was this ban healthy or unhealthy, someone asked me this to fetch numbers, you are free to discuss, just stay civil:D.
i say it's fair, making eggs less consistent was a good idea. it will be played less, hence less tournament delays.
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Does -1 Deck with 10 Min turns make the format better or worse?
Personally I think it's probably worse because eventually more players would know when to scoop to it rather than make them play it all out.
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I think that it is healthy for the sake of tournament play, as 20 minute combo turns are ridiculous. I would consider the banning unnecessary with regard to the health of the format as a whole, however, as (as stated by the B&R announcement) the format itself is healthy.
Honestly, I don't think that it's particularly bad with regard to time when piloted by skilled players. I do think it's a pain when unskilled players or those unfamiliar with the deck are mulling over their every decision for 2+ minutes per iteration, and there's nothing tournament officials can do short of either Slow Play warnings (which only add time to the tournament) or having the DCI ban something.
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Personally I think it's probably worse because eventually more players would know when to scoop to it rather than make them play it all out.
Problem I have run into is that the moment of which you speak is often pretty deep into the turn. Particularly when you're facing someone who's not a wiz with the deck.
What do you mean with healthy?
Healthy in the context of a format basically doesn't care about players emotions towards a certain decktype, so that's not a criteria.
The deck wasn't that big of a factor in the metagame, so almost nothing will change except for maybe a few sideboardcards.
by healthy, i meant, was it a good idea or bad? will it affect the meta? however you interpret it.
Its understandable why the ban happened, but still a little upsetting.
Combo decks in modern are going to have to shift to having some type of control shell, like Scapeshift or the Tron Variants have. Its a shame that straight up combo decks seem to be getting pushed out of the format.
Here's hoping the Cascade based combos might some day strike it big!
The ban is healthy in that it does not decrease deck diversity outside of the deck it was aimed it. It is also healthy because it removed a logistical problem that resulted from Eggs being played at daylong competitive tournaments.
It is unhealthy in that midrange and aggro have a strong grip over the format, and combo decks can help break their clutches. There are replacements for Eggs that will fill the combo gap, but a) that will take time and b) they might not be as strong.
^ there is no answer to a mediocre player playing the deck in a slow fashion, just because he doesnt know the deck perfectly.
The deck itself was perfectly fine, it goes off a turn sooner than it should maybe, but it was by no means degenerate.
But 15 minutes turn definitly were, and no card print can fix that.
^ there is no answer to a mediocre player playing the deck in a slow fashion, just because he doesnt know the deck perfectly.
The deck itself was perfectly fine, it goes off a turn sooner than it should maybe, but it was by no means degenerate.
But 15 minutes turn definitly were, and no card print can fix that.
If its so easy for a mediocre player to Usurp a whole format by not knowing how to play perfectly, then there's probably a greater problem at hand.
If its so easy for a mediocre player to Usurp a whole format by not knowing how to play perfectly, then there's probably a greater problem at hand.
It was because on average, people playing the deck in tournaments consistently forced rounds to go 10-15 minutes longer than time, which delays the whole event by an hour or more, depending on the number of rounds.
Unhealthy. Eggs will still exist, it won't be a T1 deck anymore but it will be functional enough that one person can grief an entire tournament with it, just because they want to.
If time was really they issue they should have either banned the slow win conditions, forcing eggs to combo faster, or they should have changed the 5 turn rule to address the slowness issue permanently.
Unhealthy. Eggs will still exist, it won't be a T1 deck anymore but it will be functional enough that one person can grief an entire tournament with it, just because they want to.
If time was really they issue they should have either banned the slow win conditions, forcing eggs to combo faster, or they should have changed the 5 turn rule to address the slowness issue permanently.
It is better for Wizards to err on the side of the deck's survival than it is to err on the side of punitive banhammers. Banning Faith's Reward on top of Sunrise would have not only killed the deck, but also sent a clear message to Modern players that combo is not welcome. Wizards has repeatedly signaled that this is not its intent. It wants to create a diverse format with many different archetypes present.
Eggs will still see a lot less play, and tournaments will be healthier for it. Meanwhile, other decks can have access to cards like Reshape and Lotus Bloom and even Pyrite Spellbomb. It's the best win-win ban that we could hope for.
Unhealthy. Eggs will still exist, it won't be a T1 deck anymore but it will be functional enough that one person can grief an entire tournament with it, just because they want to.
If time was really they issue they should have either banned the slow win conditions, forcing eggs to combo faster, or they should have changed the 5 turn rule to address the slowness issue permanently.
good point, and as tomrod said, they should have created a card that can hose eggs(GY hate).
or a card that could make it faster.
I voted "healthy," in the sense that it won't really hurt diversity. The better term would have been, perhaps, "not UNhealthy" or "neutral." It fixes an important logistical problem without affecting the actual deck diversity of the format.
Unhealthy. Eggs will still exist, it won't be a T1 deck anymore but it will be functional enough that one person can grief an entire tournament with it, just because they want to.
If time was really they issue they should have either banned the slow win conditions, forcing eggs to combo faster, or they should have changed the 5 turn rule to address the slowness issue permanently.
Not sure I buy this line of thinking. I am by no means a magic historian, but I can't ever remembering a deck that routinely produced 15 minute turns. MAYBE High Tide? When you go 20 years, and only run into ONE deck that messes with the 5 turn rule, it's reasonable to ban the deck instead of changing the rules. Now, if 5 more decks pop up and cause a similar problem, well, we can talk about changing the rules.
good point, and as tomrod said, they should have created a card that can hose eggs(GY hate).
or a card that could make it faster.
There's no card that can "force" eggs to play faster. Unless they printed a card that said "If target opponents next turn take's longer than 5 minutes, they lose the game." Which, while it would be pretty hysterical, probably doesn't fit within the framework of magic's rules lol.
The ban was fine. The deck brought more bad than good into the format. The matches were unwatchable so coverage for huge events would be ruined, the deck was horrible to play against IRL and it was a huge headache due to time required to finish after going to turns.
I was at a PTQ a couple of months ago and the guy playing eggs was literally still comboing off 20 minutes after time was called. Sorry that kind of gameplay doesnt add to the format and its not needed.
It was good in the sense that it was a hated deck due to the deck taking 20 minute turns, but it is bad because it perpetuates the stigma that Modern has, where the top decks will always get banned.
The stigma is further reinforced by them not unbanning anything.
It was unhealthy in the regard that Eggs did represent a flaw in the MTR with regards to extra turns, it is still possible to create a deck that can take long turns without it being considered slowplay (see the Modern 4 Horsemen variant or even Eggs before Faith's Reward) and that represented a bigger issue than the deck itself.
It was healthy in that for the time being it will stop tournament rounds from going way past time, a better banning would have been Pyrite Spellbomb if they wanted to speed up the deck
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It is better for Wizards to err on the side of the deck's survival than it is to err on the side of punitive banhammers. Banning Faith's Reward on top of Sunrise would have not only killed the deck, but also sent a clear message to Modern players that combo is not welcome. Wizards has repeatedly signaled that this is not its intent. It wants to create a diverse format with many different archetypes present.
Eggs will still see a lot less play, and tournaments will be healthier for it. Meanwhile, other decks can have access to cards like Reshape and Lotus Bloom and even Pyrite Spellbomb. It's the best win-win ban that we could hope for.
In the absence of cheep powerful counter magic and lands which can answer combo there is no combo deck which allows for diversity. They are either not really combo decks (IE Pod decks which are equal parts attackers and equal parts combo) not very good (Twin/vengence) or are powerful (eggs/storm). This means that they ban all the combo or they print better hate. Since they CLEARLY aren't going to do that modern will suffer and die with the opposite problems the old extended had.
good point, and as tomrod said, they should have created a card that can hose eggs(GY hate).
or a card that could make it faster.
That would work too, infact I hold out hope that they do, and it allows them to unban Second Sunrise. I don't see them printing a Tormod's Crypt with Hexproof and then actually going back and unbanning something though.
Not sure I buy this line of thinking. I am by no means a magic historian, but I can't ever remembering a deck that routinely produced 15 minute turns. MAYBE High Tide? When you go 20 years, and only run into ONE deck that messes with the 5 turn rule, it's reasonable to ban the deck instead of changing the rules. Now, if 5 more decks pop up and cause a similar problem, well, we can talk about changing the rules.
High Tide would be the biggest named one, but plenty of decks can do it. They just don't tend to be good decks so they don't win all that often. The Eggs issue though was an issue with the rules, not an issue with the decks power. The fact that they left the deck just functional enough to still act as a griefing deck in the format is what makes the whole thing ridiculous.
healthy: There is still tons of variety in the format, now with more timely tournaments to boot. A few whiny scrubs who can't play decks other than combo will complain, but screw them. They are clogging up these forums and should be ignored at this point.
don't listen to the naysayers; this format is fun and varied and is only getting better. I look forward to playing it again without Eggs around to bore me.
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i say it's fair, making eggs less consistent was a good idea. it will be played less, hence less tournament delays.
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Thanks Argentleman;)
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Does -1 Deck with 10 Min turns make the format better or worse?
Personally I think it's probably worse because eventually more players would know when to scoop to it rather than make them play it all out.
Yes - Time was a major issue. If people could play the deck efficiently, it wouldn't have been banned.
No - Combo is lacking in a severe way from modern and it shows from the results with almost all of them being midrange decks.
Modern Warp / UR Control / UR Storm / Naya Breachshift / ElectroBalance
Solidarity / Lands / Sneak and Show / Grixis Delver / Reanimator / Belcher / Storm / Dredge
Honestly, I don't think that it's particularly bad with regard to time when piloted by skilled players. I do think it's a pain when unskilled players or those unfamiliar with the deck are mulling over their every decision for 2+ minutes per iteration, and there's nothing tournament officials can do short of either Slow Play warnings (which only add time to the tournament) or having the DCI ban something.
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- GW Birthing Pod(?)
Legacy:
- UWR Delver
Problem I have run into is that the moment of which you speak is often pretty deep into the turn. Particularly when you're facing someone who's not a wiz with the deck.
CG
I would never scoop to eggs. I've seen players take 10-15 minute turns and not go off.
this ban was healthy because the deck was boring and unfun. Magic is supposed to be fun.
by healthy, i meant, was it a good idea or bad? will it affect the meta? however you interpret it.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Combo decks in modern are going to have to shift to having some type of control shell, like Scapeshift or the Tron Variants have. Its a shame that straight up combo decks seem to be getting pushed out of the format.
Here's hoping the Cascade based combos might some day strike it big!
It is unhealthy in that midrange and aggro have a strong grip over the format, and combo decks can help break their clutches. There are replacements for Eggs that will fill the combo gap, but a) that will take time and b) they might not be as strong.
I would have liked to see an answer printed, rather than a ban
The deck itself was perfectly fine, it goes off a turn sooner than it should maybe, but it was by no means degenerate.
But 15 minutes turn definitly were, and no card print can fix that.
If its so easy for a mediocre player to Usurp a whole format by not knowing how to play perfectly, then there's probably a greater problem at hand.
It was because on average, people playing the deck in tournaments consistently forced rounds to go 10-15 minutes longer than time, which delays the whole event by an hour or more, depending on the number of rounds.
UWRUWR Midrange/GeistRWU
Retired
GWBMelira PodBWG
If time was really they issue they should have either banned the slow win conditions, forcing eggs to combo faster, or they should have changed the 5 turn rule to address the slowness issue permanently.
It is better for Wizards to err on the side of the deck's survival than it is to err on the side of punitive banhammers. Banning Faith's Reward on top of Sunrise would have not only killed the deck, but also sent a clear message to Modern players that combo is not welcome. Wizards has repeatedly signaled that this is not its intent. It wants to create a diverse format with many different archetypes present.
Eggs will still see a lot less play, and tournaments will be healthier for it. Meanwhile, other decks can have access to cards like Reshape and Lotus Bloom and even Pyrite Spellbomb. It's the best win-win ban that we could hope for.
good point, and as tomrod said, they should have created a card that can hose eggs(GY hate).
or a card that could make it faster.
Thanks Argentleman;)
WB Teysa token aggroBW (retired)
MAKING (Onmath, Numot, maybe something in Esper)
Not sure I buy this line of thinking. I am by no means a magic historian, but I can't ever remembering a deck that routinely produced 15 minute turns. MAYBE High Tide? When you go 20 years, and only run into ONE deck that messes with the 5 turn rule, it's reasonable to ban the deck instead of changing the rules. Now, if 5 more decks pop up and cause a similar problem, well, we can talk about changing the rules.
There's no card that can "force" eggs to play faster. Unless they printed a card that said "If target opponents next turn take's longer than 5 minutes, they lose the game." Which, while it would be pretty hysterical, probably doesn't fit within the framework of magic's rules lol.
I was at a PTQ a couple of months ago and the guy playing eggs was literally still comboing off 20 minutes after time was called. Sorry that kind of gameplay doesnt add to the format and its not needed.
The stigma is further reinforced by them not unbanning anything.
It was healthy in that for the time being it will stop tournament rounds from going way past time, a better banning would have been Pyrite Spellbomb if they wanted to speed up the deck
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It's like people don't read the reasoning for the ban...
OT: Kicking the teeth in of a deck that makes tournaments go over time on every round is always healthy.
In the absence of cheep powerful counter magic and lands which can answer combo there is no combo deck which allows for diversity. They are either not really combo decks (IE Pod decks which are equal parts attackers and equal parts combo) not very good (Twin/vengence) or are powerful (eggs/storm). This means that they ban all the combo or they print better hate. Since they CLEARLY aren't going to do that modern will suffer and die with the opposite problems the old extended had.
Wizards in relation to modern.
"The bannings will continue until attendance improves."
Not sure if trolling or just very stupid.:fry:
That would work too, infact I hold out hope that they do, and it allows them to unban Second Sunrise. I don't see them printing a Tormod's Crypt with Hexproof and then actually going back and unbanning something though.
High Tide would be the biggest named one, but plenty of decks can do it. They just don't tend to be good decks so they don't win all that often. The Eggs issue though was an issue with the rules, not an issue with the decks power. The fact that they left the deck just functional enough to still act as a griefing deck in the format is what makes the whole thing ridiculous.
don't listen to the naysayers; this format is fun and varied and is only getting better. I look forward to playing it again without Eggs around to bore me.
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