No, just No. Test the deck with Dread Return and Troll and you will see the incredible incorrect-ness that is your above post....
Who needs the troll?
I can say that I overeacted, but Dredge would break the 4 turn rule very often, would rip apart the meta due it's "unteractivity" and sheer power level, while lots of stuff are not in modern, such as the ones I mentioned above, Cabal Therapy, Ichorid and Brainstorm which are their enablers and protection. But I can assure you that any game that dredge opens with Faithless Looting will be ridiculous. I play enough legacy to know where this goes and the power level there is wayyyyyy bigger, they have Scavenging Ooze there and Dredge is still powerful.
If one discards a Stinkweed on turn 1, dredging 5 cards, there must be a dredger among those 5 cards, now they proceed to play another draw stuff, let's assume it is Wild Guess and let's assume the player discarded a utility spell for it, it will dredge 3 cards, it is perfectly plausible for a dredger appear among those 3 cards, yet dredging another 3 cards, ok, it dredged a total of 11 cards on turn 2, depending on the list he can either have one narcomoeba, one bloodghast or one phantasmagorian, but no bridge yet, then the dredge player proceeds to dredge 5 more cards, then proceeds to flashback it's Faithless Looting, dredging an avarage of 7 cards.
By this turn he has exactly 28 cards on his deck, unless this player is very unlucky, he did win the game
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Standard
Boring...
Modern WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
When pyro314 presented Restricted Modern, I tested Dredge with one Golgari Grave-Troll and one Dread Return. The Grave-Troll didn't increase consistency all that much, but the one DR was stunning. It was consistently stealing wins out of nowhere Game 1 against "One" Skullclamp Affinity and "One" Skullclamp BW Tokens, all because DR'ing Flame-Kin Zealot with 2 Bridge from Below in the graveyard brings out 21 damage in a single turn. And Skullclamp exiles Bridges in its sleep, and those decks effectively ran 5 Skullclamps because they ran 1 Stoneforge Mystic and 4 Steelshaper's Gift. (And yes, Dredge won through active Clamps multiple times.)
One DR Dredge is obviously fragile because a single Spell Pierce likely dooms it, but from this experience, I am convinced multiple DR Dredge would severely warp the format. It can compete with the fastest aggro decks in Modern, it can compete with the fastest combo decks in Modern, and it will win with Bloodghast beats against control.
I then tested Dredge with 4 Grave-Trolls and no DR when someone else presented New Ban List Modern. Dredgevine still couldn't goldfish a win by Turn 5 half the time.
I support Grave-Troll being unbanned because it will do nearly nothing, but I cannot support a DR unban at all.
Maybe it's just personal bias, but I wouldn't mind seeing Bloodbraid Elf go. It doesn't seem like a real card to me, it plays like a half-baked idea that was shoved out without proper testing. Its way too swingy and adds another layer of luck to what's supposed to be a skill based game.
So many mirrors involving decks that run BBE (IE Jund) seem to come down to:
A. Who got the most BBE
B. Who got the edge in discard/removal
C. What each player randomly cascaded into off BBE
Alot of the skill seems removed from the game when mechanics like Cascade are attached to 3/2 haste creatures.
I don't think that dredge would break the turn 4 rule any more often than storm already does. Someone with a math degree needs to do a statistical analysts of the how many cards you would typically need to see in order to combo off.
These cards would be 2 bridge from below, 3 narcomeba/other critters, 1 dread return, 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. This is the best case scenario. 6x 2/2 zombies + Flame-Kin Zealot = 21 damage. One blocker or removal spell and the combo only does 18 damage.
Best case your running 4 dread return, 4 bridge from below, 12-16 creatures, and 4 Flame-Kin Zealot. What is more likely is 3 dread return, 3-4 bridge from below, 10 creatures, 1 Flame-Kin Zealot.
I am not a mathematician, but it seems you would have to see 30 or so cards by turn 3 statistically.(using the likely deck construction) to win. Sure sometimes you get really lucky and flip all of the cards you need from 15-20 cards, but it has to be very unlikely.
Now you have to figure out the odds that you can flip 30 cards by turn 3. This is even more math intensive to figure out, but in my fishing it just doesn't happen very often. At least this deck can easily fish which means you really only need 1 person to test it.
Of course this is just one argument about the deck, but it fails to the same things that storm decks do other than discard. It also losses to creature decks. We have pretty good hate in the form of dryad militant, deathrite shaman, surgical extraction, echoing truth, and tormod's crypt. As a matter of fact volcanic fallout stops the deck dead in its tracks and it can't even be countered.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
I don't think that dredge would break the turn 4 rule any more often than storm already does. Someone with a math degree needs to do a statistical analysts of the how many cards you would typically need to see in order to combo off.
These cards would be 2 bridge from below, 3 narcomeba/other critters, 1 dread return, 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. This is the best case scenario. 6x 2/2 zombies + Flame-Kin Zealot = 21 damage. One blocker or removal spell and the combo only does 18 damage.
Best case your running 4 dread return, 4 bridge from below, 12-16 creatures, and 4 Flame-Kin Zealot. What is more likely is 3 dread return, 3-4 bridge from below, 10 creatures, 1 Flame-Kin Zealot.
I am not a mathematician, but it seems you would have to see 30 or so cards by turn 3 statistically.(using the likely deck construction) to win. Sure sometimes you get really lucky and flip all of the cards you need from 15-20 cards, but it has to be very unlikely.
Now you have to figure out the odds that you can flip 30 cards by turn 3. This is even more math intensive to figure out, but in my fishing it just doesn't happen very often. At least this deck can easily fish which means you really only need 1 person to test it.
Of course this is just one argument about the deck, but it fails to the same things that storm decks do other than discard. It also losses to creature decks. We have pretty good hate in the form of dryad militant, deathrite shaman, surgical extraction, echoing truth, and tormod's crypt. As a matter of fact volcanic fallout stops the deck dead in its tracks and it can't even be countered.
Full disclosure, I am a Legacy Dredge player and I have played multiple builds of the deck, from the LED builds to the manaless builds and most the others.
Dredge would be fine if storm and twin are alright. Yes it would oops into a turn 3, maybe a turn 2 win now and then, but not consistently. There is plenty of GY hate in the format to shut Dredge down in multiple colors, even colorless. It would be a meta deck like eggs is. It might catch a meta once a year, if that.
Full disclosure, I am a Legacy Dredge player and I have played multiple builds of the deck, from the LED builds to the manaless builds and most the others.
Dredge would be fine if storm and twin are alright. Yes it would oops into a turn 3, maybe a turn 2 win now and then, but not consistently. There is plenty of GY hate in the format to shut Dredge down in multiple colors, even colorless. It would be a meta deck like eggs is. It might catch a meta once a year, if that.
I am not even sure that a turn 2 win is possible. I am also not a dredge player as I generally hate dredge, but the deck seems fair. It might even weaken the holds of jund since it is one of the few decks that is mostly immune to discard.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
I checked, and I pulled off a turn 2 with a test in wherein grave troll and dread return was unbanned. Twice. In manaless Dredge. There goes DnT's grip on everyones mana base.
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"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
I checked, and I pulled off a turn 2 with a test in wherein grave troll and dread return was unbanned. Twice. In manaless Dredge. There goes DnT's grip on everyones mana base.
Of course you pulled a turn 2 win out in legacy. Now dump the putrid imp, break though, ect and try it with modern cards even dread return and grave troll. I am quite sure turn 3 is the earliest, but the deck usually wins on turn 5.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
I just seriously don't get JTMS ban with the t4 or greater theory. IIRC he was made specifically to hold down the deck which is doing the best right now (Jund). With dreadbore, I don't see that happening.
Preordain will not be unbanned and it wouldn't even help Control as much as it would help combo.
Ancestral Vision or Bitterblossom seem more likely. I'd definitely consider unbanning Jace, but he's just too expensive - and WotC want's to make the format easier accessable so that probably won't happen.
I just seriously don't get JTMS ban with the t4 or greater theory. IIRC he was made specifically to hold down the deck which is doing the best right now (Jund). With dreadbore, I don't see that happening.
Yeah, $90 is way too expensive when there are multiple $1000 decks.
Thing is, that's Jace's current price, and that's when he's legal in only Legacy and Vintage. If he costs that much now, his price would go up even higher if he were Modern legal and would almost certainly bypass Tarmogoyf to become the most expensive card in the format.
I suppose they could unban him and throw him into Modern Masters, but I don't think they'd want to do that. If they unban him but later find him to be too powerful, then they'd have to re-ban him, at which point it'd probably be too late to change Modern Masters if they put him in (if it isn't already too late to change it).
Modern Masters doesn't go up to WWK, so Jace won't get reprinted. And the no consistent t3 is only one of the few guidelines Wizards goes by for the banlist. They banned Jace because of his power level, and the fact that he can warp archetypes around him (similar to Tarmogoyf).
Modern Masters doesn't go up to WWK, so Jace won't get reprinted. And the no consistent t3 is only one of the few guidelines Wizards goes by for the banlist. They banned Jace because of his power level, and the fact that he can warp archetypes around him (similar to Tarmogoyf).
Call me crazy, but spending 4 mana to brainstorm then losing my jace to a lightning bolt doesn't seem that strong. The fact that jace is bad against every combo deck, every aggro deck(really only affinity exist, but whatever), and is bad against jund seems to me to be a big damper on his power level. At worst it would make jund start running either dreadbore or maelstrom pulse instead of terminate/abrupt decay which means it would be slightly weaker to the rest of the meta....which would probably be good for modern in general.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Call me crazy, but spending 4 mana to brainstorm then losing my jace to a lightning bolt doesn't seem that strong. The fact that jace is bad against every combo deck, every aggro deck(really only affinity exist, but whatever), and is bad against jund seems to me to be a big damper on his power level. At worst it would make jund start running either dreadbore or maelstrom pulse instead of terminate/abrupt decay which means it would be slightly weaker to the rest of the meta....which would probably be good for modern in general.
Completely agree, he would shift the meta, but in a positive direction. Not just UW Control mirrors all day like standard was, plus that was sfm a lot of the time too.
Call me crazy, but spending 4 mana to brainstorm then losing my jace to a lightning bolt doesn't seem that strong. The fact that jace is bad against every combo deck, every aggro deck(really only affinity exist, but whatever), and is bad against jund seems to me to be a big damper on his power level. At worst it would make jund start running either dreadbore or maelstrom pulse instead of terminate/abrupt decay which means it would be slightly weaker to the rest of the meta....which would probably be good for modern in general.
Yet it happens in legacy every day inspite of this. I agree that jace can probably come off the ban list, but it isnt going to hinder the jund match up at all. Bouncing a BBE is totally fine by them. Also I can remember the days when jace was 20 bucks and lower, BECAUSE jund held him down. In fact because of junds existance do I say jace is a safe unban.
yeah, jace didn't become good in a u/w shell until jund rotated. he's perfectly okay to come off, but they won't, just because of the stigma attached to him.
in other news, i've been testing bitterblossom enabled fae for a few days, and its definitely strong. but it takes a lot of match up knowledge, since dropping it on turn 2 is not always the best play. in a slower meta, its really really good, but given how fast the format may be, its kept in check.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Yet it happens in legacy every day inspite of this. I agree that jace can probably come off the ban list, but it isnt going to hinder the jund match up at all. Bouncing a BBE is totally fine by them. Also I can remember the days when jace was 20 bucks and lower, BECAUSE jund held him down. In fact because of junds existance do I say jace is a safe unban.
jace is better in legacy because of force and daze oh and you can play him a bit quicker.
I think in junds current iteration they would struggle with him quite a bit. Remember the standard jund was slightly more aggressive and also had blightning. Forcing jund to run slower answers just to deal with jace might just weaken them a bit. Not a lot, but I think most of us will take what we can get.
yeah, jace didn't become good in a u/w shell until jund rotated. he's perfectly okay to come off, but they won't, just because of the stigma attached to him.
in other news, i've been testing bitterblossom enabled fae for a few days, and its definitely strong. but it takes a lot of match up knowledge, since dropping it on turn 2 is not always the best play. in a slower meta, its really really good, but given how fast the format may be, its kept in check.
fae are really strong against combo decks, but really bad against jund. I am not quite sure if having them in the format will help since they might hurt the combo decks that beat jund. However if faeries does get big RDWs will come back into full bloom.
"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
Yet it happens in legacy every day inspite of this. I agree that jace can probably come off the ban list, but it isnt going to hinder the jund match up at all. Bouncing a BBE is totally fine by them. Also I can remember the days when jace was 20 bucks and lower, BECAUSE jund held him down. In fact because of junds existance do I say jace is a safe unban.
I'm unaware of Jace going below close to $20 while in standard. Hell, at one point he hit over $200 iirc.
Of course you pulled a turn 2 win out in legacy. Now dump the putrid imp, break though, ect and try it with modern cards even dread return and grave troll. I am quite sure turn 3 is the earliest, but the deck usually wins on turn 5.
Believe it or not, dredge was completely playable in extended without oddyssey block enablers, Hedron Crab/Drowned Rusilika were enablers for the deck, the deck was complete with turn 2/3 wins and being completely uninteractive g1, as recently as 2009.
Believe it or not, dredge was completely playable in extended without oddyssey block enablers, Hedron Crab/Drowned Rusilika were enablers for the deck, the deck was complete with turn 2/3 wins and being completely uninteractive g1, as recently as 2009.
came as a shock to me when I found this out
Of course I knew that it saw some play. About 10 top 8s all season is really so dominant that it must be banned right? It also never top 8'ed a GP that year coming best 16 against a field that was not prepared for it.(no decks even had sideboard hate.
The reason dredge was good where those cards from odyssey block. The problem with hedron crab is that if they kill it you almost can't win until turn 6-7.(I played the deck. Faithless looting makes it slightly better, but slightly better than fnm tier isn't much)
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
fae are really strong against combo decks, but really bad against jund. I am not quite sure if having them in the format will help since they might hurt the combo decks that beat jund. However if faeries does get big RDWs will come back into full bloom.
not exactly sure how it'd fare against jund. on one hand, operating at basically instant speed except for discard will help. straight up discard will also help, as well as playing black for removal. disfigure does kill shaman dead. plus you get repeated value with bitterblossom for all of jund's 1 for 1 removal.
but jund is still stupidly solid. lingering souls laughs at bitterblossom in terms of immediate impact. and rdw would make a good comeback if fae became popular. but i think the deck is good enough that a skilled player piloting u/b fae could make it out on top against rdw.
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I speak in sarcasm because calling people ******* ******** is not allowed.
Of course you pulled a turn 2 win out in legacy. Now dump the putrid imp, break though, ect and try it with modern cards even dread return and grave troll. I am quite sure turn 3 is the earliest, but the deck usually wins on turn 5.
Also, you just need a few critters, DR and a big bad fatty to win the game, you don't need to deal 20 damage in order to win, against most decks Iona naming the key color is a victory already.
and as I said before, there is hate on legacy and it doesnt stop Dredge
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Standard
Boring...
Modern WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
and as I said before, there is hate on legacy and it doesnt stop Dredge
And when is the last time dredge placed in legacy? How many times has it even made top 8? What good is 80-90% G1 win when G2-3 is 20%? The hate stops dredge, and only when people start getting lax will dredge make a surprise placing and then it gets put in the corner again.
Faeries with bitterblossom and without vision would not be tier1 IMO. With both maybe.
But with faeries in the meta decks like storm would lose win%. And jund would increase its win%, I think faeries is a good MU for jund... maybe I'm wrong.
Tokens with bitterblossom tier 1.5 max.
Faeries with bitterblossom and without vision would not be tier1 IMO. With both maybe.
But with faeries in the meta decks like storm would lose win%. And jund would increase its win%, I think faeries is a good MU for jund... maybe I'm wrong.
Tokens with bitterblossom tier 1.5 max.
this was my thought. I just don't know what beats jund but doesn't lose to combo. Tokens supposedly beats jund, but doesn't fair so well against combo.
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"And the day will come when the mystical generation of Jesus, by the supreme being as his father in the womb of a virgin will be classed with the fable of the generation of Minerva in the brain of Jupiter."
And when is the last time dredge placed in legacy? How many times has it even made top 8? What good is 80-90% G1 win when G2-3 is 20%? The hate stops dredge, and only when people start getting lax will dredge make a surprise placing and then it gets put in the corner again.
Okay so not top 8 but given SCG events routinely have 100+, that's a pretty strong showing.
and then there is a one Mr. Hollywood from MTGthesource whom has made several top8'swith the Manaless Variant (don't really know if that matters given that will be near impossible to port but it's also the weakest in dealing with hate generally)
I can find more if you want but I think you get my point
Like Storm, bad players lose to hate, Good players can actually (shockingly) play through it, having watched Dredge beat a well time Relic of Progenitus
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weaboo weaboo weaboo weaboo weaboo weaboo
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Who needs the troll?
I can say that I overeacted, but Dredge would break the 4 turn rule very often, would rip apart the meta due it's "unteractivity" and sheer power level, while lots of stuff are not in modern, such as the ones I mentioned above, Cabal Therapy, Ichorid and Brainstorm which are their enablers and protection. But I can assure you that any game that dredge opens with Faithless Looting will be ridiculous. I play enough legacy to know where this goes and the power level there is wayyyyyy bigger, they have Scavenging Ooze there and Dredge is still powerful.
If one discards a Stinkweed on turn 1, dredging 5 cards, there must be a dredger among those 5 cards, now they proceed to play another draw stuff, let's assume it is Wild Guess and let's assume the player discarded a utility spell for it, it will dredge 3 cards, it is perfectly plausible for a dredger appear among those 3 cards, yet dredging another 3 cards, ok, it dredged a total of 11 cards on turn 2, depending on the list he can either have one narcomoeba, one bloodghast or one phantasmagorian, but no bridge yet, then the dredge player proceeds to dredge 5 more cards, then proceeds to flashback it's Faithless Looting, dredging an avarage of 7 cards.
By this turn he has exactly 28 cards on his deck, unless this player is very unlucky, he did win the game
Boring...
Modern
WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB
RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH
XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED
GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
One DR Dredge is obviously fragile because a single Spell Pierce likely dooms it, but from this experience, I am convinced multiple DR Dredge would severely warp the format. It can compete with the fastest aggro decks in Modern, it can compete with the fastest combo decks in Modern, and it will win with Bloodghast beats against control.
I then tested Dredge with 4 Grave-Trolls and no DR when someone else presented New Ban List Modern. Dredgevine still couldn't goldfish a win by Turn 5 half the time.
I support Grave-Troll being unbanned because it will do nearly nothing, but I cannot support a DR unban at all.
So many mirrors involving decks that run BBE (IE Jund) seem to come down to:
A. Who got the most BBE
B. Who got the edge in discard/removal
C. What each player randomly cascaded into off BBE
Alot of the skill seems removed from the game when mechanics like Cascade are attached to 3/2 haste creatures.
These cards would be 2 bridge from below, 3 narcomeba/other critters, 1 dread return, 1 Flame-Kin Zealot. This is the best case scenario. 6x 2/2 zombies + Flame-Kin Zealot = 21 damage. One blocker or removal spell and the combo only does 18 damage.
Best case your running 4 dread return, 4 bridge from below, 12-16 creatures, and 4 Flame-Kin Zealot. What is more likely is 3 dread return, 3-4 bridge from below, 10 creatures, 1 Flame-Kin Zealot.
I am not a mathematician, but it seems you would have to see 30 or so cards by turn 3 statistically.(using the likely deck construction) to win. Sure sometimes you get really lucky and flip all of the cards you need from 15-20 cards, but it has to be very unlikely.
Now you have to figure out the odds that you can flip 30 cards by turn 3. This is even more math intensive to figure out, but in my fishing it just doesn't happen very often. At least this deck can easily fish which means you really only need 1 person to test it.
Of course this is just one argument about the deck, but it fails to the same things that storm decks do other than discard. It also losses to creature decks. We have pretty good hate in the form of dryad militant, deathrite shaman, surgical extraction, echoing truth, and tormod's crypt. As a matter of fact volcanic fallout stops the deck dead in its tracks and it can't even be countered.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
Full disclosure, I am a Legacy Dredge player and I have played multiple builds of the deck, from the LED builds to the manaless builds and most the others.
Dredge would be fine if storm and twin are alright. Yes it would oops into a turn 3, maybe a turn 2 win now and then, but not consistently. There is plenty of GY hate in the format to shut Dredge down in multiple colors, even colorless. It would be a meta deck like eggs is. It might catch a meta once a year, if that.
I am not even sure that a turn 2 win is possible. I am also not a dredge player as I generally hate dredge, but the deck seems fair. It might even weaken the holds of jund since it is one of the few decks that is mostly immune to discard.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Of course you pulled a turn 2 win out in legacy. Now dump the putrid imp, break though, ect and try it with modern cards even dread return and grave troll. I am quite sure turn 3 is the earliest, but the deck usually wins on turn 5.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
http://magic.tcgplayer.com/db/deck.asp?deck_id=1072398
Yeah, $90 is way too expensive when there are multiple $1000 decks.
Rules Advisor: 9/5/11
Old, sparsely updated because of above: Trade with me!
Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
I suppose they could unban him and throw him into Modern Masters, but I don't think they'd want to do that. If they unban him but later find him to be too powerful, then they'd have to re-ban him, at which point it'd probably be too late to change Modern Masters if they put him in (if it isn't already too late to change it).
Call me crazy, but spending 4 mana to brainstorm then losing my jace to a lightning bolt doesn't seem that strong. The fact that jace is bad against every combo deck, every aggro deck(really only affinity exist, but whatever), and is bad against jund seems to me to be a big damper on his power level. At worst it would make jund start running either dreadbore or maelstrom pulse instead of terminate/abrupt decay which means it would be slightly weaker to the rest of the meta....which would probably be good for modern in general.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
Completely agree, he would shift the meta, but in a positive direction. Not just UW Control mirrors all day like standard was, plus that was sfm a lot of the time too.
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Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
Yet it happens in legacy every day inspite of this. I agree that jace can probably come off the ban list, but it isnt going to hinder the jund match up at all. Bouncing a BBE is totally fine by them. Also I can remember the days when jace was 20 bucks and lower, BECAUSE jund held him down. In fact because of junds existance do I say jace is a safe unban.
in other news, i've been testing bitterblossom enabled fae for a few days, and its definitely strong. but it takes a lot of match up knowledge, since dropping it on turn 2 is not always the best play. in a slower meta, its really really good, but given how fast the format may be, its kept in check.
jace is better in legacy because of force and daze oh and you can play him a bit quicker.
I think in junds current iteration they would struggle with him quite a bit. Remember the standard jund was slightly more aggressive and also had blightning. Forcing jund to run slower answers just to deal with jace might just weaken them a bit. Not a lot, but I think most of us will take what we can get.
fae are really strong against combo decks, but really bad against jund. I am not quite sure if having them in the format will help since they might hurt the combo decks that beat jund. However if faeries does get big RDWs will come back into full bloom.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
I'm unaware of Jace going below close to $20 while in standard. Hell, at one point he hit over $200 iirc.
Rules Advisor: 9/5/11
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Weirdly, standard has been BAD since JTMS was banned, it hasn't been fun, nor healthy since.
Believe it or not, dredge was completely playable in extended without oddyssey block enablers, Hedron Crab/Drowned Rusilika were enablers for the deck, the deck was complete with turn 2/3 wins and being completely uninteractive g1, as recently as 2009.
came as a shock to me when I found this out
Of course I knew that it saw some play. About 10 top 8s all season is really so dominant that it must be banned right? It also never top 8'ed a GP that year coming best 16 against a field that was not prepared for it.(no decks even had sideboard hate.
The reason dredge was good where those cards from odyssey block. The problem with hedron crab is that if they kill it you almost can't win until turn 6-7.(I played the deck. Faithless looting makes it slightly better, but slightly better than fnm tier isn't much)
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
not exactly sure how it'd fare against jund. on one hand, operating at basically instant speed except for discard will help. straight up discard will also help, as well as playing black for removal. disfigure does kill shaman dead. plus you get repeated value with bitterblossom for all of jund's 1 for 1 removal.
but jund is still stupidly solid. lingering souls laughs at bitterblossom in terms of immediate impact. and rdw would make a good comeback if fae became popular. but i think the deck is good enough that a skilled player piloting u/b fae could make it out on top against rdw.
There are modern versions of those enablers
Burning Inquiry, Dangerous Wager.
Also, you just need a few critters, DR and a big bad fatty to win the game, you don't need to deal 20 damage in order to win, against most decks Iona naming the key color is a victory already.
and as I said before, there is hate on legacy and it doesnt stop Dredge
Boring...
Modern
WGBJunk:Feel the Rhinos WGB
RWUAmerican Taxes RWU
EDH
XKarn and the Living StaxX RETIRED
GWURoon of The Hidden RealmGWU
And when is the last time dredge placed in legacy? How many times has it even made top 8? What good is 80-90% G1 win when G2-3 is 20%? The hate stops dredge, and only when people start getting lax will dredge make a surprise placing and then it gets put in the corner again.
But with faeries in the meta decks like storm would lose win%. And jund would increase its win%, I think faeries is a good MU for jund... maybe I'm wrong.
Tokens with bitterblossom tier 1.5 max.
this was my thought. I just don't know what beats jund but doesn't lose to combo. Tokens supposedly beats jund, but doesn't fair so well against combo.
Thomas Jefferson
Jefferson's letter to John Adams, April 11 1823
Courtesy of Ms. Feline
Okay so not top 8 but given SCG events routinely have 100+, that's a pretty strong showing.
and then there is a one Mr. Hollywood from MTGthesource whom has made several top 8's with the Manaless Variant (don't really know if that matters given that will be near impossible to port but it's also the weakest in dealing with hate generally)
I can find more if you want but I think you get my point
Like Storm, bad players lose to hate, Good players can actually (shockingly) play through it, having watched Dredge beat a well time Relic of Progenitus