Bitterblossom, killing the Faeries Deck
Wild Nactal, killing Zoo
Sword of the Meek, killing Thopter/Sword based Controldecks
Seething Song, killing ritual Storm
chrome mox, huriting control decks again
non of those cards break the t4 rule nor are the resulting decks too strong
The criteria for bannings are:
1. They allow turn 4 but not consistent turn 3 combo decks.
2. No decks were allowed that dominated a seven-year or four-year Extended format that only included Modern-legal sets. This is subject to change though if they think it would increase the diveristy of the format.
3. Cards that are strong in vintage are too strong for modern.
4. Cards that are powerful in legacy are safer on the banlist than legal in modern.
5. Cards that are too dominant/efficient and that that push other strategies out of the format are better banned.
Bitterblossom is 2
Wild Nacatl falls under 5
Sword of the Meek is 4
Seething song is 1
Chrome Mox is 1 and 4
and for the record Jace is 3 and 4
As a preemptive response to the inevitable "but what about snapcaster and bob, they are powerful in vintage!"
Yes they are, but you are missing one valuable key bit of information. Their power is directly proportional to the power of the cards in the format.
Drawing an Ancestral Recall or Tinker from bob or flashing one back with snapcaster is far more powerful than flipping a tarmogoyf or flashing back a mana leak.
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Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
Electromancer gives every ritual a virtual +R. The difference is players can interact with the electromancer, which is a good thing.
Other than that, and to be really honest, who likes a storm based combo deck? Some players, yes, but I'm pretty sure there are more that don't and prefer that out of the format to have a better experience playing it.
The fact that there was so many people playing storm, specially on mtgo, is that it's very cheap. I've spoken to many of those players and they confirmed this theory, many saying goyf is too expensive for them.
The problem was that Jund was statistically showing itself to be a problem. It wasn't one of the best decks- it WAS the best deck. It showed up in the finals of nearly every major event, and has won far more PTQs than any other deck.
Here were the two interrelated things keeping it from getting oppressive:
a) Price Point. Jund is super expensive. This kept it away from lower level play (and indeed, the meta seemed to get healthier the further away from the PT you got.) If Jund were 1/3 the cost, I suspect people would have caught on to just how good it was in the format.
b) Margin of "best"-ness. It was the best deck- but it had bad matchups and was not so much better than other deck options as to truly close off the metagame. But it was definitely not doing positive things to the format.
Like I said in my previus post, Burn and RG Tron have a very good matchup against Jund. Played Jund since T2 until it became 4c Jund with RTR, so I kinda know it When players stoped to play Finks to play Lingering Souls and more fetchlands and Shocklands the even Burn matchup became worst. Pre-Deathrite Shaman, the Storm matchup wasn't so good either. Jund has a hard time interacting with the stack, all the deck had was graveyad hate and discard, but it was a turn too slow most of the time. It gained good cards in the form of Abrupt Decay (to combat Ascension with maindeck cards) and Rakdos Charm (useful in a lot of matchups, cheap and effective), and also gain speed and GY disruption in Deathrite Shaman. The RG Tron matchup still is hard, but at least you can Sowing Salt in turn 3 with Shaman. Those are decks that have a good matchup against Jund. UW Tempo (Angels?) has a good matchup I heard, but havent really played it since it wasnt so popular here when I Junded.
The solution wasnt ban BBE, I would had Chrome Mox unbanned instead. The Mox hasn't been banned in Extended, Legacy or T2, so why in Modern? Neither Jund or Storm would play it (Maybe Infect), so it could help the other decks. It also enables Dragon Stompy (another deck that Pros dont respect), capable of turn 2 Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. Wizards needs to understand that Jund is not about BBE, its about a 4 color pile of good cards. Is there a difference between playing the top 10 cards of the format in your deck or the 2° to the 11°? Jund can easily play the next best thing. That's because:
a) Fetch+Shocklands
b) Deathrite Shaman to fix, accelerate and regain life from a)
c) A format that doesnt punish this manabase
If no deck could face Jund succesfully its because of the other bannings. You have to mantein an even powerlevel in the Format. You either unban or ban cards. Clearly, banning cards and lowering power level aproaches the format to T2 and unbanning makes the format more Legacy alike. Both balanced options, but I was expecting a format like the old Extended: good cards, some power level, some speed and non-rotating, not a big T2.
Edit: and for the record, GW Kibler could be like Legacy Maverick if it has access to GSZ. But Wizards banned it because they dont want green decks to have such versatility. That's another card Jund can't play
I believe WoTC's new policy is to make sure that every color can enjoy the exciting gameplay mechanic of making undercosted dudes and then turning them sideways. Clearly the future of magic.
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Just because something is played in Legacy or Vintage means absolutely nothing about the card being played in Modern by itself.
The same argument can be said about almost any card in magic.
"Is Skullclamp powerful on it's own? No, if there are no creatures around, Skullclamp is a pretty fair card. Sure it sees play in Vintage and is banned in Legacy, but that means absolutely nothing about the card being played in Modern by itself. Skullclamp is fine to uban."
I just thought I'd add that you need to look at the specific card when you make the comparisons. As I said in my other post, Snappy and Bob are fine because of the relative power of the cards in the format. If Ancestral Recall was in modern, Snapcaster Mage's powerlevel increases by a wide margin. When looking at Skullclamp though, you need to take into account that cards like Lingering Souls are in the format. Sword of the Meek would be far less powerful in a format without Thopter Foundry, etc.
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Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
There has never been a land that enters the battlefield untapped unconditionally and taps for two colors unconditionally. That would be strictly better than a basic land
Just because something is played in Legacy or Vintage means absolutely nothing about the card being played in Modern by itself.
Sure it does when you are worried about power level. If you are trying to create a format between Standard and Legacy and you have a deck being played and competing in the higher level format, that is bad for the format you are trying to create. That means that decks power level is too high for the created format and needs to be brought down to the proper level to the rest of the decks.
Sure it does when you are worried about power level. If you are trying to create a format between Standard and Legacy and you have a deck being played and competing in the higher level format, that is bad for the format you are trying to create. That means that decks power level is too high for the created format and needs to be brought down to the proper level to the rest of the decks.
Gifts Ungiven is restricted in Vintage, but is the core of a Tier 1.5 deck in Modern. Why? The card pools are different.
Electromancer gives every ritual a virtual +R. The difference is players can interact with the electromancer, which is a good thing.
Other than that, and to be really honest, who likes a storm based combo deck? Some players, yes, but I'm pretty sure there are more that don't and prefer that out of the format to have a better experience playing it.
The fact that there was so many people playing storm, specially on mtgo, is that it's very cheap. I've spoken to many of those players and they confirmed this theory, many saying goyf is too expensive for them.
A lot of people I know enjoy Storm, but they didn't have to ban Seething Song to weaken it, Electromancer would have been fine and by banning Song they killed off Hive Mind
Storm is a fun and unique deck, as is Eggs, Hive Mind, and Ad Nauseum Lightning Storm
This ban also killed off Dragonstorm
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
I just went through the entire Modern banned list. There are currently 30 cards on it. Out of those 30, maybe half should definitely be banned because they are just so degenerate.
The rest? I can only scratch my head and wonder what the DCI is thinking.
The only cards that should be on that list are the ones that are so clearly broken like the artifact lands, cards that allow turn 1 or 2 drop big creature and kill you wins, cards that allow ridiculous infinite combos and so on.
Not Mox
Not Kitty
Not BBE
Not JtMS
Not Ponder
Not Preordain
Not MM
Not Visions
Not SS
I could go on but I'll only make myself sick.
The format should be allowed to breathe for crying out loud. Give control a chance to be competitive. Let Zoo be a deck again. Let people play Storm if they want to. For crying out loud, what's next? Eggs?
Not wanting this format to be Legacy lite is one thing. Turning into Standard on caffeine is something entirely different.
They banned Nactl because they wanted people to play other aggro decks besides Zoo. So what happened?
They stopped playing Zoo and no other aggro decks have taken its place.
End result? Abysmal failure AND, in spite of this, Nactl is still on the banned list.
Yeah, cause Affinity, Bant, Merfolk, Boros, and Infect = "no other aggro decks".
Aggro is very healthy, FAR healthier than if aggro was "Play Nactl, or don't bother playing aggro"
For that alone I can't possibly have any respect for the decision making process of the DCI because the literally blew it on that one and won't even correct their mistake.
Then you must have plenty of respect for DCI cause you're completely wrong saying aggro does not exist in Modern. The last two Modern events I went to were won by aggro decks.
Jace and SFM. These were hasty preemptive bans because they were afraid. What they forgot about Jace is that while Jund was a deck, he wasn't even played because he wasn't that good. It wasn't until Jund rotated out that he became playable. He should have never been banned from the start. But now it's too late because Jund will be a shell of what it was.
Jace and SFM are absurdly broken, and absolutely belong on the Modern ban list. Watch the Pro Player interviews when Modern was announced. To the last one they all agree Jace should be banned. If Jace was unbanned, he would absolutely be run as a 4 of in every single blue deck. Just like he was in Standard.
As for SFM, he's even MORE busted in Modern than he was in Standard since he could fetch up all the swords and Jitte. He would dominate the entire format. Every modern Top 8 would have 32 copies of SFM. That's not a healthy format.
Chrome Mox is a joke. Seriously? How much faster is this format going to be because of this card? For one thing, very few decks want to play it. And those decks are nowhere near the top of the totem pole right now. Maybe unbanning it would make them, oh, I don't know, a little more competitive?
It will make them 1 turn faster. Which pushes a lot of T4 decks into T3 decks. It also makes Affinity too powerful. Oh wait, I forgot, there's no aggro in Modern.
If I'm wrong, please show me the blue based control decks that are tearing up this format.
So the health of a format is determined by how powerful Blue is? OK.
Visions is another one that would have given control a little extra gas that it needed. How about instead of banning BBE, they unbanned this and made control more competitive?
Because Jund would run Visions and cast it for free off BBE. All Visions does is make the dominant deck EVEN BETTER. With BBE gone, I can see a case for Visions getting unbanned in the future.
Moving on to decks that have been outright told "We don't want you being played" ...
Yes, Modern does not want T2-T3 wins off Dredge, or to devolve into the eternal format of Caw Blade mirrors. That's a GOOD thing. And Storm is quite viable, replacement lists have already sprung up. Have you read the Storm forums?
If I were going to play Modern, which I no longer have any intentions of doing, I'd probably play Tron. I think with all the decks that have either been neutered or outright destroyed, I think Tron is very well positioned right now. I wouldn't touch Jund with a 20 foot poll.
If you no longer have any intentions of playing Modern, the why do you care what the banlist is, and why are you posting in the Modern subforum?
The banlist has made me even more excited to play Modern. You have a more level playing field, new midrange decks will start taking off, Control will get a boost (I'm liking MBC myself), and there's hopefully a lot less of sitting down and watching an opponent play Magic with himself for 10 minutes to combo off his Storm deck.
Eventually, what's going to happen (because we haven't seen the last of the bannings in this format, not by a long shot) is that we're going to see fewer and fewer decks played (no, not more, look at Zoo and how that failed) and this will become a format that won't be much different from current Standard. You'll have maybe 8 to 10 decks and that will be it.
Not even remotely true. Bringing Jund down in power opened up several midrange strategies that were previously simply outclassed by Jund. It makes the format MORE diverse
If you want a rich and rewarding format that is diverse and fun to play, go play Legacy.
Oh yeah, good old "Have a FoW in hand or lose to any number of T1 combo decks" Legacy. What a rich and rewarding format. The only thing rich about Legacy are the people who fork over the money to play it.
Modern is nothing like Legacy, and that's a GOOD thing. Modern is fresh, growing, innovative, and affordable. Legacy is stale, dying, boring, and uber expensive.
Not Mox
Not Kitty
Not BBE
Not JtMS
Not Ponder
Not Preordain
Not MM
Not Visions
Not SS
Mox speeds up affinity and speed up combo. Directly contrary to the stated goals of the format
Nactly makes Zoo simply outclasse every other aggro deck, resulting in a much less diverse format
JtMS, that's not even a raitonal thing to suggest being unbanned
Ponder and Preordain easily shave a turn or 2 off combo decks, and would make them the clear dominant deck in the format
Mental Misstep? Really? A Legacy player who cannot see how broken that card is?
Visions will probably be unbanned now that Jund can't cast it for free
Seething Song made Storm more consitent and faster than the stated intentions for the format.
You seem to be pissed that Modern isn't "Legacy Lite". It was never meant to be. If you want stupid busted T1 combos and an entire format held together by a single card, play Legacy, have a ball. But complaining that Modern isn't "broken enough" is ridiculous. Don't jump on the "we hate change" bandwagon without putting some thought into what the overall format is trying to achieve and how the bans play into that.
If you don't like that format, then fine, don't play Modern. It wasn't made for you.
There is no aggro in the format because there is no nactal in the format.
So Affinity is not aggro? OK. And Boros is a deck, I won an event with it. Granted, a small one, but still.
A) Affinity cant run chrome mox it's horribad for them.
So a 0 cost artifact doesn't help Affinity? Have you ever played the deck? It turns Chrome Mox into mana producing artifact without having to imprint a card. It's crazy broken in that deck, it's pure mana accell with zero drawback.
Your boundless optimism is inspiring. Unfortunately I feel that banning BBE will be IDENTICAL to the banning of nactal. No BBE no midrange.
So banning nactly made several aggro deck possible, so banning BBE will kill midrange? Right.
Here's a little test: There have been several time in MTG's history where tournamanet attendance dropped significantly, players were leaving the game, and MTg was on a downturn. When were those times?
When there was a clearly dominant deck that everyone played.
When you want to grow a format, you try to make as many deck choices viable as possible. Having a single best aggro deck or a single best combo deck are NOT good things.
I'm not saying Modern is perfect, but I think it's a much healthier format than the knee jerk reactions people are throwing out there.
You have very little knowledge of Legacy if you think Legacy is a have Force Of Will or lose, the fact that the meta is dominated by tempo, midrange, and control decks at the moment is healthier than Modern's meta of Combo and Midrange decks
And those tempo and midrange decks lose to Belcher or TEPS or ANT unless they are packing Force of Will. That one card keeps the entire format from collapsing in on itself, That's not a healthy format. At all.
JtMS is a reasonable target tobe unbanned
I'm sorry, but that statement single handedly undermines any credibility you could have in this discussion.
Let's start by talking about what WotC wants. Here's a passage cribbed from Wikipedia:
Traditionally, Aggro was seen as advantaged over Control, Control advantaged over Combo, and Combo advantaged over Aggro.[41] Wizards of the Coast has sought to make high-casting cost spells more powerful than in the early days of Magic, and have also wanted to play up creature combat more - an aggressive deck should have to worry about blocking and opposing creatures even from Control and Combo decks.[41] To that end, R&D member Zac Hill described an ideal metagame structured like so:
[Aggro] < [Midrange] < [Ramp and Combo] < [Control and Disruptive Aggro] < [Aggro] ...[41]
Each of these 4 buckets would ideally occupy around 25% of a given metagame. In Hill's definition, Aggro refers most specifically to the fastest creature decks built to punish slow starts, ponderous Control decks, and aggressive decks who've substituted out damage for disruption. A modern iteration of such a deck is the 2012 Standard Zombie deck, utilising resilient and cheap creatures such as Gravecrawler. Midrange decks in this definition are slower creature-based decks who trump the speed of fast aggro with better quality from their somewhat more expensive spells, an Example of which is the modern Jund deck that utilises the card advantage from creatures like Bloodbraid Elf and its Cascade mechanic. (Both of these would likely be considered "Aggro" in the traditional definition.) "Ramp" and "Combo" are conceptually similar as noted above; while the combo deck might seek to set up a combination of 2 or 3 cards for a powerful, game-changing effect, the ramp deck instead focuses on building mana as fast as possible and then casting game-changing yet expensive spells, or taking advantage of certain interactions that require the ability to supply a large manabase. An example of this last type is Valakut, the Molten Pinnacle based ramp decks. A midrange deck often doesn't have the sheer speed to stop ramp or combo from either casting a huge spell or "going off" with the combo. Control decks can counter or otherwise answer the single big threat ramp decks and control decks provide while winning the long game. Similarly, "disruptive aggro" (equivalent to Aggro-Control in the classic archetypes above) can also stop the single threat Combo and Ramp offer while focusing on winning faster. The 2011 card Delver of Secrets[41] is the pinnacle of a modern Disruptive-Aggro deck.
And here is the relevant parts of the ban announcement:
While the rest of the format is quite diverse, the dominance of Jund is making it less so overall. The DCI looked to ban a card. We wanted a card that top players consistently played four copies of in Jund, but ideally was less played in other top Modern decks. That would give the best chance of creating a more balanced metagame. The card that best fits our criteria is Bloodbraid Elf.
The DCI's other primary goal for Modern is to not have top tier decks that frequently win on turn three (or earlier). Looking at the results of the recent tournaments, Storm is not the most played deck, but it is among the top tier of decks. Four of the players to get at least 18 points at Pro Tour Return to Ravnica were playing Storm, and Olivier Ruel had a Top 8 performance at Grand Prix Lyon playing Storm. On Magic Online, Storm is the second-most-frequent high-finishing deck in Modern events, at 11.42%, behind only Jund. These results indicate that, while far from dominant, Storm is a top tier deck.
Looking at the results of games, turn-three wins are frequent for Storm, contrary to the DCI's stated goals for the format. The DCI looked for a card that was very important to the turn-three wins but not one of the cards that make this deck unique. We decided Seething Song is the best choice. Even with no other mana acceleration, one can cast Seething Song on turn three and it gives a net acceleration of +2 mana. While there are other options for fast mana, none appear as efficient and reliable on turn three as Seething Song.
Given these two passages, I think that the ban on Seething Song is about as cut and dry as it gets. WotC thought that Storm was winning too quickly. I think it's okay to speculate that other fast combos were left alone because they're not as difficult to interact with. It may be that WotC is saying that they do not want to have combos in the format that require a counterspell to stop.
Now here I've prepared a little chart to help visualize the state of modern. (The percentages are approximations and the color bands do not relate to decks on a 1 to 1 basis. If anyone is inspired to create a more accurate version of my chart feel free to knock yourself out.)
Chart of Decks in the Modern Meta
My interpretation:
This is how I interpret the proven section of the Modern forums here at MTGS.
Jund is the only mid-range deck. I counted 7 decks that I'd put in the ramp/combo bucket, 2 control decks and 4 aggro decks.
I interpret this as Jund being "format-warping".
1. Note that there aren't any other mid-range decks. Jund is so dominant that it has pushed all of the others out.
2. The reason Modern is so over-run with combo? Jund. When the format is dominated by a mid-range deck the proper meta play is to come to the tournament with a ramp or combo deck.
3. Aggro enjoys a pretty decent match-up against combo. A dominant mid-range deck like Jund would normally hate out a lot of the aggro decks but Jund has itself been limited by the number of combo decks being played. Jund's 'share' of the meta basically isn't as oppressive as its power level suggests that it should be. Basically the proliferation of combo leads to openings for aggro.
4. What about control? I think control has too many variables to control. First of all their weakest matchup hasn't been hated out of the meta, there are still enough aggro decks to cause problems for them. Second - the number of different combo decks and WotCs trend away from absolute counters (e.g. counter target creature spell, counter target non-creature spell, etc...) Third, Jund again. With Dark Confidant and BBE Jund had enough card advantage to overwhelm control decks. Regardless of your thoughts on this, the fact that control is so under-represented in a meta that seems primed for them to dominate points to the existence of at least one factor preventing them from taking charge. (Jund)
I think that the BBE ban makes it a bit easier for Control to cope with Jund, and the Seething Song ban makes it easier for everyone who isn't Storm, but Control should benefit from that banning as well as it should allow control to run a more focused (more effective) denial package. If the changes are effective then Combo will probably tick up in popularity for a brief time before control decks start to gain some share. If the meta eventually settles into a state where archetypes are represented more evenly then the bans should be considered a success.
Maybe I'm a little naive, but this thread seems rather pointless for the time being. We have two topics of potential "discussion." The first one being the disccussion of BBE and SS. This, first off cannot be accurately addressed given how new the changes are and that we have no hard data on their metagame impact. Not that it would matter, given that they happened, they will not un-happen no matter how much huffing and puffing goes on. And will just lead to the same stubborn infighting over and over.
Shhh. That's what the last thread was. We in fight constantly it's the nature of message boards on the internet.
Anyway Props to Illinest for the fancy graph and reasonable explanations. I don't agree with all of them, but they bring up some good discussion
Quote from Illinest »
2. The reason Modern is so over-run with combo? Jund. When the format is dominated by a mid-range deck the proper meta play is to come to the tournament with a ramp or combo deck.
I don't know if I agree with this. Combo is so successful because modern does not currently have many of the tools needed to fight the variety of combo decks out there. You bring this up in a later point about how Control does not have the general answers it needs. Combo players just gamble that people won't have an adequate sideboard for their particular deck.
4. What about control? I think control has too many variables to control. First of all their weakest matchup hasn't been hated out of the meta, there are still enough aggro decks to cause problems for them. Second - the number of different combo decks and WotCs trend away from absolute counters (e.g. counter target creature spell, counter target non-creature spell, etc...) Third, Jund again. With Dark Confidant and BBE Jund had enough card advantage to overwhelm control decks. Regardless of your thoughts on this, the fact that control is so under-represented in a meta that seems primed for them to dominate points to the existence of at least one factor preventing them from taking charge. (Jund)
Yes yes yes! Here we completely agree. Basically control is currently lacking the tools to be general enough. Answers to threats in modern are either very situational or very costly. So why bother playing answers when its just better to play threats? Aggro threats like affinity, or Combo threats that are difficult to be hated.
The biggest problem most people I know have with modern is that its far more reliant on the sideboard than any other format. While stuff such as affinity or infect aren't combo decks themselves, you have to hate them out like combo decks. This is true for the multitude of combo decks that often need very different answers for the threats they posed. Realistically you can tune your SB for about 2 or 3 different matchups, and then just hope that you dodge anything you aren't ready for.
Having to rely on your SB sucks. The games feel less skill intensive and exciting. It devolves into did I get my SB cards? Did my opponent pack the right type of hate?
This is modern's biggest difficulty to overcome, well that and the poor stigma of being a format that Wizards are overly ban happy with. You guys can and obviously will disagree with many of the things I say, but modern has the stigma of being a banhappy and unstable format (for now) and its one where games feel more out of your control compared to other formats.
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Modern: UWUW TronUW
Legacy: WDeath N TaxesW CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Ok, it's been a day and the fallout is still all over the place. I have a few points I'd like to share:
1. While I fully understand why BBE was banned, it makes me sad that the metagame wasn't able to adapt quickly enough to get to that next stage in its evolution. I was really looking forward to seeing Jund being challenged by Geist, Snapcaster Twin, and Boros Aggro. Typically, I don't support bannings unless the format consists solely of Top Tier Deck vs. Anti-Top Tier Deck. While it may have appeared for a bit that the format was going to turn into Jund vs. Anti-Jund, I don't believe that's the way the format was evolving.
2. Seething Song got banned because without Jund being rampant, WotC predicted Storm would come back strong. This was probably a fair prediction, although with the rise of Geist and UW decks, along with the breakup of Jund into three decks all utilizing hand disruption, I think Storm would not have been the dominant force they predicted. I'm also aware that WotC was using data from MTG Online regarding Storm. Personally, I believe they should have the online and paper games separate from each other; from what I've seen, MTGO is a pretty bad model and its randomization doesn't reflect real-life trends. I mean, when I look at the randomization and think to myself, "Apprentice randomized better than this," there's a major problem.
3. Writing this, I'm suddenly reminded of something Ed Severson (old school Vintage player - made Ankh Sligh and evolved Sui Black to what it was up until Odyssey block) said to me a long time ago - if aggro isn't playable in a format, it's not a healthy format. It seems WotC is seeing this as well. Yeah, you could call Jund midrange aggro, and Affinity definitely was aggro, but everything else that was consistently t8'ing was tempo, ramp, or combo with a tiny bit of control mixed in. With so many different options for tempo and combo, having so few options for control and aggro really doesn't supply for a healthy metagame. The breaking up of Jund may not be a terrible thing, as we'll be seeing Jund, Junk, and BUG instead of just Jund. Hopefully WotC's decision will cause the metagame to be more on the level and less tilted toward combo and midrange.
@Seething Song: some people still seem to have problems to understand why this ban was bad for the format, or more precisly for the way people percive the format (Tormods post sums it up pretty much).
If they wanted to have Storm out of the Format thats fine, but then they should dig the tree out and let it die instead of cutting the twigs every year.
That means announcing that they came to the conclusion that Storm is no longer tolerable in the format and they want ot have it gone for good.
The resulting bannings being Grapsehot, Empty the Warrens, and just to be sure Ignite Memories.
Personally i would not like if they did that but that would be a reasonable attempt to do something for the format, and it would make sense and actually solve a problem in a direct way.
It even would let the UR Storm shell live with EpEx to abuse.
If you aim to weaken Storm SS is the wrong banning ...
I tend to agree with you that it was the wrong way to hit the Storm deck. For awhile I have been advocating that they ban Grapeshot. I don't even think Empty or Ignite needs to be hit.
That said, I don't think their reasoning is completely invalid. It seems like more than anything they ask themselves
"Regardless of where we are now, in our ideal modern, would X card be legal?"
For Seething Song, that means asking themselves if they want a ritual that adds more than 1 mana available in their ideal modern. The answer looks to be no. They are looking to weaken current storm, sure, but at the same time, they are trying to sculpt things to how they would eventually want the format to be. They seem to think that a +2 ritual will always be a threat to the stability of the modern format, maybe not always in a Storm deck even, so thats what they hit.
Looking at the Wild Nacatl ban, in their ideal modern, would they want Nacatl around? No, because if it was, all aggro would need to gravitate towards it. Its less of a concern if banning WN immediately creates more aggro diversity. They wish that it would, but probably understand there is more keeping other aggro down in current modern than just WN.
It seems like they very much have a list of "cards we're worried about" and when they have an opportunity to make the case that the card from that list is a problem at a given time, they seize the opportunity to get rid of it.
This is causing a lot of dissonance with some of the playerbase. Since in the context of modern at the moment of banning, the justifications for banning seem plausible, but kind of weak.
The thing is, this is the way they have to do this if they want to get to that endpoint. The reaction I got from trying to suggest a significantly larger ban list is enough to convince me that WotC wouldn't want to do an all-at-once banning. But if they still wanted to get to that endpoint, what do they do?
1) They ban cards in smaller numbers as they are causing problems enough to justify to the majority of players that its at least reasonable, even if the players don't agree its "right" at the time.
2) They target cards on the banlist that just need the right answers to be available and try to slide those into new sets.
3) #2 lets them then unban something and deflect some of the "all they ever do is ban what is good" PR.
I completely understand if you don't agree with the endpoint they are trying to hit, but looking at it through this lens makes the "why" of what they are doing a lot more clear. There isn't a card on the banned list that doesn't make sense under that lens (Maybe GGT, but he may just be a plant for #3). There are cards not on the list that seem like they should be in that lens, but its then just a matter that they haven't had a chance to make a reasonable case for them yet and are trying to take things slowly for the sake of PR.
I and others do agree with the endpoint they are aiming for though, or at least agree that they are pointed in the right direction. I am in favor of pulling off the band-aid and just getting to the endpoint, but I understand wanting to take it slow so that they can
a) mitigate the PR backlash
b) have a better handle on where exactly the line is of what is okay in their format and whats not. There are some things that might be a problem or might be okay, going slow gives a better ability to find that line without overstepping.
I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I've said in the other thread that your envisoned attempt probably is to radical (just like mine). So the answer has to be somewhere in the middle.
I don't disagree what what I proposed was too radical. But WotC is not doign what I proposed. They are going in the same direction, but its not the same approach.
I was overshooting, with a plan to scale back as appropriate. They seem to be taking one step at a time towards their goal. I think the final resting point with either approach is likely to be the same (or very similar).
Mine trades a larger PR backlash for getting a format closer to what they want immediately.
Their apparent method has a longer but smaller PR backlash, and the format is a little weird as we step towards the end goal.
But in the end they probably lead to the same place.
The problem with you attempt is that you move a lot of cards around only to create a temporary equilibrium, that while be broken eventually every time.
This part can not be stated as definitive fact. I acknowledge I can not prove that you are wrong at the same time though. I think you are wrong here, and so does WotC apparently. You may end up being right, but the only real way to know for sure is for them to try.
Essentially that means that instead of the explicit rotation mechanism of Extended you have a implicit rotating mechanism to trough the bannedlist, that changes the format everytime something becomes to strong, instead of letting the format getting stronger and stronger over time.
Again, this is predicated on your assertion that "there can be no end to this madness", which can not yet be proven to be true (or false).
It is not necessarily true that they would eventually need to ban a given "good" card, say Vengevine just because its a good card and they ban several cards that are better than it.
It is possible that they can reach a lasting equilibrium and only need to ban new cards that they deem to be mistakes.
Maybe its impossible, but they seem to be betting the fate of modern that its not.
In theory that sounds interesting but i don't think its good to keep that going for a while as you basically upset a good part of the playerbase everytime.
We don't really have any idea how to calculate what part of the playerbase is upset, and upset enough to matter. Long term, they just need the number of people leaving or avoiding Modern to be less than the number of people buying into Modern.
They seem to think that the end point is going to bring in more than it puts off.
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I support WotC's goal of shaping Modern in favor of diversity.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I will start by saying that I, like most people in this thread, have not read the thread in its entirety. I have read about 30 pages of it. Throughout those pages, what has become very clear to me is that most people simply do not know what they are talking about. For slightly more credibility I will add that I have 4 Modern decks put together currently in paper: URg Twin, Spirit Jund, BUG Infect, and Affinity. I have played Infect and WUR Delver (preRTR) on MODO and moneyed in DE with both of them. This is all to say that I have a very good knowledge of the format and the various decks.
On the bannings:
First let me address BBE. I do not think many people were surprised by this one. At one point a few months ago I said this one would not be banned. I just didn't think they would pull that trigger. I think it is good for the format. I am very surprised by the people saying it was a bad ban. Many of the reasons people use to support their theory of this being a bad ban is that the ban does nothing to stop Jund from dominating. The truth is, BBE was the best card in the deck. It is what made an otherwise simple Rock deck splash for red. Lightning Bolt being arguably the best removal in the format also pushed the deck into red, but mostly it was the 2 for 1 that is BBE.
What this ban does is create diversity in the format. How does it do that? Simple. It breaks up the deck into multiple Rock decks. The combination of targeted discard, removal, and beaters (Tarmogoyf), goes back a long way. Eva Green was once a powerful BG Rock deck in Legacy that played all of these things. Jund will be continued on in the forms of BG, BUG, BGR, and BGW. My guess is that there will be a Gifts Rock, Doran Rock, and Jund (no elf) just like in old extended. These versions were obsolete because none of them could trump a BBE. If you can't beat them, join them. The Rock (which is all Jund ever was) will still be good, just in different forms. To those complaining about their recent purchase of Jund Staples (Goyf, Bob) please stop. Realize that you now own some of the best cards in Magic's history. Now you can reasonably play multiple decks with them.
On Seething Song:
I told my brother a few weeks ago they might ban this. My reasoning was this: Aggro decks cannot race storm because it is too fast. No one would invest time into a deck that simply loses to a popular archtype 80% of the time. Storm being as fast as it was was keeping aggro out of the format. They had to slow it down. The way to do that is to ban the best accel. I will admit I swore out loud when I saw this ban because I was pretty shocked. I think that it was correct. Many people have said that this killed Storm. I'm not sure. There are storm players who plan to keep playing storm. Don't forget to board for it or you may be sorry.
So why was Song banned and not something else? The most popular cards that people have said should be banned instead in this thread are Goblin Electromancer and Past in Flames. I think that these bannings would not have had the same effect.
Electromancer allows for fast kills. But, he dies to removal. The same cannot be said about Seething Song. Not all versions play Electromancer.
Past in Flames is very powerful, allowing the deck to go off much easier. However, it can be hated out by graveyard hate. The same cannot be said for Seething Song. Not all versions play 4 copies of Past In Flames.
As for Storm's speed, can Storm win turn 3? The answer is yes, absolutely yes. How do I know? Imagine you are on the draw against Storm playing Infect. Turn 2 you slam down your Blighted Agent and look at the 3 Pump spells your hand. You are going to kill them on turn 3, so you pass the turn. They untap, draw, and play Gitaxian Probe for 2 life. They see your hand and realize that they will lose on your 3rd turn. They have 2 options: Kill or be killed. So they attempt to go off.
I have lost this way numerous times. I have lost this way to a turn 2 Pyromancer Ascension. I have lost this way to a turn 2 Goblin Electromancer. I have lost this way when they have only cast cantrips up until that point. I have lost this way when they cast Seething Song. I have lost this way when they don't cast Seething Song. I have lost this way to Epic Experiment. They have a lot of turn 3 kills. I mean a lot. I know this because I have died that way. Banning Seething Song just takes away the best way to do that. I do not know how good the deck will be moving forward, but I am sure it will still be playable. It will probably be more reliant on Pyromancer's Ascension.
I think they were very sure they wanted to ban Bloodbraid Elf. This will decrease the amount of Jund like decks. Which in turn will decrease the number of discard spells and make Storm way better in the metagame. Storm would have probably become the best deck, although since it is hard to play, not an extremely popular deck. Not to Jund levels at least. Still aggro would not have found a place in the metagame.
I believe more than anything Bloodbraid Elf kept control out of the meta and fast combo kept aggro out. Counterspells were not efficient because they couldn't answer everything. Aggro could not race or interact with combo decks.
What this means going forward: We now have a good reason to believe that most the BL is pretty cemented. Cards like Bitterblossom, Jace, and Stoneforge Mystic are not coming off. That is what Bloodbraid Elf taught us. The turn 4 rule will be strictly implemented. That is what Seething Song taught us.
Possible Future Bans:
As an Infect player I know how fast the deck is. I don't think any other deck can kill turn 2. I expect Glistener Elf to leave us within a year. Even if they kill it, now they just have one less removal for the 2 drop. It will not kill infect, and it will still be playable.
Something from Eggs. If not for breaking the turn 3 rule (this deck does fizzles sometimes), then for taking way, WAY too long. It is not fun to play against. People not having fun hurts a format.
Possible cards to come off the banlist:
Ancestral Vision: Doubtful. Control will most likely not need it now.
Glimpse of Nature: Very small possibility. It probably takes away design space for creatures.
Golgari Grave-Troll: Maybe. It would be the best dredger and the wincon of the deck. Somewhat like Jace being the card draw and wincon, but it dies to removal. So maybe.
Green Sun's Zenith: Most likely not. They want diversity. I think this inhibits that.
Ponder and Preordain: I think one of these cards will come off the BL. As of right now there is not a good cantrip. I think that is strange for an eternal format. Preordain is not as good as Ponder (4>3). Either that, or they print a new cantrip better that Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions.
Wild Nacatl: If aggro decks become relevant then maybe. But with Kird Ape and Loam Lion, I do not think it will happen.
To the people saying this killed modern: I love this format dearly and many other people do too. New players will no longer be scared off by Big Bad Jund from when they started playing or by super fast combo.
To the people saying they are quitting modern: I pity you. You are really going to miss out. I will welcome you back when you are ready.
To the people saying that Wizards is banhappy: Have faith. Don't jump to conclusions, this is the first ban in a year.
To my fellow modern players: Feels good doesn't it?
Banning Seething Song doesn't kill Storm entirely; if you want to win games by throwing buckets of needles at your opponent's face, it's quite possible you can still do that. But the deck loses significant consistency by dropping from 12 rituals to 8, and (IMO) there's now very little reason to play it over other T1 combo decks (the obvious choice to move to is Splinter Twin).
I played a lot of Storm because I was comfortable with its position in the metagame and I liked the matchups it afforded me. But I'm no longer as comfortable with the deck's ability to perform consistently. I'll admit it - I'm not a brewer! I like taking known decks and mastering them. My skill set doesn't lend itself to building new things. So I don't see any reason to keep trying to master Modern Storm at the moment. The bans are certainly frustrating because of the time I had put into learning the deck, but I'm willing to move on and learn new things.
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It's not your job to win games of Magic where you're mana screwed.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Because Goyf is going to sell a whole lotta Modern Masters
Joking aside, I do believe that most of this forum is in a large agreement that Wild Nacatl being banned was definitely excessive.
What I believe wizards is not telling us, is that when GSZ was banned, they were afraid the default deck for aggro/aggro-control would have mutilated into the Naya+U decks that we saw in the early inception of the format. Cards like Wild Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Kird Ape, Bant Charm and Lightning Helix makes for a deck that had too many answers to the variety of the format's combo decks.
I do feel this format now needs a hero, and I think that Geist of St. Traft or Tarmogoyf will fight for that very throne. I would really love for it to be a Wild Nacatl though.
Because Goyf is going to sell a whole lotta Modern Masters
And that is a problem. So UnBan Nacatl already Dammit! I have dabbled in Modern and enjoyed playing 4 color planeswalkers and other Jank, but I cannot seriously invest into it if they are going to ban everything that is too powerful.
Joking aside, I do believe that most of this forum is in a large agreement that Wild Nacatl being banned was definitely excessive.
What I believe wizards is not telling us, is that when GSZ was banned, they were afraid the default deck for aggro/aggro-control would have mutilated into the Naya+U decks that we saw in the early inception of the format. Cards like Wild Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Kird Ape, Bant Charm and Lightning Helix makes for a deck that had too many answers to the variety of the format's combo decks.
I do feel this format now needs a hero, and I think that Geist of St. Traft or Tarmogoyf will fight for that very throne. I would really love for it to be a Wild Nacatl though.
Nacatl I believe can safely be unbanned as well
GoST despite the fact that I loathe that card (Hexproof mainly) is probably good enough to take the throne, if this does turn true I can see a Glaring Spotlight on Geist in the foreseeable future
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Modern:
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget I stream!
Possible Future Bans:
As an Infect player I know how fast the deck is. I don't think any other deck can kill turn 2. I expect Glistener Elf to leave us within a year. Even if they kill it, now they just have one less removal for the 2 drop. It will not kill infect, and it will still be playable.
I agree. T2 kills are not terrible uncommon, and T3 kills are even more common. It's a little more fair since the elf can easily be interacted with, but if your deck isn't packing 1 mana removal, there's a good chance you might go "Land, go, I lose"
A 2 CC infect creature can't even attack until T3. It's much more inline with where that deck should be
Nacatl I believe can safely be unbanned as well
No it can't. Nactl would make Naya Zoo the single aggro deck in the format. Period. It would outclass any other aggro strategy and turn aggro into "Play Zoo or your not playing aggro"
That's NOT a diverse format, and that's not what Modern should become.
The only card I see on there that's possibly safe for unbanning is Ancestral Visions, now that BBE is gone. Bitterblossum will never be unbanned, because then you are right back with one top standard deck having all of it's tools and dominating Modern. Every other card is fine staying on the ban list.
I'm not a big fan of Maro at all, but he said one thing that is the absolute truth: Restriction breeds creativity. When you have the best cards available, creativity suffers, because decks get solved. Look at Legacy, the decklists there usually have 80% or more of their core card choices pretty much set in stone. While it is a diverse format due to the card pool, it's certainly no a creative one, you know the best card for any conceivable role you need a card to play in a deck.
Modern is a creative format, precisely because of the restrictions. That's what makes it so much fun
They banned Nacatl to help create other aggro decks. The problem is no aggro deck can deal 20 damage by turn 4 with any sort of regularity. Even a triple Nacatl hand is only a turn 4 win.
Turn 1 Nacatl.
Turn 2 Swing for 3 (17). Play 2 Nacatls.
Turn 3 Swing for 9 (8).
Since no deck can reliably race a turn 3/4 combo deck, aggro is pushed out of the format for not being a good meta choice. Storm was the worst offender in that it could not be interacted with by these aggro decks. The nacatl deck above would only have burn and Path to Exile as non creature spells. This means the deck can interact with a Splinter Twin or Birthing Pod combo much more easily.
The reason aggro was not diverse was not because of Nacatl, it was because of Fast Combo. With the deck that aggro has the hardest time interacting with slowed down, aggro is more likely to find a place in the metagame. Decks like this Kird Ape decksthis just got way better. I looked at that list when it was published and thought, wow, that deck can't beat storm. Not even close.
I fully expect aggro decks to start popping up all over the place now. Nacatl, while safe in the format, is about 50% better than the closest alternatives (Kird Ape, Loam Lion) and better at dealing damage than the next fastest option (Goblin Guide). So if Nacatl is unbanned, what are you going to play as your one drop? The answer is probably Nacatl, then if there is room, something else. This isn't to say that it can't or won't be unbanned, it just seems like the reasoning is pretty solid to keep it on the list at least for now.
@Nyzzeh: You say you disagree with some of the cards I thought could be unbanned or will be banned. Which ones? I am curious.
Edit: For clarity, I think Infect and Affinity are more Aggro/Combo than aggro. Nacatl wouldn't push them out of the format. Just other more traditional aggro decks like Zoo which did not exist yesterday, but may have a chance tomorrow.
I have restarted this thread. Please stay on topic. The topic is the current modern ban list.
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Out of the blackness and stench of the engulfing swamp emerged a shimmering figure. Only the splattered armor and ichor-stained sword hinted at the unfathomable evil the knight had just laid waste.
The only card I see on there that's possibly safe for unbanning is Ancestral Visions, now that BBE is gone. Bitterblossum will never be unbanned, because then you are right back with one top standard deck having all of it's tools and dominating Modern. Every other card is fine staying on the ban list.
Bitterblossom might have a chance in modern if they ban Mistbind Clique (wich i think would be a very fair trade). Blitterblossom + Mistbind Clique were a nightmare, but without the tap all lands effect i think that Faeries woudn't be so powerful and would allow other decks to run Blossom. (I'm sure that a lot of decks would love to have blossom back)
And since Mistbind is currently unplayed it would hurt no decks. And also we have another hate to keep the tokens in check with Illness in the ranks
Haha 20 pages of forum cesspool snuffed out! It is probably best to just make a buffer forum for the first reactions to announcements that are usually along the lines of simple outbursts of the format being ruined or saved etc.
illness in the ranks was certainly making it look like Bitterblosom was coming off but I guess lingering souls was quite a doozy they weren't done printing hate cards for. Fae certainly looks like it would be strong in the new meta.
On Nacatal, Zoo was a very dominant deck and it probably would be again if it came off. I am not sure what types of decks people are imagining when they say there is no Agro. Mono Red and affinity are not agro? They play cheap creatures backed by burn or other reach mechanisms. Ww life gain and tokens are basically agro decks just with a few tricks added. There was even some RWB decks that just played all the best guys in those colors and some burn. Simply playing stupid creatures and hoping to get there wihtout much play is not an award winning strategy in general. I think we will see soon enough how the storm nerf helps these decks but something like twin could still be problematic for them.
If we can just get rid of Emrakul now I will be very content with control and the tools it currently has, oh and preordain can probably come off over Visions.
The criteria for bannings are:
1. They allow turn 4 but not consistent turn 3 combo decks.
2. No decks were allowed that dominated a seven-year or four-year Extended format that only included Modern-legal sets. This is subject to change though if they think it would increase the diveristy of the format.
3. Cards that are strong in vintage are too strong for modern.
4. Cards that are powerful in legacy are safer on the banlist than legal in modern.
5. Cards that are too dominant/efficient and that that push other strategies out of the format are better banned.
Bitterblossom is 2
Wild Nacatl falls under 5
Sword of the Meek is 4
Seething song is 1
Chrome Mox is 1 and 4
and for the record Jace is 3 and 4
As a preemptive response to the inevitable "but what about snapcaster and bob, they are powerful in vintage!"
Yes they are, but you are missing one valuable key bit of information. Their power is directly proportional to the power of the cards in the format.
Drawing an Ancestral Recall or Tinker from bob or flashing one back with snapcaster is far more powerful than flipping a tarmogoyf or flashing back a mana leak.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Other than that, and to be really honest, who likes a storm based combo deck? Some players, yes, but I'm pretty sure there are more that don't and prefer that out of the format to have a better experience playing it.
The fact that there was so many people playing storm, specially on mtgo, is that it's very cheap. I've spoken to many of those players and they confirmed this theory, many saying goyf is too expensive for them.
Like I said in my previus post, Burn and RG Tron have a very good matchup against Jund. Played Jund since T2 until it became 4c Jund with RTR, so I kinda know it When players stoped to play Finks to play Lingering Souls and more fetchlands and Shocklands the even Burn matchup became worst. Pre-Deathrite Shaman, the Storm matchup wasn't so good either. Jund has a hard time interacting with the stack, all the deck had was graveyad hate and discard, but it was a turn too slow most of the time. It gained good cards in the form of Abrupt Decay (to combat Ascension with maindeck cards) and Rakdos Charm (useful in a lot of matchups, cheap and effective), and also gain speed and GY disruption in Deathrite Shaman. The RG Tron matchup still is hard, but at least you can Sowing Salt in turn 3 with Shaman. Those are decks that have a good matchup against Jund. UW Tempo (Angels?) has a good matchup I heard, but havent really played it since it wasnt so popular here when I Junded.
The solution wasnt ban BBE, I would had Chrome Mox unbanned instead. The Mox hasn't been banned in Extended, Legacy or T2, so why in Modern? Neither Jund or Storm would play it (Maybe Infect), so it could help the other decks. It also enables Dragon Stompy (another deck that Pros dont respect), capable of turn 2 Blood Moon, Chalice of the Void and Trinisphere. Wizards needs to understand that Jund is not about BBE, its about a 4 color pile of good cards. Is there a difference between playing the top 10 cards of the format in your deck or the 2° to the 11°? Jund can easily play the next best thing. That's because:
a) Fetch+Shocklands
b) Deathrite Shaman to fix, accelerate and regain life from a)
c) A format that doesnt punish this manabase
If no deck could face Jund succesfully its because of the other bannings. You have to mantein an even powerlevel in the Format. You either unban or ban cards. Clearly, banning cards and lowering power level aproaches the format to T2 and unbanning makes the format more Legacy alike. Both balanced options, but I was expecting a format like the old Extended: good cards, some power level, some speed and non-rotating, not a big T2.
Edit: and for the record, GW Kibler could be like Legacy Maverick if it has access to GSZ. But Wizards banned it because they dont want green decks to have such versatility. That's another card Jund can't play
The same argument can be said about almost any card in magic.
"Is Skullclamp powerful on it's own? No, if there are no creatures around, Skullclamp is a pretty fair card. Sure it sees play in Vintage and is banned in Legacy, but that means absolutely nothing about the card being played in Modern by itself. Skullclamp is fine to uban."
I just thought I'd add that you need to look at the specific card when you make the comparisons. As I said in my other post, Snappy and Bob are fine because of the relative power of the cards in the format. If Ancestral Recall was in modern, Snapcaster Mage's powerlevel increases by a wide margin. When looking at Skullclamp though, you need to take into account that cards like Lingering Souls are in the format. Sword of the Meek would be far less powerful in a format without Thopter Foundry, etc.
Set a man on fire, he'll be warm for the rest of his life.
Sure it does when you are worried about power level. If you are trying to create a format between Standard and Legacy and you have a deck being played and competing in the higher level format, that is bad for the format you are trying to create. That means that decks power level is too high for the created format and needs to be brought down to the proper level to the rest of the decks.
Gifts Ungiven is restricted in Vintage, but is the core of a Tier 1.5 deck in Modern. Why? The card pools are different.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
A lot of people I know enjoy Storm, but they didn't have to ban Seething Song to weaken it, Electromancer would have been fine and by banning Song they killed off Hive Mind
Storm is a fun and unique deck, as is Eggs, Hive Mind, and Ad Nauseum Lightning Storm
This ban also killed off Dragonstorm
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
The rest? I can only scratch my head and wonder what the DCI is thinking.
The only cards that should be on that list are the ones that are so clearly broken like the artifact lands, cards that allow turn 1 or 2 drop big creature and kill you wins, cards that allow ridiculous infinite combos and so on.
Not Mox
Not Kitty
Not BBE
Not JtMS
Not Ponder
Not Preordain
Not MM
Not Visions
Not SS
I could go on but I'll only make myself sick.
The format should be allowed to breathe for crying out loud. Give control a chance to be competitive. Let Zoo be a deck again. Let people play Storm if they want to. For crying out loud, what's next? Eggs?
Not wanting this format to be Legacy lite is one thing. Turning into Standard on caffeine is something entirely different.
Because that's exactly what they've done to it.
Totally, thoroughly, disgusted.
Yeah, cause Affinity, Bant, Merfolk, Boros, and Infect = "no other aggro decks".
Aggro is very healthy, FAR healthier than if aggro was "Play Nactl, or don't bother playing aggro"
Then you must have plenty of respect for DCI cause you're completely wrong saying aggro does not exist in Modern. The last two Modern events I went to were won by aggro decks.
Jace and SFM are absurdly broken, and absolutely belong on the Modern ban list. Watch the Pro Player interviews when Modern was announced. To the last one they all agree Jace should be banned. If Jace was unbanned, he would absolutely be run as a 4 of in every single blue deck. Just like he was in Standard.
As for SFM, he's even MORE busted in Modern than he was in Standard since he could fetch up all the swords and Jitte. He would dominate the entire format. Every modern Top 8 would have 32 copies of SFM. That's not a healthy format.
It will make them 1 turn faster. Which pushes a lot of T4 decks into T3 decks. It also makes Affinity too powerful. Oh wait, I forgot, there's no aggro in Modern.
So the health of a format is determined by how powerful Blue is? OK.
Because Jund would run Visions and cast it for free off BBE. All Visions does is make the dominant deck EVEN BETTER. With BBE gone, I can see a case for Visions getting unbanned in the future.
Yes, Modern does not want T2-T3 wins off Dredge, or to devolve into the eternal format of Caw Blade mirrors. That's a GOOD thing. And Storm is quite viable, replacement lists have already sprung up. Have you read the Storm forums?
If you no longer have any intentions of playing Modern, the why do you care what the banlist is, and why are you posting in the Modern subforum?
The banlist has made me even more excited to play Modern. You have a more level playing field, new midrange decks will start taking off, Control will get a boost (I'm liking MBC myself), and there's hopefully a lot less of sitting down and watching an opponent play Magic with himself for 10 minutes to combo off his Storm deck.
Not even remotely true. Bringing Jund down in power opened up several midrange strategies that were previously simply outclassed by Jund. It makes the format MORE diverse
Oh yeah, good old "Have a FoW in hand or lose to any number of T1 combo decks" Legacy. What a rich and rewarding format. The only thing rich about Legacy are the people who fork over the money to play it.
Modern is nothing like Legacy, and that's a GOOD thing. Modern is fresh, growing, innovative, and affordable. Legacy is stale, dying, boring, and uber expensive.
Mox speeds up affinity and speed up combo. Directly contrary to the stated goals of the format
Nactly makes Zoo simply outclasse every other aggro deck, resulting in a much less diverse format
JtMS, that's not even a raitonal thing to suggest being unbanned
Ponder and Preordain easily shave a turn or 2 off combo decks, and would make them the clear dominant deck in the format
Mental Misstep? Really? A Legacy player who cannot see how broken that card is?
Visions will probably be unbanned now that Jund can't cast it for free
Seething Song made Storm more consitent and faster than the stated intentions for the format.
You seem to be pissed that Modern isn't "Legacy Lite". It was never meant to be. If you want stupid busted T1 combos and an entire format held together by a single card, play Legacy, have a ball. But complaining that Modern isn't "broken enough" is ridiculous. Don't jump on the "we hate change" bandwagon without putting some thought into what the overall format is trying to achieve and how the bans play into that.
If you don't like that format, then fine, don't play Modern. It wasn't made for you.
So Affinity is not aggro? OK. And Boros is a deck, I won an event with it. Granted, a small one, but still.
So a 0 cost artifact doesn't help Affinity? Have you ever played the deck? It turns Chrome Mox into mana producing artifact without having to imprint a card. It's crazy broken in that deck, it's pure mana accell with zero drawback.
So banning nactly made several aggro deck possible, so banning BBE will kill midrange? Right.
Here's a little test: There have been several time in MTG's history where tournamanet attendance dropped significantly, players were leaving the game, and MTg was on a downturn. When were those times?
When there was a clearly dominant deck that everyone played.
When you want to grow a format, you try to make as many deck choices viable as possible. Having a single best aggro deck or a single best combo deck are NOT good things.
I'm not saying Modern is perfect, but I think it's a much healthier format than the knee jerk reactions people are throwing out there.
And those tempo and midrange decks lose to Belcher or TEPS or ANT unless they are packing Force of Will. That one card keeps the entire format from collapsing in on itself, That's not a healthy format. At all.
I'm sorry, but that statement single handedly undermines any credibility you could have in this discussion.
And here is the relevant parts of the ban announcement:
Given these two passages, I think that the ban on Seething Song is about as cut and dry as it gets. WotC thought that Storm was winning too quickly. I think it's okay to speculate that other fast combos were left alone because they're not as difficult to interact with. It may be that WotC is saying that they do not want to have combos in the format that require a counterspell to stop.
Now here I've prepared a little chart to help visualize the state of modern.
(The percentages are approximations and the color bands do not relate to decks on a 1 to 1 basis. If anyone is inspired to create a more accurate version of my chart feel free to knock yourself out.)
Chart of Decks in the Modern Meta
My interpretation:
This is how I interpret the proven section of the Modern forums here at MTGS.
Jund is the only mid-range deck. I counted 7 decks that I'd put in the ramp/combo bucket, 2 control decks and 4 aggro decks.
I interpret this as Jund being "format-warping".
1. Note that there aren't any other mid-range decks. Jund is so dominant that it has pushed all of the others out.
2. The reason Modern is so over-run with combo? Jund. When the format is dominated by a mid-range deck the proper meta play is to come to the tournament with a ramp or combo deck.
3. Aggro enjoys a pretty decent match-up against combo. A dominant mid-range deck like Jund would normally hate out a lot of the aggro decks but Jund has itself been limited by the number of combo decks being played. Jund's 'share' of the meta basically isn't as oppressive as its power level suggests that it should be. Basically the proliferation of combo leads to openings for aggro.
4. What about control? I think control has too many variables to control. First of all their weakest matchup hasn't been hated out of the meta, there are still enough aggro decks to cause problems for them. Second - the number of different combo decks and WotCs trend away from absolute counters (e.g. counter target creature spell, counter target non-creature spell, etc...) Third, Jund again. With Dark Confidant and BBE Jund had enough card advantage to overwhelm control decks. Regardless of your thoughts on this, the fact that control is so under-represented in a meta that seems primed for them to dominate points to the existence of at least one factor preventing them from taking charge. (Jund)
I think that the BBE ban makes it a bit easier for Control to cope with Jund, and the Seething Song ban makes it easier for everyone who isn't Storm, but Control should benefit from that banning as well as it should allow control to run a more focused (more effective) denial package. If the changes are effective then Combo will probably tick up in popularity for a brief time before control decks start to gain some share. If the meta eventually settles into a state where archetypes are represented more evenly then the bans should be considered a success.
Shhh. That's what the last thread was. We in fight constantly it's the nature of message boards on the internet.
Anyway Props to Illinest for the fancy graph and reasonable explanations. I don't agree with all of them, but they bring up some good discussion
I don't know if I agree with this. Combo is so successful because modern does not currently have many of the tools needed to fight the variety of combo decks out there. You bring this up in a later point about how Control does not have the general answers it needs. Combo players just gamble that people won't have an adequate sideboard for their particular deck.
Yes yes yes! Here we completely agree. Basically control is currently lacking the tools to be general enough. Answers to threats in modern are either very situational or very costly. So why bother playing answers when its just better to play threats? Aggro threats like affinity, or Combo threats that are difficult to be hated.
The biggest problem most people I know have with modern is that its far more reliant on the sideboard than any other format. While stuff such as affinity or infect aren't combo decks themselves, you have to hate them out like combo decks. This is true for the multitude of combo decks that often need very different answers for the threats they posed. Realistically you can tune your SB for about 2 or 3 different matchups, and then just hope that you dodge anything you aren't ready for.
Having to rely on your SB sucks. The games feel less skill intensive and exciting. It devolves into did I get my SB cards? Did my opponent pack the right type of hate?
This is modern's biggest difficulty to overcome, well that and the poor stigma of being a format that Wizards are overly ban happy with. You guys can and obviously will disagree with many of the things I say, but modern has the stigma of being a banhappy and unstable format (for now) and its one where games feel more out of your control compared to other formats.
Modern:
UWUW TronUW
Legacy:
WDeath N TaxesW
CEldrazi C
If you couldn't tell I hate greedy blue decks.
Vintage
WWhite Trash
1. While I fully understand why BBE was banned, it makes me sad that the metagame wasn't able to adapt quickly enough to get to that next stage in its evolution. I was really looking forward to seeing Jund being challenged by Geist, Snapcaster Twin, and Boros Aggro. Typically, I don't support bannings unless the format consists solely of Top Tier Deck vs. Anti-Top Tier Deck. While it may have appeared for a bit that the format was going to turn into Jund vs. Anti-Jund, I don't believe that's the way the format was evolving.
2. Seething Song got banned because without Jund being rampant, WotC predicted Storm would come back strong. This was probably a fair prediction, although with the rise of Geist and UW decks, along with the breakup of Jund into three decks all utilizing hand disruption, I think Storm would not have been the dominant force they predicted. I'm also aware that WotC was using data from MTG Online regarding Storm. Personally, I believe they should have the online and paper games separate from each other; from what I've seen, MTGO is a pretty bad model and its randomization doesn't reflect real-life trends. I mean, when I look at the randomization and think to myself, "Apprentice randomized better than this," there's a major problem.
3. Writing this, I'm suddenly reminded of something Ed Severson (old school Vintage player - made Ankh Sligh and evolved Sui Black to what it was up until Odyssey block) said to me a long time ago - if aggro isn't playable in a format, it's not a healthy format. It seems WotC is seeing this as well. Yeah, you could call Jund midrange aggro, and Affinity definitely was aggro, but everything else that was consistently t8'ing was tempo, ramp, or combo with a tiny bit of control mixed in. With so many different options for tempo and combo, having so few options for control and aggro really doesn't supply for a healthy metagame. The breaking up of Jund may not be a terrible thing, as we'll be seeing Jund, Junk, and BUG instead of just Jund. Hopefully WotC's decision will cause the metagame to be more on the level and less tilted toward combo and midrange.
I tend to agree with you that it was the wrong way to hit the Storm deck. For awhile I have been advocating that they ban Grapeshot. I don't even think Empty or Ignite needs to be hit.
That said, I don't think their reasoning is completely invalid. It seems like more than anything they ask themselves
"Regardless of where we are now, in our ideal modern, would X card be legal?"
For Seething Song, that means asking themselves if they want a ritual that adds more than 1 mana available in their ideal modern. The answer looks to be no. They are looking to weaken current storm, sure, but at the same time, they are trying to sculpt things to how they would eventually want the format to be. They seem to think that a +2 ritual will always be a threat to the stability of the modern format, maybe not always in a Storm deck even, so thats what they hit.
Looking at the Wild Nacatl ban, in their ideal modern, would they want Nacatl around? No, because if it was, all aggro would need to gravitate towards it. Its less of a concern if banning WN immediately creates more aggro diversity. They wish that it would, but probably understand there is more keeping other aggro down in current modern than just WN.
It seems like they very much have a list of "cards we're worried about" and when they have an opportunity to make the case that the card from that list is a problem at a given time, they seize the opportunity to get rid of it.
This is causing a lot of dissonance with some of the playerbase. Since in the context of modern at the moment of banning, the justifications for banning seem plausible, but kind of weak.
The thing is, this is the way they have to do this if they want to get to that endpoint. The reaction I got from trying to suggest a significantly larger ban list is enough to convince me that WotC wouldn't want to do an all-at-once banning. But if they still wanted to get to that endpoint, what do they do?
1) They ban cards in smaller numbers as they are causing problems enough to justify to the majority of players that its at least reasonable, even if the players don't agree its "right" at the time.
2) They target cards on the banlist that just need the right answers to be available and try to slide those into new sets.
3) #2 lets them then unban something and deflect some of the "all they ever do is ban what is good" PR.
I completely understand if you don't agree with the endpoint they are trying to hit, but looking at it through this lens makes the "why" of what they are doing a lot more clear. There isn't a card on the banned list that doesn't make sense under that lens (Maybe GGT, but he may just be a plant for #3). There are cards not on the list that seem like they should be in that lens, but its then just a matter that they haven't had a chance to make a reasonable case for them yet and are trying to take things slowly for the sake of PR.
I and others do agree with the endpoint they are aiming for though, or at least agree that they are pointed in the right direction. I am in favor of pulling off the band-aid and just getting to the endpoint, but I understand wanting to take it slow so that they can
a) mitigate the PR backlash
b) have a better handle on where exactly the line is of what is okay in their format and whats not. There are some things that might be a problem or might be okay, going slow gives a better ability to find that line without overstepping.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
I don't disagree what what I proposed was too radical. But WotC is not doign what I proposed. They are going in the same direction, but its not the same approach.
I was overshooting, with a plan to scale back as appropriate. They seem to be taking one step at a time towards their goal. I think the final resting point with either approach is likely to be the same (or very similar).
Mine trades a larger PR backlash for getting a format closer to what they want immediately.
Their apparent method has a longer but smaller PR backlash, and the format is a little weird as we step towards the end goal.
But in the end they probably lead to the same place.
This part can not be stated as definitive fact. I acknowledge I can not prove that you are wrong at the same time though. I think you are wrong here, and so does WotC apparently. You may end up being right, but the only real way to know for sure is for them to try.
Again, this is predicated on your assertion that "there can be no end to this madness", which can not yet be proven to be true (or false).
It is not necessarily true that they would eventually need to ban a given "good" card, say Vengevine just because its a good card and they ban several cards that are better than it.
It is possible that they can reach a lasting equilibrium and only need to ban new cards that they deem to be mistakes.
Maybe its impossible, but they seem to be betting the fate of modern that its not.
We don't really have any idea how to calculate what part of the playerbase is upset, and upset enough to matter. Long term, they just need the number of people leaving or avoiding Modern to be less than the number of people buying into Modern.
They seem to think that the end point is going to bring in more than it puts off.
I ran a thought experiment on my blog
Modern in a Nuclear Wasteland
of an extreme case of banning 20 more cards to make sure they get everything, then scaling back where appropriate. WotC seems to be on a slowly build up approach. Both ways probably reach similar end points.
The post Gatecrash metagame is proving to be closer to the endpoint than I estimated, so its very possible that few (if any) more cards need to be banned.
On the bannings:
First let me address BBE. I do not think many people were surprised by this one. At one point a few months ago I said this one would not be banned. I just didn't think they would pull that trigger. I think it is good for the format. I am very surprised by the people saying it was a bad ban. Many of the reasons people use to support their theory of this being a bad ban is that the ban does nothing to stop Jund from dominating. The truth is, BBE was the best card in the deck. It is what made an otherwise simple Rock deck splash for red. Lightning Bolt being arguably the best removal in the format also pushed the deck into red, but mostly it was the 2 for 1 that is BBE.
What this ban does is create diversity in the format. How does it do that? Simple. It breaks up the deck into multiple Rock decks. The combination of targeted discard, removal, and beaters (Tarmogoyf), goes back a long way. Eva Green was once a powerful BG Rock deck in Legacy that played all of these things. Jund will be continued on in the forms of BG, BUG, BGR, and BGW. My guess is that there will be a Gifts Rock, Doran Rock, and Jund (no elf) just like in old extended. These versions were obsolete because none of them could trump a BBE. If you can't beat them, join them. The Rock (which is all Jund ever was) will still be good, just in different forms. To those complaining about their recent purchase of Jund Staples (Goyf, Bob) please stop. Realize that you now own some of the best cards in Magic's history. Now you can reasonably play multiple decks with them.
On Seething Song:
I told my brother a few weeks ago they might ban this. My reasoning was this: Aggro decks cannot race storm because it is too fast. No one would invest time into a deck that simply loses to a popular archtype 80% of the time. Storm being as fast as it was was keeping aggro out of the format. They had to slow it down. The way to do that is to ban the best accel. I will admit I swore out loud when I saw this ban because I was pretty shocked. I think that it was correct. Many people have said that this killed Storm. I'm not sure. There are storm players who plan to keep playing storm. Don't forget to board for it or you may be sorry.
So why was Song banned and not something else? The most popular cards that people have said should be banned instead in this thread are Goblin Electromancer and Past in Flames. I think that these bannings would not have had the same effect.
Electromancer allows for fast kills. But, he dies to removal. The same cannot be said about Seething Song. Not all versions play Electromancer.
Past in Flames is very powerful, allowing the deck to go off much easier. However, it can be hated out by graveyard hate. The same cannot be said for Seething Song. Not all versions play 4 copies of Past In Flames.
As for Storm's speed, can Storm win turn 3? The answer is yes, absolutely yes. How do I know? Imagine you are on the draw against Storm playing Infect. Turn 2 you slam down your Blighted Agent and look at the 3 Pump spells your hand. You are going to kill them on turn 3, so you pass the turn. They untap, draw, and play Gitaxian Probe for 2 life. They see your hand and realize that they will lose on your 3rd turn. They have 2 options: Kill or be killed. So they attempt to go off.
I have lost this way numerous times. I have lost this way to a turn 2 Pyromancer Ascension. I have lost this way to a turn 2 Goblin Electromancer. I have lost this way when they have only cast cantrips up until that point. I have lost this way when they cast Seething Song. I have lost this way when they don't cast Seething Song. I have lost this way to Epic Experiment. They have a lot of turn 3 kills. I mean a lot. I know this because I have died that way. Banning Seething Song just takes away the best way to do that. I do not know how good the deck will be moving forward, but I am sure it will still be playable. It will probably be more reliant on Pyromancer's Ascension.
I think they were very sure they wanted to ban Bloodbraid Elf. This will decrease the amount of Jund like decks. Which in turn will decrease the number of discard spells and make Storm way better in the metagame. Storm would have probably become the best deck, although since it is hard to play, not an extremely popular deck. Not to Jund levels at least. Still aggro would not have found a place in the metagame.
I believe more than anything Bloodbraid Elf kept control out of the meta and fast combo kept aggro out. Counterspells were not efficient because they couldn't answer everything. Aggro could not race or interact with combo decks.
What this means going forward: We now have a good reason to believe that most the BL is pretty cemented. Cards like Bitterblossom, Jace, and Stoneforge Mystic are not coming off. That is what Bloodbraid Elf taught us. The turn 4 rule will be strictly implemented. That is what Seething Song taught us.
Possible Future Bans:
As an Infect player I know how fast the deck is. I don't think any other deck can kill turn 2. I expect Glistener Elf to leave us within a year. Even if they kill it, now they just have one less removal for the 2 drop. It will not kill infect, and it will still be playable.
Something from Eggs. If not for breaking the turn 3 rule (this deck does fizzles sometimes), then for taking way, WAY too long. It is not fun to play against. People not having fun hurts a format.
Possible cards to come off the banlist:
Ancestral Vision: Doubtful. Control will most likely not need it now.
Glimpse of Nature: Very small possibility. It probably takes away design space for creatures.
Golgari Grave-Troll: Maybe. It would be the best dredger and the wincon of the deck. Somewhat like Jace being the card draw and wincon, but it dies to removal. So maybe.
Green Sun's Zenith: Most likely not. They want diversity. I think this inhibits that.
Ponder and Preordain: I think one of these cards will come off the BL. As of right now there is not a good cantrip. I think that is strange for an eternal format. Preordain is not as good as Ponder (4>3). Either that, or they print a new cantrip better that Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions.
Wild Nacatl: If aggro decks become relevant then maybe. But with Kird Ape and Loam Lion, I do not think it will happen.
To the people saying this killed modern: I love this format dearly and many other people do too. New players will no longer be scared off by Big Bad Jund from when they started playing or by super fast combo.
To the people saying they are quitting modern: I pity you. You are really going to miss out. I will welcome you back when you are ready.
To the people saying that Wizards is banhappy: Have faith. Don't jump to conclusions, this is the first ban in a year.
To my fellow modern players: Feels good doesn't it?
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
I played a lot of Storm because I was comfortable with its position in the metagame and I liked the matchups it afforded me. But I'm no longer as comfortable with the deck's ability to perform consistently. I'll admit it - I'm not a brewer! I like taking known decks and mastering them. My skill set doesn't lend itself to building new things. So I don't see any reason to keep trying to master Modern Storm at the moment. The bans are certainly frustrating because of the time I had put into learning the deck, but I'm willing to move on and learn new things.
It's your job win every game of Magic where you're not.
Joking aside, I do believe that most of this forum is in a large agreement that Wild Nacatl being banned was definitely excessive.
What I believe wizards is not telling us, is that when GSZ was banned, they were afraid the default deck for aggro/aggro-control would have mutilated into the Naya+U decks that we saw in the early inception of the format. Cards like Wild Nacatl, Knight of the Reliquary, Kird Ape, Bant Charm and Lightning Helix makes for a deck that had too many answers to the variety of the format's combo decks.
I do feel this format now needs a hero, and I think that Geist of St. Traft or Tarmogoyf will fight for that very throne. I would really love for it to be a Wild Nacatl though.
And that is a problem. So UnBan Nacatl already Dammit! I have dabbled in Modern and enjoyed playing 4 color planeswalkers and other Jank, but I cannot seriously invest into it if they are going to ban everything that is too powerful.
Nacatl I believe can safely be unbanned as well
GoST despite the fact that I loathe that card (Hexproof mainly) is probably good enough to take the throne, if this does turn true I can see a Glaring Spotlight on Geist in the foreseeable future
Paper: WUR Waffle Control, RG and U Tron
MTGO: U Tron, BRG Living End, B Infect
Testing Modern on MTGO and helping to craft decks on a Budget
I stream!
Hermit Druid Combo:
I agree. T2 kills are not terrible uncommon, and T3 kills are even more common. It's a little more fair since the elf can easily be interacted with, but if your deck isn't packing 1 mana removal, there's a good chance you might go "Land, go, I lose"
A 2 CC infect creature can't even attack until T3. It's much more inline with where that deck should be
No it can't. Nactl would make Naya Zoo the single aggro deck in the format. Period. It would outclass any other aggro strategy and turn aggro into "Play Zoo or your not playing aggro"
That's NOT a diverse format, and that's not what Modern should become.
The only card I see on there that's possibly safe for unbanning is Ancestral Visions, now that BBE is gone. Bitterblossum will never be unbanned, because then you are right back with one top standard deck having all of it's tools and dominating Modern. Every other card is fine staying on the ban list.
I'm not a big fan of Maro at all, but he said one thing that is the absolute truth: Restriction breeds creativity. When you have the best cards available, creativity suffers, because decks get solved. Look at Legacy, the decklists there usually have 80% or more of their core card choices pretty much set in stone. While it is a diverse format due to the card pool, it's certainly no a creative one, you know the best card for any conceivable role you need a card to play in a deck.
Modern is a creative format, precisely because of the restrictions. That's what makes it so much fun
Turn 1 Nacatl.
Turn 2 Swing for 3 (17). Play 2 Nacatls.
Turn 3 Swing for 9 (8).
Since no deck can reliably race a turn 3/4 combo deck, aggro is pushed out of the format for not being a good meta choice. Storm was the worst offender in that it could not be interacted with by these aggro decks. The nacatl deck above would only have burn and Path to Exile as non creature spells. This means the deck can interact with a Splinter Twin or Birthing Pod combo much more easily.
The reason aggro was not diverse was not because of Nacatl, it was because of Fast Combo. With the deck that aggro has the hardest time interacting with slowed down, aggro is more likely to find a place in the metagame. Decks like this Kird Ape decksthis just got way better. I looked at that list when it was published and thought, wow, that deck can't beat storm. Not even close.
I fully expect aggro decks to start popping up all over the place now. Nacatl, while safe in the format, is about 50% better than the closest alternatives (Kird Ape, Loam Lion) and better at dealing damage than the next fastest option (Goblin Guide). So if Nacatl is unbanned, what are you going to play as your one drop? The answer is probably Nacatl, then if there is room, something else. This isn't to say that it can't or won't be unbanned, it just seems like the reasoning is pretty solid to keep it on the list at least for now.
@Nyzzeh: You say you disagree with some of the cards I thought could be unbanned or will be banned. Which ones? I am curious.
Edit: For clarity, I think Infect and Affinity are more Aggro/Combo than aggro. Nacatl wouldn't push them out of the format. Just other more traditional aggro decks like Zoo which did not exist yesterday, but may have a chance tomorrow.
Level 1 Judge
WUBRG
well whatever...
Bitterblossom might have a chance in modern if they ban Mistbind Clique (wich i think would be a very fair trade). Blitterblossom + Mistbind Clique were a nightmare, but without the tap all lands effect i think that Faeries woudn't be so powerful and would allow other decks to run Blossom. (I'm sure that a lot of decks would love to have blossom back)
And since Mistbind is currently unplayed it would hurt no decks. And also we have another hate to keep the tokens in check with Illness in the ranks
illness in the ranks was certainly making it look like Bitterblosom was coming off but I guess lingering souls was quite a doozy they weren't done printing hate cards for. Fae certainly looks like it would be strong in the new meta.
On Nacatal, Zoo was a very dominant deck and it probably would be again if it came off. I am not sure what types of decks people are imagining when they say there is no Agro. Mono Red and affinity are not agro? They play cheap creatures backed by burn or other reach mechanisms. Ww life gain and tokens are basically agro decks just with a few tricks added. There was even some RWB decks that just played all the best guys in those colors and some burn. Simply playing stupid creatures and hoping to get there wihtout much play is not an award winning strategy in general. I think we will see soon enough how the storm nerf helps these decks but something like twin could still be problematic for them.
If we can just get rid of Emrakul now I will be very content with control and the tools it currently has, oh and preordain can probably come off over Visions.