You know, INS, while looking at the specifics of this deck and considering the zoo argument from both sides, I figured you would have found reliable means to play the Engineered Explosives+Hatching Plans engine you were working on at the inception of modern. The new direction does fair better though Id probably prefer 1 more creeping tar pit in the manabase myself.
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Decks I have in my bag of tricks- Needless to say, someone who wants to play will probably have a deck UB/x Faeries UR Storm XURWB Affinity G Elves UW control
The problem I've found with this kind of deck is that 5 colors is within reach if you aren't playing specific cards like helix and esper charm and instead trade them out for less perfect mana dependent cards like desperate ravings or mystical teachings. If you are going to make if 5 colors you can't play just anything unless you are playing a bunch of cards in similar colors. And what happens when you get stuck on mana? You just lose. I am all for a 4 color deck, but 5 is just too much.
I completely agree with 5 colors being out of reach. In fact, I really wish I could just run 3 colors--I'm starting to see that Desperate Ravings and green recursion are the most important aspects of the deck's engine. The trouble with only using RUG colors is that you lose out on some of the solid removal from black or white.
Bant seems like an impossible matchup for this deck, I do not think I have won a single game against it, pre or post-SB.
Bant is a really easy deck to beat, if you decide you want to beat it. Obviously an undertuned control deck is going to have some problem match-ups. When you solidify the removal and shave the chaff from the counter suite, Bant becomes a cake-walk for any instant-based control deck. The only real trouble becomes answering turn 2 Knights on the draw, and that's something which 1-mana removal can shut down.
Geist of Saint Gets-Wrecked-By-Board-Sweepers? Sword of Nothing-on-the-table-to-equip-because-everything-is-dead-or-countered? I'm not afraid of those crappy threats.
You have three outs to kill Geist in the entire deck, and only two should a creature get equipped with Sword. I have found myself with extremely small windows to act, and not having the draws to do so, which is not to say I am getting unlucky either. Both of them can be accelerated out T2 on the play w/ a Hierarch/Birds. Even if you kill the Hierarch, you need to have a steady stream of counters, removal and the right amount of lands/correct colored lands to prevent the Sword from getting equipped to something else. With Geist, you will be dead or near dead before you are able to crack EE for it or cast CtM, so your only real out is Firespout. It is an inevitable loss though, especially with Sword. Until this deck starts chaining Gifts w/ Teaching to fill it's hand, it will lose the resource battle if either of these threats land, and they end the game quickly.
Can you guys say a bit more about why you think 5 colors is out of reach? I've been toying with 5c ideas a bit and think that it really isn't out of reach:
12x Fetch Lands
8x Shocks
5x Basic
This kind of mana base never really faces problems getting the colors it needs unless it gets hit by land destruction effects.
You have three outs to kill Geist in the entire deck, and only two should a creature get equipped with Sword. I have found myself with extremely small windows to act, and not having the draws to do so, which is not to say I am getting unlucky either. Both of them can be accelerated out T2 on the play w/ a Hierarch/Birds. Even if you kill the Hierarch, you need to have a steady stream of counters, removal and the right amount of lands/correct colored lands to prevent the Sword from getting equipped to something else. With Geist, you will be dead or near dead before you are able to crack EE for it or cast CtM, so your only real out is Firespout. It is an inevitable loss though, especially with Sword. Until this deck starts chaining Gifts w/ Teaching to fill it's hand, it will lose the resource battle if either of these threats land, and they end the game quickly.
I thought I made this very clear: when the removal suite is tuned, nobody is going to get away with Mana Dork--Geist/Knight-->Sword-->Equip. Somewhere along the line, a Bolt, a Firespout, a Volcanic Fallout, or something is going to disrupt the 1-drop-3-drop plan. The biggest issue is a turn 2 Knight while on the draw, but maybe the best solution is to simply run a bunch of Bolts and kill the mana dork. I don't know yet, but I do know that the Bant deck is ultra-linear and very disruptable. It's the exact same Bant deck that has been around for several years; all it got this time was some new equipment and another nifty 3-drop.
The whole point of the deck is to have a steady stream of answers and to hit your land drops. That's why the deck has a ton of answers and cards like Desperate Ravings to provide lots of consistency. It's all possible with the right math. No, I don't think I've hit that balance yet--but that's the point of having a thread like this and asking for help.
So the issue at hand is that the removal is too slow or incorrect for handling the Bant creatures. What do you suggest? What removal in RUG colors is going to shut down Bant effectively? If nothing is really possible for the deck's consistency, then maybe 4 colors is a necessity and I'll play black or white hard removal (Oust and Deathmark are both phenomenal at beating up Noble Hierarch decks).
Can you guys say a bit more about why you think 5 colors is out of reach? I've been toying with 5c ideas a bit and think that it really isn't out of reach:
12x Fetch Lands
8x Shocks
5x Basic
This kind of mana base never really faces problems getting the colors it needs unless it gets hit by land destruction effects.
Or, are you worried about the life loss?
It's a combination of issues. If you play an entirely Fetch-Shock-Basic manabase, you're going to be able to access 2 colors on turn 1, 4 colors on turn 2, and 5 colors by turn 3 at the earliest. You can do that very consistenly, but usually it means your life total starts at 11-13 life. That's fine for aggro decks, but awful for control decks facing against aggro. In addition, if your colors are indeed that demanding, you have to find a lot of nonbasics and rely heavily on one land providing a specific color for a number of turns. So you are not only vulnerable to Blood Moon, but you also are crippled by most any well-used LD spell/effect.
The lifeloss isn't always important and the LD/Blood Moon weakness isn't always important, but the issue is that a large portion of the field will be able to win games because of your bad mana, and that makes it very difficult to have success in a long tournament where you run the gauntlet. If you notice the way that Domain Zoo plays out in games, there are often times when it has trouble fighting through a Tectonic Edge or even a Ghost Quarter. A lot of Zoo decks are absolutely reamed by Blood Moon, if they don't prepare for it by fetching basics (and if their deck isn't designed to fetch basics and also cast its greedy spells). Often, though the mana may be undisrupted by the opponent, Zoo has issues with missing colors and having trouble casting some spells in hand, or having trouble casting 2 spells in one turn, or only casting Tribal Flames for 3-4 damage. Zoo doesn't give a damn about the lifeloss and loves running upwards of 12 fetches and a ton of shocks, and it still has these kinds of problems with its manabase--and they happen more often than you might think.
It's already difficult enough to put together a 3-color manabase that doesn't fold to Blood Moon and doesn't get a ton of cards in hand blanked by one or two LD effects. Pulling off 4-5 colors while trying to get away with 1-2 mana answers is even more strenuous. Good mana is very easy to take for granted, especially considering how much people tend to prioritize their spells over their lands when they tune their decks.
This reminds me: maybe I should think about playing Blood Moon myself, thinking about how much damage it can do in this metagame.
There's smother. Doom blade. Go for the throat and terminate aside path. Personally I prefer bolt dork to set them back otherwise bantam might have a counter ready for removal or end of drawstep cliques to attack your hand. There's also Inquisition and thought seize as preemptive measures. Also a flashed snap can kill an unequiped saint. I'm trying to eliminate a tertiary color from teachings. I'm not sold a third color is necessary plus more stable land base means less eating blood moon effects. Aside from baneslayer angel and experience charm I'm hard pressed to keep white. Even then teachings hasn't really been impressing me much lately anyway. Ugh.
I saw some interesting tech from the spellweaver helix thread that might fit somewhere in the sideboard if room could be made (which to be honest isn't likely). I was wondering what everyone thinks about zombie infestation as a surprise plan out of the board. In theory control decks will board out their sweepers for game 2. Under this assumption you could teachings->gifts with the pile snapcaster,dawn,loam,zombie infestation and then proceed to swarm them with dudes. It get's even sweeter if you can get it online without having to wait to gifts for the combo out of luck.
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Credit to DolZero for this awesome sig!
UB/x Faeries
UR Storm
XURWB Affinity
G Elves
UW control
Bant is a really easy deck to beat, if you decide you want to beat it. Obviously an undertuned control deck is going to have some problem match-ups. When you solidify the removal and shave the chaff from the counter suite, Bant becomes a cake-walk for any instant-based control deck. The only real trouble becomes answering turn 2 Knights on the draw, and that's something which 1-mana removal can shut down.
12x Fetch Lands
8x Shocks
5x Basic
This kind of mana base never really faces problems getting the colors it needs unless it gets hit by land destruction effects.
Or, are you worried about the life loss?
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
I thought I made this very clear: when the removal suite is tuned, nobody is going to get away with Mana Dork--Geist/Knight-->Sword-->Equip. Somewhere along the line, a Bolt, a Firespout, a Volcanic Fallout, or something is going to disrupt the 1-drop-3-drop plan. The biggest issue is a turn 2 Knight while on the draw, but maybe the best solution is to simply run a bunch of Bolts and kill the mana dork. I don't know yet, but I do know that the Bant deck is ultra-linear and very disruptable. It's the exact same Bant deck that has been around for several years; all it got this time was some new equipment and another nifty 3-drop.
The whole point of the deck is to have a steady stream of answers and to hit your land drops. That's why the deck has a ton of answers and cards like Desperate Ravings to provide lots of consistency. It's all possible with the right math. No, I don't think I've hit that balance yet--but that's the point of having a thread like this and asking for help.
So the issue at hand is that the removal is too slow or incorrect for handling the Bant creatures. What do you suggest? What removal in RUG colors is going to shut down Bant effectively? If nothing is really possible for the deck's consistency, then maybe 4 colors is a necessity and I'll play black or white hard removal (Oust and Deathmark are both phenomenal at beating up Noble Hierarch decks).
It's a combination of issues. If you play an entirely Fetch-Shock-Basic manabase, you're going to be able to access 2 colors on turn 1, 4 colors on turn 2, and 5 colors by turn 3 at the earliest. You can do that very consistenly, but usually it means your life total starts at 11-13 life. That's fine for aggro decks, but awful for control decks facing against aggro. In addition, if your colors are indeed that demanding, you have to find a lot of nonbasics and rely heavily on one land providing a specific color for a number of turns. So you are not only vulnerable to Blood Moon, but you also are crippled by most any well-used LD spell/effect.
The lifeloss isn't always important and the LD/Blood Moon weakness isn't always important, but the issue is that a large portion of the field will be able to win games because of your bad mana, and that makes it very difficult to have success in a long tournament where you run the gauntlet. If you notice the way that Domain Zoo plays out in games, there are often times when it has trouble fighting through a Tectonic Edge or even a Ghost Quarter. A lot of Zoo decks are absolutely reamed by Blood Moon, if they don't prepare for it by fetching basics (and if their deck isn't designed to fetch basics and also cast its greedy spells). Often, though the mana may be undisrupted by the opponent, Zoo has issues with missing colors and having trouble casting some spells in hand, or having trouble casting 2 spells in one turn, or only casting Tribal Flames for 3-4 damage. Zoo doesn't give a damn about the lifeloss and loves running upwards of 12 fetches and a ton of shocks, and it still has these kinds of problems with its manabase--and they happen more often than you might think.
It's already difficult enough to put together a 3-color manabase that doesn't fold to Blood Moon and doesn't get a ton of cards in hand blanked by one or two LD effects. Pulling off 4-5 colors while trying to get away with 1-2 mana answers is even more strenuous. Good mana is very easy to take for granted, especially considering how much people tend to prioritize their spells over their lands when they tune their decks.
This reminds me: maybe I should think about playing Blood Moon myself, thinking about how much damage it can do in this metagame.
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Dralnu, Lich Lord
1 Snapcaster Mage
Other Spells: 32
2 Mystical Teachings
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Nihil Spellbomb
4 Desperate Ravings
1 Oona's Grace
1 Life from the Loam
1 Jace's Ingenuity
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Spell Snare
4 Rune Snag
1 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Rewind
1 Cryptic Command
1 Repeal
2 Lightning Bolt
1 Terminate
1 Sudden Death
1 Firespout
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Damnation
1 Consume the Meek
1 Grim Harvest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Steam Vents
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Snow-Covered Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Graven Cairns
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Urza's Factory
1 Academy Ruins
2 Mindbreak Trap
1 Nature's Claim
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Pithing Needle
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Tectonic Edge
4 Death's Shadow
1 Darkblast
1 Volcanif Fallout
1 Seize the Soul