It was healthy in that for the time being it will stop tournament rounds from going way past time, a better banning would have been Pyrite Spellbomb if they wanted to speed up the deck
This is incorrect, the deck loses consistency based on how much you dilute it with bad win conditions, when the win condition itself is an egg you only increase consistency. Other win conditions were not just included to grapeshot or disciple of the vault (which isn't good), you could also play awkward cards like laboratory maniac.
In order to make this deck win faster, it needs to not exist in it's current form. This banning hopefully accomplishes that.
In order to make this deck win faster, it needs to not exist in it's current form. This banning hopefully accomplishes that.
The deck existed before Faith's Reward was printed so I am not sure how this ban will change the deck from its current form that much (I still played my old Eggs list before they printed Faith's Reward) it does slow the deck down as Faith's Reward costs 4 mana instead of 3, but has the upside of being one-sided and requiring little W
Yes, Second Sunrise needed to be banned, the deck took way to long to combo off. It's nearly the same reason why they banned Top in Modern, because it made games last way longer then they needed to. At the end of the day it was stupid that they didn't un-ban something as well, but whatever at least now I'm not forced to walk away from a guy comboing off for 20 minutes only to come back and find out he still isn't done.
A) The deck wasn't the problem, but players who did not know what to do.
B) The ban doesn't remove the deck completely and might even make it slower when it is seen.
C) A couple of months we had too much combo. Now we have too little combo.
D) We want more variety and richness in a format, not less.
As a note, I never played eggs in my life and played against it several times, so no, don't try to pass me off as an eggs player.
Have a problem with your first point. Holiday seemed like a pretty astute eggs player and his turns took excess of 15 minutes at the SD GP. That is all.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Modern GB Rock U Flooding Merfolk RUG Delver Midrange WU Monks UW Tempo Geist GW Bogle GW Liege UR Tron B Vampires
Affinity Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity EDH W Akroma GBW Ghave BRU Thrax GR Ruric I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
I think it's a tad unhelathy to really ban an entire deck, I would've liked to see a ban on pyrite spellbomb if it was simply a ban to speed up tourneys as they said it was.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
If you're gonna come at the King, you'd best not miss.
I think people aren't reading the writing on the wall. WOTC does not want non interactive combos in modern. Period. Whether you agree or not is moot, it's their game and they are creating the format they think will appeal to the most people.
The results of this poll are pretty clear. Most people don't like combos like eggs and storm in the format. Combo's like Twin are just fine. There is plenty of interaction, and there's no sitting around waiting while your opponent gestures or clicks like like Carrot Top on speed.
If you love eggs and storm type of decks, that's just fine. Legacy is the perfect format for you. Don't let the door hit you and all that.
I think people aren't reading the writing on the wall. WOTC does not want non interactive combos in modern. Period. Whether you agree or not is moot, it's their game and they are creating the format they think will appeal to the most people.
The results of this poll are pretty clear. Most people don't like combos like eggs and storm in the format. Combo's like Twin are just fine. There is plenty of interaction, and there's no sitting around waiting while your opponent gestures or clicks like like Carrot Top on speed.
If you love eggs and storm type of decks, that's just fine. Legacy is the perfect format for you. Don't let the door hit you and all that.
Neither Storm nor Eggs were banned for being non interactive combo decks. If you choose to believe Wizards when they cite their reasons for a banning, then both decks were banned for falling into previously established banning criterion. Note that Storm was fine until RtR provided it with a bit too much consistency allowing it to go off on turn three a bit too often. Eggs was simply a timing and logistics issue.
Now, I should probably point out that being non interactive makes it easier to go off on turn three unopposed. However, the point is that as far as I know Wizards has never said that they will ban combo decks solely for being non interactive. I may be wrong on this though, and I'm totally willing to own up to it if I am.
Neither Storm nor Eggs were banned for being non interactive combo decks. If you choose to believe Wizards when they cite their reasons for a banning, then both decks were banned for falling into previously established banning criterion. Note that Storm was fine until RtR provided it with a bit too much consistency allowing it to go off on turn three a bit too often. Eggs was simply a timing and logistics issue.
Now, I should probably point out that being non interactive makes it easier to go off on turn three unopposed. However, the point is that as far as I know Wizards has never said that they will ban combo decks solely for being non interactive. I may be wrong on this though, and I'm totally willing to own up to it if I am.
Like I said, you have to read the writing on the wall. They might not come out and say it to avoid being labeled biased...but their bans pretty much speak for themselves.
I'm sad to see this ban happen, because I don't think eggs was a very good deck. It was probably a tier-2 archetype, and I have never had a lot of trouble easily dispatching it in tournaments.
That said, as they mentioned, it was often the right course of action for an eggs player to just go to turns every single round and then take a 15-30 minute untimed turn and win. If I were playing the deck, I would have done that pretty much every single round.
Like I said, you have to read the writing on the wall. They might not come out and say it to avoid being labeled biased...but their bans pretty much speak for themselves.
Alternatively, it's probably better to quit crying that the sky is falling. References to children's stories aside, I don't think that two data points is enough to draw any real conclusions.
A) The deck wasn't the problem, but players who did not know what to do.
B) The ban doesn't remove the deck completely and might even make it slower when it is seen.
C) A couple of months we had too much combo. Now we have too little combo.
D) We want more variety and richness in a format, not less.
As a note, I never played eggs in my life and played against it several times, so no, don't try to pass me off as an eggs player.
Variety for the sake of variety is bad. Eggs is boring and unfun, as far as I am concerned it added nothing positive to the modern metagame. It actually detracted from my experience.
Alternatively, it's probably better to quit crying that the sky is falling. References to children's stories aside, I don't think that two data points is enough to draw any real conclusions.
Well we also have the original ban list as evidence too...
Well we also have the original ban list as evidence too...
Which includes cards from a host of archetypes. Then again, it does seem somewhat biased against combo decks so perhaps you're right. On the other hand, with Wizards having two ban announcements in a row, it's very easy to overreact.
I think the time issue wasn't solved. Eggs, while not competitive any more, is still playable in a weakened form, using Noxious Revival or Open the Vaults to sub Second Sunrise. It takes just ONE troll playing nerfed Eggs to drag a game 15 minutes past time, holding up the tournament for 1000+ other players.
With regards to actual gameplay, there is no more engine combo left in Modern. Storm and Eggs are dead. Elves just got Beck, but I think that isn't good enough.
So what effects will that have?
1) Counterspells go down. Every other combo deck in Modern can be dealt with by Aven Mindcensor or instant-speed removal.
2) Grave hate goes down. Aside from Melira Pod, none of the other combo decks in Modern use the graveyard. Not Twin, not Scapeshift, not Kiki Pod.
3) Pod and Tron go up. Those decks have bad Storm/Eggs matchups.
P.S. I can predict that someone will pipe up, "combo isn't dead". Read this and be educated on the differences between 2/3-card and engine (Storm) combo.
I'm kinda thinking that... that memory lapse is right.
If only because they left in faith's reward, which ... which means you can still play the deck but its just actually ... "slower".
As a non-modern player (don't throw anything) I do think of Modern as the format where the top decks will get bans.
Lastly... if they reprint counterspell at 2, it'll totally be against what they've been doing in standard the past year or so. . . not to say that they won't, but damn. I personally would consider just walking away from standard for two years or so till it was gone.
Which ultimately, I think banning is the only real solution to broken decks, because printing answers, have a rippling effect across all formats, if not done carefully.
2) Grave hate goes down. Aside from Melira Pod, none of the other combo decks in Modern use the graveyard. Not Twin, not Scapeshift, not Kiki Pod.
That's an interesting point, and I wonder if the fact that graveyard based decks won't be receiving splash hate would lead to them having a larger presence in the meta game. None of them are terribly powerful, but I do have a soft spot for doing degenerate things with my graveyard.
So what effects will that have?
1) Counterspells go down. Every other combo deck in Modern can be dealt with by Aven Mindcensor or instant-speed removal.
2) Grave hate goes down. Aside from Melira Pod, none of the other combo decks in Modern use the graveyard. Not Twin, not Scapeshift, not Kiki Pod.
3) Pod and Tron go up. Those decks have bad Storm/Eggs matchups.
P.S. I can predict that someone will pipe up, "combo isn't dead". Read this and be educated on the differences between 2/3-card and engine (Storm) combo.
I have a problem with number 1 because of number 3. Take a deck like UW Fae. It has a strong game against both tron and pod thanks in part to its heavy counterspells; also cards like Mistbind Clique.
I think there is more room for counterspells post combo bans than ever before. Eggs could just Silence, and Storm had a fist full of Pact of Negation. Coutnerspells were never really effective against those decks.
I don't really think the bans themselves would have been unhealthy if they had tried to slow down storm rather than kill it off entirely. Combined with the eggs ban it does seem a whole lot they are trying to remove engine combo from modern entirely rather than bring it in line with everything else.
Unhealthy. Eggs will still exist, it won't be a T1 deck anymore but it will be functional enough that one person can grief an entire tournament with it, just because they want to.
If time was really they issue they should have either banned the slow win conditions, forcing eggs to combo faster, or they should have changed the 5 turn rule to address the slowness issue permanently.
I think there is more room for counterspells post combo bans than ever before. Eggs could just Silence, and Storm had a fist full of Pact of Negation. Counterspells were never really effective against those decks.
Playing through 1 piece of hate is harder than through 0. This goes double for a deck where if you screw up once, you basically lose.
Eggs has Silence...so? You're not guaranteed to draw into it, it's a dead card when going off, and 1 Silence can't beat 2 counterspells (Dispel+Snapcaster counts).
Storm does not play Pacts. Not even in the sideboard. It beats counters by Pyromancer Ascension, Gigadrowse, or simply playing high-impact Storm cards like Empty the Warrens. Storm counts your opponent's spells too, so 1 counter means 1 extra damage with Grapeshot, but 2 extra Goblins with Warrens.
Playing through 1 piece of hate is harder than through 0. This goes double for a deck where if you screw up once, you basically lose.
Eggs has Silence...so? You're not guaranteed to draw into it, it's a dead card when going off, and 1 Silence can't beat 2 counterspells (Dispel+Snapcaster counts).
Storm does not play Pacts. Not even in the sideboard. It beats counters by Pyromancer Ascension, Gigadrowse, or simply playing high-impact Storm cards like Empty the Warrens. Storm counts your opponent's spells too, so 1 counter means 1 extra damage with Grapeshot, but 2 extra Goblins with Warrens.
I played Eggs for awhile because I thought it was one of the best decks in Modern (it really was, even if it wasn't broken), and I never thought it was that difficult to play through hate. It's usually just a matter of do they have it versus do you have it. Sometimes they beat you and sometimes they don't, it's mostly random assuming you know how to combo off correctly and the person you're playing against isn't stupid. That combined with the boring nature of the deck is what really turned me against Eggs-it's boring, it delays tournaments, and playing with or against it doesn't require a great deal of thought.
It is sort of hard to learn how to combo off correctly but that is more similar to learning how to solve certain kinds of math problems than it is to playing "Magic" in any traditional sense.
In the end it is pretty much the same explanation they gave for banning Top. If it adds excess time to matches and causes the 5 turns to take an overly needed amount of time then yes it is healthy for the format to ban the card. Do I want to see innovative decks like eggs viable? Absolutely they are great, but when single turns can take a majority of the match, then it isn't fair to the other players in the tournament. Look at MTGO as an example of what WotC thinks about people who play excessively complex decks that take an inordinate amount of time to execute.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
To post a comment, please login or register a new account.
This is incorrect, the deck loses consistency based on how much you dilute it with bad win conditions, when the win condition itself is an egg you only increase consistency. Other win conditions were not just included to grapeshot or disciple of the vault (which isn't good), you could also play awkward cards like laboratory maniac.
In order to make this deck win faster, it needs to not exist in it's current form. This banning hopefully accomplishes that.
The deck existed before Faith's Reward was printed so I am not sure how this ban will change the deck from its current form that much (I still played my old Eggs list before they printed Faith's Reward) it does slow the deck down as Faith's Reward costs 4 mana instead of 3, but has the upside of being one-sided and requiring little W
Also Open The Vaults is still legal as is Krark-Clan Ironworks
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
P.D.: REPRINT COUNTERSPELL
Have a problem with your first point. Holiday seemed like a pretty astute eggs player and his turns took excess of 15 minutes at the SD GP. That is all.
GB Rock
U Flooding Merfolk
RUG Delver Midrange
WU Monks
UW Tempo Geist
GW Bogle
GW Liege
UR Tron
B Vampires
Affinity
Legacy
Fish
Goblins
Burn
Reanimator
Dredge
Affinity
EDH
W Akroma
GBW Ghave
BRU Thrax
GR Ruric
I advocate for the elimination of the combo archetype in Modern. I believe it is degenerate and unfun by its very nature and will always limit design space and cause unnecessary bans.
The results of this poll are pretty clear. Most people don't like combos like eggs and storm in the format. Combo's like Twin are just fine. There is plenty of interaction, and there's no sitting around waiting while your opponent gestures or clicks like like Carrot Top on speed.
If you love eggs and storm type of decks, that's just fine. Legacy is the perfect format for you. Don't let the door hit you and all that.
Neither Storm nor Eggs were banned for being non interactive combo decks. If you choose to believe Wizards when they cite their reasons for a banning, then both decks were banned for falling into previously established banning criterion. Note that Storm was fine until RtR provided it with a bit too much consistency allowing it to go off on turn three a bit too often. Eggs was simply a timing and logistics issue.
Now, I should probably point out that being non interactive makes it easier to go off on turn three unopposed. However, the point is that as far as I know Wizards has never said that they will ban combo decks solely for being non interactive. I may be wrong on this though, and I'm totally willing to own up to it if I am.
Like I said, you have to read the writing on the wall. They might not come out and say it to avoid being labeled biased...but their bans pretty much speak for themselves.
That said, as they mentioned, it was often the right course of action for an eggs player to just go to turns every single round and then take a 15-30 minute untimed turn and win. If I were playing the deck, I would have done that pretty much every single round.
*DCI Rules Advisor*
Alternatively, it's probably better to quit crying that the sky is falling. References to children's stories aside, I don't think that two data points is enough to draw any real conclusions.
Variety for the sake of variety is bad. Eggs is boring and unfun, as far as I am concerned it added nothing positive to the modern metagame. It actually detracted from my experience.
Well we also have the original ban list as evidence too...
Which includes cards from a host of archetypes. Then again, it does seem somewhat biased against combo decks so perhaps you're right. On the other hand, with Wizards having two ban announcements in a row, it's very easy to overreact.
With regards to actual gameplay, there is no more engine combo left in Modern. Storm and Eggs are dead. Elves just got Beck, but I think that isn't good enough.
So what effects will that have?
1) Counterspells go down. Every other combo deck in Modern can be dealt with by Aven Mindcensor or instant-speed removal.
2) Grave hate goes down. Aside from Melira Pod, none of the other combo decks in Modern use the graveyard. Not Twin, not Scapeshift, not Kiki Pod.
3) Pod and Tron go up. Those decks have bad Storm/Eggs matchups.
P.S. I can predict that someone will pipe up, "combo isn't dead". Read this and be educated on the differences between 2/3-card and engine (Storm) combo.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
If only because they left in faith's reward, which ... which means you can still play the deck but its just actually ... "slower".
As a non-modern player (don't throw anything) I do think of Modern as the format where the top decks will get bans.
Lastly... if they reprint counterspell at 2, it'll totally be against what they've been doing in standard the past year or so. . . not to say that they won't, but damn. I personally would consider just walking away from standard for two years or so till it was gone.
Which ultimately, I think banning is the only real solution to broken decks, because printing answers, have a rippling effect across all formats, if not done carefully.
That's an interesting point, and I wonder if the fact that graveyard based decks won't be receiving splash hate would lead to them having a larger presence in the meta game. None of them are terribly powerful, but I do have a soft spot for doing degenerate things with my graveyard.
I have a problem with number 1 because of number 3. Take a deck like UW Fae. It has a strong game against both tron and pod thanks in part to its heavy counterspells; also cards like Mistbind Clique.
I think there is more room for counterspells post combo bans than ever before. Eggs could just Silence, and Storm had a fist full of Pact of Negation. Coutnerspells were never really effective against those decks.
Cardsphere MTG Draft Simulator
Cardsphere Blog - Original Content
Playing through 1 piece of hate is harder than through 0. This goes double for a deck where if you screw up once, you basically lose.
Eggs has Silence...so? You're not guaranteed to draw into it, it's a dead card when going off, and 1 Silence can't beat 2 counterspells (Dispel+Snapcaster counts).
Storm does not play Pacts. Not even in the sideboard. It beats counters by Pyromancer Ascension, Gigadrowse, or simply playing high-impact Storm cards like Empty the Warrens. Storm counts your opponent's spells too, so 1 counter means 1 extra damage with Grapeshot, but 2 extra Goblins with Warrens.
| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
I played Eggs for awhile because I thought it was one of the best decks in Modern (it really was, even if it wasn't broken), and I never thought it was that difficult to play through hate. It's usually just a matter of do they have it versus do you have it. Sometimes they beat you and sometimes they don't, it's mostly random assuming you know how to combo off correctly and the person you're playing against isn't stupid. That combined with the boring nature of the deck is what really turned me against Eggs-it's boring, it delays tournaments, and playing with or against it doesn't require a great deal of thought.
It is sort of hard to learn how to combo off correctly but that is more similar to learning how to solve certain kinds of math problems than it is to playing "Magic" in any traditional sense.