I'll say that the list I'm running does great against Jund and every tempo deck, believe it or not. The biggest problem is Tron, WB Tokens and even Storm (still trying to figure out how to attack the combo best). I've never actually played a life from the Loam list, but yeah, it looks tough. For the Tron and Storm matchups, I have 3 Telemin Performance in the sideboard. That's pretty close to an instant win if you draw it (haven't yet since I started running them).
I'm doubtful that the meta is going to settle down into a single power deck. As long as it remains diverse in the sense of there being multiple combo and aggro archetypes, this is what we have to work with. They're also printing hoardes of additional undercosted super-creatures like Delver and Geist, and not printing good control cards anymore so I don't expect things to brighten up. If I can't make my list work I think I'm going to assume Modern is a marginally slower Legacy and give up on it.
No way I'm settling for this tempo thing they created. I came back into this game last December after not playing since 1999 and the idea that I'm basically powering up pokemon just doesn't do it to me. I'm currently just trying to make a deck work without any of these little tempo creatures, and if that don't work then f*** it.
I'd love to see your list, could you post it or just pm me? Trust me, if I can figure out how to make this deck viable I will and then I will play it.
My problems:
1. Tron=almost impossible, should be pretty self explanatory
2. Tempo=can beat it, but can also just get blown out of the water if things go in their favor.
3. Loam=this is just crazy, they hit you with walkers, aggro creatures, card advantage, seismic, very very difficult to win.
4. Affinity=Nut draw is a Nut draw, they have it and we don't have ancient grude
5. Tokens=they have card advantage, threats, impervious to removal, not a good matchup
6. Jund=can grind you out, not as bad as the above though
Storm isn't so bad, but I pack lots of counters/discard MD so there's that.
Really would love to see your list and hear your thoughts, I can throw my list up if you'd like (two weeks or so outdated).
EDIT: Been testing, Started sideboarding in 2 echoing truth, 1 negate, 1 dispel, 1 surgical in against tokens, I have been pleasantly surprised with the results, lingering souls still sucks but if you can force them to overextend (mainly flashback souls) then you can really get them.
The problem with Performance is that it is a sorcery. Therefore we can't tutor for it or go EOT performance against tron (if you hit it on turn 5 chances are that they have a counter or gifts online (bad).
That's my current list. I went down on spot removal and haven't had a chance to test it out yet. Ironically the few aggro/tempo decks I already have a good matchup against, so I thought I'd strengthen the other midrange/combo matchups instead.
I've still not gone 3-1 in a Modern daily yet, so don't think I'm claiming I've found the answer yet. Let me know if you have any questions or suggestions.
About your matchups, you listed...
Tron: Telemin Performance isn't tutorable, you're right, but the matchup is so abysmal and this card wrecks them, so I went up to 3 copies. It's an instant KO against Storm, as well. you also have Aven Mindcensor to fight Eye of Ugin. If I wasn't trying to limit my financial exposure, I'd experiment with Mindbreak Trap and Vendillion Clique, as well as take out a Inquisition of Kozilek for a Thoughtseize (Gifts is a key card). Honestly, I think If I could ever get a good draw against a Tron deck, White Sun's Zenith on turn 6-7 should be able to fire for 5 with Calciform Pools, putting them on a 1 turn clock. Still not ideal, since their ideal draw is a Tron set and Eye of Ugin tutoring on turn 5 or so.
Tempo: Here, we're basically just a tempo deck with a better end game. Their high-end is 4 Cryptic Command or the likes, while we have Mystical Teachings unlocking our whole deck. THis one normally turns into Snapcaster beats, with me bringing in Rest for the Weary and gaining half my life back. Then maybe dropping another Snapcaster and doing it again. Night of Soul's Betrayal (Curse of Death's Hold if you're running no Baneslayers or Wurmcoils) is as much a lock here as it is against Delver in Standard. They can't deal with it and the game is basically over.
Loam: Still haven't seen it...hopefully I never do. I think a second Surgical Extraction would be a good board, since that card + Snapcasters kills their whole deck, I imagine.
Affinity: This isn't very popular right now. I used to have multiple Zealous Persecution, but I'm saving sideboard room for what hits the hardest. We all know this deck draws well, or just goes belly up after a single sweeper.
Tokens: What a pain. I focus on the anthems and ignore the token generators. They probably won't realize they need to put you on a fast clock, not until you tutor Rest for the Weary. Zealous Persecution used to be maindeck for me when I was mostly focused on Aggro decks, but even with 1 in the sideboard it's a great sweeper. It also works well with WSZ. I'm hoping Baneslayer and Wurmcoil (both new additions) can help with this one.
Jund: I developed this deck playtesting against Jund because I imagined it was the deck to beat. This one is very much in our favor. As obnoxious as the deck is, it just doesn't have a fast enough clock, and once again, our end game is much stronger.
Another matchup I'd like to add to consideration is Birthing Pod. I threw in a Mimic Vat to test the waters and haven't drawn it yet. Only having a single sweeper, which doesn't hit higher CMC creatures is a pain. I just realized that Damnation is only $9 online, so I might try that in the sideboard. As far as their aggro and Melira combo, Night of Soul's betrayal is a hard lock if you can protect it. This matchup was the reason I replaced a Path to Exile with Disfigure and removed 2 others; the ramp you give them is actually relevant in this matchup.
All in all I feel Mystical Teachings has solid answers to everything, which is why I love it. I just haven't yet been able to make it work. I'm also limiting my investment in Modern and never even thought about some more expensive options. I might jump back into Magic League and give it a run there.
The problem with Performance is that it is a sorcery. Therefore we can't tutor for it or go EOT performance against tron (if you hit it on turn 5 chances are that they have a counter or gifts online (bad).
The gifts is a good point, since they're basically guaranteed to be able to answer it. I still would take it over Baneslayer or most any other threat, since they can't just shrug off one of their Eldrazi like they do Teferi or Wurmcoil.
The gifts is a good point, since they're basically guaranteed to be able to answer it. I still would take it over Baneslayer or most any other threat, since they can't just shrug off one of their Eldrazi like they do Teferi or Wurmcoil.
Yeah, that is true. How good has wurmcoil been, seems good against jund. Thoughts on maybe sideboarding in echoing truths for the tokens matchup, they seem very good (dissipate seems good against souls too).
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the great banner.
What makes me laugh is that my match-up with tron is 50/50 usually leaning to the side of the better player. But then again. I play red instead of white. I think esper teachings is dead honestly. Either W/U/R/b or Grixis are the way to go.
What makes me laugh is that my match-up with tron is 50/50 usually leaning to the side of the better player. But then again. I play red instead of white. I think esper teachings is dead honestly. Either W/U/R/b or Grixis are the way to go.
I would think that the red is just a handicap in slower matches. Care to post a list or tell us why red cards give you a better match?
Yeah, that is true. How good has wurmcoil been, seems good against jund. Thoughts on maybe sideboarding in echoing truths for the tokens matchup, they seem very good (dissipate seems good against souls too).
Wurmcoil is great against any deck not running Path to Exile. I won a URG Delver match handily when this resolved, since they cant do anything about it.
I'm not sure that echoing truth is better than zealous persecution, but I haven't tried the card so I can't call it. I imagine it would be good to still have a card that can hit an anthem on an attack that should be lethal, making it a better sweeper. I know that they tend to run tokens of different types, so that would be a concern to me. I'd rather not comment to much when I haven't tried the card out yet.
How about Deprive as a 1 or 2-of? Seems nice as a teachings target as it is a really cheap hard counter. Also, Disfigure kills a lot of stuff in modern. Killing an early bird/Bob/Delver without ramping them seems pretty good for us (my list has a tough time vs jund). I have been running three mainboard.
this will be banned soon, or modern will die, but just wanted to share in case you haven't seen it.
^Liliana Vess wants to say hi! Seriously she just became one of the best PW out there.
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
In case I didn't tell you, I don't care about your opinion I just want your facts. And not the facts that make you seem smart. I want the ones that are actual facts.
I joined a game called "tier 1, serious" and was kicked as soon as I played my Arcane Sanctum. I guess my opponent was clairvoyant. Oh well. I didn't feel like losing to Tron anyway.
I just built my first Modern deck since returning to Magic after fourteen years away, and it is Esper Teachings. I awake today to discover the spoiler "Cavern of Souls". Am I wrong in thinking this hoses us pretty dramatically? What do we do now, cut some counters for discard? Removal? Carry land destruction like Befoul and Rain of Tears?
I just built my first Modern deck since returning to Magic after fourteen years away, and it is Esper Teachings. I awake today to discover the spoiler "Cavern of Souls". Am I wrong in thinking this hoses us pretty dramatically? What do we do now, cut some counters for discard? Removal? Carry land destruction like Befoul and Rain of Tears?
That's a tribal card, really. Probably specifically targeting mono-color decks, like merfolk. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
Yes, except that OT5/6 will not be ~~~~~~, it will be an attack or some amount of burn pointed at lili so that 3 uninterrupted turns becomes only 1 or 2.
Yes, except that OT5/6 will not be ~~~~~~, it will be an attack or some amount of burn pointed at lili so that 3 uninterrupted turns becomes only 1 or 2.
That's my point; it's a must answer at that point. If you can protect her for one turn, you basically win; if you want to run that package. I mean, you're playing Teachings, you probably have Slaughter Pact in the deck; and maybe you have a Clique down? So they need to have 3 creatures get to try to slam into her?
I'm not saying you should run that package because it'll be amazing; I was just entertaining the idea, and defending the previous poster from the derisive; "That's a joke, right?" comment.
That's my point; it's a must answer at that point. If you can protect her for one turn, you basically win; if you want to run that package. I mean, you're playing Teachings, you probably have Slaughter Pact in the deck; and maybe you have a Clique down? So they need to have 3 creatures get to try to slam into her?
I'm not saying you should run that package because it'll be amazing; I was just entertaining the idea, and defending the previous poster from the derisive; "That's a joke, right?" comment.
Probably not viable in teachings, not a joke in general, but probably one in the context of this deck. You are basically TAPPING OUT on turn 5 for a do nothing effect that turn. This deck can't tap out turn 3-> mainphase for an effect that does affect the board (board wipe is an arguable exception). Obviously the comment was not called for, but it is kinda true in this deck.
Sidenote: I laughed at your signature, I read that gifts tournament report. I am sad that INS is off of esper teachings, if he is not playing hardcore teachings then we probably shouldn't be playing it either. I really wish that I could get that Storm control deck and also be a good enough player to pilot it well enough, but my budget is not ready for that and I would probably fizzle every time
Private Mod Note
():
Rollback Post to RevisionRollBack
Thanks to SushiOtter at Hakai Studios for the great banner.
Hi! I'm new to the Modern forum and nice to meet all of you. Is this thread just mainly for Esper Teaching deck or can it be any form of Esper Control?
This thread is mainly for those who play 2+ Mystical Teachings and a ton of instants (almost Draw-Go). If you don't play any copies of that card, try another thread--or try making your own thread.
I'd love to see your list, could you post it or just pm me? Trust me, if I can figure out how to make this deck viable I will and then I will play it.
My problems:
1. Tron=almost impossible, should be pretty self explanatory
2. Tempo=can beat it, but can also just get blown out of the water if things go in their favor.
3. Loam=this is just crazy, they hit you with walkers, aggro creatures, card advantage, seismic, very very difficult to win.
4. Affinity=Nut draw is a Nut draw, they have it and we don't have ancient grude
5. Tokens=they have card advantage, threats, impervious to removal, not a good matchup
6. Jund=can grind you out, not as bad as the above though
Storm isn't so bad, but I pack lots of counters/discard MD so there's that.
Really would love to see your list and hear your thoughts, I can throw my list up if you'd like (two weeks or so outdated).
EDIT: Been testing, Started sideboarding in 2 echoing truth, 1 negate, 1 dispel, 1 surgical in against tokens, I have been pleasantly surprised with the results, lingering souls still sucks but if you can force them to overextend (mainly flashback souls) then you can really get them.
Current list:
1 vendilion clique
1 teferi, mage of zhalfir
3 path to exile
1 darkblast
1 disfigure
2 cryptic command
4 mana leak
3 spell snare
1 doom blade
4 inquisition of kozilek
1 consume the meek
1 surgical extraction
1 echoing truth
3 mystical teachings
3 esper charm
1 seachrome coast
1 hallowed fountain
1 watery grave
1 godless shrine
4 marsh flats
1 plains
1 swamp
3 island
3 misty rainforest
2 glacial fortress
1 drowned catacombs
1 tectonic edge
3 creeping tarpit
The problem with Performance is that it is a sorcery. Therefore we can't tutor for it or go EOT performance against tron (if you hit it on turn 5 chances are that they have a counter or gifts online (bad).
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Wurmcoil Engine
1 Baneslayer Angel
4 Snapcaster Mage
Spells [26]
1 Rest for the Weary
2 Spell Snare
4 Mana Leak
1 Condescend
1 Dissipate
1 Cryptic Command
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Disfigure
1 Path to Exile
1 Smother
1 Go for the Throat
1 Consume the Meek
1 Surgical Extraction
3 Esper Charm
3 Mystical Teachings
5 Island
1 Plains
3 Swamp
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Glacial Fortress
1 Watery Grave
3 Drowned Catacomb
1 Godless Shrine
4 Marsh Flats
1 Fetid Heath
2 Creeping Tar Pit
2 Calciform Pools
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
2 Night of Souls' Betrayal
1 Spell Snare
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Zealous Persecution
2 Dispel
1 Mimic Vat
2 Spellskite
1 Disenchant
3 Telemin Performance
That's my current list. I went down on spot removal and haven't had a chance to test it out yet. Ironically the few aggro/tempo decks I already have a good matchup against, so I thought I'd strengthen the other midrange/combo matchups instead.
I've still not gone 3-1 in a Modern daily yet, so don't think I'm claiming I've found the answer yet. Let me know if you have any questions or suggestions.
About your matchups, you listed...
Tron: Telemin Performance isn't tutorable, you're right, but the matchup is so abysmal and this card wrecks them, so I went up to 3 copies. It's an instant KO against Storm, as well. you also have Aven Mindcensor to fight Eye of Ugin. If I wasn't trying to limit my financial exposure, I'd experiment with Mindbreak Trap and Vendillion Clique, as well as take out a Inquisition of Kozilek for a Thoughtseize (Gifts is a key card). Honestly, I think If I could ever get a good draw against a Tron deck, White Sun's Zenith on turn 6-7 should be able to fire for 5 with Calciform Pools, putting them on a 1 turn clock. Still not ideal, since their ideal draw is a Tron set and Eye of Ugin tutoring on turn 5 or so.
Tempo: Here, we're basically just a tempo deck with a better end game. Their high-end is 4 Cryptic Command or the likes, while we have Mystical Teachings unlocking our whole deck. THis one normally turns into Snapcaster beats, with me bringing in Rest for the Weary and gaining half my life back. Then maybe dropping another Snapcaster and doing it again. Night of Soul's Betrayal (Curse of Death's Hold if you're running no Baneslayers or Wurmcoils) is as much a lock here as it is against Delver in Standard. They can't deal with it and the game is basically over.
Loam: Still haven't seen it...hopefully I never do. I think a second Surgical Extraction would be a good board, since that card + Snapcasters kills their whole deck, I imagine.
Affinity: This isn't very popular right now. I used to have multiple Zealous Persecution, but I'm saving sideboard room for what hits the hardest. We all know this deck draws well, or just goes belly up after a single sweeper.
Tokens: What a pain. I focus on the anthems and ignore the token generators. They probably won't realize they need to put you on a fast clock, not until you tutor Rest for the Weary. Zealous Persecution used to be maindeck for me when I was mostly focused on Aggro decks, but even with 1 in the sideboard it's a great sweeper. It also works well with WSZ. I'm hoping Baneslayer and Wurmcoil (both new additions) can help with this one.
Jund: I developed this deck playtesting against Jund because I imagined it was the deck to beat. This one is very much in our favor. As obnoxious as the deck is, it just doesn't have a fast enough clock, and once again, our end game is much stronger.
Another matchup I'd like to add to consideration is Birthing Pod. I threw in a Mimic Vat to test the waters and haven't drawn it yet. Only having a single sweeper, which doesn't hit higher CMC creatures is a pain. I just realized that Damnation is only $9 online, so I might try that in the sideboard. As far as their aggro and Melira combo, Night of Soul's betrayal is a hard lock if you can protect it. This matchup was the reason I replaced a Path to Exile with Disfigure and removed 2 others; the ramp you give them is actually relevant in this matchup.
All in all I feel Mystical Teachings has solid answers to everything, which is why I love it. I just haven't yet been able to make it work. I'm also limiting my investment in Modern and never even thought about some more expensive options. I might jump back into Magic League and give it a run there.
The gifts is a good point, since they're basically guaranteed to be able to answer it. I still would take it over Baneslayer or most any other threat, since they can't just shrug off one of their Eldrazi like they do Teferi or Wurmcoil.
Yeah, that is true. How good has wurmcoil been, seems good against jund. Thoughts on maybe sideboarding in echoing truths for the tokens matchup, they seem very good (dissipate seems good against souls too).
I would think that the red is just a handicap in slower matches. Care to post a list or tell us why red cards give you a better match?
That sounds like a great sideboard. I'm not sure if I would take it over a Night of Souls' Betrayal, though. I'll keep it in consideration.
Wurmcoil is great against any deck not running Path to Exile. I won a URG Delver match handily when this resolved, since they cant do anything about it.
I'm not sure that echoing truth is better than zealous persecution, but I haven't tried the card so I can't call it. I imagine it would be good to still have a card that can hit an anthem on an attack that should be lethal, making it a better sweeper. I know that they tend to run tokens of different types, so that would be a concern to me. I'd rather not comment to much when I haven't tried the card out yet.
Unless the Tokens player is smart and sideboarded Stony Silence.
this will be banned soon, or modern will die, but just wanted to share in case you haven't seen it.
Banned in Legacy maybe, but I don't see how Modern can exploit it...
^Liliana Vess wants to say hi! Seriously she just became one of the best PW out there.
Cockatrice username: Blackcat77
joke right?
1st place GPT Seattle
1st place GPT Anaheim
I joined a game called "tier 1, serious" and was kicked as soon as I played my Arcane Sanctum. I guess my opponent was clairvoyant. Oh well. I didn't feel like losing to Tron anyway.
So I went and lost to Storm instead.
That's a tribal card, really. Probably specifically targeting mono-color decks, like merfolk. I wouldn't worry about it too much.
if you have at least 3 copies of Temporal Mastery in your MD; you get 3 uninterrupted turns provided your Lili survives their one turn to answer her.
YT5: play lili, tutor Temporal Mastery. (3 counters)
OT5/6: ~~~~~~
YT6: Drawstep play Temporal Mastery. +1 Liliana (4 counters)
FreeTurn1: Lili Tutor Temporal Mastery (2 counters)
FreeTurn2: Lili Tutor Temporal Mastery (0 counters)
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
[82/360] Custom Cube
Blog about the Custom Cube
That's my point; it's a must answer at that point. If you can protect her for one turn, you basically win; if you want to run that package. I mean, you're playing Teachings, you probably have Slaughter Pact in the deck; and maybe you have a Clique down? So they need to have 3 creatures get to try to slam into her?
I'm not saying you should run that package because it'll be amazing; I was just entertaining the idea, and defending the previous poster from the derisive; "That's a joke, right?" comment.
Sig courtesy of DOLZero
[82/360] Custom Cube
Blog about the Custom Cube
Probably not viable in teachings, not a joke in general, but probably one in the context of this deck. You are basically TAPPING OUT on turn 5 for a do nothing effect that turn. This deck can't tap out turn 3-> mainphase for an effect that does affect the board (board wipe is an arguable exception). Obviously the comment was not called for, but it is kinda true in this deck.
Sidenote: I laughed at your signature, I read that gifts tournament report. I am sad that INS is off of esper teachings, if he is not playing hardcore teachings then we probably shouldn't be playing it either. I really wish that I could get that Storm control deck and also be a good enough player to pilot it well enough, but my budget is not ready for that and I would probably fizzle every time
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?p=8476353#post8476353
Or will that even work be good enough?