An early Blood Moon can completely shut down some decks (I haven't piloted a lot of Blood Moon decks, but I know they can come down pretty early with Simian Spirit Guide and/or rituals).
You have the answer to Goyf and DRS right in front of your eyes since RtR. It's called Rest In Peace, making Goyf a 0/1 and DRS a 1/2 and against Jund preventing them from playing the flashback of Lingering Souls.
What? Abrupt Decay on the RiP? Well that's a bit late, mate. Everything is already exiled and you have to start a new graveyard. And that's a decay that won't fall down on your creatures.
This could work for some decks, but unfortunately not for the Ux tempo decks that were most hurt by DRS and Abrupt Decay. At least Lightning Bolt works on DRS, but the decks can't do anything against Abrupt Decay aside from maybe shifting to hexproof guys and finding a way to protect them from Liliana.
The rest in peace argument is invalid (and this is one of those typical arguments that people will always say) because even if it's very good against jund, it's bad against many other decks, so it's bad in the maindeck unless jund is like 90% of the meta. Game1s are 50% of what you need to win a match, and drawing a specific sideboard card two games in a row doesn't happen often enough. People always forget that.
I said something similar in this thread about a month and a half ago, but I'll just paraphase it. Deathrite Shaman is similar to GSZ in terms of being an extremely powerful swiss army knife that is almost never a dead card, all while stifling diversity at the same time. When I go to brew a deck that is mainly black or green in it, I always ask myself "why don't I just put 4x Deathrite Shaman in and make the deck better?" If you want a good turn 1 mana accelerator, you play Deathrite Shaman. If you want powerful and flexible graveyard hate, you play Deathrite Shaman. If you want a card that provides late game reach, you play Deathrite Shaman.
DRS is the type of card that gets dropped into a diverse metagame and allows further diversification. If any powerful card gets dropped into a perfect storm type situation its going to be bad for the format. This is the problem with jund. The cogs have all been put into the right places. Sure DRS is one of these cogs, but not all of them. The whole GB shell is honestly to blame. Throw in the power from bolt and BBE and you have a dominant deck. I don't know what you can really hit between goyf, Bob, liliana, thoughtsieze, and DRS, because 2 of them are sacred cows, 1 of them is needed for the format, and the third is a creature that can be used in many decks that can serve to help keep a balanced format balanced. This is the main reason why I believe it will be lily and BBE that take the fall. These 2 cards are notoriously good against control decks while still being game changing most of the other decks in the format.
About Delver:
Honestly delver was Notre Dame IMO. We knew it had its weaknesses, but refused to admit them because it was beating up on ju-co teams. Once abrupt decay came out those weaknesses were exaggerated. The deck had a VD the whole time, but no one really cared until the popular prom queen caught it then it was national news.
This has happened many times in the past in many different formats. Even without new cards being printed. People learn the meta, then they learn how to bust it up. This is typically how it happens although sometimes the meta solution deck ends up becoming the problem itself. such has happened several times in the past most notably Pre-ban standard Caw-blade which was the solution deck to GR/x Valakut decks that were ruling the format at that time.
Looking at the current meta jund is pre-ban standard caw blade. It was made to compete with the aggro decks of the format while it is more than versatile enough to go toe to toe with combo and control.
Part of them problem with beating jund with a control deck is the general weaknesses of the decks you could make. For example the counterspells are all bad, the card draw is all bad, and the ways to win without tapping out during your turn and playing some durdle dude who just dies are extremely narrow and bad. Do control decks exist in the format yeah, but they are all a few cards short of tier 1 status.
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You have the answer to Goyf and DRS right in front of your eyes since RtR. It's called Rest In Peace, making Goyf a 0/1 and DRS a 1/2 and against Jund preventing them from playing the flashback of Lingering Souls.
What? Abrupt Decay on the RiP? Well that's a bit late, mate. Everything is already exiled and you have to start a new graveyard. And that's a decay that won't fall down on your creatures.
Here is the problem with this. First off, Jund plays abrupt decay & pulse. They can answer rest in peace just fine. Second off, drawing multiple rest in peaces is useless, and makes it so you're essentially discarding a card. Third, rest in peace means you can't be playing a deck that uses the graveyard. Find me a competitive deck in modern that doesn't want to be using the graveyard in some way shape or form. If you're not using the graveyard in modern, you're probably purposefully de-powering your deck just so you get make full value from a sideboard card (rest in peace), which is bad deck design in the first place. Outside niche decks like Martyr, rest in peace isn't a card most decks in the format can afford to play since it screws their own gameplan just as much as their opponents'.
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I said something similar in this thread about a month and a half ago, but I'll just paraphase it. Deathrite Shaman is similar to GSZ in terms of being an extremely powerful swiss army knife that is almost never a dead card, all while stifling diversity at the same time. When I go to brew a deck that is mainly black or green in it, I always ask myself "why don't I just put 4x Deathrite Shaman in and make the deck better?" If you want a good turn 1 mana accelerator, you play Deathrite Shaman. If you want powerful and flexible graveyard hate, you play Deathrite Shaman. If you want a card that provides late game reach, you play Deathrite Shaman.
Yeah but his point in favor is that it acts like a maindeck combo hate, which is what Modern and eternal formats usually need (like fow).
If Wotc bans something from Jund because of the Legacy wins, do you really expect Wotc to give Modern FOW? Modern having FOW would make Modern even closer to Legacy lite. I dont see that happening any time soon.
Wtf?
Fow is just an example of maindeck card that is good against combo that defines the format and makes combo in general worse.
DRS is the same but in a smaller scale (because it just deals with graveyard based combo and is also not as definitive as fow).
I like it better like this with little maindeck combo semi-hate cards, we just need more, this time like a white or red one that deals with spell-based combo (kinda like thalia but that sees more play, because thalia needs to be built around too much, while also hosing them a bit too much too), then one for creature-based combo. Not cards that just absolutely destroy combo like fow, just something that punishes them a little like DRS does to storm, living end, melira, and such.
Wtf?
Fow is just an example of maindeck card that is good against combo that defines the format and makes combo in general worse.
DRS is the same but in a smaller scale (because it just deals with graveyard based combo and is also not as definitive as fow).
Sigh, FOW deals well with fast combo. You dont need Fow to deal with the speed of combo in Modern. You need FOW in Vintage and Legacy because there are degenerate combo that can go off very early in a game, before you can have mana up to counter it with conventional counters.
DRS is just grave yard hate on a stick, and very efficient at it. Since there are more grave yard decks then super fast combo in Modern, it makes DSR seem to be like FOW, but it isnt.
Ok, maybe I explained it wrong. I didn't mean we needed fow, cos Modern surely doesn't. Just wanted to give an example: fow in legacy. The problem with fow in legacy is that it only helps fight combo decks in one color, but this is another topic.
The problem is not drs, its bloodbraid elf. Drs fits in many decks where as bbe goes in a deck made for bbe. If you ban bbe, drs wont be as dominate.
I don't see how they are related at all tbh. Could you explain the relationship?
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The problem is not drs, its bloodbraid elf. Drs fits in many decks where as bbe goes in a deck made for bbe. If you ban bbe, drs wont be as dominate.
well, this is completely wrong. do some people not realize that jund was a deck before rtr came out? and it was only after rtr that jund became the deck?
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I don't see how they are related at all tbh. Could you explain the relationship?
The only deck thats overpowered with drs is jund. And the only reason jund is good is bbe. Im saying drs is not the problem here. If your going to ban one, bbe is the better ban.
Between BBE and DRS, the best ban is not obvious or easy. I concluded BBE is the best, but each one has his own opinion. Others think it's better to ban dark confidant or tarmogoyf, but those cards have existed for too long already and we know they aren't too broken.
Is BBE broken? I don't think so. I'd just ban BBE to level Jund into something not as overpowered, but not because BBE is inherently broken, it'd be just to nerf Jund, which means it could be unbanned in the near future again, like wild nacatl btw.
On the other hand, DRS could prove to be broken, not because of its graveyard-based combo hate, but just because it's a 1/2 birds of paradise (without flying), that also deals 2 to the face or gains you 2 life, on top of that, making it indispensable to play in a midrange competitive deck (but this probably isn't a problem for wizards, after all these years with tarmogoyf).
I'm scared of DRS because of that, but I personally think it's too early to determine if this card has to be banned.
What I know is the format would benefit from nerfing Jund a little, though, and thus, the only option for me to ban from jund this month is BBE.
And there's also another sure thing, and it's that if not banned, DRS will be for midrange G/B decks what tarmogoyf has been to green aggro decks all these years: obligatory. Hell, I even tried it in Rakdos Burn, and it did very well, and will play the deck with him again when GTC releases skullcrack.
I don't think anything in jund should be banned and would be very disapointed if they did ban anything. Bloodbraid is "really good" but by no means overpowered. Deathrite Shaman should also not be banned it is a good, but fair card and can keep graveyard and combo based decks in check. I personally like the current modern metagame, the diversity of decks is great. If wizards honestly thinks that Jund is too powerful then unban something that would help bolster the power level of other decks. Possibly Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
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Current Decks Standard : Bant FlashUWG Modern : JundRBGW Legacy : JundRBG
I don't think anything in jund should be banned and would be very disapointed if they did ban anything. Bloodbraid is "really good" but by no means overpowered. Deathrite Shaman should also not be banned it is a good, but fair card and can keep graveyard and combo based decks in check. I personally like the current modern metagame, the diversity of decks is great. If wizards honestly thinks that Jund is too powerful then unban something that would help bolster the power level of other decks. Possibly Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
Yeah, there's also the possibility of not banning anything from Jund and unbanning some cards, but the question remains, will that be enough or will Jund still dominate? Maybe it's not a problem if Jund dominates 4 more months (or will it be 3?).
If they ban BBE, then Ancestral Vision could unbanned, since the format no longer has people playing Bloodbraid Elf into Ancestral Vision. This would also give U/x control decks a better chance since they now have a reliable card draw spell.
Understand, Dredge is not really a Magic: The Gathering deck. When a card is playable in it, it doesn't mean it's a tournament playable card. It means it's playable in whatever crazy fantasy world that Dredge operates in.
Not very interesting because it's already been discussed multiple times... but everything we say has pretty much already been discussed many times, so whatever. Long time without ban list update is long.
JTMS would be over the top. It dominates in Legacy.
edit, JTMS could potentially be under the 'mistake we made it' category.'
regarding Ancestral Vision:
"The last Modern-legal card that has been making a huge splash in Legacy control decks is Ancestral Vision. While not every Jace, the Mind Sculptor deck in Legacy plays Ancestral Vision, a great many of them do. The combination of Ancestral Vision, Spell Snare, and other counterspells lets control decks draw cards very cheaply without getting behind early on, and that's powerful enough that we feel safer having it banned."
I don't think anything in jund should be banned and would be very disapointed if they did ban anything. Bloodbraid is "really good" but by no means overpowered. Deathrite Shaman should also not be banned it is a good, but fair card and can keep graveyard and combo based decks in check. I personally like the current modern metagame, the diversity of decks is great. If wizards honestly thinks that Jund is too powerful then unban something that would help bolster the power level of other decks. Possibly Jace, the Mind Sculptor.
DRS has too much utility to be "fair" to me. Birds is a fair card, Lavamancer is a fair card, a combination of the 2 is not.
I feel bbe is overpowered. Try playing jund without, Ive done it just to try it, its just like a really bad doran deck without bbe. I think weaker cards have been banned in modern.
JTMS would be over the top. It dominates in Legacy.
It also notably folds to BBE which is currently a 4-of in the most played deck in the format. He also doesn't do well against Bolt. And something dominating in Legacy does not necessarily mean anything about a different format. Abrupt Decay dominates in Legacy, but is bad in Standard.
It also notably folds to BBE which is currently a 4-of in the most played deck in the format. He also doesn't do well against Bolt. And something dominating in Legacy does not necessarily mean anything about a different format. Abrupt Decay dominates in Legacy, but is bad in Standard.
Jtms cant be unbanned without a good reprint. He is rare in legacy, with huge modern demand he could cost $250 a peice easy.
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There are plenty of cards that allow players to build decks that punish greedy mana bases. Blood Moon, Spreading Seas, Fulminator Mage, Boom//Bust, Anathemancer, etc. are all quite effective at this.
An early Blood Moon can completely shut down some decks (I haven't piloted a lot of Blood Moon decks, but I know they can come down pretty early with Simian Spirit Guide and/or rituals).
This could work for some decks, but unfortunately not for the Ux tempo decks that were most hurt by DRS and Abrupt Decay. At least Lightning Bolt works on DRS, but the decks can't do anything against Abrupt Decay aside from maybe shifting to hexproof guys and finding a way to protect them from Liliana.
About Delver:
Honestly delver was Notre Dame IMO. We knew it had its weaknesses, but refused to admit them because it was beating up on ju-co teams. Once abrupt decay came out those weaknesses were exaggerated. The deck had a VD the whole time, but no one really cared until the popular prom queen caught it then it was national news.
This has happened many times in the past in many different formats. Even without new cards being printed. People learn the meta, then they learn how to bust it up. This is typically how it happens although sometimes the meta solution deck ends up becoming the problem itself. such has happened several times in the past most notably Pre-ban standard Caw-blade which was the solution deck to GR/x Valakut decks that were ruling the format at that time.
Looking at the current meta jund is pre-ban standard caw blade. It was made to compete with the aggro decks of the format while it is more than versatile enough to go toe to toe with combo and control.
Part of them problem with beating jund with a control deck is the general weaknesses of the decks you could make. For example the counterspells are all bad, the card draw is all bad, and the ways to win without tapping out during your turn and playing some durdle dude who just dies are extremely narrow and bad. Do control decks exist in the format yeah, but they are all a few cards short of tier 1 status.
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Here is the problem with this. First off, Jund plays abrupt decay & pulse. They can answer rest in peace just fine. Second off, drawing multiple rest in peaces is useless, and makes it so you're essentially discarding a card. Third, rest in peace means you can't be playing a deck that uses the graveyard. Find me a competitive deck in modern that doesn't want to be using the graveyard in some way shape or form. If you're not using the graveyard in modern, you're probably purposefully de-powering your deck just so you get make full value from a sideboard card (rest in peace), which is bad deck design in the first place. Outside niche decks like Martyr, rest in peace isn't a card most decks in the format can afford to play since it screws their own gameplan just as much as their opponents'.
Yeah but his point in favor is that it acts like a maindeck combo hate, which is what Modern and eternal formats usually need (like fow).
If Wotc bans something from Jund because of the Legacy wins, do you really expect Wotc to give Modern FOW? Modern having FOW would make Modern even closer to Legacy lite. I dont see that happening any time soon.
Fow is just an example of maindeck card that is good against combo that defines the format and makes combo in general worse.
DRS is the same but in a smaller scale (because it just deals with graveyard based combo and is also not as definitive as fow).
I like it better like this with little maindeck combo semi-hate cards, we just need more, this time like a white or red one that deals with spell-based combo (kinda like thalia but that sees more play, because thalia needs to be built around too much, while also hosing them a bit too much too), then one for creature-based combo. Not cards that just absolutely destroy combo like fow, just something that punishes them a little like DRS does to storm, living end, melira, and such.
Sigh, FOW deals well with fast combo. You dont need Fow to deal with the speed of combo in Modern. You need FOW in Vintage and Legacy because there are degenerate combo that can go off very early in a game, before you can have mana up to counter it with conventional counters.
DRS is just grave yard hate on a stick, and very efficient at it. Since there are more grave yard decks then super fast combo in Modern, it makes DSR seem to be like FOW, but it isnt.
I don't see how they are related at all tbh. Could you explain the relationship?
well, this is completely wrong. do some people not realize that jund was a deck before rtr came out? and it was only after rtr that jund became the deck?
The only deck thats overpowered with drs is jund. And the only reason jund is good is bbe. Im saying drs is not the problem here. If your going to ban one, bbe is the better ban.
Is BBE broken? I don't think so. I'd just ban BBE to level Jund into something not as overpowered, but not because BBE is inherently broken, it'd be just to nerf Jund, which means it could be unbanned in the near future again, like wild nacatl btw.
On the other hand, DRS could prove to be broken, not because of its graveyard-based combo hate, but just because it's a 1/2 birds of paradise (without flying), that also deals 2 to the face or gains you 2 life, on top of that, making it indispensable to play in a midrange competitive deck (but this probably isn't a problem for wizards, after all these years with tarmogoyf).
I'm scared of DRS because of that, but I personally think it's too early to determine if this card has to be banned.
What I know is the format would benefit from nerfing Jund a little, though, and thus, the only option for me to ban from jund this month is BBE.
And there's also another sure thing, and it's that if not banned, DRS will be for midrange G/B decks what tarmogoyf has been to green aggro decks all these years: obligatory. Hell, I even tried it in Rakdos Burn, and it did very well, and will play the deck with him again when GTC releases skullcrack.
Current Decks
Standard : Bant FlashUWG
Modern : Jund RBGW
Legacy : JundRBG
This, but one million times
If they ban BBE, then Ancestral Vision could unbanned, since the format no longer has people playing Bloodbraid Elf into Ancestral Vision. This would also give U/x control decks a better chance since they now have a reliable card draw spell.
Modern:
Something new every week
Legacy:
Something new everyweek
JTMS would be over the top. It dominates in Legacy.
edit, JTMS could potentially be under the 'mistake we made it' category.'
regarding Ancestral Vision:
"The last Modern-legal card that has been making a huge splash in Legacy control decks is Ancestral Vision. While not every Jace, the Mind Sculptor deck in Legacy plays Ancestral Vision, a great many of them do. The combination of Ancestral Vision, Spell Snare, and other counterspells lets control decks draw cards very cheaply without getting behind early on, and that's powerful enough that we feel safer having it banned."
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Only EDH:
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Jenara, Asura of War: ETB Value Town
Purphoros, God of the Forge: Global Punishment
Xenagos, God of Revels: Ramp, Sneak, & Heavy Hitters
Ghave, Guru of Spores: Dies_to_Doom_Blade's stax list
Edric, Spymaster of Trest: Donald's list
DRS has too much utility to be "fair" to me. Birds is a fair card, Lavamancer is a fair card, a combination of the 2 is not.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
It also notably folds to BBE which is currently a 4-of in the most played deck in the format. He also doesn't do well against Bolt. And something dominating in Legacy does not necessarily mean anything about a different format. Abrupt Decay dominates in Legacy, but is bad in Standard.
URU/R TempoRU
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/ur-counterburn-26-10-13-1/
Standard:
RBB/R MadnessBR
http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/21-07-16-imI-br-vampires/
Caleb Durward:
Jtms cant be unbanned without a good reprint. He is rare in legacy, with huge modern demand he could cost $250 a peice easy.