I don't mind if people dislike my opinions. Half the time I end up being wrong anyway. However I have found that being wrong and learning from it improves your overall gameplay and deck building skills.
I was only saying that you were starting down slipknots path. You aren't 1/10 as bad as slipknot was. INS had some really comical battles with Slipknot. You two just seem to bicker with one another right now. I also was simply bringing up my initial experience with you. You seem to be getting better with accepting others opinions.
Your points are also all valid. However I don't look at it as remove this card for this card or that sort of idea. I look at it more as what cards can work inside the framework of my 75. I have the 3 different versions of the deck in my thinking. For UR Stock Storm it is kinda a push to get IV in the list without removing part of the engine, or Remand. I personally have loved Remand from the start of Modern, if you have time look into some of the earlier posts in this thread.
What bothers me is that you think I am the problem here. When its been clear on multiple occasions that INS is just being defensive and sees disagreements over card choices/viability as a personal attack.
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Modern (I collect the format):
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron WDeath and Taxes WSoul Sisters RWG Pod Combo URSplinter Twin URStorm RBurn
Increasing Vengeance pros:
- Hardly ever a dead draw on combo turns
- Immediately useable, doesnt need to be 'turned on'
- Can be flashed back for more reward
- Is an instant that can be searched out for via Peer
- Good discard target
Cons:
- Less powerful than ascension
- Can become a dead card in very rare situations due to nothing profitable to copy
- Can be exiled once in the grave
- Can't copy opponents spells
tl;dr Huntmaster will see play in sideboard, rarely mainboard, and if you disagree, sig this and feel free to rub it in my face when the time comes. 'Cause I want him to be maindeckable.
If something I said was not clean, specifically point it out. If someone isn't going to use any logic with his arguments, I'm going to bring it to attention. It's not about being right or wrong with a hypothesis; it's about the method taken to reach conclusions. I can't possibly be the only one who slept through this concept when it was taught in 7th grade.
Oh please, I've taken upper level logic in college and taught myself javascript while bored at home in 6th grade. I understand critical thinking skills. Clearly my lack of reasons is not the reason you said what you did as evidenced by your other snide remarks at UnderwaterGuy, among other things, and the times you were also snide in response to other posts where I actually DID give reasons. Get over yourself.
Oh yes, and its actually not about the methods alone. If you start with completely faulty premises it doesn't matter what method you take. And it is about having the right or wrong hypothesis. The guy who is able to produce faulty conclusions based on solid and beautiful methods will have tons of trouble finding someone to buy his ideas. But a guy who uses the wrong methods and gets the right results anyways? He still got the right answer, and even if it was dumb luck, he still profits from being correct. Apparently you are the only one that slept through those 7th grade lessons.
Cons:
- Less powerful than ascension
- Can become a dead card in very rare situations due to nothing profitable to copy
- Can be exiled once in the grave
- Can't copy opponents spells
You forgot "must pay two mana at time of use".
In addition to that its not "rare" for it to be dead. There are tons of common situations that come to mind where it is pretty dead. Tons more where it isn't, but enough where it is to not be considered "rare".
In addition to that its not "rare" for it to be dead. There are tons of common situations that come to mind where it is pretty dead. Tons more where it isn't, but enough where it is to not be considered "rare".
I have been playing 2 in the Ascension build and the doubling of a doubling spell is plain silly. Still 2 seems to be the threshold for this card. You should be happy since it has kept me from going all rainbow colored. It simply adds another layer to the deck that wasn't there before. I have seen this card go from another Desperate Ritual to ending as a 10 mana for 2 mana card. At that point your mana issues simply end and giving you tons of gas in spots where you could fizzle. I love that extra mana to flash PiF back giving me a shot at another chain.
Though I do agree that it can be less than ideal at times. I simply am weighing the pro's versus the con's. So far the pro's are higher than the con's. It is kinda like Thoughtseize. Is it really powerful when it works? Yes very much so. Is it painful to use? Again in certain games yes. Is it dead when topdecked? Yes just as Seize can be. I play so many different decks that my card evaluation is different then a purists. I am willing to try anything until I get that 75 that make sense to me.
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In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
Can we please quit discussing basic logic? We're on the internet here. We should be glad we aren't just "TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" all day every day here, with people demanding "Moar Bloo Eyez Wite Draken" in our storm decks, not comparing people to Slipknot. There's a phrase I heard from my fourth-grade teacher, "Sure, he started it, but it takes two to have a fight." Lets all just calm down, stop attacking each other, and get back to the discussion. We're all reasonable, mature people here, we should be able to have a dispute about a card's value without sniping at each other.
Speaking as someone who plays Increasing Vengeance, I've found it to be an incredible powerhouse, and a critical piece of the engine that makes the deck tick. That said, I think a large part of that is that it's never a dead card: it's a one of, so you almost never draw it, so usually when you see it, it's part of a Gifts Pile, where it's being used to perfectly optimize your hand and graveyard to kill your opponent with a lethal Past in Flames. I only have it when I want it, basically.
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Go to my blog, Musings of the False God, for in-depth guides playing the game, from the building blocks of deck design to deceiving your opponent through clever game play!
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Can we please quit discussing basic logic? We're on the internet here. We should be glad we aren't just "TROLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOLOL!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!" all day every day here, with people demanding "Moar Bloo Eyez Wite Draken" in our storm decks, not comparing people to Slipknot. There's a phrase I heard from my fourth-grade teacher, "Sure, he started it, but it takes two to have a fight." Lets all just calm down, stop attacking each other, and get back to the discussion. We're all reasonable, mature people here, we should be able to have a dispute about a card's value without sniping at each other.
Speaking as someone who plays Increasing Vengeance, I've found it to be an incredible powerhouse, and a critical piece of the engine that makes the deck tick. That said, I think a large part of that is that it's never a dead card: it's a one of, so you almost never draw it, so usually when you see it, it's part of a Gifts Pile, where it's being used to perfectly optimize your hand and graveyard to kill your opponent with a lethal Past in Flames. I only have it when I want it, basically.
Sorry, but INS was the one who snapped here without provocation. Sorry, but your strange assertion that it doesn't matter who started it, is just wrong. But hey, keep lecturing about "maturity" on an internet forum. Its a great way to appear holier-than-thou.
Oh yes, and "it takes two to fight", So if a guy punches you, then you're just gonna let him go at? Yeah right. I know this is an internet forum, there is no physical harm, im being too serious business, blah blah blah, but im just god damn tired of people on here getting offended because I don't agree with their card choices. Okay? Does that make sense to you?
Why do people even post here about card choices if all they are looking for is someone to agree?
Though I do agree that it can be less than ideal at times. I simply am weighing the pro's versus the con's. So far the pro's are higher than the con's.
I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree, cause I don't see the cons of IV outweighing the pros.
I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree, cause I don't see the cons of IV outweighing the pros.
You don't see it because you are too closed minded to even give it a shot and test it out. If you tested 3 matches with it in your deck as like a 3-of, you would truly see how powerful it really is.
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Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
I think I-Never-Smile actually has a pretty good estimation of the Vengeance. Saying you'll 'never pay the flashback' is pretty silly - it isn't the best way to use it, but in some cases the 5 cc flashback might actually end up being useful, as, described by him.
This card is amazing. Using it just to copy a Manamorphose is really good and flashbacking it for RR to copy seething song is just boss after you've cast your Past in Flames. Don't even get me started on Ascension shenanigans.
Jus to be sure, if we copy grapeshot with increasing veangance we don't copy the storm effect ? We will made only 1 damage because we don' cast the spell.
Yes, IV on grapeshot only copies the spell, not the storm. I can see IV being a great 1-of, but only in decks that run Epic Experiment as one of the storm win-cons. Being able to double experiment for 10 seems pretty good to me.
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WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
- Hardly ever a dead draw on combo turns
- Immediately useable, doesnt need to be 'turned on'
- Can be flashed back for more reward
- Is an instant that can be searched out for via Peer
- Good discard target
Cons:
- Less powerful than ascension
- Can become a dead card in very rare situations due to nothing profitable to copy
- Can be exiled once in the grave
- Can't copy opponents spells
Let me know if I missed anything.
Karn, Silver Golem EDH Deck Link to my deck.
Oh yes, and its actually not about the methods alone. If you start with completely faulty premises it doesn't matter what method you take. And it is about having the right or wrong hypothesis. The guy who is able to produce faulty conclusions based on solid and beautiful methods will have tons of trouble finding someone to buy his ideas. But a guy who uses the wrong methods and gets the right results anyways? He still got the right answer, and even if it was dumb luck, he still profits from being correct. Apparently you are the only one that slept through those 7th grade lessons.
You forgot "must pay two mana at time of use".
In addition to that its not "rare" for it to be dead. There are tons of common situations that come to mind where it is pretty dead. Tons more where it isn't, but enough where it is to not be considered "rare".
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
I have been playing 2 in the Ascension build and the doubling of a doubling spell is plain silly. Still 2 seems to be the threshold for this card. You should be happy since it has kept me from going all rainbow colored. It simply adds another layer to the deck that wasn't there before. I have seen this card go from another Desperate Ritual to ending as a 10 mana for 2 mana card. At that point your mana issues simply end and giving you tons of gas in spots where you could fizzle. I love that extra mana to flash PiF back giving me a shot at another chain.
Though I do agree that it can be less than ideal at times. I simply am weighing the pro's versus the con's. So far the pro's are higher than the con's. It is kinda like Thoughtseize. Is it really powerful when it works? Yes very much so. Is it painful to use? Again in certain games yes. Is it dead when topdecked? Yes just as Seize can be. I play so many different decks that my card evaluation is different then a purists. I am willing to try anything until I get that 75 that make sense to me.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
Speaking as someone who plays Increasing Vengeance, I've found it to be an incredible powerhouse, and a critical piece of the engine that makes the deck tick. That said, I think a large part of that is that it's never a dead card: it's a one of, so you almost never draw it, so usually when you see it, it's part of a Gifts Pile, where it's being used to perfectly optimize your hand and graveyard to kill your opponent with a lethal Past in Flames. I only have it when I want it, basically.
You may also know me as the guy in the art of Dark Confidant. No, not Bob Maher, the OTHER one.
Oh yes, and "it takes two to fight", So if a guy punches you, then you're just gonna let him go at? Yeah right. I know this is an internet forum, there is no physical harm, im being too serious business, blah blah blah, but im just god damn tired of people on here getting offended because I don't agree with their card choices. Okay? Does that make sense to you?
Why do people even post here about card choices if all they are looking for is someone to agree?
I guess we are just gonna have to agree to disagree, cause I don't see the cons of IV outweighing the pros.
WURDelver
[/MANA]MANA]R[/MANA]GTron
WDeath and Taxes
WSoul Sisters
RWG Pod Combo
URSplinter Twin
URStorm
RBurn
You don't see it because you are too closed minded to even give it a shot and test it out. If you tested 3 matches with it in your deck as like a 3-of, you would truly see how powerful it really is.
Thanks to Rivenor for the signature and XenoNinja for the Avi!
Quotes:
Quite possibly be my favorite card in the deck.
Yes, IV on grapeshot only copies the spell, not the storm. I can see IV being a great 1-of, but only in decks that run Epic Experiment as one of the storm win-cons. Being able to double experiment for 10 seems pretty good to me.