This idea spawned from some of the recent discussion in the RUG Gifts Control thread, but it clearly follows along a different path.
The first goal is to use Esper Charm and one other major draw spell as the functional engine for a permission deck. Esper Charm is definitely the most powerful instant draw in the format, so long as your manabase can handle it. Thirst for Knowledge is also a +1 at 3 mana, but it requires a spell base be built around it--which is much more daunting for a countermagic-based deck than simply reworking the mana. In addition, Esper Charm has that versatility which really helps a control deck solve problems in a broad metagame. Which other draw spell runs the deck? That remains to be determined.
The second goal is to play a hefty permission suite, including 4 Spell Snares (to stay in tough games on the draw) and a minimum of 13 counterspells. Counterspells are the best all-purpose answers in the game, and what could possibly be a better type of answer for a format with a deep card pool?
And the third goal is to play strong, versatile answers to resolved threats. Countermagic is great, but things are going to slip through through the cracks. Answers in this format should not only be good against creatures, but also against combo pieces and various disruptive permanents. Ideally, this means answers which do multiple things, namely:
And so on, and so forth. Bant Charm is not only an instant-speed creature removal spell, but it's good against graveyard-recursive threats like Vengevine, it's an answer for artifacts (Aether Vial, Shackles, etc.), and it can fight opposing counterspells and mana rituals.
Runed Halo is an answer that takes on multiple copies of the same card, meaning it's good against multiple Nacatl draws as well as protecting the user from Splinter Twin on a Deceiver Exarch or being able to shut down a lot of various things from Anathemancer to Raven's Crime to burn spells. Also, this card is extremely good in a deck with bounce spells like Cryptic Command and Repeal, as it's possible to bounce and reset a Runed Halo from one mode to another, after the named card is no longer very threatening.
With Bant Charm and Runed Halo at the forefront of this answer suite, Esper Charm at the forefront of the draw suite, and a demand for turn 1 Spell Snare on the draw, this creates a requirement for a carefully-constructed manabase.
I'll just copy-and-paste what I wrote in the RUG thread:
I did some work on the UWbg manabase. The goal was to be able to play with Esper Charm and Bant Charm consistently at 3 mana, while also being able to achieve turn 2 Runed Halo mana and turn 4 Cryptic Command mana. Here is what I came up with:
This totals to:
19 blue sources (excluding Pools and filtering for double blue)
17 white sources (excluding Pools and filtering for double white)
13 black sources (excluding Pools)
13 green sources (excluding Pools)
I think 26 lands is about the industry standard for a control deck, so I went with that number and focused on more specific details.
The goal is to have UWB and UWG threatened on turn 3, almost every game. There are a number of ways to do this:
-One blue source, one white source, and then Overgrown Tomb
-Fetch U/G and W/B and play Reflecting Pool
-Fetch U/B and W/G and play Reflecting Pool
-A few 3-fetch possibilities
-Vivid Creek, U Source, W Source
The only filter land you can use to cast both of these charms is Mystic Gate. If you use anything else, it will tap for only one charm and be useless for the other. (No matter how hard you try, Flooded Grove does not contribute to Esper Charm personally). So the only filter lands in the deck should be Mystic Gates. The question then becomes: how many are worth running? If the deck is using a number of double white cards like Runed Halo and Wrath effects, then I like maxing out Mystic Gate. With 4 filters in the deck, that's rarely (if ever) going to leave you high and dry with multiple filters and no 'anchor' lands to produce initial colored mana. And Mystic Gate is a very easy, painless untapped source that will take any blue or white source and make it the UW section of a charm. On top of this, Mystic Gate will convert most of your non-blue sources into blue sources for blue-intensive plays like Teferi and Cryptic Command.
I think 4 taplands is about the ceiling, and possibly too much (alongside all the shocks and fetches). I do think that Vivid lands are going to be key in casting a lot of difficult mana costs early on, but functionally a fetchland does the same job. It's really going to come down to:
-Are there enough basics to fetch lands without destroying yourself?
-Are there enough total shocks and basics to fetch out, so the deck doesn't often draw a dead fetch?
-Is Oona's Grace in the deck? (The above problem is somewhat solved with retrace cards.)
-What is the Loam situation? Do there need to be more fetchlands to boost its power level when it's naturally drawn?
Also, I don't really care which Vivid lands are in the deck, right now. I would assume Vivid Creek is the best, Vivid Meadow is the second best, and a variety is best for Gifts. It doesn't really matter at this stage of development; I would figure this out later.
Anyways, this manabase is supposed to be able to cast a lot of difficult mana costs within a 4 color variety, and it's also supposed to be able to cast Spell Snare on turn 1 and Rune Snag/Remand/Mana Leak on turn 2 while on the draw. I purposefully excluded any kind of utility lands and I used a very low basic count in order to maximize color potential (within reason).
If I were to run more basics in the deck, I would only add Plains and Islands. The problem with Swamps and Forests are that they don't contribute to the opposite color charm and they generally suck at casting a lot of greedy spells due to the only filter being Mystic Gate. This is assuming sticking with Bant Charm and Esper Charm as primary tools of the deck. To solve cards like Blood Moon, it makes sense to me that the deck should run blue bounce spells and/or white disenchant/Celestial Purge-type effects and plan to fetch out one or the other. This is, of course, assuming that Blood Moon doesn't simply get countered (or mana float-->Esper Charmed).
With that all in mind, here is an initial decklist:
1. A plan for red decks and Zoo that shuts down the burn endgame.
2. Additional countermagic or some other kind of disruption
3. A stronger solution for Blood Moon, if not in the maindeck.
4. Additional threats for attrition wars and for fighting opposing Extirpates.
5. Supplemental removal for matchups where it is demanded.
Note that Snapcaster Mage, Rune Snag, and other graveyard-dependent cards are absent from this list because of the plan to use Relics in the maindeck. The format and the metagame are definitely filled with graveyard-reliant cards because of their sheer power level, so it seems obvious to me to fight those cards with maindeck hate. What better way to do this than to play Relic of Progenitus? It serves multiple purposes by itself, which is exactly what I want out of my cards in a control deck for a varied format. Sure, running this card means cutting out some of the good flashback tools and what-not from the strategy, but it means having opportunities to wreck opponents who are leaning on those elements. Nothing puts you more in control of a game than shutting down your opponent's most powerful attributes in an efficient manner.
In any case, that's the groundwork for a potential monster draw-go control deck. Let's get some discussion going. I'm personally interested in:
1. What kind of finisher serves the deck the best?
2. Is there a better approach to the manabase, or did I simply miss something huge in the lands?
3. Is Ingenuity the wrong draw spell? What's better, and why?
Traditionally, Permission finishers focus on a couple things:
Self-protection, to keep you from wasting countermagic on protecting them and - as a consequence - freeing up some countermagic to control the game.
Built-in card advantage. This should be obvious.
Evasion and/or board presence.
Morphling is pretty much the ideal permission finisher, but is not legal in this format. In the colors, Meloku the Clouded Mirror might be worth considering, as are the threelegendarydragons from Kamigawa that lend themselves to control decks. White Sun's Zenith is also pretty sweet, and it is self-recurring.
1. What kind of finisher serves the deck the best?
I think you should be looking at equipment cards. Sword of Feast & Famine, etc. This keeps your mana curve really low (3 should be the highest point in your mana curve). This way, you can run bob for card advantage without experiencing too much life loss. Also, you can equip him or tiago with the sword for win. Yes, this is based on my assumption that you should be running bob and tiago in your deck.
2. Is there a better approach to the manabase, or did I simply miss something huge in the lands?
I run a 5 color control deck with the following mana base. See if it appeals to you.
I don't mean to be negative nancy here, but draw-go purely based off of counter-spells just isn't viable when the best decks in the format are playing creatures that cost largely 1 mana, or worse, they have half their hand on the table in the first turn (affinity).
Even if Force of Will were reprinted for Modern, permission control wouldn't be entirely viable by itself.
Now, draw-go is entirely viable, and it's how decks like Teachings operate, but you need more spot removal, and a lower reliance on counterspell effects.
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I tested a little and I don't really like Ingenuity. I feel Gifts or Teachings would just be better. I'd much rather find specific answers than take my chances with three random cards.
Also: This deck needs a catchier name. If only because this isn't even a permission archetype. It's more some odd combination of tempo and disruption.
I don't mean to be negative nancy here, but draw-go purely based off of counter-spells just isn't viable when the best decks in the format are playing creatures that cost largely 1 mana, or worse, they have half their hand on the table in the first turn (affinity).
Even if Force of Will were reprinted for Modern, permission control wouldn't be entirely viable by itself.
Now, draw-go is entirely viable, and it's how decks like Teachings operate, but you need more spot removal, and a lower reliance on counterspell effects.
This is why you almost have to be running Punishing Grove in a control deck these days. If you aren't, you need an ample amount of Wrath effects (often Academy + Explosives) to keep the board clean and a good amount of spot removal like Path and Bolt.
This is why you almost have to be running Punishing Grove in a control deck these days. If you aren't, you need an ample amount of Wrath effects (often Academy + Explosives) to keep the board clean and a good amount of spot removal like Path and Bolt.
The only problem with a reliance on grove is that it won't even start to kill anything that a Zoo deck regularly plays until turn 5-6, and that's only the small 1 drops. Grove is nice in addition to other removal, but relying on it to clear a board doesn't seem like the best idea to me.
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As far as a finisher is concerned, cbus is using White Sun's Zenith in his Teachings build. I'm very interested in this card. What do you think?
I'm very interested in it, as well. Clearly, the triple white is not an issue for a deck based around Mystic Gates and Reflecting Pools, so it's very castable at the 4-5+ mana slot. I think it belongs in the deck; the questions I have are:
How many of this type of card can we afford to fit into the deck?
How many do we want to run?
How much variety belongs in the answer suite?
Is it worth running in a field with a decent number of instant sweepers a la Engineered Explosives, Volcanic Fallout, Echoing Truth, etc?
Traditionally, Permission finishers focus on a couple things:
Self-protection, to keep you from wasting countermagic on protecting them and - as a consequence - freeing up some countermagic to control the game.
Built-in card advantage. This should be obvious.
Evasion and/or board presence.
Morphling is pretty much the ideal permission finisher, but is not legal in this format. In the colors, Meloku the Clouded Mirror might be worth considering, as are the threelegendarydragons from Kamigawa that lend themselves to control decks. White Sun's Zenith is also pretty sweet, and it is self-recurring.
Well, there is a Morphling in this format. It's called Windreaver. It does basically everything that Morphling can do:
1. Dodge removal. It does this in a different way, but that's fine. It has the ability to dodge Wraths, in exchange for the tempo loss of being bounced in response to removal.
2. It flies; it's evasive and good at shutting down other flying cards like Vendilion Clique.
3. It can attack while it's defending for a mere one mana activation.
4. It has that flexible power and toughness--actually more so than Morphling, given certain tempo differences.
A lot of people have forgotten about this card. That doesn't mean it's bad.
1. What kind of finisher serves the deck the best?
I think you should be looking at equipment cards. Sword of Feast & Famine, etc. This keeps your mana curve really low (3 should be the highest point in your mana curve). This way, you can run bob for card advantage without experiencing too much life loss. Also, you can equip him or tiago with the sword for win. Yes, this is based on my assumption that you should be running bob and tiago in your deck.
You're talking about completely throwing this idea out the window and instead playing a fish deck with equipment. I don't think playing Bobs and Tiagos is a bad strategy, but it's a drastically different one from hard permission control. If you want to help work on a permission strategy, let's try to keep this on-topic. If you don't think it's viable, there's the door. Playing Swords is not going to work for a deck with a very low creature count, which is how this deck will work--even with 2-3 finishers and a set of Tiagos.
2. Is there a better approach to the manabase, or did I simply miss something huge in the lands?
I run a 5 color control deck with the following mana base. See if it appeals to you.
Dark Confidant isn't going to work for a deck that's playing 0 other early-game creatures. I don't care about how good that card is when it sticks; it's just not going to stick often to be strong enough against good decks piloted by good players. It's a sideboard card, in this context.
Anything that's not instant-speed needs to be under 3 mana in order to be playable in the maindeck as a core aspect of a permission deck's engine. This is because the whole point is to leave open in nearly every turn, threatening to produce card advantage on the end step if the opponent doesn't take a strong action on his turn. I don't think you understand what a permission deck does or how it works--this isn't meant to be an insult, but I think you're unable to see the strategy for itself. Rather, you seem to be shoehorning other ideas into it.
I don't mean to be negative nancy here, but draw-go purely based off of counter-spells just isn't viable when the best decks in the format are playing creatures that cost largely 1 mana, or worse, they have half their hand on the table in the first turn (affinity).
It's not like there are no removal spells in this deck. All you have to do is board in some Ousts and/or board sweepers, and those nut draws get wrecked as you punish the over-extensions.
People have been beating Affinity and Zoo in Extended with control decks for years. Why would it be any different now?
Even if Force of Will were reprinted for Modern, permission control wouldn't be entirely viable by itself.
The whole point of Modern is to be a format that works without needing a Force of Will-type card in order to police the format. If Permission cannot work without it, there is no point to playing this format.
And, to be honest, Force of Will is quite often a horrible control tool. Great, you countered a spell for no mana--but now you're out 2 cards. Every time you FoW something, you're undoing the work from an Esper Charm. Unless you're getting a 2-for-2 or 3-for-2 out of it by countering a key bomb against a combo deck, FoW is generally just good at putting you behind. For those who play a lot with the card, they understand that it definitely has its pitfalls.
And it's not like Mindbreak Trap and 1-mana countermagic/discard doesn't already exist in this format, to shut down dangerous turn 2-ish plays when they happen. This is the whole point of running 4 Spell Snares in the maindeck and boarding cheap answers in the board for specific issues in the early game.
Now, draw-go is entirely viable, and it's how decks like Teachings operate, but you need more spot removal, and a lower reliance on counterspell effects.
There is more spot removal in this deck that there typically is in a Teachings deck. Teachings has been known for running 4 Paths, a Doom Blade and/or Smother (etc) or two, and a Repeal. The rest is solved by Cryptic bounces and flash creatures blocking. Yes, Snapcaster increases the amount of removal in the newer builds of those decks, but it comes at a cost--Cryptics and other permanent-solvers are ultimately traded out for Snapcasters.
If you're so scared of aggro that you believe permission cannot defeat it in this format, don't contribute to the discussion.
We can't afford to be thinking about 'cute' combinations like this. Finishers have to stand alone and be strong on their own, like Rainbow Efreet and Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
I tested a little and I don't really like Ingenuity. I feel Gifts or Teachings would just be better. I'd much rather find specific answers than take my chances with three random cards.
Ok, this is a legitimate concern. The whole point of Ingenuity is that it's a very powerful draw spell; the deck can just chain-draw without need for tutors and graveyard dependence. But if it's too slow for the format, what is better? Gifts is just not worth running because it just destroys your answer suite if the deck is built around Gifts. Teachings is great, but graveyard-dependent. What about compromising and playing a mix of Teachings and something like Ingenuity--tutoring and hard draw? That would probably better satisfy the mana curve situation.
Also: This deck needs a catchier name. If only because this isn't even a permission archetype. It's more some odd combination of tempo and disruption.
I don't get it. This isn't a permission deck? Then what is it? 14 counterspells, a lot of instant-speed draw, all instant-speed or mana-efficient strong removal, and a small finisher suite. I just don't understand how you can perceive it as anything but permission.
This is why you almost have to be running Punishing Grove in a control deck these days. If you aren't, you need an ample amount of Wrath effects (often Academy + Explosives) to keep the board clean and a good amount of spot removal like Path and Bolt.
Punishing Grove is terrible against Zoo. Their 1-drops have 3-toughness, so you have to spend 4 mana on 2 Punishing Fires in order to simply kill a Kird Ape (their back-up 1-drop). If you have only one Fire, that means 5 mana to Fire, recur, and Fire again. This is only going to be worse against Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.
If you're in a position where you can get away with spending 5 mana to kill a Wild Nacatl, you're probably better off just casting an Ingenuity and drawing naturally into a spot removal spell. But, these days, people just want to take shortcuts and do everything the lazy way, so it's assumed that chaining draw spells isn't going to find you what you need--even though this is a fundamental concept of card advantage upon which this game is built.
I think Gifts is the best card to use. I really do. Because we're running green, which gives opportunity for a little Shuhei tech in All Suns' Dawn. ASD plus Snapcaster makes Gifts pretty easy to support. Note that you can get more than one of any multicolored card by naming each one as a different color. So you can retrieve three Esper Charms by naming one for each of it's three colors. Shuhei ran one, but I'd like to try two for the possibility of chaining them together.
Speaking of Shuhei tech, Rude Awakening might also be a very good card to consider. Not only for the possibility of an alpha strike, but also untapping your lands for whatever reason.
In Teachings, I run one Zenith because it's tutorable. But with no way to find it here, I'd run two. Getting rid of the tokens is no big deal because the spell shuffles itself back into your library. So you can just do it again. And again. And again. Until your opponent dies.
However, I'd like to run Windreaver as well. This creature looks very flexible, extremely potent in combat, and I much prefer to have variance in my finishers.
And it didn't feel like permission to me because I felt like I was more being disruptive. With cards like Runed Halo, it feels more proactive than reactive. But that's just how I felt.
I feel like a couple Snapcasters would still have a place here, maindeck Relic or not. It seems like a natural fit, and can get you card draw with Esper Charm at instant speed.
Why not:
-4 Jace's Ingenuity
+2 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Windreaver in the finisher slot.
--
I haven't tested the list yet but I think that relying on Bant Charm to deal with creatures is going to really lose a lot of games to Zoo. If you have to rely on sideboard for these matchups then you're basically tossing game one, which means the deck isn't working in the format. I like where your ideas are going though and will definitely start checking into the thread.
I think that while Gifts would work, it's going to result in a totally different deck (Bant Gifts, likely) and the slots will quickly be eaten up for Gifts piles, resulting in the permission idea going out the window.
I think Gifts is the best card to use. I really do. Because we're running green, which gives opportunity for a little Shuhei tech in All Suns' Dawn. ASD plus Snapcaster makes Gifts pretty easy to support. Note that you can get more than one of any multicolored card by naming each one as a different color. So you can retrieve three Esper Charms by naming one for each of it's three colors. Shuhei ran one, but I'd like to try two for the possibility of chaining them together.
The problem with playing Gifts Ungiven is that the card completely warps a deck's design around itself. In order to make it work, you have to be able to feed yourself situationally good cards with piles. I would rather just play raw draw spells, to be honest. They don't screw up the answer suite and they're better for consistently drawing a balance of what you need.
Speaking of Shuhei tech, Rude Awakening might also be a very good card to consider. Not only for the possibility of an alpha strike, but also untapping your lands for whatever reason.
It's just not reliable; you have to 1-shot your opponent with this card in order for it to end the game. That's just not going to happen in a deck without an aggro plan. I think we can do better. The way I see it is this: White Sun and Windreaver are good finishers, but can we do better? What about Cloudthresher? Is there a really good bomb that we're missing, such that Teachings-->Teferi-->Teachings-->Bomb is ideal?
In Teachings, I run one Zenith because it's tutorable. But with no way to find it here, I'd run two. Getting rid of the tokens is no big deal because the spell shuffles itself back into your library. So you can just do it again. And again. And again. Until your opponent dies.
I agree that it's not a big deal for the tokens to die, as far as inevitability is concerned. I'm just wondering if the sweepers in this format are going to make it a weaker blocking tool for when that's necessary, among other situations where the finisher has to be used early to solve problems (like running a Teferi out there to 2-for-1 trade with a creature and removal).
However, I'd like to run Windreaver as well. This creature looks very flexible, extremely potent in combat, and I much prefer to have variance in my finishers.
I'm really starting to like the idea of just a pair of Teachings for inevitability. The first one either gets a necessary answer, or it gets a draw spell. Then you flash it back for the second Teachings, which can either get you Teferi-->Windreaver or White Sun's Zenith. This gives a combination of consistency and positive variance to the deck.
And it didn't feel like permission to me because I felt like I was more being disruptive. With cards like Runed Halo, it feels more proactive than reactive. But that's just how I felt.
Fair enough. That's part of the boon of playing Runed Halo; it's cheap enough to be considered viable spot removal, but it's also a lot like Meddling Mage in the way that it affects the table.
But, still, catchy names are the best.
I think a good name will show up after the deck is a bit more defined. Definitely looking forward to it.
I feel like a couple Snapcasters would still have a place here, maindeck Relic or not. It seems like a natural fit, and can get you card draw with Esper Charm at instant speed.
Why not:
-4 Jace's Ingenuity
+2 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Windreaver in the finisher slot.
I can get behind a small number of Snapcasters, although it's dangerous to consider it fully part of the draw suite. There still needs to be that critical mass of draw spells, otherwise the Snapcaster won't actually have an Esper Charm (etc.) to target and provide that raw CA which fuels a draw-go deck. Maybe the solution is to simply play a couple Snapcasters and a couple Teachings.
I haven't tested the list yet but I think that relying on Bant Charm to deal with creatures is going to really lose a lot of games to Zoo. If you have to rely on sideboard for these matchups then you're basically tossing game one, which means the deck isn't working in the format.
Maybe 3 Bant Charm is too many. I don't think the removal suite is a huge deal, to be honest--I would rather not worry about game 1s against Zoo, and just board into a deck that has an 80%+ win rate for games 2 and 3 with blowout cards like Oust and Death's Shadow. I'm not opposed to maindecking a number of Paths, but I'd like to see how the aggro match-ups work before overloading on removal in the main.
I like where your ideas are going though and will definitely start checking into the thread.
Cool. I always appreciate your input, Madding. I'll also have this built in a week or 2 on MTGO, so perhaps we can get some games in.
I think that while Gifts would work, it's going to result in a totally different deck (Bant Gifts, likely) and the slots will quickly be eaten up for Gifts piles, resulting in the permission idea going out the window.
Yeah, that's almost always what always happens when Gifts is involved.
Ingenuity is definitely not bad, by any means. I just wonder if I'm forgetting a better draw spell in this format.
I'm really starting to like the idea of just a pair of Teachings for inevitability. The first one either gets a necessary answer, or it gets a draw spell. Then you flash it back for the second Teachings, which can either get you Teferi-->Windreaver or White Sun's Zenith. This gives a combination of consistency and positive variance to the deck.
All right. I like it. I'd rather just run Windreaver, though. I dislike Teferi. I don't want the hassle of having to protect it.
As far as sweepers go, they aren't a huge problem because you're able to Zenith on your opponent's end step. So you can go ahead and attack and have mana untapped for counterspells (so you can counter said sweeper). The only card I would worry about is Consume the Meek.
I actually was genuinely asking the question: Why bring back the discussion? Are you interested in this kind of idea? That's awesome! The discussion basically went out the window over a month ago, and I didn't know if you realized that or if you accidentally posted in this thread. I went back to working on this deck about a week ago, and wouldn't mind bouncing some ideas around, again.
FYI, I am playing a pair of Mystical Teachings and 2-3 Gifts Ungiven in the deck, as well as Loam/Oona's Grace. Also, I found an upgraded Urza's Factory for the manabase: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree. If you are interested, I can post the full list of the work in progress.
Well I feel like if zoo can be 4 colors then a control deck can definitely be 4 colors. I just haven't figured out what 4 colors to use. I really like bant charm, but I also think that esper charm is too good to pass up, but honestly I think the biggest mistake is to not play lighting helix. Card is just too broken.
I was using UBGW and Bant Charm/Esper Charm as well as Path and a bunch of other good white removal spells, but the deck just downright needed specific utility lands (Ghost Quarter/Tech Edge, Academy Ruins, something along the lines of Urza's Factory). After realizing that those lands were more important than the somewhat-greedy Charms, I decided to move on to a much more castable draw engine.
Just playing Teachings and Gifts (in any number/configuration) isn't going to help solve the "I need a 3rd or 4th land drop" issue, so I decided to try some supplemental draw power. Think Twice was good, though a little underwhelming. After thinking about the other draw in the format, I realized how perfect Ravings would be. It's already fantastic in combo decks (Storm, hybrid, and otherwise), and it has proven to be a force in Standard control decks. I tried it out, and after about 2 games I was already convinced that it's the right draw spell for the deck. It didn't take very long to understand how insanely powerful this card is, for a control deck with multiple graveyard engines and a generally consistent spell-base. There is such an element of 'trust' that Ravings is going to fix your current problems, as it digs so efficiently for what you don't already have. I've played a few dozen games with the deck by this point, and 4 Ravings is definitely the backbone draw engine for which I have been searching, in this format.
The trouble is that, while 4 colors is very manageable, 5 colors is a bit out of reach. If you're playing a Vivid/Pool manabase or you're using some other tapland configuration, it's not that big of a deal. But if you're trying to cast turn 1 spells to avoid dying to aggro and you're trying to fetch basics to fight Blood Moon, good luck with those taplands.... While I really like the tools white has to offer, it's pretty clear that the core engine demands red and blue for Ravings, black for Teachings, and green for Loam. Sure, Bant Charm and Lightning Helix are nice, but they're really hard to cast. The white card I'm going to miss the most is Vitu-Ghazi, but it's just not worth playing a couple white shocklands and losing to Blood Moon/aggression.
This is definitely a work-in-progress, as I have not labored enough on the deck to give its non-draw spells the consistency I would like. Things like Blood Moon and grave hate are glaring weaknesses, just like how the removal suite is all over the place. That's fine though; those things take some time to work out. I'm definitely playing this deck, whenever the California PTQs are finally announced.
It recycles gifts targets, it fights opposing graveyard strategies, it's instant speed, and it has flashback. This card will really start showing up in a few months, when people figure it out.
Trouble is, Grixis Charm just doesn't seem good enough.
"Return target permanent to its owner's hand"? I'd rather cantrip with Cryptic Command or do it on the cheap with Boomerang.
"Target creature gets -4/-4 until end of turn"? I'd rather play Dismember.
Unlike with Bant Charm, I'm really not certain how good the two options bundled together are. I'd imagine this card shines much more against aggro and blows much more against combo, unlike Bant Charm's usability in all match-ups.
Unless you've hit the late game, don't get me started on Grixis Charm's third option.
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The first goal is to use Esper Charm and one other major draw spell as the functional engine for a permission deck. Esper Charm is definitely the most powerful instant draw in the format, so long as your manabase can handle it. Thirst for Knowledge is also a +1 at 3 mana, but it requires a spell base be built around it--which is much more daunting for a countermagic-based deck than simply reworking the mana. In addition, Esper Charm has that versatility which really helps a control deck solve problems in a broad metagame. Which other draw spell runs the deck? That remains to be determined.
The second goal is to play a hefty permission suite, including 4 Spell Snares (to stay in tough games on the draw) and a minimum of 13 counterspells. Counterspells are the best all-purpose answers in the game, and what could possibly be a better type of answer for a format with a deep card pool?
And the third goal is to play strong, versatile answers to resolved threats. Countermagic is great, but things are going to slip through through the cracks. Answers in this format should not only be good against creatures, but also against combo pieces and various disruptive permanents. Ideally, this means answers which do multiple things, namely:
And so on, and so forth. Bant Charm is not only an instant-speed creature removal spell, but it's good against graveyard-recursive threats like Vengevine, it's an answer for artifacts (Aether Vial, Shackles, etc.), and it can fight opposing counterspells and mana rituals.
Runed Halo is an answer that takes on multiple copies of the same card, meaning it's good against multiple Nacatl draws as well as protecting the user from Splinter Twin on a Deceiver Exarch or being able to shut down a lot of various things from Anathemancer to Raven's Crime to burn spells. Also, this card is extremely good in a deck with bounce spells like Cryptic Command and Repeal, as it's possible to bounce and reset a Runed Halo from one mode to another, after the named card is no longer very threatening.
With Bant Charm and Runed Halo at the forefront of this answer suite, Esper Charm at the forefront of the draw suite, and a demand for turn 1 Spell Snare on the draw, this creates a requirement for a carefully-constructed manabase.
I'll just copy-and-paste what I wrote in the RUG thread:
With that all in mind, here is an initial decklist:
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Marsh Flats
4 Vivid Creek
2 Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Breeding Pool
1 Watery Grave
1 Godless Shrine
1 Temple Garden
1 Overgrown Tomb
4 Reflecting Pool
3 Mana Leak
2 Remand
2 Voidslime
3 Cryptic Command
3 Runed Halo
3 Bant Charm
2 Repeal
2 Relic of Progenitus
4 Jace's Ingenuity
2 (Finisher)
This is assuming a sideboard with:
1. A plan for red decks and Zoo that shuts down the burn endgame.
2. Additional countermagic or some other kind of disruption
3. A stronger solution for Blood Moon, if not in the maindeck.
4. Additional threats for attrition wars and for fighting opposing Extirpates.
5. Supplemental removal for matchups where it is demanded.
Note that Snapcaster Mage, Rune Snag, and other graveyard-dependent cards are absent from this list because of the plan to use Relics in the maindeck. The format and the metagame are definitely filled with graveyard-reliant cards because of their sheer power level, so it seems obvious to me to fight those cards with maindeck hate. What better way to do this than to play Relic of Progenitus? It serves multiple purposes by itself, which is exactly what I want out of my cards in a control deck for a varied format. Sure, running this card means cutting out some of the good flashback tools and what-not from the strategy, but it means having opportunities to wreck opponents who are leaning on those elements. Nothing puts you more in control of a game than shutting down your opponent's most powerful attributes in an efficient manner.
In any case, that's the groundwork for a potential monster draw-go control deck. Let's get some discussion going. I'm personally interested in:
1. What kind of finisher serves the deck the best?
2. Is there a better approach to the manabase, or did I simply miss something huge in the lands?
3. Is Ingenuity the wrong draw spell? What's better, and why?
Morphling is pretty much the ideal permission finisher, but is not legal in this format. In the colors, Meloku the Clouded Mirror might be worth considering, as are the three legendary dragons from Kamigawa that lend themselves to control decks. White Sun's Zenith is also pretty sweet, and it is self-recurring.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
I think you should be looking at equipment cards. Sword of Feast & Famine, etc. This keeps your mana curve really low (3 should be the highest point in your mana curve). This way, you can run bob for card advantage without experiencing too much life loss. Also, you can equip him or tiago with the sword for win. Yes, this is based on my assumption that you should be running bob and tiago in your deck.
2. Is there a better approach to the manabase, or did I simply miss something huge in the lands?
I run a 5 color control deck with the following mana base. See if it appeals to you.
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Reflecting Pool
2 Scalding Tarn
1 Steam Vents
1 Sacred Foundry
1 Island
1 Mountain
3. Is Ingenuity the wrong draw spell? What's better, and why?
Yes, Ingenuity is certainly the wrong draw spell. 5 mana is a ridiculous cost to pay. The best card draw in this format is, I think:
1 Phyrexian Arena
1 Jace Beleren
1 Esper Charm
BRG Loam Control (Assault - Loam) BRG
W Mono White Control (Martyr - Proc) W
Even if Force of Will were reprinted for Modern, permission control wouldn't be entirely viable by itself.
Now, draw-go is entirely viable, and it's how decks like Teachings operate, but you need more spot removal, and a lower reliance on counterspell effects.
I tested a little and I don't really like Ingenuity. I feel Gifts or Teachings would just be better. I'd much rather find specific answers than take my chances with three random cards.
Also: This deck needs a catchier name. If only because this isn't even a permission archetype. It's more some odd combination of tempo and disruption.
This is why you almost have to be running Punishing Grove in a control deck these days. If you aren't, you need an ample amount of Wrath effects (often Academy + Explosives) to keep the board clean and a good amount of spot removal like Path and Bolt.
Legacy: UB(R/G) Storm UB(R/G)
Vintage: UBG Gush Storm UBG
The only problem with a reliance on grove is that it won't even start to kill anything that a Zoo deck regularly plays until turn 5-6, and that's only the small 1 drops. Grove is nice in addition to other removal, but relying on it to clear a board doesn't seem like the best idea to me.
I'm very interested in it, as well. Clearly, the triple white is not an issue for a deck based around Mystic Gates and Reflecting Pools, so it's very castable at the 4-5+ mana slot. I think it belongs in the deck; the questions I have are:
How many of this type of card can we afford to fit into the deck?
How many do we want to run?
How much variety belongs in the answer suite?
Is it worth running in a field with a decent number of instant sweepers a la Engineered Explosives, Volcanic Fallout, Echoing Truth, etc?
Well, there is a Morphling in this format. It's called Windreaver. It does basically everything that Morphling can do:
1. Dodge removal. It does this in a different way, but that's fine. It has the ability to dodge Wraths, in exchange for the tempo loss of being bounced in response to removal.
2. It flies; it's evasive and good at shutting down other flying cards like Vendilion Clique.
3. It can attack while it's defending for a mere one mana activation.
4. It has that flexible power and toughness--actually more so than Morphling, given certain tempo differences.
A lot of people have forgotten about this card. That doesn't mean it's bad.
You're talking about completely throwing this idea out the window and instead playing a fish deck with equipment. I don't think playing Bobs and Tiagos is a bad strategy, but it's a drastically different one from hard permission control. If you want to help work on a permission strategy, let's try to keep this on-topic. If you don't think it's viable, there's the door. Playing Swords is not going to work for a deck with a very low creature count, which is how this deck will work--even with 2-3 finishers and a set of Tiagos.
Are you serious? There's no way that Gemstone Mine and City of Brass are good for a control deck.
Dark Confidant isn't going to work for a deck that's playing 0 other early-game creatures. I don't care about how good that card is when it sticks; it's just not going to stick often to be strong enough against good decks piloted by good players. It's a sideboard card, in this context.
Anything that's not instant-speed needs to be under 3 mana in order to be playable in the maindeck as a core aspect of a permission deck's engine. This is because the whole point is to leave open in nearly every turn, threatening to produce card advantage on the end step if the opponent doesn't take a strong action on his turn. I don't think you understand what a permission deck does or how it works--this isn't meant to be an insult, but I think you're unable to see the strategy for itself. Rather, you seem to be shoehorning other ideas into it.
It's not like there are no removal spells in this deck. All you have to do is board in some Ousts and/or board sweepers, and those nut draws get wrecked as you punish the over-extensions.
People have been beating Affinity and Zoo in Extended with control decks for years. Why would it be any different now?
The whole point of Modern is to be a format that works without needing a Force of Will-type card in order to police the format. If Permission cannot work without it, there is no point to playing this format.
And, to be honest, Force of Will is quite often a horrible control tool. Great, you countered a spell for no mana--but now you're out 2 cards. Every time you FoW something, you're undoing the work from an Esper Charm. Unless you're getting a 2-for-2 or 3-for-2 out of it by countering a key bomb against a combo deck, FoW is generally just good at putting you behind. For those who play a lot with the card, they understand that it definitely has its pitfalls.
And it's not like Mindbreak Trap and 1-mana countermagic/discard doesn't already exist in this format, to shut down dangerous turn 2-ish plays when they happen. This is the whole point of running 4 Spell Snares in the maindeck and boarding cheap answers in the board for specific issues in the early game.
There is more spot removal in this deck that there typically is in a Teachings deck. Teachings has been known for running 4 Paths, a Doom Blade and/or Smother (etc) or two, and a Repeal. The rest is solved by Cryptic bounces and flash creatures blocking. Yes, Snapcaster increases the amount of removal in the newer builds of those decks, but it comes at a cost--Cryptics and other permanent-solvers are ultimately traded out for Snapcasters.
If you're so scared of aggro that you believe permission cannot defeat it in this format, don't contribute to the discussion.
We can't afford to be thinking about 'cute' combinations like this. Finishers have to stand alone and be strong on their own, like Rainbow Efreet and Sphinx of Jwar Isle.
Ok, this is a legitimate concern. The whole point of Ingenuity is that it's a very powerful draw spell; the deck can just chain-draw without need for tutors and graveyard dependence. But if it's too slow for the format, what is better? Gifts is just not worth running because it just destroys your answer suite if the deck is built around Gifts. Teachings is great, but graveyard-dependent. What about compromising and playing a mix of Teachings and something like Ingenuity--tutoring and hard draw? That would probably better satisfy the mana curve situation.
I don't get it. This isn't a permission deck? Then what is it? 14 counterspells, a lot of instant-speed draw, all instant-speed or mana-efficient strong removal, and a small finisher suite. I just don't understand how you can perceive it as anything but permission.
Punishing Grove is terrible against Zoo. Their 1-drops have 3-toughness, so you have to spend 4 mana on 2 Punishing Fires in order to simply kill a Kird Ape (their back-up 1-drop). If you have only one Fire, that means 5 mana to Fire, recur, and Fire again. This is only going to be worse against Tarmogoyf and Knight of the Reliquary.
If you're in a position where you can get away with spending 5 mana to kill a Wild Nacatl, you're probably better off just casting an Ingenuity and drawing naturally into a spot removal spell. But, these days, people just want to take shortcuts and do everything the lazy way, so it's assumed that chaining draw spells isn't going to find you what you need--even though this is a fundamental concept of card advantage upon which this game is built.
Speaking of Shuhei tech, Rude Awakening might also be a very good card to consider. Not only for the possibility of an alpha strike, but also untapping your lands for whatever reason.
In Teachings, I run one Zenith because it's tutorable. But with no way to find it here, I'd run two. Getting rid of the tokens is no big deal because the spell shuffles itself back into your library. So you can just do it again. And again. And again. Until your opponent dies.
However, I'd like to run Windreaver as well. This creature looks very flexible, extremely potent in combat, and I much prefer to have variance in my finishers.
And it didn't feel like permission to me because I felt like I was more being disruptive. With cards like Runed Halo, it feels more proactive than reactive. But that's just how I felt.
But, still, catchy names are the best.
Why not:
-4 Jace's Ingenuity
+2 Snapcaster Mage
+2 Path to Exile
+2 Windreaver in the finisher slot.
--
I haven't tested the list yet but I think that relying on Bant Charm to deal with creatures is going to really lose a lot of games to Zoo. If you have to rely on sideboard for these matchups then you're basically tossing game one, which means the deck isn't working in the format. I like where your ideas are going though and will definitely start checking into the thread.
I think that while Gifts would work, it's going to result in a totally different deck (Bant Gifts, likely) and the slots will quickly be eaten up for Gifts piles, resulting in the permission idea going out the window.
The problem with playing Gifts Ungiven is that the card completely warps a deck's design around itself. In order to make it work, you have to be able to feed yourself situationally good cards with piles. I would rather just play raw draw spells, to be honest. They don't screw up the answer suite and they're better for consistently drawing a balance of what you need.
It's just not reliable; you have to 1-shot your opponent with this card in order for it to end the game. That's just not going to happen in a deck without an aggro plan. I think we can do better. The way I see it is this: White Sun and Windreaver are good finishers, but can we do better? What about Cloudthresher? Is there a really good bomb that we're missing, such that Teachings-->Teferi-->Teachings-->Bomb is ideal?
I agree that it's not a big deal for the tokens to die, as far as inevitability is concerned. I'm just wondering if the sweepers in this format are going to make it a weaker blocking tool for when that's necessary, among other situations where the finisher has to be used early to solve problems (like running a Teferi out there to 2-for-1 trade with a creature and removal).
I'm really starting to like the idea of just a pair of Teachings for inevitability. The first one either gets a necessary answer, or it gets a draw spell. Then you flash it back for the second Teachings, which can either get you Teferi-->Windreaver or White Sun's Zenith. This gives a combination of consistency and positive variance to the deck.
Fair enough. That's part of the boon of playing Runed Halo; it's cheap enough to be considered viable spot removal, but it's also a lot like Meddling Mage in the way that it affects the table.
I think a good name will show up after the deck is a bit more defined. Definitely looking forward to it.
I can get behind a small number of Snapcasters, although it's dangerous to consider it fully part of the draw suite. There still needs to be that critical mass of draw spells, otherwise the Snapcaster won't actually have an Esper Charm (etc.) to target and provide that raw CA which fuels a draw-go deck. Maybe the solution is to simply play a couple Snapcasters and a couple Teachings.
Maybe 3 Bant Charm is too many. I don't think the removal suite is a huge deal, to be honest--I would rather not worry about game 1s against Zoo, and just board into a deck that has an 80%+ win rate for games 2 and 3 with blowout cards like Oust and Death's Shadow. I'm not opposed to maindecking a number of Paths, but I'd like to see how the aggro match-ups work before overloading on removal in the main.
Cool. I always appreciate your input, Madding. I'll also have this built in a week or 2 on MTGO, so perhaps we can get some games in.
Yeah, that's almost always what always happens when Gifts is involved.
Ingenuity is definitely not bad, by any means. I just wonder if I'm forgetting a better draw spell in this format.
All right. I like it. I'd rather just run Windreaver, though. I dislike Teferi. I don't want the hassle of having to protect it.
As far as sweepers go, they aren't a huge problem because you're able to Zenith on your opponent's end step. So you can go ahead and attack and have mana untapped for counterspells (so you can counter said sweeper). The only card I would worry about is Consume the Meek.
Well, that would really suck.
FYI, I am playing a pair of Mystical Teachings and 2-3 Gifts Ungiven in the deck, as well as Loam/Oona's Grace. Also, I found an upgraded Urza's Factory for the manabase: Vitu-Ghazi, the City-Tree. If you are interested, I can post the full list of the work in progress.
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Island
1 Snow-Covered Island
1 Mountain
1 Watery Grave
1 Steam Vents
1 Breeding Pool
1 Blood Crypt
1 Stomping Ground
1 Overgrown Tomb
1 Sunken Ruins
1 Graven Cairns
1 Sulfur Falls
1 Drowned Catacomb
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Academy Ruins
1 Urza's Factory
4 Desperate Ravings
1 Mystical Teachings
2 Gifts Ungiven
1 Grim Harvest
1 Life from the Loam
1 Oona's Grace
4 Rune Snag
2 Remand
1 Negate
1 Dissipate
1 Rewind
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Cryptic Command
1 Lightning Bolt
1 Repeal
1 Terminate
1 Putrefy
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Firespout
1 Consume the Meek
1 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Memory's Journey
1 Snapcaster Mage
1 Teferi, Mage of Zhalfir
1 Detritivore
1 Glen Elendra Archmage
1 Flashfreeze
1 Pithing Needle
1 Jund Charm
1 Volcanic Fallout
1 Damnation
1 Darkblast
1 Ancient Grudge
1 Nature's Claim
1 Seize the Soul
4 Death's Shadow
I was using UBGW and Bant Charm/Esper Charm as well as Path and a bunch of other good white removal spells, but the deck just downright needed specific utility lands (Ghost Quarter/Tech Edge, Academy Ruins, something along the lines of Urza's Factory). After realizing that those lands were more important than the somewhat-greedy Charms, I decided to move on to a much more castable draw engine.
Just playing Teachings and Gifts (in any number/configuration) isn't going to help solve the "I need a 3rd or 4th land drop" issue, so I decided to try some supplemental draw power. Think Twice was good, though a little underwhelming. After thinking about the other draw in the format, I realized how perfect Ravings would be. It's already fantastic in combo decks (Storm, hybrid, and otherwise), and it has proven to be a force in Standard control decks. I tried it out, and after about 2 games I was already convinced that it's the right draw spell for the deck. It didn't take very long to understand how insanely powerful this card is, for a control deck with multiple graveyard engines and a generally consistent spell-base. There is such an element of 'trust' that Ravings is going to fix your current problems, as it digs so efficiently for what you don't already have. I've played a few dozen games with the deck by this point, and 4 Ravings is definitely the backbone draw engine for which I have been searching, in this format.
The trouble is that, while 4 colors is very manageable, 5 colors is a bit out of reach. If you're playing a Vivid/Pool manabase or you're using some other tapland configuration, it's not that big of a deal. But if you're trying to cast turn 1 spells to avoid dying to aggro and you're trying to fetch basics to fight Blood Moon, good luck with those taplands.... While I really like the tools white has to offer, it's pretty clear that the core engine demands red and blue for Ravings, black for Teachings, and green for Loam. Sure, Bant Charm and Lightning Helix are nice, but they're really hard to cast. The white card I'm going to miss the most is Vitu-Ghazi, but it's just not worth playing a couple white shocklands and losing to Blood Moon/aggression.
This is definitely a work-in-progress, as I have not labored enough on the deck to give its non-draw spells the consistency I would like. Things like Blood Moon and grave hate are glaring weaknesses, just like how the removal suite is all over the place. That's fine though; those things take some time to work out. I'm definitely playing this deck, whenever the California PTQs are finally announced.
"Return target permanent to its owner's hand"? I'd rather cantrip with Cryptic Command or do it on the cheap with Boomerang.
"Target creature gets -4/-4 until end of turn"? I'd rather play Dismember.
Unlike with Bant Charm, I'm really not certain how good the two options bundled together are. I'd imagine this card shines much more against aggro and blows much more against combo, unlike Bant Charm's usability in all match-ups.
Unless you've hit the late game, don't get me started on Grixis Charm's third option.