If your using snakes, not tapping out your green helps. My build used day over Damnation and ***, simply because of the fact that I was running quite a bit of regen. Snakes, a thrun, 2 lotleth.
Yea, I had thought about Troll Ascetic in my first list for similar reasons. The point is sound, though, that against a deck with sweepers you first best strategy is to not overextend. That means playing a much slower game and not tapping out.
A few notes:
The Obliterator is pretty hard to cast. Given I don't have my Godless Shrines or Urborg yet, he's still pretty difficult. I'm in the market for a good beater, and will try the Obliterator again when I manage to get my landbase fixed, but I've got eyes on Loxodon Smiter, Thrun, the Last Troll, and Troll Ascetic. I haven't tried the snakes out, so I haven't a clue on how well it'd go, but I'll give that a shot when I can.
Kiku has actually been pretty decent for repeated creature removal. Takes care of most things that square off with their power and toughness, but it's very mana intensive so that doesn't shine till later in the mid game (which is what I'm after anyway. It's great when you get it online. Given it's filling the space Liliana should be in. It's filling in shoes fairly decently. Instant speed removal is always a plus.
Pretty clear cut upgrades with Bob over Arena, Witness over Treasured Find, and Nighthawk over Syphon Life (which actually was pretty good, but I like the bodies).
I don't want to stick it out with Nighthawk though, the whole business of it actually needing to go into the red zone to send some life back (which really is the only role it's supposed to be playing) is problematic. Somuchcouldhappenbeforethat. Kitchen Finks however delivers as he arrives. Not to mention if they're going to kill it, they need to do so twice. But I have run into Obstinate Baloth whom I previously presumed inexistent, and it got me considering him considering it's a 4/4 that gains 4 ETB. Dodges bolt, abrupt, inquisition, and runs over small creatures. Doubling as both lifegain and a beater.
I don't know if I'd rather run him or Finks. Maybe both?
Then there's Skinshifter. He's new, so I wont say much, but I like the flexibility. Trampler 4/4. Evasive 2/2. Beefy 0/8. That last one made me think about Doran. But Witness, Finks, Bob disagree.
There's a tournament this November 4 coming up, if I can manage, I'll try to get into it. By then I should have Bob's 3-4 to replace those Signatures. I find it awkward having extra bob's in hand when there's one in play. I guess this is where Liliana fits in well.
Anyone have some thoughts to share, I'd be glad to hear them out!
P.S.
I'm on the fence with Grisly Salvage. It's absolutely great when i'm flipping over 5 lands. Or even good stuff + witness. But I once flipped over 2 Abrupts, 2 Dismembers, and a land, and that made me cringe. Given that it's near even you'll flip spells and creatures alike. But it fits a role the deck feels to need at times. Digging. Would more witnesses make this better? Or are there better options for digging?
If it looks Doranish it's because I was originally running doran and harbinger but concluded they suck in current meta and just added more liliana / sculler. I tried called of the pride Ajani but knight errant is still better junk card imo
U can run obliterator but it requires dropping the white or running fetid Heath and twilight mire or the innistrad duals along with shrine and tomb. Or you can do an Eva green style bg rock the. It's pretty easy to run obliterator. I don't know if he's better than tomb stalker tho. I try a 2/2 split in my bg build.
With regards to digging. Junk doesn't usually dig with the sole exception of dark confidant and senses diving top in legacy. The time you waste digging with salvage you could have dropped a sculler, or a gofy, or a bob and put your opponent on he defensive. Salvage is a good card but I don't see it in junk at least not without dedicating a more grave based shell where you can get double value out of it. Such a deck might run lingering souls, bloodghast, Hakkon, nameless inversion, life from the loam, knight of the reliquary. See in that list you don't care if you flip sorcery with salvage
Another great card that i havent seen ppl post on here yet and has done great things for me is zealous persecution its a instant speed pump and makes tokens look silly also i wouldnt even play this deck in modern without thalia she is just that good in modern
Thalia, yes. Reliquary, yes. Persecution yes. Amazing what a great pool we have.
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"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
So it's been a while since I've put out an update here. No recent tournaments have been gone to for testing unfortunately, but with the announcement of Modern being sanctioned next year, things have been picking up at one of my LGSs and I'm looking forward to getting a lot more testing:
There may need to be a few adjustments to the landbase as I haven't updated it in a while, perhaps a few more green sources. I do have a projected final list, but this is what I'm working with now.
I'd like to note that with the inclusion of the Temple Garden (honestly, this was a last ditch effort to quell the the issue of the lack of Godless Shrines, has really made things easier. I can more or less reliably cast Tidehollows and Path To Exile. Whether or not the deck needs more white sources will depend on what Gatecrash brings in for Orzhov.
Deathrite Shaman has been a real all star. Combined with the Fetchlands, he smooths out all early color issues and allowed me to do things like dropping Sculler T2, and Smiter T3. Left alone too long, and he'll eat away at the opponent's life, and it's been great tech versus graveyard strategies.
Birthing Pod has been added. Turning Bob's I'm done with into bigger more useful things, or comboing with Sculler to ditch something permanently. That combo was always available, but having to toss your own removal spell at your own creature was never something I've been keen on. I've managed to stall out games where they've got a beater on board, and I chump-sac my Bob to get E.Witness, bringing back Bob. Then chump-sac E.Witness bringing in Thrun. I've found it to be good so far. But more testing will be necessary.
Loxodon Smiter has been more of a meta call for me. Blue decks are terrible to need to play against, and the Smiter and Thrun, (and Abrupt) need no such detour. he's 4/4 at 3 and easily podded into from any of the multiple 2 drops available.
Thrun, the Last Troll, I knew I needed some sort of resilient beat stick, and there couldn't be anyone else if not Thrun. I thought about Restoration Angel for the 4 drop slot, for some ridiculousness with Finks and Pod, but it felt too gimmicky and I wanted something "solid". Thrun is solid.
Maelstrom Pulse. I've found that this card covered up the blindspots that previously existed due to the limitation of things like Abrupt Decay and Inquisition. The deck has suffered from a weird 'well he's not playing any low cost cards, now a bunch of mine are obsolete'. This helps.
I'm still thinking of Restoration Angel if it's worth it. I'm slightly inclined to keep Thrun at the 4cmc slot and go with Stonecloaker at 3cmc.
Another consideration would be a Glittering Wish toolbox in the sideboard. And I'm thinking if the deck can perform at 24 lands rather than 25.
Pod can only be activated at sorcery speed. IF want to try the get rid of something permenantly, try Cloudshift
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-H. P. Lovecraft
Pod can only be activated at sorcery speed. IF want to try the get rid of something permenantly, try Cloudshift
Whoops! That's right! Got a little too excited with that thought. At sorcery speed though it's still worked out for me. Sculler into Stonecloaker wouldn't be too bad either. I'll just imagine the Cloaker having an awesome kicker. Might swap the Skinshifters for Cloakers for some testing.
Hey guys. I've been working on a Junk list for several weeks now, and posting my progress on the SCG forums and recently on MTGTheSource. SCG forums are going to be deleted any day now, and I've had no responses on The Source so I figured I'd jump in with you guys instead. It looks like this is the most active place to talk about Modern decks anyway
Currently this deck is doing great against UW Angel, Infect, and Storm. It is about even with RG Tron and Jund. The deck had trouble with Affinity and Twin, but new changes may fix that.
Sesordereht: I <3 the Sudden Deaths in your SB to deal with Twin. Too bad it isn't -5/-5 so that it can off Baneslayer Angels too
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
Hey guys. I've been working on a Junk list for several weeks now, and posting my progress on the SCG forums and recently on MTGTheSource. SCG forums are going to be deleted any day now, and I've had no responses on The Source so I figured I'd jump in with you guys instead. It looks like this is the most active place to talk about Modern decks anyway
Currently this deck is doing great against UW Angel, Infect, and Storm. It is about even with RG Tron and Jund. The deck had trouble with Affinity and Twin, but new changes may fix that.
Sesordereht: I <3 the Sudden Deaths in your SB to deal with Twin. Too bad it isn't -5/-5 so that it can off Baneslayer Angels too
Whew! Boy that was a bit of a read! I just went (skimmed) through everything in that link of yours.
I'm a huge advocate of Tidehollow Sculler for three reasons:
1.) He's a bear. Respectable 2/2 at 2.
2.) Disruption. He 'kidnaps' (as I like to call it) your opponents card. Removal in hand? Take the removal. No removal? Read their hand and guess their next play. He takes things that Inquisition can't take.
3.) He eats removal. Not in the same way as 2.) but in the sense that he's just begging to be killed. Take something really important away, and that's 1 less removal spell for the smiters or goyfs (in your case) or thruns (well that didn't matter anyway).
I personally wish I could say more about Tron, Twin, Storm. I've honestly never played against it. I feel like anything anyone is making around my LGS is either Jund (because, Jund) and various Delver lists (probably standard upgrades).
Mostly delver upgrades. And if anything, I've gone against U/R counterburn, merfolk. Which might explain why I go for a lot of resilience in the deck.
My regular gauntlet amongst friends is Combo Elves (unfair), RDW (hyper aggro), Treefolk (midrange).
The decks houses enough disruption to keep combo at bay, and enough removal to keep aggro at bay, and enough resilience to keep control off. You might have noticed a trend with the "uncounterables".
I could never play Torpor Orb. Too many ETB effects in my set up, but it looks great with your list sans Sculler. I like your list, it's very straight forward, and houses everything you need from beatsticks, to disruption, to removal. It's solid.
A few questions though:
1.) No wrath effects? I'm not sure how you play out if you go aggressive and flood the board, or go tempo, and just keep things favorable.
2.) Wow that's an interesting mana base!
2.1) You can't tutor up Gemstone Mine, but I figure it's as good land early since Junk gets pretty demanding with color combinations.
2.2) 10 fetchlands, have you ever had any problems with this? Like, a fetchland flood? You've got a grand total of 7 fetchable lands. (3 basics, 3 shocks, 1 Bosk).
2.3) I like the idea of 1 shock each, since it makes for smoother land topdecking. Later on, you don't really need shocks anyway since your mana is pretty fixed already. So fetching up basics turns out just fine.
2.4) Murmuring Bosk great tech, I'm sure it's more of a "fetch at end of turn and have no intention of using anyway, so CipT isn't a problem" I like it.
2.5) How have you found Horizon Canopy in testing? That's been on my list of lands to pick up for some time now.
3.) How has Lingering Souls been working out for you?
Sudden Death has been performing really well for me. It's a straight up "Your creature is dead".
I can't personally get around to employing any planeswalker Lili OTV or Garruk R. What do you find yourself tossing out for Lili's +1 most of the time?
Darkblast would be great tech against dorks, and all those relevant x/1's.
Rule of Law looks like it could perform pretty well.
Thanks for reading it. Sorry about the length; I like to write! The words hit my brain and then end up at my fingertips.
I like Sculler for another reason as well: He's a "discard" spell that can attack. I'm tempted to run more Thoughtseize/Inquisitions/Lilianas, but that 2/2 body is so useful, and just being a creature has made that card a decent topdeck late game whereas another Thoughtseize would have been dead. A lot of Jund players complain about having 10 discard spells, because they will run into games where they have too many of those and no way to close a game out. The big picture goal with this is to create a better Jund deck, and Sculler helps with that. Sculler's been an all-star and I don't think I can even completely cut it from this deck.
Tron is an annoying matchup, because there's no good way to deal with ALL of its threats, and it has inevitability. Eventually they WILL Emrakul your face, so you have to somehow win through a bunch of Wurmcoil Engines AND Karns AND win before Eye of Ugin searches that monster out. If Tron becomes a popular deck (it won't because it didn't win anything recently) then Fulminator Mage or more Bitter Ordeals might be necessary.
Twin w/ Mizzium Skins is annoying. The Skin was added to their deck to beat Abrupt Decay, and that also happens to negate every other piece of removal that we have. The best way to win this one is to get enough discard spells to stop the combo that way, and then rely on those hate permanents from the SB. It looks like Twin is prepared for creatures and targeted removal since it brings in Spellskite and Lightning Bolts or whatever, but Echoing Truth is not being played right now...
With your meta you might want even more Zealous Persecutions than I have. You're going to have a rough time with Merfolk, but Elves should just fold to a Zealous after you kill their lords, and ditto on RDW. You can try Kibler's plan against Jund and find room for another Smiter and a Wilf-Leaf Liege or two, but don't cut Lingering Souls. They are going to be awesome against Delvers and make Jund's Lilianas bad.
Yeah, the uncounterable Smiter is pretty sweet against UW, especially if you can nerf their Paths somehow first (bait with Sculler?) They also have Dismember, but I think you're fine with letting them "pay 4 life" to "prevent 4 damage"
Torpor Orb isn't for every deck, but that's precisely why its so good. UW's creatures become vanilla, Pod and Twin don't work at all, and random decks will just have trouble with this. In your list, however, you are right that the costs of losing your Eternal Witness's and Kitchen Finks aren't worth it.
1. I'm playing this deck more like a midrange deck. I built this in an attempt to see if I could make a better Jund deck by using White instead of Red spells. Like Jund, this list tries to trade off all of the opponent's good cards, and then clean up with efficient cretures like the Smiters or the collection of 2/x's and Spirit tokens that end up on my side of the field.
Since I'm trying to win with the incremental gains from all of these value dudes, Wrathing them away would be worse for me than my opponents. I could totally get behind more targeted mass-removal like Crime//Punishment or Engineered Explosives (play it @ 0 and LOL against Affinity.) Don't count out Zealous Persecution as a pseudo-Wrath against a lot of the top decks.
2. Thank you! I worked hard on refining this mana base, and as you saw from the other thread the mana has gone through a lot of shifts already.
2.1. Gemstone Mine could be City of Brass, but I chose Mine because the games are short enough that Mine's drawback doesn't matter often enough, and because I had too many pain lands already.
2.2. No, this has been great. The games aren't going long enough for me to "fail to find" with these, but I need 1 early to get my best plays going with Deathrite Shaman. They also ensure that I get my tri land (Murmuring Bosk) nearly every time to eliminate color issues.
2.3. Yeah, 1 of each has been plenty. I try to fetch basics first if I am facing down hyper aggro (to save life) or anything with red (because Blood Moon is bad news!) BTW whoever can build a Blood Moon deck that doesn't fold to Twin and Storm should earn him/herself a PTQ win next year. Blood Moon kills how many decks in this format?!?
2.4. The Bosk comes into play in most games where I have no turn 1 play. Crack fetch, put it in tapped, oh look I have all three colors on turn 2. It hurts a little, but the color fixing is really important when I'm trying to cast spells for 1BB, 2W, AND 1GW at the same time.
2.5. Its awesome. Probably the best land in the deck to be honest. It has pulled me out of land floods, and it does have a little synergy with Deathrite Shaman (you only lose net 1 mana if you use Shaman to eat Canopy after sac'ing it.)
3. Originally I didn't run Lingering Souls. One of the big mistakes that I made last year was that I played too many durdles (creatures with no abilities) and I always thought Lingering Souls was too slow and durdly to be playable. After actually playing games of Modern, however, it because clear that having blockers for Affinity & Infect, value from Lili's +1, a flying 4/4 that I can cast in two parts is just too good to pass up. This card is also the best top deck ever! I misjudged this card, and it may be the best card in my deck in some important match ups like Affinity.
I think Split Second spells have always been underplayed both here and in Legacy. Like I said, if Twin becomes a major player in January, I'll find room for Sudden Death. I think you do still board it in against UW as well, since it kills everything BUT Baneslayer by itself, and I guess you could use it to team up with two Spirit tokens to take her down.
Liliana WAS good, but she's getting worse now that Lingering Souls is a thing in the format. I've toyed with cutting her completely and going up to 4 Smiters, but against all of the unfair decks Lili is pretty unfair herself. Some decks still can't beat a turn 2 Lili, and Storm can't go off if it has to toss a card every turn.
With +1 I discard Lingering Souls if I have one, otherwise I pitch excess lands. She's really nutty with Dark Confidant in play.
I think Infect uses Darkblast for the mirror match. It is a really solid choice against Infect, Affinity, and Pod. I also like Mortarpod a lot.
Rule of Law is pretty specific, but UR Storm has to scoop if it doesn't run bounce spells, and ditto for Eggs. And Living End, if anyone plays that. Don't bring it in against Jund, because just making Bloodbraid Elf bad isn't worth losing the card that you cut for this.
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You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
So I was trying out a few different cards to make RG Tron a winnable matchup. I think I found it, LOL
If you can't see this, the Ensnaring Bridge is keeping 3(!!!) Wurmcoil Engines from attacking me... Meanwhile Damping Matrix makes all of those Relics and other cantrip goodies useless. This was my worst matchup so far, so I'm glad that I now have the BEST answer for this deck.
Suppression Field didn't work out so well, because all of the cycling abilities on the cantrip artifacts were mana abilities. Ugh! Bitter Ordeal didn't do much. It took away Emrakul, sure, and maybe Eye Of Ugin as well, but I was still dead to multiple Wurmcoils. And Gaddock Teeg did nothing since I assumed that Tron boarded out Karns, and Teeg doesn't stop neither O.Stone nor the Wurmcoils that have handed me loss after loss.
Private Mod Note
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Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
You can't always win, and just because you lose doesn't mean you played badly.
Even if you lose, it is important to remain confident in your ability to make good plays and decisions. Lose that and you are truly lost.
Testing is great, and the better the testing is, the better off you'll be.
It is impossible to tilt and play well.
It is possible to make no mistakes and still lose.
So there are three Junk threads that I have found so far in the Modern forums... Maybe we can get some of these merged?
The current list isn't doing as well against Storm as the last list did. I also am playing against the new version of storm with Epic Experiment instead of the old Pyromancer's Ascension list. Epic Experiment makes way more of Storm's hands work, which reduces variance & makes it more consistent overall.
Post board I am leaving in Dismembers (in case Goblin Electromancer stays in) and Zealous Persecution (in case Storm decides to go for Empty the Warrens.) I actually don't have a lot of good cards to bring in for this particular matchup. I have Rule of Law, but with Gaddock Teeg doing poorly in other matchups I am stuck using just GY hate and those Rules to try and "get" Storm. In testing I (playing as the Storm opponent) sideboarded in the worst way possible for Junk i.e. Leaving Grapeshot in (not fearing Faith's Shield) and bringing in Echoing Truths (which the Epic Experiment lists play, but NOT any of the mainstream lists.) Of course things aren't looking good for team Junk when the storm deck has the perfect set of tools to beat Junk's hate for the deck!
If Storm doesn't have a bounce spell in its SB, I can win. If I get more than 2 discard spells regardless of what storm has, I am winning. If Storm boards into Empty The Warrens, I can win if I get one of my outs or if I hit any of the scenarios above. I'll try a few more games with my fictional Storm opponent making the "wrong" boarding decisions and see how things pan out.
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A mistake I made when testing Modern a year ago is that I would try to test against worst-case scenarios. This would discourage me and cause me to change my deck to try and shore up boogey-men matchups, when reality showed that these things didn't happen all of the time. Its good to see what the absolute worst case is going to look like, but its not as important to be able to beat all of those (no deck can) than it is to be solid against the expected most popular decks in the room.
Note that I didn't say BEST decks in the room. Most popular. Magic is still a game played by humans, and my opposition is not a bunch of robots that will automatically play a winning deck list. Some will, but a lot of players I can peg into different archetypes just based on what I've seen them play before, budgets, which pros they listen to more often, etc.
Just because 10 out of 15 Pros say RDW is a bad deck in Standard, for example, doesn't mean that the majority of RDW players who can't afford UW Mythic Rare$ deck of the week are going to jump ship. The same applies to Modern. I expect a field with lots of Affinity, some Storm, some Tron, some Burn, and other cheap decks as well as a smattering of "grinders" who will always play Blue, a few people who I pegged as always playing combo, a few guys that I know who like to brew too much (I was one of those guys .) The question I'm asking myself with regards to this room make-up is, which of these people are bringing my worst matchups, and what are my odds of being paired up with these people?
tl;dr: What can I afford to "try to dodge" and what do I have to beat? If my deck doesn't beat the decks that I have to beat, then why am I still playing it?
Jund tops my list, followed by UW. I expect the big-time grinders to play UW or Teachings or some sort of Ux Delver deck, whatever is considered "best" at the moment. I expect some Twin and UR storm, because, hey, Islands are good, right? I expect some of the budget or less-experienced players to pilot Affininty and Infect, because they are decks that are cheap and easy to play. It will look like the field is swarmed with these decks, but they will thin out in the later rounds.
The final make-up of my sideboard depends on a) Which decks are the worst matchups for me (currently RG Tron,) and b) What are my odds of running into which of my worst matchups? If I have a 20% chance of beating Tron, but only two people play it at the PTQ, then the Ensnaring Bridge slots become Gaddock Teegs again or something relevant against Jund. One thing I've learned from playing in too many PTQs is that you can NEVER accurately tell what decks are actually going to be sitting across from you.
I have a basic ranking system for the major decks in the format. Jund with White is #1, followed by regular Jund, Affinity, UW, Infect, etc. The rankings change based on which decks end up in Top8's at the most recent large tournaments. I anticipate that a winning decklist and consistent top 8 lists will have a high rank, while ones that did well before but haven't had good results since fall off (for example, I haven't tested against Eggs yet, and Gifts of all things is higher on my list of priorities to test since it did crack the most recent GP Top 8.)
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Reprint Opt for Modern!!
FREE DIG THOROUGH TIME!
PLAY MORE ROUGE DECKS!
2 Vault of the Archangel
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Plains (for lack of Godless Shrines)
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
8 Swamp
1 Forest
2 Dark Confidant
2 Kiku, Night's Flower
4 Deathrite Shaman
3 Tidehollow Sculler
2 Eternal Witness
2 Skinshifter
2 Vampire Nighthawk
2 Sign in Blood
2 Grisly Salvage
Spells (14):
2 Damnation
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Path to Exile
2 Dismember
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
+1 Vault of the Archangel
-1 Overgrown Tomb
-3 Gatekeeper of Malakir
+2 Kiku, Night's Flower
-2 Phyrexian Obliterator
+2 Skinshifter
+2 Eternal Witness
-2 Treasured Find
+2 Dark Confidant
-2 Phyrexian Arena
+2 Vampire Nighthawk
-1 Syphon Life
A few notes:
The Obliterator is pretty hard to cast. Given I don't have my Godless Shrines or Urborg yet, he's still pretty difficult. I'm in the market for a good beater, and will try the Obliterator again when I manage to get my landbase fixed, but I've got eyes on Loxodon Smiter, Thrun, the Last Troll, and Troll Ascetic. I haven't tried the snakes out, so I haven't a clue on how well it'd go, but I'll give that a shot when I can.
Kiku has actually been pretty decent for repeated creature removal. Takes care of most things that square off with their power and toughness, but it's very mana intensive so that doesn't shine till later in the mid game (which is what I'm after anyway. It's great when you get it online. Given it's filling the space Liliana should be in. It's filling in shoes fairly decently. Instant speed removal is always a plus.
Pretty clear cut upgrades with Bob over Arena, Witness over Treasured Find, and Nighthawk over Syphon Life (which actually was pretty good, but I like the bodies).
I don't want to stick it out with Nighthawk though, the whole business of it actually needing to go into the red zone to send some life back (which really is the only role it's supposed to be playing) is problematic. So much could happen before that. Kitchen Finks however delivers as he arrives. Not to mention if they're going to kill it, they need to do so twice. But I have run into Obstinate Baloth whom I previously presumed inexistent, and it got me considering him considering it's a 4/4 that gains 4 ETB. Dodges bolt, abrupt, inquisition, and runs over small creatures. Doubling as both lifegain and a beater.
I don't know if I'd rather run him or Finks. Maybe both?
Then there's Skinshifter. He's new, so I wont say much, but I like the flexibility. Trampler 4/4. Evasive 2/2. Beefy 0/8. That last one made me think about Doran. But Witness, Finks, Bob disagree.
There's a tournament this November 4 coming up, if I can manage, I'll try to get into it. By then I should have Bob's 3-4 to replace those Signatures. I find it awkward having extra bob's in hand when there's one in play. I guess this is where Liliana fits in well.
Anyone have some thoughts to share, I'd be glad to hear them out!
P.S.
I'm on the fence with Grisly Salvage. It's absolutely great when i'm flipping over 5 lands. Or even good stuff + witness. But I once flipped over 2 Abrupts, 2 Dismembers, and a land, and that made me cringe. Given that it's near even you'll flip spells and creatures alike. But it fits a role the deck feels to need at times. Digging. Would more witnesses make this better? Or are there better options for digging?
4 noble hierarch
4 knight if the reliquary
3 tidehollow sculler
4 tarmigoyf
3 path to exile
3 liliana of the veil
2 Elspeth knight errant
3 abrupt decay
2 maelstrom pulse
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 thoghtseize
4 marsh flats
4 verdant catacombs
1 sejeri steppe
1 treetop village
1 tectonic edge
2 godless shrine
1 horizon canopy
2 overgrown tomb
2 temple garden
1 forest
1 swamp
1 plains
If it looks Doranish it's because I was originally running doran and harbinger but concluded they suck in current meta and just added more liliana / sculler. I tried called of the pride Ajani but knight errant is still better junk card imo
U can run obliterator but it requires dropping the white or running fetid Heath and twilight mire or the innistrad duals along with shrine and tomb. Or you can do an Eva green style bg rock the. It's pretty easy to run obliterator. I don't know if he's better than tomb stalker tho. I try a 2/2 split in my bg build.
With regards to digging. Junk doesn't usually dig with the sole exception of dark confidant and senses diving top in legacy. The time you waste digging with salvage you could have dropped a sculler, or a gofy, or a bob and put your opponent on he defensive. Salvage is a good card but I don't see it in junk at least not without dedicating a more grave based shell where you can get double value out of it. Such a deck might run lingering souls, bloodghast, Hakkon, nameless inversion, life from the loam, knight of the reliquary. See in that list you don't care if you flip sorcery with salvage
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Let's jump straight to it, here's my new list:
4x Deathrite Shaman
3x Tidehollow Sculler
4x Dark Confidant
2x Skinshifter (Placeholder of Maelstrom Pulse, awkward)
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Loxodon Smiter
2x Eternal Witness
2x Thrun, The Last Troll
Kill Spells:
2x Path To Exile
2x Abrupt Decay
2x Dismember
2x Damnation
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
Lands:
4x Verdant Catacombs
4x Marsh Flats
3x Overgrown Tomb
2x Vault of the Archangel
1x Temple Garden
8x Swamp
2x Plains
1x Forest
2x Kitchen Finks
2x Abrupt Decay
3x Sudden Death
1x Damnation
2x Oblivion Stone
There may need to be a few adjustments to the landbase as I haven't updated it in a while, perhaps a few more green sources. I do have a projected final list, but this is what I'm working with now.
I'd like to note that with the inclusion of the Temple Garden (honestly, this was a last ditch effort to quell the the issue of the lack of Godless Shrines, has really made things easier. I can more or less reliably cast Tidehollows and Path To Exile. Whether or not the deck needs more white sources will depend on what Gatecrash brings in for Orzhov.
Deathrite Shaman has been a real all star. Combined with the Fetchlands, he smooths out all early color issues and allowed me to do things like dropping Sculler T2, and Smiter T3. Left alone too long, and he'll eat away at the opponent's life, and it's been great tech versus graveyard strategies.
Birthing Pod has been added. Turning Bob's I'm done with into bigger more useful things, or comboing with Sculler to ditch something permanently. That combo was always available, but having to toss your own removal spell at your own creature was never something I've been keen on. I've managed to stall out games where they've got a beater on board, and I chump-sac my Bob to get E.Witness, bringing back Bob. Then chump-sac E.Witness bringing in Thrun. I've found it to be good so far. But more testing will be necessary.
Loxodon Smiter has been more of a meta call for me. Blue decks are terrible to need to play against, and the Smiter and Thrun, (and Abrupt) need no such detour. he's 4/4 at 3 and easily podded into from any of the multiple 2 drops available.
Thrun, the Last Troll, I knew I needed some sort of resilient beat stick, and there couldn't be anyone else if not Thrun. I thought about Restoration Angel for the 4 drop slot, for some ridiculousness with Finks and Pod, but it felt too gimmicky and I wanted something "solid". Thrun is solid.
Maelstrom Pulse. I've found that this card covered up the blindspots that previously existed due to the limitation of things like Abrupt Decay and Inquisition. The deck has suffered from a weird 'well he's not playing any low cost cards, now a bunch of mine are obsolete'. This helps.
I'm still thinking of Restoration Angel if it's worth it. I'm slightly inclined to keep Thrun at the 4cmc slot and go with Stonecloaker at 3cmc.
Another consideration would be a Glittering Wish toolbox in the sideboard. And I'm thinking if the deck can perform at 24 lands rather than 25.
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft
Whoops! That's right! Got a little too excited with that thought. At sorcery speed though it's still worked out for me. Sculler into Stonecloaker wouldn't be too bad either. I'll just imagine the Cloaker having an awesome kicker. Might swap the Skinshifters for Cloakers for some testing.
Here is the thread on The Source.
Current List:
4 Dark Confidant
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Tidehollow Sculler
3 Loxodon Smiter
1 Swamp
1 Plains
1 Forest
2 Horizon Canopy
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Godless Shrine
1 Murmuring Bosk
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Marsh Flats
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Gemstone Mine
1 Isolated Chapel
1 Woodland Cemetary
1 Vault of the Archangel
2 Thoughtseize
4 Path to Exile
1 Dismember
2 Zealous Persecution
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Maelstrom Pulse
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Lingering Souls
SB:
Currently this deck is doing great against UW Angel, Infect, and Storm. It is about even with RG Tron and Jund. The deck had trouble with Affinity and Twin, but new changes may fix that.
Sesordereht: I <3 the Sudden Deaths in your SB to deal with Twin. Too bad it isn't -5/-5 so that it can off Baneslayer Angels too
~ Brian DeMars
Whew! Boy that was a bit of a read! I just went (skimmed) through everything in that link of yours.
I'm a huge advocate of Tidehollow Sculler for three reasons:
1.) He's a bear. Respectable 2/2 at 2.
2.) Disruption. He 'kidnaps' (as I like to call it) your opponents card. Removal in hand? Take the removal. No removal? Read their hand and guess their next play. He takes things that Inquisition can't take.
3.) He eats removal. Not in the same way as 2.) but in the sense that he's just begging to be killed. Take something really important away, and that's 1 less removal spell for the smiters or goyfs (in your case) or thruns (well that didn't matter anyway).
I personally wish I could say more about Tron, Twin, Storm. I've honestly never played against it. I feel like anything anyone is making around my LGS is either Jund (because, Jund) and various Delver lists (probably standard upgrades).
Mostly delver upgrades. And if anything, I've gone against U/R counterburn, merfolk. Which might explain why I go for a lot of resilience in the deck.
My regular gauntlet amongst friends is Combo Elves (unfair), RDW (hyper aggro), Treefolk (midrange).
The decks houses enough disruption to keep combo at bay, and enough removal to keep aggro at bay, and enough resilience to keep control off. You might have noticed a trend with the "uncounterables".
I could never play Torpor Orb. Too many ETB effects in my set up, but it looks great with your list sans Sculler. I like your list, it's very straight forward, and houses everything you need from beatsticks, to disruption, to removal. It's solid.
A few questions though:
1.) No wrath effects? I'm not sure how you play out if you go aggressive and flood the board, or go tempo, and just keep things favorable.
2.) Wow that's an interesting mana base!
2.1) You can't tutor up Gemstone Mine, but I figure it's as good land early since Junk gets pretty demanding with color combinations.
2.2) 10 fetchlands, have you ever had any problems with this? Like, a fetchland flood? You've got a grand total of 7 fetchable lands. (3 basics, 3 shocks, 1 Bosk).
2.3) I like the idea of 1 shock each, since it makes for smoother land topdecking. Later on, you don't really need shocks anyway since your mana is pretty fixed already. So fetching up basics turns out just fine.
2.4) Murmuring Bosk great tech, I'm sure it's more of a "fetch at end of turn and have no intention of using anyway, so CipT isn't a problem" I like it.
2.5) How have you found Horizon Canopy in testing? That's been on my list of lands to pick up for some time now.
3.) How has Lingering Souls been working out for you?
Sudden Death has been performing really well for me. It's a straight up "Your creature is dead".
I can't personally get around to employing any planeswalker Lili OTV or Garruk R. What do you find yourself tossing out for Lili's +1 most of the time?
Darkblast would be great tech against dorks, and all those relevant x/1's.
Rule of Law looks like it could perform pretty well.
I like Sculler for another reason as well: He's a "discard" spell that can attack. I'm tempted to run more Thoughtseize/Inquisitions/Lilianas, but that 2/2 body is so useful, and just being a creature has made that card a decent topdeck late game whereas another Thoughtseize would have been dead. A lot of Jund players complain about having 10 discard spells, because they will run into games where they have too many of those and no way to close a game out. The big picture goal with this is to create a better Jund deck, and Sculler helps with that. Sculler's been an all-star and I don't think I can even completely cut it from this deck.
Tron is an annoying matchup, because there's no good way to deal with ALL of its threats, and it has inevitability. Eventually they WILL Emrakul your face, so you have to somehow win through a bunch of Wurmcoil Engines AND Karns AND win before Eye of Ugin searches that monster out. If Tron becomes a popular deck (it won't because it didn't win anything recently) then Fulminator Mage or more Bitter Ordeals might be necessary.
Twin w/ Mizzium Skins is annoying. The Skin was added to their deck to beat Abrupt Decay, and that also happens to negate every other piece of removal that we have. The best way to win this one is to get enough discard spells to stop the combo that way, and then rely on those hate permanents from the SB. It looks like Twin is prepared for creatures and targeted removal since it brings in Spellskite and Lightning Bolts or whatever, but Echoing Truth is not being played right now...
With your meta you might want even more Zealous Persecutions than I have. You're going to have a rough time with Merfolk, but Elves should just fold to a Zealous after you kill their lords, and ditto on RDW. You can try Kibler's plan against Jund and find room for another Smiter and a Wilf-Leaf Liege or two, but don't cut Lingering Souls. They are going to be awesome against Delvers and make Jund's Lilianas bad.
Yeah, the uncounterable Smiter is pretty sweet against UW, especially if you can nerf their Paths somehow first (bait with Sculler?) They also have Dismember, but I think you're fine with letting them "pay 4 life" to "prevent 4 damage"
Torpor Orb isn't for every deck, but that's precisely why its so good. UW's creatures become vanilla, Pod and Twin don't work at all, and random decks will just have trouble with this. In your list, however, you are right that the costs of losing your Eternal Witness's and Kitchen Finks aren't worth it.
1. I'm playing this deck more like a midrange deck. I built this in an attempt to see if I could make a better Jund deck by using White instead of Red spells. Like Jund, this list tries to trade off all of the opponent's good cards, and then clean up with efficient cretures like the Smiters or the collection of 2/x's and Spirit tokens that end up on my side of the field.
Since I'm trying to win with the incremental gains from all of these value dudes, Wrathing them away would be worse for me than my opponents. I could totally get behind more targeted mass-removal like Crime//Punishment or Engineered Explosives (play it @ 0 and LOL against Affinity.) Don't count out Zealous Persecution as a pseudo-Wrath against a lot of the top decks.
2. Thank you! I worked hard on refining this mana base, and as you saw from the other thread the mana has gone through a lot of shifts already.
2.1. Gemstone Mine could be City of Brass, but I chose Mine because the games are short enough that Mine's drawback doesn't matter often enough, and because I had too many pain lands already.
2.2. No, this has been great. The games aren't going long enough for me to "fail to find" with these, but I need 1 early to get my best plays going with Deathrite Shaman. They also ensure that I get my tri land (Murmuring Bosk) nearly every time to eliminate color issues.
2.3. Yeah, 1 of each has been plenty. I try to fetch basics first if I am facing down hyper aggro (to save life) or anything with red (because Blood Moon is bad news!) BTW whoever can build a Blood Moon deck that doesn't fold to Twin and Storm should earn him/herself a PTQ win next year. Blood Moon kills how many decks in this format?!?
2.4. The Bosk comes into play in most games where I have no turn 1 play. Crack fetch, put it in tapped, oh look I have all three colors on turn 2. It hurts a little, but the color fixing is really important when I'm trying to cast spells for 1BB, 2W, AND 1GW at the same time.
2.5. Its awesome. Probably the best land in the deck to be honest. It has pulled me out of land floods, and it does have a little synergy with Deathrite Shaman (you only lose net 1 mana if you use Shaman to eat Canopy after sac'ing it.)
3. Originally I didn't run Lingering Souls. One of the big mistakes that I made last year was that I played too many durdles (creatures with no abilities) and I always thought Lingering Souls was too slow and durdly to be playable. After actually playing games of Modern, however, it because clear that having blockers for Affinity & Infect, value from Lili's +1, a flying 4/4 that I can cast in two parts is just too good to pass up. This card is also the best top deck ever! I misjudged this card, and it may be the best card in my deck in some important match ups like Affinity.
I think Split Second spells have always been underplayed both here and in Legacy. Like I said, if Twin becomes a major player in January, I'll find room for Sudden Death. I think you do still board it in against UW as well, since it kills everything BUT Baneslayer by itself, and I guess you could use it to team up with two Spirit tokens to take her down.
Liliana WAS good, but she's getting worse now that Lingering Souls is a thing in the format. I've toyed with cutting her completely and going up to 4 Smiters, but against all of the unfair decks Lili is pretty unfair herself. Some decks still can't beat a turn 2 Lili, and Storm can't go off if it has to toss a card every turn.
With +1 I discard Lingering Souls if I have one, otherwise I pitch excess lands. She's really nutty with Dark Confidant in play.
I think Infect uses Darkblast for the mirror match. It is a really solid choice against Infect, Affinity, and Pod. I also like Mortarpod a lot.
Rule of Law is pretty specific, but UR Storm has to scoop if it doesn't run bounce spells, and ditto for Eggs. And Living End, if anyone plays that. Don't bring it in against Jund, because just making Bloodbraid Elf bad isn't worth losing the card that you cut for this.
~ Brian DeMars
So I was trying out a few different cards to make RG Tron a winnable matchup. I think I found it, LOL
If you can't see this, the Ensnaring Bridge is keeping 3(!!!) Wurmcoil Engines from attacking me... Meanwhile Damping Matrix makes all of those Relics and other cantrip goodies useless. This was my worst matchup so far, so I'm glad that I now have the BEST answer for this deck.
Suppression Field didn't work out so well, because all of the cycling abilities on the cantrip artifacts were mana abilities. Ugh! Bitter Ordeal didn't do much. It took away Emrakul, sure, and maybe Eye Of Ugin as well, but I was still dead to multiple Wurmcoils. And Gaddock Teeg did nothing since I assumed that Tron boarded out Karns, and Teeg doesn't stop neither O.Stone nor the Wurmcoils that have handed me loss after loss.
~ Brian DeMars
The current list isn't doing as well against Storm as the last list did. I also am playing against the new version of storm with Epic Experiment instead of the old Pyromancer's Ascension list. Epic Experiment makes way more of Storm's hands work, which reduces variance & makes it more consistent overall.
Post board I am leaving in Dismembers (in case Goblin Electromancer stays in) and Zealous Persecution (in case Storm decides to go for Empty the Warrens.) I actually don't have a lot of good cards to bring in for this particular matchup. I have Rule of Law, but with Gaddock Teeg doing poorly in other matchups I am stuck using just GY hate and those Rules to try and "get" Storm. In testing I (playing as the Storm opponent) sideboarded in the worst way possible for Junk i.e. Leaving Grapeshot in (not fearing Faith's Shield) and bringing in Echoing Truths (which the Epic Experiment lists play, but NOT any of the mainstream lists.) Of course things aren't looking good for team Junk when the storm deck has the perfect set of tools to beat Junk's hate for the deck!
If Storm doesn't have a bounce spell in its SB, I can win. If I get more than 2 discard spells regardless of what storm has, I am winning. If Storm boards into Empty The Warrens, I can win if I get one of my outs or if I hit any of the scenarios above. I'll try a few more games with my fictional Storm opponent making the "wrong" boarding decisions and see how things pan out.
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A mistake I made when testing Modern a year ago is that I would try to test against worst-case scenarios. This would discourage me and cause me to change my deck to try and shore up boogey-men matchups, when reality showed that these things didn't happen all of the time. Its good to see what the absolute worst case is going to look like, but its not as important to be able to beat all of those (no deck can) than it is to be solid against the expected most popular decks in the room.
Note that I didn't say BEST decks in the room. Most popular. Magic is still a game played by humans, and my opposition is not a bunch of robots that will automatically play a winning deck list. Some will, but a lot of players I can peg into different archetypes just based on what I've seen them play before, budgets, which pros they listen to more often, etc.
Just because 10 out of 15 Pros say RDW is a bad deck in Standard, for example, doesn't mean that the majority of RDW players who can't afford UW Mythic Rare$ deck of the week are going to jump ship. The same applies to Modern. I expect a field with lots of Affinity, some Storm, some Tron, some Burn, and other cheap decks as well as a smattering of "grinders" who will always play Blue, a few people who I pegged as always playing combo, a few guys that I know who like to brew too much (I was one of those guys .) The question I'm asking myself with regards to this room make-up is, which of these people are bringing my worst matchups, and what are my odds of being paired up with these people?
tl;dr: What can I afford to "try to dodge" and what do I have to beat? If my deck doesn't beat the decks that I have to beat, then why am I still playing it?
Jund tops my list, followed by UW. I expect the big-time grinders to play UW or Teachings or some sort of Ux Delver deck, whatever is considered "best" at the moment. I expect some Twin and UR storm, because, hey, Islands are good, right? I expect some of the budget or less-experienced players to pilot Affininty and Infect, because they are decks that are cheap and easy to play. It will look like the field is swarmed with these decks, but they will thin out in the later rounds.
The final make-up of my sideboard depends on a) Which decks are the worst matchups for me (currently RG Tron,) and b) What are my odds of running into which of my worst matchups? If I have a 20% chance of beating Tron, but only two people play it at the PTQ, then the Ensnaring Bridge slots become Gaddock Teegs again or something relevant against Jund. One thing I've learned from playing in too many PTQs is that you can NEVER accurately tell what decks are actually going to be sitting across from you.
I have a basic ranking system for the major decks in the format. Jund with White is #1, followed by regular Jund, Affinity, UW, Infect, etc. The rankings change based on which decks end up in Top8's at the most recent large tournaments. I anticipate that a winning decklist and consistent top 8 lists will have a high rank, while ones that did well before but haven't had good results since fall off (for example, I haven't tested against Eggs yet, and Gifts of all things is higher on my list of priorities to test since it did crack the most recent GP Top 8.)
~ Brian DeMars
Moved to archive; junk thread can be found here. -Tom
"I am disillusioned enough to know that no man's opinion on any subject is worth a damn unless backed up with enough genuine information to make him really know what he's talking about."
-H. P. Lovecraft