Sideboard cards for the mirror and against Jund?

  • #1
    Okay, so this is my post-banning Zoo list:

    4 Goblin Guide
    4 Kird Ape
    4 Loam Lion
    4 Qasali Pridemage
    4 Tarmogoyf
    3 Doran, the Siege Tower

    4 Lightning Bolt
    4 Lightning Helix
    4 Tribal Flames
    4 Path to Exile

    4 Arid Mesa
    4 Scalding Tarn
    4 Misty Rainforest
    3 Stomping Ground
    2 Hallowed Fountain
    1 Blood Crypt
    1 Overgrown Tomb
    1 Forest
    1 Plains

    Sideboard
    4 Negate
    3 Unified Will
    4 Slay
    2 Timely Reinforcements
    2 Damping Matrix

    I'm reasonably satisfied with it, but I need a bit of sideboard help. I'm pretty happy with the counterspells - I bring them in against Storm and Splinter Twin combo as well as U/x control - but I'm having trouble with sideboarding against the various aggro and midrange decks in the format. Specifically, I need to use the remaining 8 slots to cover the mirror, Jund, Affinity, and Burn. Oh, and any splash damage on Project Melira is nice too. (I'm willing to write off the Martyr-Proclamation matchup.)

    Beating Affinity and Burn is straightforward, if not exactly easy - board in the appropriate hate cards and hope to draw them. I used to have Basilisk Collar in the Timely Reinforcements slot and Ancient Grudge in the Damping Matrix slot, but I figured that Damping Matrix would also be helpful against Project Melira and Splinter Twin, and that Timely Reinforcements would probably be reasonable against Affinity as well.

    So my current plans against those two decks are:

    Affinity: -4 Goblin Guide +2 Damping Matrix +2 Timely Reinforcements
    Burn: -4 Goblin Guide +2 Timely Reinforcements +2 Negate

    I haven't actually managed to *test* this Affinity plan, though.

    Unfortunately, the best sideboard plan I found for the mirror and Jund matchups was Slay, which is acceptable but is far from a knockout punch. Jund in particular is a real pain. Between Bloodbraid Elf, Kitchen Finks, and Liliana of the Veil, they're really good at winning attrition wars and they're also pretty good at stopping the initial rush. I want something better, but I'm worried about my ability to cast anything that costs more than three mana. Reid Duke said the card that he most hates to see out of a Zoo deck when playing Jund was Elspeth Knight-Errant; should I try it?

    Anyone here have any other ideas? I might be able to go back down to six counterspells instead of seven, but I really need to have one when I face the Storm combo matchup...
  • #2
    I would actually remove goblin guide if your having problems with jund or the mirror. It is the worst 1 drop you could ever have against the mirror.


    also doran is pretty terrible against both of those decks because they run goyfs. Knight of the reliquary is tons better, and 1-2 giest of saint traft is pretty good against both decks. you could add one of those in and put another in the sideboard.

    You could also take a different approach with your deck by adding noble heiarch in place of goblin guide and run a couple of planeswalkers main/side to get a few % against zoo and jund.

    Other than this there is not a whole lot you can do to make it better other than running a version of zoo that is good against the mirror.
    In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.


    Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
    Albert Einstein


    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    Thomas Jefferson

    League of Legends on MTGS
  • #3
    Quote from slipknot72102
    I would actually remove goblin guide if your having problems with jund or the mirror. It is the worst 1 drop you could ever have against the mirror.


    Yeah, I know. It sucks, but I think it's still the best Wild Nacatl replacement I've got left. At least it makes it easy to know what to sideboard out!

    also doran is pretty terrible against both of those decks because they run goyfs. Knight of the reliquary is tons better, and 1-2 giest of saint traft is pretty good against both decks. you could add one of those in and put another in the sideboard.


    I have to seriously disagree with you on this. I've had nothing but good results from running Doran. Much better than from that overrated 4/4 that taps to put a +1/+1 counter on itself, anyway. I could give the long argument but I don't think either of us will change our opinions.

    You could also take a different approach with your deck by adding noble heiarch in place of goblin guide and run a couple of planeswalkers main/side to get a few % against zoo and jund.


    Yeah, I could try a Noble Hierarch based version. Dunno what effect that would have on my Storm and control matchups though.

    Other than this there is not a whole lot you can do to make it better other than running a version of zoo that is good against the mirror.


    Yeah. What does make a version of Zoo good against the mirror, anyway? (I haven't really been seeing the mirror on MTGO much these days, but Jund is popular.)
  • #4
    Quote from Ronfar
    Yeah, I know. It sucks, but I think it's still the best Wild Nacatl replacement I've got left. At least it makes it easy to know what to sideboard out!

    Kinda of a bad argument lol. If speed is really that important then steppe lynx is slightly faster, and its better than GG against the mirror because it is bigger than the other 1 drops when you attack.

    I have to seriously disagree with you on this. I've had nothing but good results from running Doran. Much better than from that overrated 4/4 that taps to put a +1/+1 counter on itself, anyway. I could give the long argument but I don't think either of us will change our opinions.

    It is a potential thing. Doran is always a 5/5 that might make your opponents creatures better. KotR will almost always be a 4/4, but it will often be a 6/6 maybe bigger. It also has the utility purpose of digging up a blue source or a utility land. KotR can easily break up ground stalls in the mirror by grabbing a kessig, wolf run. KotRs potential is just so much higher than dorans. Legendary is also kinda of a pain in the mirror too.


    Yeah, I could try a Noble Hierarch based version. Dunno what effect that would have on my Storm and control matchups though.

    It would have little effect on your storm matchup as long as you adjust your deck. Most of the noble hierach version actually have a few main deck spell pierce and other slower things like snapcaster or elspeth. Your control matchup will take a slight hit though, but your aggro match up will be improved.


    Yeah. What does make a version of Zoo good against the mirror, anyway? (I haven't really been seeing the mirror on MTGO much these days, but Jund is popular.)


    It comes down to bang for your buck and trying to go bigger. You can easily set up a ground stall in zoo mirrors, but certain cards like elspeth, gideon, giest of saint traft, KotR, ect can end these by putting you ahead. You essentially want to have the biggest/best creature/ect on the board.
    In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.


    Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
    Albert Einstein


    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    Thomas Jefferson

    League of Legends on MTGS
  • #5
    In the late-game knight of the reliquary will be bigger than goyf, something doran can't say as it will only trade. This is so essential in the mirror, against jund and against other mid-range decks. Being able to fetch a bomb land like kessig wolf-run is also a good thing as it can turn dead creatures like gg/ape/lion/hierarch into threats late-game. Playing bloodbraid elf or elspeth is usually the best way to beat jund. Geist is pretty good as well as long as you keep another creature for liliana. You should have more removal than they have creatures, so you should be able to keep the board pretty clear.
    Deathmark is a great sideboard card for the mirror. Kitchen finks is awesome against both zoo and jund as well, better than timely reinforcements I would say.
    Currently Playing:
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    :symw::symb: Obzedat :symu::symw: Geist of Saint Traft
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    :symg::symw::symu::symr::symb: Nostalgic (old-border) Sliver Queen
  • #6
    Quote from capitacom
    In the late-game knight of the reliquary will be bigger than goyf, something doran can't say as it will only trade. This is so essential in the mirror, against jund and against other mid-range decks. Being able to fetch a bomb land like kessig wolf-run is also a good thing as it can turn dead creatures like gg/ape/lion/hierarch into threats late-game. Playing bloodbraid elf or elspeth is usually the best way to beat jund. Geist is pretty good as well as long as you keep another creature for liliana. You should have more removal than they have creatures, so you should be able to keep the board pretty clear.
    Deathmark is a great sideboard card for the mirror. Kitchen finks is awesome against both zoo and jund as well, better than timely reinforcements I would say.


    In this deck goyf is better cuz it goes into the red zone. In control timely is better because it is more life and blockers. This makes sense giving that both decks have completely different identities. When making decisions you need to remember who is the beatdown. Zoo will be teh beat down in all matches except for sometimes affinity and sometimes burn. Zoo is the beat down against jund so whatever you do side in you don't want it to slow you down too much. They only creature that they have that is worth mentioning is goyf. The rest of their guys are small, so you really need to try to get out of the gates fast. Also side boarding something like Moorland Haunt in will allow you that little extra bit of threat density without compromising your speed or burn. Something like thrun is pretty good against jund as long as they don't have lily or you do have several creatures. Spectral precession is pretty good against them if you have snapcasters. Tons of options exisit if you think outside of the box.
    In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.


    Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
    Albert Einstein


    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    Thomas Jefferson

    League of Legends on MTGS
  • #7
    Burn and Affinity are exactly the matchups I planned on bringing Timely Reinforcements in against.

    Also, what do you think of Figure of Destiny in place of Goblin Guide?
  • #8
    I'm definitely agreeing on running Steppe Lynx and Noble Hierarch on the 1 drop slots. Along with working with Geist and KoTR as the 3 drop. I'm trying a singleton MD Thrun for the Jund matchup as a 3rd Geist-of sort with the singleton Kessig as my 22nd land. For the mirror I'm boarding 2 Finks, 2 Deathmark, 1 Ranger of Eos and 1 Burrenton, that I've found out being better than a 3rd Finks expecially in the Tribal Zoo mirror, where countering a Tribal Flames on your best mid-to-late menace lead them to spend another key removal to get rid of your creature.
    Also, I'd rather run Torpor Orb and Combust against UR Twin rather than Damping Matrix (even with Snapcaster in my MD). Torpor Orb can be brought in against Melira too, while Combust helps against the resurgent UW sword-control (a lil on the rise on mtgo) and against Soul Sister (a lot more affordable mu than Martyr Proc).
  • #9
    Quote from DraeK
    Also, I'd rather run Torpor Orb and Combust against UR Twin rather than Damping Matrix (even with Snapcaster in my MD). Torpor Orb can be brought in against Melira too, while Combust helps against the resurgent UW sword-control (a lil on the rise on mtgo) and against Soul Sister (a lot more affordable mu than Martyr Proc).


    I agree, Damping Matrix isn't ideal against Twin, but that's not the main reason I'm using it. It's mostly there for the Affinity matchup and because it's more versatile than Ancient Grudge. And Splinter Twin is a good enough matchup that I don't need any narrow hate; I can handle it just fine with Path to Exile and counterspells. And Torpor Orb is indeed narrower than Damping Matrix; it does shut off Kitchen Finks and plenty of other shenanigans in the Melira deck, but they can still go pretty crazy if they get Birthing Pod active. It also does absolutely nothing against Affinity. The more practical alternatives for that sideboard slot are Pithing Needle and Ancient Grudge.

    One last question: The two basic lands in the deck are mainly there as Blood Moon insurance, but I almost never see a Blood Moon. I was thinking of replacing the Forest with a different land - is that a bad idea?
  • #10
    Fetching basics can also help mitigate life loss against aggressive opponents without losing tempo, which can be crucial. Beyond that though, feel free to get greedy and run all shocks. I've considered it too, but legacy has taught me that basics are a good thing.

    While I don't expect it to be too strong against the mirror, one card I'm looking at to deal with the Jund menace right now is Arc Trail. It hits every creature in their deck as well as Liliana on 1 counter, and it can help you regain board presence in the "middle" part of the game against them. I haven't tested it yet, but if Jund remains popular I will probably end up running 2 or so in my board. Pyroclasm is another option, my biggest issue with it is that it doesn't hit Liliana. I'm picturing a lot of situations where we each have 1-2 dudes, and then they play Lily and (-2) her. We then can respond with an Arc Trail, taking down Lily and one of their blockers, and then still swinging in for damage without losing too much tempo. Being able to flash it back with Snapcaster makes it even more appealing, though I doubt that will come up often.

    Actually, I just remembered another decent option to accomplish this: Staggershock!! Not as much synergy with snappy, and it costs more, but it's instant and can pretty much hit everything in their deck twice except goyf. Probably a bit better against Zoo mirrors too, since you can take out a dude in combat and still dome your opponent next turn. What other options do we have for 2 for 1 burn spells? I think they might be the best way to stay aggressive and hold up tempo in the Mirror/Jund matches. Thoughts?
    Last edited by HomelandZecurity: 1/6/2012 3:08:41 PM
    Current decks:


    STANDARD
    RRR Mono-Red RRR
    RG R/G Monsters GR

    MODERN
    BGR Jund RGB
    WUR WUR DelverRWU
    RG R/G Zoo GR

    LEGACY
    RUG RUG Delver GUR
    BUG BUG Delver GUB
  • #11
    Wurmcoil beats Jund pretty well, yes it costs 6 mana bla bla bla, but it is a game breaker vs Jund. Not sure how good it is vs zoo though.

    MY DECKS:
    NAYA POD (Alana) RWG 9-2
  • #12
    Wurmcoil? I love the card, but we do not reliably get to 6 mana before dying to any deck that is as aggressive as us. Timely Reinforcements is way more practical.

    I personally have been testing out 1 Sword of War and Peace and 1 Sword of Feast and Famine for the pseudo-mirrors. Yes, still expensive to equip + Swing, but way more likely to get down and active in time to make a difference. I'm probably going to switch this to just running 2 SoWAP, as it's still relevant vs. Jund but helps some of our worse matchups better (Boros, Martyr). I may trade the Swords for a pair of Volcanic Fallouts as well at some point.

    I also was trying out Damping Matrix over Torpor Orb, as it does more in a wider variety of matchups. I did play 1 deck that was a Persist/Flicker deck, but I stomped him anyway, so it wasn't necessary. Being able to cast it against Affinity is very useful.
    Last edited by HomelandZecurity: 1/27/2012 12:14:49 PM
    Current decks:


    STANDARD
    RRR Mono-Red RRR
    RG R/G Monsters GR

    MODERN
    BGR Jund RGB
    WUR WUR DelverRWU
    RG R/G Zoo GR

    LEGACY
    RUG RUG Delver GUR
    BUG BUG Delver GUB
  • #13
    As a dedicated JUND player let me tell you what we are most afraid of:

    Elspeth 1.0
    Geist of Saint Traft
    To a lesser degree thrun (because we can legend rule yours with ours)

    Those are really the only 2 cards that I remove on spot if I see them with my discard, I have lost several games to a Geist while I sat with a hand full of removal against Zoo.

    BTW we laugh at wurmcoil since we run 3-4 grudge SB with flashback because of affinity Smile

    Also swords are really bad against all our spot removal and grudges, you have to think outside the box to kill us, try to keep the board empty and then burn us to death works sometimes.
    [Haves]/[Wants]:
  • #14
    Quote from Eutheran
    As a dedicated JUND player let me tell you what we are most afraid of:

    Elspeth 1.0
    Geist of Saint Traft
    To a lesser degree thrun (because we can legend rule yours with ours)

    Those are really the only 2 cards that I remove on spot if I see them with my discard, I have lost several games to a Geist while I sat with a hand full of removal against Zoo.

    BTW we laugh at wurmcoil since we run 3-4 grudge SB with flashback because of affinity Smile

    Also swords are really bad against all our spot removal and grudges, you have to think outside the box to kill us, try to keep the board empty and then burn us to death works sometimes.


    Those lines are based on a very weird assumption: are you really siding Ancient Grudge AGAINST ZOO? Just because you might be screwed by a couple artifacts?? REALLY???
  • #15
    ^^ He might not in game 2, but then in Game 3 they might. Being able to Cascade into the Grudge or Discard it to Liliana gives them an edge, since they only need to side in 1-2 to answer our 1-2 swords. Also, Maelstrom Pulse.

    I tested the Swords, and I did love them, but they are not quite good enough. To matter against Boros and other BURN decks, I'd need at least 2 SoWAP, but that isn't as good against Jund. Geist is an option, and I may eventually maindeck a couple, but it's not quite as solid overall as KOTR. Nor does he help shore up the Burn Matchups, in which I become the control deck and really need to keep their creatures off the board to survive, rather than applying more pressure. While it doesn't help the burn matchups, I think the card I've come to for now is Volcanic Fallout. It needs testing, but on paper it looks like it will be really strong against Jund (hits Liliana and everything else except for Thrun and Goyf). It also can blow out Boros as a quick 2-1, in response to landfall triggers or leveling up Figure of Destiny. And it comes in against a variety of other matchups as well, namely Merfolk, Affinity, Martyr Proc, and any other opposing Swarm deck. Against burn, I have Helixes and some counterspells I can side in, but I really wanted that slot to do work against Jund and other Aggro.

    Elspeth is certainly another option. She's expensive, but effective, and if Fallout doesn't do the trick I will try her out next. Ajani Vengeant is another option I've been considering, as he would act as Helixes #5-6, but can also tap down problematic dudes or slow down Jund's curve. If you can protect him long enough to get another Helix out of him, I think you pretty much win against Burn and Boros (and probably Jund too). He's probably not good enough, but it may actually be that paying 4 mana for another Helix is worth it in those matchups. I already do that a fair amount with Snapcaster anyway.
    Last edited by HomelandZecurity: 2/1/2012 12:16:24 PM
    Current decks:


    STANDARD
    RRR Mono-Red RRR
    RG R/G Monsters GR

    MODERN
    BGR Jund RGB
    WUR WUR DelverRWU
    RG R/G Zoo GR

    LEGACY
    RUG RUG Delver GUR
    BUG BUG Delver GUB
  • #16
    I side in Leyline against Jund. All you need is that early advantage to be able to apply pressure. Once you have a board position and can apply that pressure your threat density will overcome theirs. Then again I run straight Naya-Zoo with Knights(fetching KWR) and BBE instead of Goyf. Leyline also slows Burn down.
    Legacy Decks
    ~~~~~~~~~
    Too many to list efficiently. Find me online with the same SN if you want to play, or message me here to set up a time to play.

    Modern
    ~~~~~~~~~
    Whatever pile of 75 I throw together the night before without testing. Usually: :symb::symu::symg:
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