anything like that; Top is a fine card in terms of power, and wouldn't be format warping, but it would be warping the amount of time it takes to play a game; which is a really bad thing.
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I honestly don't think this is the reason it's banned. Just because certain people take a while to play with their tops doesn't make it ban worthy. Were that the case, it would be banned in legacy for sure.
I'm about 95% sure that it's banned because of counterbalance. It's a powerful card on its own, but countertop is just not OK in modern.
Said so on the banned list explanation thing.
Yeah, i mean i'm not saying top sucks, but I'm pretty sure i remember the explanation literally being 'because it makes games long'. You should have a big sticky locked thread that has that article in it, since it gets brought up so much :D. And it is a pretty huge problem in Legacy. Especially when countertop gets popular; you'll notice a LOT more 1-1 draws. I remember watching LSV talk about Legacy tournaments and he was saying how Legacy specifically needs longer match times, because of a lot of the things that happen, including Top.
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Counter/top in Modern would be just as bad or worse.
I agree. Top just unnecessarily drags out games, even if it's ability is still relevant.
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It was before indy, it was at least a month ago. It's a pretty huge issue, i'm sure it came up again yesterday, though. Which, they should probably do something about it. By banning it, or making some sort of time errata to it, like making it so it can only be activated once per turn? That's more Uncommon level, i think
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Maverick craps on Countertop in Legacy. So do Merfolk and so does Tempo Thresh. We have near same versions of those decks here in modern, I really don't think it would be a problem. It would surely help hose storm, though, but so would a very much needed reprint of Stifle.
By: ol MISAKA lo
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All of that said...that does not mean I could not see it banned. Most of the last few bans have been ones I opposed and thought might not happen, so in my mind should ban and will ban are not even speaking to each other.
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
(I suspect Sensei's Top and Ponder are both very close to the axe in Legacy, btw- neither will see the light of day in Modern again.)
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
I suspect you mean brainstorm, not ponder.
Speaking of Preordain, the same thing can be said for Preordain as well. Preordain is just Serum Visions in reverse because the M11 team wanted a card selection tool that had the two actions in the "right" order. They seriously underestimated how such a subtle change resulted in a drastically more powerful card.
Given how ubiquitous Preordain was last year in Standard along with how central Ponder is in keeping any deck with blue in it consistent, it has made Wizards reevaluate card selection for U as a whole. I can't remember who exactly said it (I think it was Gavin), but they said that R&D now considers Ponder to be too good of a card for just one mana and that it's more appropriate as a two mana spell. This recent reevaluation on hand sculpting spells is why I don't see either Ponder or Preordain getting unbanned.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Actually no...but then again this is not a standard forum. I am ok with ponder being banned but I think power level wise Preordain is exactly what it should be.
Preordain is easily more powerful than ponder in a fetch-less format.
Keep the discussion on modern. As far as I know, this is a format with fetches.
In any case, ponder is better in this format than preordain. That is arguable, of course, but it seems to be the general consensus.
I think the more powerful (ponder) can stay banned, but I feel like preordain doesn't have to be. I doubt it will get unbanned in the next few days, but I think it can be.
My thoughts come from how the format was before they were banned. Storm was a little better, as was splinter twin; heck, most blue decks all the way through bant were better than they are now. Dominating? No. I think ponder gone would have hurt them enough anyways; but they just really didn't need to be hurt in the first place.
Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
As far as I know, that was the old theory; then people realized ponder was still better than preordain in formats with fetch-lands... hence why most legacy control decks, if they are going to run one of the two, pick ponder.
I understand that they are good, but I think preordain could come back without messing anything up, is what I'm saying. When they were both legal they weren't hurting the format much in the first place. However much they actually were hurting would be diminished by the absence of ponder.
Yeah, the reasoning behind the ban of SDT was because of the time constraints at bigger events. Obviously Countertop was a strong combo but it wasn't he reason they listed for the ban.
No, it's not the "old theory". Modern is not Legacy. If you are evaluating a card based on Legacy, throw your preconceptions away. The formats have very little in common. Legacy is full of complete BS that's countered by complete BS. Bans occur when complete BS breaks the pattern and ends up taking over a format. The entire reason they are banned is because they allow blue decks to smooth their draws to an absolutely absurd degree. They speed up Combo decks by a gigantic amount relative to the amount they assist other decks. You may "think" you know something based on Legacy, but power is relative.
The link below is the decks in the format currently running both Serum Visions and Sleight of Hand. Just like in Legacy, it's Delver and Combo decks. Delver is one of the format's best archetypes. Combo overran the format at the PT, and following that, the format started to coalesce into a healthy metagame, especially after the removal of Punishing Fire allowed small creatures to live free again.
These are not decks you want enabled further if you care about a healthy metagame. Pat Chapin's line about "They want to put ____ in Bad Decks" applies here. But the "Bad Decks" here are non-Combo decks. They're the entire reason the two cards are banned, and will continue to be banned. It doesn't matter if you want to play it in your control deck, where it would be a little better than Serum Visions. It's banned because it's detrimental to the format to give combo decks access to cards that enable the level of consistency that these cantrips do.
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Current post- Grand Prix KC Modern Postmortem (7/7/13)
Valakut would make non-tron ramp strategies viable, don't get me wrong, but it would hardly be overpowered. I would imagine most scapeshift variants would probably be tier 1.5 decks at best if we're being honest.