What do you guys think about repeal? I have found my self wanting it more and more as a silver bullet in the main.
I definitely think that having a repeal effect maindeck is mandatory. Sometimes I switch to into the roil depending on what decks are being played. It's much better to be able to pay 2 bounce larger threats such as Planeswalkers and big creatures. It is very important to have counter mana up or discard effect after a bounce so that you can hit it on the way back down (I play a few mana leaks, negate, a command, 4 esper charms, and 4-6 discards). Roil is much worse against aggro so I'm not sure which is right, I'd probably play repeal or two right now though.
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What do you guys think about repeal? I have found my self wanting it more and more as a silver bullet in the main.
That card's value has gotten way up on MTGO w/ the token decks running around. In response your polymorph, i'll bounce your token and draw a card. 2.5 for 1 ftw
Also, it's pretty good against blood moon whereas your other bounce spells can't even be played under a blood moon (cryptic, esper)
What do you guys think about repeal? I have found my self wanting it more and more as a silver bullet in the main.
I've always played it main. I wouldn't go without at least 1 maindeck in just about any blue deck in the format. Versatility without costing a card ? Absolutely.
Played right, you can buy yourself a ton of time with it against aggro as well, especially against creatures like Steppe Lynx, Student of Warfare, Serra Ascendant, or any token that gets made.
It also makes for some nice tricks you can pull, when you repeal your own snapcaster eot, draw a card, and get an additional activation out of tiago.
Would Grave Titan be a reasonable finisher or is it too unreliable? I love Grave Titan
Also what might a mana base look like if I wanted to play Wrath instead of Damnation? Just max out on the Fetid Heath and call it a day or would it substantially change the deck into more U/W than U/B/w?
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"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
For creatures I run 3 snap 1 tef and 1 titan, plus 4 manlands, i find titan is what is getting the W's 80 percent of the time. This is when it is relevant i mean, and in those cases if it doesnt win it for me it makes the opponent overextend to the point of where manlands and snaps can get there.
Right now I am working out on my stabilization though, gotta get to a lategame in order to make any of this work.
edit: and i would just test the heaths if that's the only changes you're making.
Eight filterlands seem like too much. If you get a hand with two filterlands as your only lands but some pretty cheap stuff otherwise, you'll know what I mean.
I don't like fatty finishers like Grave Titan without Teferi to give them Flash (and thus search them out with Mystical Teachings and stuff them in at EOT if your opponent doesn't do anything).
Please we have to address a very serious issue that I have seen in my testing with Junya Iyanaga and other Esper Teaching Variants.....
Junya Teachings
1. Storm
This is a difficult match-up, as they can use past in flames to recover the spells that you had made them discard. The benefit is that Esper Charm can attack their Ascension, but often that is not enough. Also Game 2, their Leyline of Sanctity blanks 8 of your cards. So I am thinking that perhaps a Mindbreak Trap is necessary.
2. Hive Mind
If you follow all the events with modern, you'll see that a variant has popped up. Proof . This is very difficult as it comes down to your ability to shred loose hands, but not having permission is very painful.(
Junya Iyanaga's deck suffers from its inability to fulfill its role as a blue deck, instead it plays a more rock style by gaining both card advantage off Esper Charms and also having strong hand disruption, and having great removal. Its for this reason that Junya Iyanaga Teachings Stomps: Zoo, Melria Combo, Burn, Rock, and Aggro.
Rock decks need 2 things together, in order to beat combo: Pressure and disruption. If you don't have both, you will lose. No amount of Thoughtseizes, Surgical Extractions, Esper Charms, or Leylines will win games against Storm unless you can back it up with beats or use stack interaction to shut down combo turns. For a deck that only has a handful of very killable and/or Remand-able threats, you're not going to get very far on a man-plan without fully transforming post-board.
Here is what we have to ask ourselves, what teaching variant do we need? Permission is great and all, but Junya Iyanaga went 5-0-1 for a reason. His deck was well tuned against the expected Zoo storm, but honestly I feel as though his deck simply folds to any deck that mandates permission. I need thoughts.
Junya Iyanaga did well at Worlds, but Modern was only played for 6 rounds over a weekend with a bunch of formats. How many pros spent more than a day or two preparing for Modern at this event? Probably not very many. This conjecture is supported by the lack of effort that pros have consistently had at Worlds over the past few years in formats like Extended and Legacy; you can read about their sloppiness in the coverage.
My favorite example is the time a couple of years ago when Paul Cheon was playing Dreadstill in the team event, and he had a Standstill on the table. His opponent played a spell, which caused Standstill to trigger. Paul stated that he was going to draw 3 cards. The opponent made a blunder, casting Stifle targetting the trigger. Well, that doesn't work. All the Stifle does is tell Standstill that your opponent has casted another spell, so Standstill triggers again in response. To make things worse, when Paul explained this to his opponent, the guy Stifled it again and Paul got a 5-for-1. Now, this would be acceptable if it was an obscure card that never saw any tournament play, but Standstill has been a dominant staple for years and across multiple formats, and it was presently a very popularly played card in the Legacy metagame. So there was literally no excuse for that pro's enormous pair of blunders--but those kinds of plays happen consistently because nobody cares enough to test and practice the axillary formats at Worlds.
Suffice to say: I don't trust anything from Worlds' results page. It's good to look for ideas in every possible place, but I wouldn't take Worlds' results more seriously than that of an MTGO daily--and I certainly will trust PTQ Top 8 decks way more than both of those sources (when the time comes).
The Alternative would be to compile some Standard Teaching deck. One that has permission, Example. But my biggest concern is that I feel there is an opening for a storm deck. Past in Flames has given Storm decks the ability to combo twice!
Your control deck should be built to account for Past in Flames (and a lot of other recursion) with maindeck, accessible graveyard disruption. Period. This format demands that kind of answer for most of the match-ups.
Note: I do not like Teferi. In this day and age he seems unnecessary in the main deck, the SB is a better home as you can bring him in against mirror, and splinter Twin, to negate all their 1 mana counter spells.
I probably should just sit down some day and write an essay about Teferi, because I'm gradually doing it over the course of a number of discussions.
To put things simply, Teferi is a creature that perfectly fits the role of 'finisher' for a control deck.
1. It's difficult to remove. Because you flash it in and your opponent can't kill it until his turn, you have the ability to back it up with countermagic. It protects itself, in that way. It also protects other ways of winning the game in the same manner, and it also can eat removal before you run something else out there. In addition, it is outside Bolt/Helix/Smother/Engineered Explosives range, meaning your opponent needs some specific removal to deal with it.
2. It has the capability to play offense and defense. If you need to shut down some kind of attack, a 3/4 creature is very respectable. That's bigger than Bloodbraid Elf, Treetop Village, Snapcaster Mage, and a number of other creatures. I'm not just talking about throwing it in before blockers as a surprise--I'm also talking about playing it EoT to produce some kind of board position.
3. As a Flash creature, it is very capable of manhandling planeswalkers.
4. The "your opponent can't play outside his main phases" clause is not to be underestimated. You completely warp game states with that. It shuts down:
In addition, Teferi is a solid beater for killing combo decks. Not only does it turn off Remand/Spell Pierce/Dispel/Pact of Negation and force Gigadrowse to be casted in Main Phase 1 of your opponent's turn; it also is outside of Bolt Range and bounce spells are awful against him.
At worst, Teferi is in your deck as a way of finding another finisher (Teachings can find any creature while Teferi is on the table), and it allows you to run any creature out on your opponent's turn (such as in-combat Baneslayer or EoT anything).
Teferi is seriously the best primary win condition for control in this format. (I say primary because you should have some other way of winning games if your opponent Extirpates or otherwise removes all your Teferis, and because it's usually a good idea to have some diversity amongst win conditions.)
Goodness INS, I was just thinking earlier this morning about why teferi was absent from the average esper list, with some distaste for the lack of teachings players' best finisher, and then you drop this on people. Honestly I believe you dont need more than teferi as a finisher these days.
As I had learned when I started picking up control decks, damage can come later, but it has to be reliable in conjunction with the general engine of the deck. So my statement is a suggestion that, the fact that you need teferi to give another creature flash so you could search for it, makes any other creature that is being used as a 1 or 2 of very shaky.
Control decks are entire networks these days, if you dont have the means to find an aspect of your network within a reasonable ammount of time that network needs to be fixed before go-time because during go-time you as the network manager have other things to stress over; and it isnt very good to rely on a finisher you cant reach ...like the guy without a cell phone whom you need to get in contact with.
Long story short, you gotta cut out the middleman, so give the middleman the spotlight, and cut out the end-guy, because if you kow how to work with him he gets things done (teferi doesnt dual weild magnums, but he collets kills just the same).
I would even say that the Geist of Saint Trafts that people are running out of the board would be detrimental tech if they didnt have hexproof...but they are running 3 of them so they can be found in a reasonable ammount of time when teachings needs to change gears
In addition, white sun's zenith is basically a finisher in itself, one that adds to the potential for tight play with teachngs because it already has such a wide variet of potential uses, so like teferi it is a card that has the potential to fill many roles in addition to being the endgame plan.
now, teferi-toolbox is a whole different argument but I do think the finisher discussion needs to have this piece of information considered for optimal player ability.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
The real problem with teachings is that it doesn't have any inevitability as a control deck. I've noticed this several times because I don't have any gas late game a lot of times. I think that the way to solve the inevitability problem is to play some number of planeswalkers. I'm thinking elspeth shows the most promise.
The problem of inevitability is definitely present in a lot of lists, but that's definitely no fault of the Teachings engine itself. Teachings will find you what you need and then chain into more Teachings. When the chain runs out, you should have something that gives you inevitability. Sometimes, that means Teferi-->Dralnu (or some other creature-based endgame) with the last Teachings and its flashback. Sometimes, it's a creature that already has flash (a la Cloudthresher or Bogardan Hellkite). Sometimes, it's a Blue Sun's Zenith or a White Sun's Zenith. But if these plans aren't working out in the metagame because they are functionally weak to present hate/removal/disruption, then it's time to look for something else.
I don't particularly like planeswalkers for a number of reasons (most of which is personal preference), but I could see that being a good way to close out games--that has always been one of their major uses. To me, though, the endgame should follow along with the rest of the deck's plans. You want to keep things instant-speed if possible, and you want to keep things tutorable by the Teachings chain. The direction in which this has taken me is to play a hybrid control deck with both the Teachings engine and the Gifts engine, as both of those find each other and both can find you the answers you need. Teachings can get you Teferi and some other specific cards, whereas Gifts will generally get you something you want and have the capability to set up things like Loam engines and Academy Ruins locks--or to more reliably find Urza's Factory/Tar Pit and Loam it into use.
The real problem with teachings is that it doesn't have any inevitability as a control deck. I've noticed this several times because I don't have any gas late game a lot of times. I think that the way to solve the inevitability problem is to play some number of planeswalkers. I'm thinking elspeth shows the most promise.
Honestly, I've found the complete opposite when playing teachings. Typically if I load up a teachings deck, I'll know at some given point (typically after resolving my initial mystical teachings) that it's just a matter of time before I win, and I'll generally reach a critical mass of card advantage, that it'll be pretty impossible for an opponent to find a way through. The only decks that give me tons of trouble when I play teachings are blue-based tempo decks, but I just think that's going to be a naturally bad matchup, as most tempo decks beat straight up control decks head on.
I've honestly found Forbidden Alchemy to be pretty important to have in achieving inevitability, since it really gives you tons of options, between digging for more gas, while also pitching cards to the graveyard for Snapcaster to use, or cards to the graveyard that already have flashback.
I tried replacing Alchemy with Peer through the depths, and it just didn't function nearly like I had wanted it to. I've always been on board White Sun's Zenith as the best "inevitability" finisher, since at some given point, it's going to create a critical mass of bears and just win for you. I would advise heavily to play Zenith in tandem with 2-3 Dreadship Reef however, since reef can accelerate into an alpha strike much quicker with Zenith.
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The real problem with teachings is that it doesn't have any inevitability as a control deck. I've noticed this several times because I don't have any gas late game a lot of times. I think that the way to solve the inevitability problem is to play some number of planeswalkers. I'm thinking elspeth shows the most promise.
That's not a problem if you run Dralnu. Being able to re-use every single spell makes it very difficult to run out of gas unless you're playing someone with an equal amount of gas, which should only happen in the mirror match, or maybe against Past in Flames.
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penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
The real problem with teachings is that it doesn't have any inevitability as a control deck.
I was thinking a bit more about this, and I want to ask you something: How often do you Teachings for another Teachings? How often do you Teachings for a draw spell, rather than for an answer? And how often do you throw Esper Charms at your opponent's face? These are some things to think about when you play games. I know that 4 Charms, 3 Teachings, and an Ingenuity should easily be enough draw power to win you attrition wars--but if you're using Charms as Mind Rots and/or you're not chaining Teachings together, the draw engine isn't going to do what it's designed to do.
This doesn't mean it's a fault of the player--sometimes you have to Teachings for 2 answers and break your chain and sometimes you really should be Mind Rotting your opponent with a Charm. The issue at hand is that, in some match-ups, you will be taking those kinds of...shall we say... more aggressive actions. And sometimes, your opponent counters or Duresses away pieces of your draw engine, which disrupts the chain of card advantage. When this is the case, you're going to need more draw spells. This is why I feel like you really should be playing upwards of 10-11 draw spells, or at least be prepared to board them in for some grinding attrition wars. Something to think about, anyways.
That's an interesting deck you got there. I'd be interested to play around with it. Out of curiosity, what made you deviate from Teachings into this strategy?
On another note, I had 2 pm's asking me for what I was currently playing with - So I'll just post a list i'm playing with right here.
I pulled back a bit of the removal, and cut main-deck life gain (outside tribute to hunger) due to changes in the meta, now that Zoo isn't the biggest target.
I very rarely use my Esper charms as Discard effects, unless I know that the 2 cards I hit will absolutely be relevant discards. The 2x Spell Snares, 1x Countersquall, and 1x Delay have been really nice maindeck, and I've found that even against aggro, they're rarely dead. They're actually particularly nice against burn decks too (which the matchup is decidedly worse without maindeck rest for the weary or pulse of the fields). Having more "hard" counter against decks like Tron also helps a ton.
I put Pithing needles in here, since I've found more and more decks playing planeswalkers, which unfortunately, are pretty problematic for a deck without burn, or tons of creatures to attack with. That being said, needles are good against more than walkers, since they're live cards against tons of decks (stops martyr cold, wrecks planeswalkers, prevents mindslaver from activating, is really strong against Melira combo, really strong against Eggs combo, really strong against random Protean Hulk combos.. you get the idea)
One tech-ish card I've been really enjoying is Peek, since it really just gives you tons and tons of value as a control player knowing what you have to play around. It also allows you to play snapcaster end of turn as a simple cantripper (which also lets you peek), which while not usually the best play, is nice to have at times.
One thing of note is that I'm only playing 25 lands. I traditionally skimp on lands as a control player, but I feel it's rather justified, since getting to 3 lands basically ensures you're going to hit your land drops due to card drawing effects, while also drawing into further teachings.
I find it rather rare that I chain teachings for other teachings, but if I'm in a game mode where I have nothing better to do than that, I've already won, and chances are, i'm tutoring up a Zenith to begin the end-game process.
The inquisitions in the sideboard are a tribute to the increased presence of blue-based tempo decks in the format, since they're generally stronger against them than playing straight up permission would be. They're also obviously relevant against combo decks when coupled with main-deck extraction effects.
-I know the value of Teferi, and I've played with and without him. Right now, I don't really want to be playing with him, since it's all about keeping your deck as dense as possible with answers & gas. Teferi demands a build featuring more creatures typically, and that's just not the route I want to go to. I would consider playing him in the sideboard if more control mirrors showed up however.
One of the lesser-talked about values you get from Zenith over Teferi as well, is that makes decks running "hard" removal entirely dead to you, since there really isn't a single target you play that they can get any value off removing.
I'm not sure if all the utility lands are completely necessary, but they seemed alright, not sure.
It's very hard to tell if a mana base is good enough without a deck list or at least some idea, sometimes you may be much heavier in some colors. That being said, I think that you're probably alright with that build, it looks pretty solid. I would maybe cut a island/tolaria west for something else depending on your build.
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Have any of you considered a trinket mage package? Find Nihil spellbombs, engineered explosives, pithing needled (deal with vial, planeswalkers, help vs equipment !cranial plating!) and elixir of immortality to recur instants with mystical teachings/ defend vs extirpate and also of course gain 5 life vs fast decks?
Have any of you considered a trinket mage package? Find Nihil spellbombs, engineered explosives, pithing needled (deal with vial, planeswalkers, help vs equipment !cranial plating!) and elixir of immortality to recur instants with mystical teachings/ defend vs extirpate and also of course gain 5 life vs fast decks?
Yeah, I tried the trinket package (sideboard) for a while but eventually discarded it because it wasn't doing enough for me without playing 3-4 trinket mages and that took up way too much room in the deck/board and also made the deck lose its instant speed play style.
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Played a couple games tonight. I dunno. Felt like playing Magic, I guess. I don't think I'll be back to playing much any time soon, though.
But while Magic is on my mind, I gotta say: Rewind is better than Cryptic Command. I changed my three Cryptics into Rewinds and I'm never going back. It's just too good.
Also, if you're playing the Zenith version and you don't have Calciform Pools, you're doing it wrong. Pop a couple of them suckers in. For serious.
I have been testing a lot more. Against jund that is really really hard to beat. It is a constant up hill battle. I am starting to think i will want a baneslayer instead of grave titan in the main. I also feel like i need another wrath effect. Consume the meek has been a house so far. I am playing it as a single in the main as a teachings target. It has been really good but i hate how it does not stop bloodbraid elf.
Here is my most updated list:
The manabase seems like it could use some help it can be hard having triple blue, double black and at times have double white or white early enough to cast a lot of support spells.
Right now i need to i think switch out the titan for baneslayer. And also make room for a repeal.
I have been testing a lot more. Against jund that is really really hard to beat. It is a constant up hill battle. I am starting to think i will want a baneslayer instead of grave titan in the main. I also feel like i need another wrath effect. Consume the meek has been a house so far. I am playing it as a single in the main as a teachings target. It has been really good but i hate how it does not stop bloodbraid elf.
Here is my most updated list:
The manabase seems like it could use some help it can be hard having triple blue, double black and at times have double white or white early enough to cast a lot of support spells.
Right now i need to i think switch out the titan for baneslayer. And also make room for a repeal.
A few thoughts:
The Filter lands make it pretty easy to hit UUU if you need it, so I might cut a few Ravnica Duals for a Sunken Ruins and another Mystic Gate.
Also, you have the full 4 Mana Leaks and 4 CC, so you might consider cutting Spell Snare if you want the Repeal and a Damnation. My list is quite close to this one after something like:
I am running Grave Titan fine though, never having any problems, though I think I have a Wurmcoil MD as well. I moved the Clique to the SB. To me, it felt counter-intuitive to run this guy MD, as I was playing mostly reactive stuff until I wore them down, never really trying to get their with the Clique, Tar Pits, and Snapcasters anyway. But I do like him against decks like Storm and Splinter Twin, providing some clock and disruption - he just never really felt right in the aggro matchups and such.
Why? Isn't a single removal a way better than a blue Char?
Yeah, I do not really see the advantage to playing it over a Dismember (which is probably worse than an extra GftT/Doom Blade). Unless of course you're planning to burn some people out and if it true that burn to the face has reached esper teachings, then it is now official, the world is indeed ending in 2012.
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it can be used versus planeswalker. still bad anyway
Yeah, missed that, but it still doesn't necessarily kill them. You have one turn to hit Lily, .5 turns to hit Elspeth. Still seems bad, but that is a valid argument that I missed. My apologies fair people of the teachings thread.
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I definitely think that having a repeal effect maindeck is mandatory. Sometimes I switch to into the roil depending on what decks are being played. It's much better to be able to pay 2 bounce larger threats such as Planeswalkers and big creatures. It is very important to have counter mana up or discard effect after a bounce so that you can hit it on the way back down (I play a few mana leaks, negate, a command, 4 esper charms, and 4-6 discards). Roil is much worse against aggro so I'm not sure which is right, I'd probably play repeal or two right now though.
That card's value has gotten way up on MTGO w/ the token decks running around. In response your polymorph, i'll bounce your token and draw a card. 2.5 for 1 ftw
Also, it's pretty good against blood moon whereas your other bounce spells can't even be played under a blood moon (cryptic, esper)
I've always played it main. I wouldn't go without at least 1 maindeck in just about any blue deck in the format. Versatility without costing a card ? Absolutely.
Played right, you can buy yourself a ton of time with it against aggro as well, especially against creatures like Steppe Lynx, Student of Warfare, Serra Ascendant, or any token that gets made.
It also makes for some nice tricks you can pull, when you repeal your own snapcaster eot, draw a card, and get an additional activation out of tiago.
Also what might a mana base look like if I wanted to play Wrath instead of Damnation? Just max out on the Fetid Heath and call it a day or would it substantially change the deck into more U/W than U/B/w?
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
Right now I am working out on my stabilization though, gotta get to a lategame in order to make any of this work.
edit: and i would just test the heaths if that's the only changes you're making.
How does this look so far:
4 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grave Titan
Other Spells - 28
4 Path to Exile
4 Esper Charm
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Mystical Teachings
2 Wrath of God
1 White Sun's Zenith
1 Cryptic Command
1 Gifts Ungiven
1 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Consume the Meek
1 Remand
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Pact of Negation
4 Creeping Tar Pit
4 Marsh Flats
4 Fetid Heath
4 Mystic Gate
4 Isolated Chapel
1 Watery Grave
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Godless Shrine
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Swamp
I've been a RDW player my whole life so I'm awful with lands
"Of course you should fight fire with fire. You should fight everything with fire." - Jaya Ballard
I don't like fatty finishers like Grave Titan without Teferi to give them Flash (and thus search them out with Mystical Teachings and stuff them in at EOT if your opponent doesn't do anything).
Rock decks need 2 things together, in order to beat combo: Pressure and disruption. If you don't have both, you will lose. No amount of Thoughtseizes, Surgical Extractions, Esper Charms, or Leylines will win games against Storm unless you can back it up with beats or use stack interaction to shut down combo turns. For a deck that only has a handful of very killable and/or Remand-able threats, you're not going to get very far on a man-plan without fully transforming post-board.
Junya Iyanaga did well at Worlds, but Modern was only played for 6 rounds over a weekend with a bunch of formats. How many pros spent more than a day or two preparing for Modern at this event? Probably not very many. This conjecture is supported by the lack of effort that pros have consistently had at Worlds over the past few years in formats like Extended and Legacy; you can read about their sloppiness in the coverage.
My favorite example is the time a couple of years ago when Paul Cheon was playing Dreadstill in the team event, and he had a Standstill on the table. His opponent played a spell, which caused Standstill to trigger. Paul stated that he was going to draw 3 cards. The opponent made a blunder, casting Stifle targetting the trigger. Well, that doesn't work. All the Stifle does is tell Standstill that your opponent has casted another spell, so Standstill triggers again in response. To make things worse, when Paul explained this to his opponent, the guy Stifled it again and Paul got a 5-for-1. Now, this would be acceptable if it was an obscure card that never saw any tournament play, but Standstill has been a dominant staple for years and across multiple formats, and it was presently a very popularly played card in the Legacy metagame. So there was literally no excuse for that pro's enormous pair of blunders--but those kinds of plays happen consistently because nobody cares enough to test and practice the axillary formats at Worlds.
Suffice to say: I don't trust anything from Worlds' results page. It's good to look for ideas in every possible place, but I wouldn't take Worlds' results more seriously than that of an MTGO daily--and I certainly will trust PTQ Top 8 decks way more than both of those sources (when the time comes).
Your control deck should be built to account for Past in Flames (and a lot of other recursion) with maindeck, accessible graveyard disruption. Period. This format demands that kind of answer for most of the match-ups.
I probably should just sit down some day and write an essay about Teferi, because I'm gradually doing it over the course of a number of discussions.
To put things simply, Teferi is a creature that perfectly fits the role of 'finisher' for a control deck.
1. It's difficult to remove. Because you flash it in and your opponent can't kill it until his turn, you have the ability to back it up with countermagic. It protects itself, in that way. It also protects other ways of winning the game in the same manner, and it also can eat removal before you run something else out there. In addition, it is outside Bolt/Helix/Smother/Engineered Explosives range, meaning your opponent needs some specific removal to deal with it.
2. It has the capability to play offense and defense. If you need to shut down some kind of attack, a 3/4 creature is very respectable. That's bigger than Bloodbraid Elf, Treetop Village, Snapcaster Mage, and a number of other creatures. I'm not just talking about throwing it in before blockers as a surprise--I'm also talking about playing it EoT to produce some kind of board position.
3. As a Flash creature, it is very capable of manhandling planeswalkers.
4. The "your opponent can't play outside his main phases" clause is not to be underestimated. You completely warp game states with that. It shuts down:
-Suspend cards (Lotus Bloom, Rift Bolt, suspended Living End, etc)
-Cascade (BBElf, Restore Balance, Living End)
-Isochron Scepter
-Hideaway Lands
-Opposing countermagic
In addition, Teferi is a solid beater for killing combo decks. Not only does it turn off Remand/Spell Pierce/Dispel/Pact of Negation and force Gigadrowse to be casted in Main Phase 1 of your opponent's turn; it also is outside of Bolt Range and bounce spells are awful against him.
At worst, Teferi is in your deck as a way of finding another finisher (Teachings can find any creature while Teferi is on the table), and it allows you to run any creature out on your opponent's turn (such as in-combat Baneslayer or EoT anything).
Teferi is seriously the best primary win condition for control in this format. (I say primary because you should have some other way of winning games if your opponent Extirpates or otherwise removes all your Teferis, and because it's usually a good idea to have some diversity amongst win conditions.)
As I had learned when I started picking up control decks, damage can come later, but it has to be reliable in conjunction with the general engine of the deck. So my statement is a suggestion that, the fact that you need teferi to give another creature flash so you could search for it, makes any other creature that is being used as a 1 or 2 of very shaky.
Control decks are entire networks these days, if you dont have the means to find an aspect of your network within a reasonable ammount of time that network needs to be fixed before go-time because during go-time you as the network manager have other things to stress over; and it isnt very good to rely on a finisher you cant reach ...like the guy without a cell phone whom you need to get in contact with.
Long story short, you gotta cut out the middleman, so give the middleman the spotlight, and cut out the end-guy, because if you kow how to work with him he gets things done (teferi doesnt dual weild magnums, but he collets kills just the same).
I would even say that the Geist of Saint Trafts that people are running out of the board would be detrimental tech if they didnt have hexproof...but they are running 3 of them so they can be found in a reasonable ammount of time when teachings needs to change gears
In addition, white sun's zenith is basically a finisher in itself, one that adds to the potential for tight play with teachngs because it already has such a wide variet of potential uses, so like teferi it is a card that has the potential to fill many roles in addition to being the endgame plan.
now, teferi-toolbox is a whole different argument but I do think the finisher discussion needs to have this piece of information considered for optimal player ability.
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
I don't particularly like planeswalkers for a number of reasons (most of which is personal preference), but I could see that being a good way to close out games--that has always been one of their major uses. To me, though, the endgame should follow along with the rest of the deck's plans. You want to keep things instant-speed if possible, and you want to keep things tutorable by the Teachings chain. The direction in which this has taken me is to play a hybrid control deck with both the Teachings engine and the Gifts engine, as both of those find each other and both can find you the answers you need. Teachings can get you Teferi and some other specific cards, whereas Gifts will generally get you something you want and have the capability to set up things like Loam engines and Academy Ruins locks--or to more reliably find Urza's Factory/Tar Pit and Loam it into use.
Honestly, I've found the complete opposite when playing teachings. Typically if I load up a teachings deck, I'll know at some given point (typically after resolving my initial mystical teachings) that it's just a matter of time before I win, and I'll generally reach a critical mass of card advantage, that it'll be pretty impossible for an opponent to find a way through. The only decks that give me tons of trouble when I play teachings are blue-based tempo decks, but I just think that's going to be a naturally bad matchup, as most tempo decks beat straight up control decks head on.
I've honestly found Forbidden Alchemy to be pretty important to have in achieving inevitability, since it really gives you tons of options, between digging for more gas, while also pitching cards to the graveyard for Snapcaster to use, or cards to the graveyard that already have flashback.
I tried replacing Alchemy with Peer through the depths, and it just didn't function nearly like I had wanted it to. I've always been on board White Sun's Zenith as the best "inevitability" finisher, since at some given point, it's going to create a critical mass of bears and just win for you. I would advise heavily to play Zenith in tandem with 2-3 Dreadship Reef however, since reef can accelerate into an alpha strike much quicker with Zenith.
That's not a problem if you run Dralnu. Being able to re-use every single spell makes it very difficult to run out of gas unless you're playing someone with an equal amount of gas, which should only happen in the mirror match, or maybe against Past in Flames.
"I am confident that if anyone actually
penetrates our facades, even the most
perceptive would still be fundamentally
unprepared for the truth of House Dimir."
I was thinking a bit more about this, and I want to ask you something: How often do you Teachings for another Teachings? How often do you Teachings for a draw spell, rather than for an answer? And how often do you throw Esper Charms at your opponent's face? These are some things to think about when you play games. I know that 4 Charms, 3 Teachings, and an Ingenuity should easily be enough draw power to win you attrition wars--but if you're using Charms as Mind Rots and/or you're not chaining Teachings together, the draw engine isn't going to do what it's designed to do.
This doesn't mean it's a fault of the player--sometimes you have to Teachings for 2 answers and break your chain and sometimes you really should be Mind Rotting your opponent with a Charm. The issue at hand is that, in some match-ups, you will be taking those kinds of...shall we say... more aggressive actions. And sometimes, your opponent counters or Duresses away pieces of your draw engine, which disrupts the chain of card advantage. When this is the case, you're going to need more draw spells. This is why I feel like you really should be playing upwards of 10-11 draw spells, or at least be prepared to board them in for some grinding attrition wars. Something to think about, anyways.
Sure. It is definitely not Esper Teachings, but it evolved from a UWBG Teachings-based deck.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Graven Cairns
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urza's Factory
4 Desperate Ravings
1 Mystical Teachings
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Grim Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
1 Oona's Grace
4 Rune Snag
2 Remand
1 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Rewind
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cryptic Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Repeal
1 Terminate
1 Putrefy
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Firespout
1 Consume the Meek
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Memory's Journey
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Detritivore
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Flashfreeze
1 Pithing Needle
1 Jund Charm
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Seize the Soul
4 Death's Shadow
It's highly experimental, so don't expect everything to run smoothly...though the draw engine is about where I want it.
On another note, I had 2 pm's asking me for what I was currently playing with - So I'll just post a list i'm playing with right here.
3x Snapcaster Mage
Card Advantage // Card Draw
3x Mystical Teachings
4x Esper Charm
2x Forbidden Alchemy
1x Think Twice
Removal / Bounce
4x Path to Exile
1x Repeal
1x Smother
1x Tribute to Hunger
1x Consume the Meek
Utility
1x Extirpate
1x Peek
Permission
3x Cryptic Command
4x Mana Leak
2x Spell Snare
1x Delay
1x Countersquall
1x White Sun's Zenith
2x Creeping Tar Pit
3x Glacial Fortress
1x Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2x Dreadship Reef
4x Marsh Flats
1x Godless Shrine
1x Watery Grave
2x Hallowed Fountain
3x Island
1x Plains
1x Swamp
1x River of Tears
2x Mystic Gate
1x Drowned Catacomb
1x Spell Snare
1x Countersquall
1x Consume the Meek
1x Disenchant
1x Vendilion Clique
1x Doom Blade
1x Condemn
1x Rest for the Weary
1x Pulse of the Fields
2x Pithing Needle
4x Inquisition of Kozilek
I pulled back a bit of the removal, and cut main-deck life gain (outside tribute to hunger) due to changes in the meta, now that Zoo isn't the biggest target.
I very rarely use my Esper charms as Discard effects, unless I know that the 2 cards I hit will absolutely be relevant discards. The 2x Spell Snares, 1x Countersquall, and 1x Delay have been really nice maindeck, and I've found that even against aggro, they're rarely dead. They're actually particularly nice against burn decks too (which the matchup is decidedly worse without maindeck rest for the weary or pulse of the fields). Having more "hard" counter against decks like Tron also helps a ton.
I put Pithing needles in here, since I've found more and more decks playing planeswalkers, which unfortunately, are pretty problematic for a deck without burn, or tons of creatures to attack with. That being said, needles are good against more than walkers, since they're live cards against tons of decks (stops martyr cold, wrecks planeswalkers, prevents mindslaver from activating, is really strong against Melira combo, really strong against Eggs combo, really strong against random Protean Hulk combos.. you get the idea)
One tech-ish card I've been really enjoying is Peek, since it really just gives you tons and tons of value as a control player knowing what you have to play around. It also allows you to play snapcaster end of turn as a simple cantripper (which also lets you peek), which while not usually the best play, is nice to have at times.
One thing of note is that I'm only playing 25 lands. I traditionally skimp on lands as a control player, but I feel it's rather justified, since getting to 3 lands basically ensures you're going to hit your land drops due to card drawing effects, while also drawing into further teachings.
I find it rather rare that I chain teachings for other teachings, but if I'm in a game mode where I have nothing better to do than that, I've already won, and chances are, i'm tutoring up a Zenith to begin the end-game process.
The inquisitions in the sideboard are a tribute to the increased presence of blue-based tempo decks in the format, since they're generally stronger against them than playing straight up permission would be. They're also obviously relevant against combo decks when coupled with main-deck extraction effects.
-I know the value of Teferi, and I've played with and without him. Right now, I don't really want to be playing with him, since it's all about keeping your deck as dense as possible with answers & gas. Teferi demands a build featuring more creatures typically, and that's just not the route I want to go to. I would consider playing him in the sideboard if more control mirrors showed up however.
One of the lesser-talked about values you get from Zenith over Teferi as well, is that makes decks running "hard" removal entirely dead to you, since there really isn't a single target you play that they can get any value off removing.
I'm not sure if all the utility lands are completely necessary, but they seemed alright, not sure.
It's very hard to tell if a mana base is good enough without a deck list or at least some idea, sometimes you may be much heavier in some colors. That being said, I think that you're probably alright with that build, it looks pretty solid. I would maybe cut a island/tolaria west for something else depending on your build.
Yeah, I tried the trinket package (sideboard) for a while but eventually discarded it because it wasn't doing enough for me without playing 3-4 trinket mages and that took up way too much room in the deck/board and also made the deck lose its instant speed play style.
Played a couple games tonight. I dunno. Felt like playing Magic, I guess. I don't think I'll be back to playing much any time soon, though.
But while Magic is on my mind, I gotta say: Rewind is better than Cryptic Command. I changed my three Cryptics into Rewinds and I'm never going back. It's just too good.
Also, if you're playing the Zenith version and you don't have Calciform Pools, you're doing it wrong. Pop a couple of them suckers in. For serious.
Peace, Teachers. Stay classy.
Here is my most updated list:
1 grave titan
1 vendillion clique
4 snapcaster mage
4 cryptic command
4 mana leak
4 esper charm
3 mystical teachings
3 path to exile
3 inquisition of kozilek
2 spell snare
1 smother
1 slaughter pact
1 go for the throat
1 rest for the weary
1 consume the meek
1 swamp
1 planes
4 marsh flats
3 hallowed fountain
2 watery grave
1 godless shrine
2 creeping tar pit
2 drowned catacomb
2 glacial fortress
1 isolated chapel
1 mystic gate
The manabase seems like it could use some help it can be hard having triple blue, double black and at times have double white or white early enough to cast a lot of support spells.
Right now i need to i think switch out the titan for baneslayer. And also make room for a repeal.
A few thoughts:
The Filter lands make it pretty easy to hit UUU if you need it, so I might cut a few Ravnica Duals for a Sunken Ruins and another Mystic Gate.
Also, you have the full 4 Mana Leaks and 4 CC, so you might consider cutting Spell Snare if you want the Repeal and a Damnation. My list is quite close to this one after something like:
-2 Hallowed Fountain (or whatever)
-2 Spell Snare
+1 Repeal
+1 Damnation
+1 Mystic Gate
+1 Sunken Ruins
I am running Grave Titan fine though, never having any problems, though I think I have a Wurmcoil MD as well. I moved the Clique to the SB. To me, it felt counter-intuitive to run this guy MD, as I was playing mostly reactive stuff until I wore them down, never really trying to get their with the Clique, Tar Pits, and Snapcasters anyway. But I do like him against decks like Storm and Splinter Twin, providing some clock and disruption - he just never really felt right in the aggro matchups and such.
Sig by DNC/HotP Studios
Yeah, I do not really see the advantage to playing it over a Dismember (which is probably worse than an extra GftT/Doom Blade). Unless of course you're planning to burn some people out and if it true that burn to the face has reached esper teachings, then it is now official, the world is indeed ending in 2012.
Yeah, missed that, but it still doesn't necessarily kill them. You have one turn to hit Lily, .5 turns to hit Elspeth. Still seems bad, but that is a valid argument that I missed. My apologies fair people of the teachings thread.