Your missing the point: Wild Nacatl was the best 1 drop creature in the format, and no matter what you replace it with, zoo gets weaker. Other options might be faster/more explosive, but no other 1 drop in the card pool offers the same amount of explosiveness and consistency as Nacatl.
like 1% weaker. It is mostly insignificant. Zoo is the same deck as it was except 1 in 15 of your cards is slightly weaker than before. Then you have probably like a 1 in 10 chance that the one power will actually matter in the game.
It would be like having the storm decks from philly except you only ban preordain instead of banning ponder, preordain, and rite of flame. banning one card that is easily replaced is not going to make much of a difference even if that one card is slightly weaker. Now if the only 1 drops left were something like mog fanatic that would have been a pretty big jump, but options like Loam Lion, Steppe lynx, and Goblin guide are not a big jump and are very good themselves.
Zoo is essentially going to be just as strong. You might lose a game every once in a great while because of the change.
Jund is now pretty weak so it will have to innovate and probably attempt to go back to looking more like its standard counterpart with a higher top end.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
What else is new? He posts a lot of very extreme opinions. It is only natural that a good amount of people would disagree with him. He's perfectly entitled to his opinions, a good portion of people just think several of them are wrong.
Nothing is better than nactl against the mirror or other aggro decks.(except maybe lavamancer against other aggro decks since x/2s still won't fly in this meta)
So now zoo has to pick between being slightly better vs aggro or control/combo. 4 creatures out of 16+ other creatures is mostly not going to be noticed.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Slip, most of the time the INTERNET is representing common sense, and you are just posing the counterargument for Devil's Advocate's sake. None of us would have a problem with that, if you didn't parade around and post EVERYWHERE, expecting that somehow what you type will always be relevant. It's not. You seem to know everything about every deck and all the mechanics in the format, yet you never seem to have constructive criticism. The first decklist I posted in the Zoo threads several months ago you thrashed as being "the worst" you'd ever seen. Yet I doubt if you've ever played a game with Zoo in you life.
It would be amazing to see you say something like, "I'm working on this deck, and here are some of it's flaws and strengths, and here's how I intend on improving it. Also, Zoo is less of a problem now, but still a contender, and I think these decks will probably emerge as prominent in the coming months as well"
Instead of, "Oh hai guys, actually everything in the last 10 posts can be summed up in my five words, and you guys clearly don't know a thing about how to play this deck, it's really quite simple, don't you know that Wild Nacatl was actually bad this whole time? Oh and any deck that I haven't written a primer on will always suck, period. Even Merfolk."
Maybe you should add some common sense to your common sense, and just <snip> chill a little bit dude.
~Homeland at 5AM.
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So is Martyr Proc finally a deck yet or is the fact that it's just "white weenie" and "life gain sux" too much for people to stomach?
I'll concede tribal (merfolk/kithkin) still have an uphill battle since they need to swarm and removal kinda screws them hard.
Proc is made of glass. Control owns it pretty hard, and if you don't draw martyr early your probably not going to win against zoo. It is a meta solution deck made to beat mindless aggro decks that can't run answers.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
Solomon, yes exactly, multiple opinions and not one of them is going to be correct all the time. That was my point, which you seemed to misunderstand. I'm looking for multiple opinions on these threads, all with their own sound reasoning and logic backing them up, not one poster who clutters every thread with hollow cookie-cutter statements.
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MODERN RGB Jund BGR WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY RUGB Delver GURB
EDH UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR BBB Skithiryx Control BB
Proc is made of glass. Control owns it pretty hard, and if you don't draw martyr early your probably not going to win against zoo. It is a meta solution deck made to beat mindless aggro decks that can't run answers.
That's the conclusion I came to. Control destroys it. The deck just begs to go against aggro fears control matchups.
I think it's great with all these bannings leading up to the season. I understand and support their guidelines for slower play as well as diversity in decks being played.
That's the conclusion I came to. Control destroys it. The deck just begs to go against aggro fears control matchups.
I think it's great with all these bannings leading up to the season. I understand and support their guidelines for slower play as well as diversity in decks being played.
That was how the deck has done traditionally. I am not sure if you played extended but it was called Idiot-life if you want to peer though some old list in the attempt to find new tech.
Also The banning IMO have done more to hurt the variety of decks played in this format. I could remove 3 cards from the ban list that would not speed the format up any and make at lest 3/4 new decks viable.
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I could remove 3 cards from the ban list that would not speed the format up any and make at lest 3/4 new decks viable.
I agree, there are some cards that should be in consideration for unbanning. Slower formats usually mean more diversity, since fast formats kill of alot of decks and stifle creativity. 4-5 turn clock is a great middle ground for more types of decks to shine.
I agree, there are some cards that should be in consideration for unbanning. Slower formats usually mean more diversity, since fast formats kill of alot of decks and stifle creativity. 4-5 turn clock is a great middle ground for more types of decks to shine.
Just as long as combo is one turn faster than aggro. If combo that can often times go off on turn 3 is too fast then aggro needs to be slowed down. the only reason to run a combo deck is the have a better MU vs aggro decks.(or I guess if you like that deck)
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In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.
Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
Albert Einstein
Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
I was digging through my lists and updating some decks, while removing others. Thought it might be interesting to see what archtypes everybody is testing against. My list is a little long and I dont usually get around to testing all of them thoroughly, so I will break it down into decks I definitely should test against (decks I expect to see at a PTQ) and decks that I want to test against (decks that I might see at a PTQ):
Definitely:
Jund
Blue Zoo
Gifts
Storm
Melira Pod
Twin
Maybe:
Rb Burn
Affinity
Hive Mind
Living End
Martyr
Elves
Boros
Teachings
I guess you could say that this is my list of decks to beat and decks to watch.
Do people think the Storm/Tokens metagame circle will be as present in paper for the PTQs as it is on MTGO due to the cheapness of storm and the hard counter in Tokens alongside the grind for profit nature of dailies compared to people's willingness to invest in expensive decks for PTQs?
I'm trying to figure out if I should invest my time in purchasing, tuning and learning storm or if I should pick a more resilient deck if there is going to be a dedicated hatedeck in the field.
As the majority of this thread is PRE Banlist. I've decided to start it over and give people a place to post thier PTQ results.
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like 1% weaker. It is mostly insignificant. Zoo is the same deck as it was except 1 in 15 of your cards is slightly weaker than before. Then you have probably like a 1 in 10 chance that the one power will actually matter in the game.
It would be like having the storm decks from philly except you only ban preordain instead of banning ponder, preordain, and rite of flame. banning one card that is easily replaced is not going to make much of a difference even if that one card is slightly weaker. Now if the only 1 drops left were something like mog fanatic that would have been a pretty big jump, but options like Loam Lion, Steppe lynx, and Goblin guide are not a big jump and are very good themselves.
Zoo is essentially going to be just as strong. You might lose a game every once in a great while because of the change.
Jund is now pretty weak so it will have to innovate and probably attempt to go back to looking more like its standard counterpart with a higher top end.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
What else is new? He posts a lot of very extreme opinions. It is only natural that a good amount of people would disagree with him. He's perfectly entitled to his opinions, a good portion of people just think several of them are wrong.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
common sense vs the internet is more like it lol.
Nothing is better than nactl against the mirror or other aggro decks.(except maybe lavamancer against other aggro decks since x/2s still won't fly in this meta)
So now zoo has to pick between being slightly better vs aggro or control/combo. 4 creatures out of 16+ other creatures is mostly not going to be noticed.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
It would be amazing to see you say something like, "I'm working on this deck, and here are some of it's flaws and strengths, and here's how I intend on improving it. Also, Zoo is less of a problem now, but still a contender, and I think these decks will probably emerge as prominent in the coming months as well"
Instead of, "Oh hai guys, actually everything in the last 10 posts can be summed up in my five words, and you guys clearly don't know a thing about how to play this deck, it's really quite simple, don't you know that Wild Nacatl was actually bad this whole time? Oh and any deck that I haven't written a primer on will always suck, period. Even Merfolk."
Maybe you should add some common sense to your common sense, and just <snip> chill a little bit dude.
~Homeland at 5AM.
Moderator Action: Warning for Censer Evasion. Please focus on the topic rather than attacking individual users. t_c
Please read the Forum Rules
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
I'll concede tribal (merfolk/kithkin) still have an uphill battle since they need to swarm and removal kinda screws them hard.
The latter. My testing partner and I tried Martyr Proc last night, and the deck was just a joke.
Proc is made of glass. Control owns it pretty hard, and if you don't draw martyr early your probably not going to win against zoo. It is a meta solution deck made to beat mindless aggro decks that can't run answers.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
RGB Jund BGR
WGB Junk/Abzan Company WGB
LEGACY
RUGB Delver GURB
EDH
UW Geist of Saint Traft Aggro-Control WU
RUG Riku of Two Reflections Combo GUR
BBB Skithiryx Control BB
That's the conclusion I came to. Control destroys it. The deck just begs to go against aggro fears control matchups.
I think it's great with all these bannings leading up to the season. I understand and support their guidelines for slower play as well as diversity in decks being played.
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
That was how the deck has done traditionally. I am not sure if you played extended but it was called Idiot-life if you want to peer though some old list in the attempt to find new tech.
Also The banning IMO have done more to hurt the variety of decks played in this format. I could remove 3 cards from the ban list that would not speed the format up any and make at lest 3/4 new decks viable.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I agree, there are some cards that should be in consideration for unbanning. Slower formats usually mean more diversity, since fast formats kill of alot of decks and stifle creativity. 4-5 turn clock is a great middle ground for more types of decks to shine.
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
Just as long as combo is one turn faster than aggro. If combo that can often times go off on turn 3 is too fast then aggro needs to be slowed down. the only reason to run a combo deck is the have a better MU vs aggro decks.(or I guess if you like that deck)
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
Definitely:
Jund
Blue Zoo
Gifts
Storm
Melira Pod
Twin
Maybe:
Rb Burn
Affinity
Hive Mind
Living End
Martyr
Elves
Boros
Teachings
I guess you could say that this is my list of decks to beat and decks to watch.
FREE BLOODBRAID ELF
Red Affinity
Tez Affinity
Jund
UW Tron
Martyr Proc
White Weenie
Polymorph Token.dec
RDW (pure red, RB, RW, RU)
Tribal Zoo
Pyromancer Storm
Teachings
Splinter Twin
Melira Pod
Notable Rogues:
RUG
Sunnyside Up
Esper Gifts Reanimator
Mono-Blue Control
Faeries
Shaman Tribe
Hive Mind
Living End
Is that about right?
Yes, that looks reasonable. But, I would caution you that the Modern dailies may not be representative of what people bring to PTQs.
That said, there wasn't a single Zoo deck in the top 8 of the Seattle PTQ.
If your answer is "No," then your morality does not come from God's commandments.
If your answer is "Yes," then please, please reconsider.
What do you attribute a lack of Zoo in the top 8 of Seattle's PTQ to?
I'm trying to figure out if I should invest my time in purchasing, tuning and learning storm or if I should pick a more resilient deck if there is going to be a dedicated hatedeck in the field.