[Discussion] Cards That Should be Banned in Modern

  • #101
    PFire can easily face a ban because of how oppressive it is against a lot of decks. But of course nobody can believe this card is bad for the format because "You can just do this!" :|

    I dunno if it should, but it's far too good against far too many archetypes. That much is certain.
    I fly like Faeries, get high like Jace
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  • #102
    Most decks aren't even running the Groves/Fire combo for the facts listed already.

    1. Zoo minimal toughness is 3.
    2. Too slow against Affinity.
    3. Does very little in a control matchup.

    The only deck I see running it is Jund and UGR Gifts.

    I love being able to hold off decks that try and drop their hand by T3. Don't ostrasize a card cause it gives decks a chance against those kind of decks. They have to have both cards to make Punishing Fires good.

    You guys complained that banning Cloudpost would kill the archetype (we all knew it would). But now you want to kill UGR Gifts? The deck is good. Not broken. And if you ban either combo piece, the deck loses all stability against Weenie decks. You would completely hinder another archetype.

    The format hasn't even stabalized from the bannings yet. I say this, cause the bannings aren't even in place yet. I play 6-10 games a night online w/ Jund-Loam (I use the PF/GotB) and not once has it been so broken that it caused my opponent to lose. It kept me in games that I would have lost with my slower strategy, but that's it's job.
  • #103
    Quote from Necroticah
    What does this even mean? Can you please contribute a little more...
    Why do you not think that it isn't the best deck for Aether Vial?
    Which deck do you think is the best?
    ... sigh

    I haven't played since the bannings because I delved into Innistrad, first Standard purchases since Shards of Alara pre-release.

    How have the bannings played on everyone's testing?
    The format seems healthy at the moment.


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    Wink


    DnT is far and away the best Vial deck. Merfolk isn't even close.
  • #104
    Quote from NavyJoe
    Most decks aren't even running the Groves/Fire combo for the facts listed already.

    1. Zoo minimal toughness is 3.
    2. Too slow against Affinity.
    3. Does very little in a control matchup.



    You've got your cause and effect reversed. One of the reasons Zoo's minimal toughness is 3, and it runs Kird Ape over Goblin Guide and such, is because it doesn't want to lose straightway to PF. Even still, PF can still kill things like Nacatal and Kird Ape on the play before the appropriate land can be searched up. Then, a player can start using it twice in one turn once he makes 2rrr, and not even 4 toughness is safe. PF is a big problem, and the reason Zoo is built that way is to minimalize this problem, not to be able to block Lord of Atlantis. Unlike mentioned above, Zoo is not the king of all decks when it comes to creature based mirrors. The Kavu Predator/Oust/Punsihing Fire aggro decks we saw in Philly are. A good sign that you can't beat 'em is when they join 'em. The main problem here is that the deck restraints are ridiculously oppressive. Every playable 1-2cc creature must have 3 toughness, and all others must have at least 5. A ton of would-be answers to the format do not meet this criteria, and are now almost strictly unplayable now that GSZ was banned.

    Likewise, one of the reasons Affinity needed to be so fast was to outpace 12 Post on a PF draw. I submit however that PF is not too slow against affinity. Affinity is reliant on things like Signal Pest and Arcbound Ravager, and after those are killed, Ornithopters and Memnites won't get there. The only thing PF on the play has to fear from affinity is Tempered Steel, and of course Blood Moon.

    And as to control v. control, yeah we see so much of that in this format, tons of cards are practically dead in control mirrors. It will always be that way. And of course, this is not a format where we will see control tooling itself for other control. So, doesn't matter.


    It's hidden in the playtesting, but PF is one of the most compelling reasons why combo was the right choice at Philly. Aggro that was too interactive, or built incorrectly, was just too big of a dog in the wrong matchup, and even built with the above constraints, you were dependent on the coin-flip. These restraints are just too oppressive.
  • #105
    Quote from nwong
    DnT is far and away the best Vial deck. Merfolk isn't even close.


    Wait, DnT is a real deck? In any format? I guess I missed something.

    Also, a note to the people suggesting a ban on PUNISHING FREAKING FIRE. Please lay off smoking crack, it's bad for you. Something needs to be a check on weenie aggro now that combo got banhammered. Enter Punishing/Grove. It's also pretty good against control, if you didn't know (kind of hard to counter the inevitable burn engine forever).

    Quote from Justice1337
    You've got your cause and effect reversed. One of the reasons Zoo's minimal toughness is 3, and it runs Kird Ape over Goblin Guide and such, is because it doesn't want to lose straightway to PF.




    Please stop drawing cause-effect relationships where there are none and strawmanning. Zoo has ALWAYS run the largest creatures it can for the smallest amounts of mana (this goes all the way back to the days of Watchwolf and company, and probably long before that). Immunity to Punishing/Grove is just an unintentional benefit.
    Last edited by Admiral_Arzar: 9/28/2011 1:18:54 PM
    Legacy:
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    Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
  • #106
    Quote from Pein
    I'm sorry vs elves it's also totally ownage. The 1/1 elves die even with a lord out. Lords die to unless they are coupled with another lord (very improbable given that if you run punishing fire combo you are also running other cheap red removal).
    TLDR: punishing fire destroys merfolks, elves, or any kind of weenie deck like soldiers or knights or any tribal.deck.
    Zoo is already the best aggro deck. Punishing fire makes the aggro department even more imbalanced.



    ZOO makes other non-affinity aggro decks unplayable because of goyf, nactl, and KotR. Zoo with ancient grudge in board is actually favored against affinity. How many decks even run PK-fire? Some jund and some zoo.... thats a low % of decks. Plus zoo can run cards like pyroclasm in board to deal with elf and merfolk decks because all of their creatures are bigger and more efficent.

    Zoo is the aggro deck, and for at least the foreseeable future it will remain so.


    Quote from feathers
    PFire can easily face a ban because of how oppressive it is against a lot of decks. But of course nobody can believe this card is bad for the format because "You can just do this!" :|

    I dunno if it should, but it's far too good against far too many archetypes. That much is certain.


    Its not bad for the format. We have tons of ways to shut it down if its such a big deal. Honestly it has seen almost no modern play this far and will only see a decent % of play if aggro decks dominate the format. It was never broke in 1.x and it wont be broke in modern at least in the near future.
    In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.


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  • #107
    Punishing Fire even works better for Zoo to burn opposing Cliques than as a Control tool to combat Zoo. Ban it? We all know that WotC loves Zoo and other turn-creatures-sideways.dec. The engine is not going to be banned anytime soon.
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  • #108
    Quote from Admiral_Arzar
    Wait, DnT is a real deck? In any format? I guess I missed something.


    It would be if more people played it. I believe it was even a DtB for a while last year (Legacy). It doesn't help that the Green splash version of it is now lumped under Maverick.
    Last edited by nwong: 9/28/2011 6:45:09 PM
  • #109
    Yay, Dissipate for Punishing Fire for the win!

    DnT is probably the best for Aether Vial, but Merfolk is a way better deck. In other words, if I ever want to get my hands on Aether Vial - it would be for Merfolk, not DnT (I'm not saying that DnT is not the best for Vial.)
    :symu::symu::symu::symb::symb::symb::symr::symr::symr::dimir::rakdos::izzet::symr::symr::symr::symb::symb::symb::symu::symu::symu:

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  • #110
    Are you guys actually advocating banning Punishing Fire in a format full of x/3 or bigger aggro creatures? Yeah, that makes no sense whatsoever.
  • #111
    I see a lot of people going on about punishing fire, but I have never seen it in action. I think it is bulky, slow, and not worth the space myself, but many folks have raved about it being great for this or that matchup, so I assumed I would see someone pull it out in a few games at least, but so far have not. Week before last I went on a MTGO bender and played 70+ games in the tourney practice room over the week, and never saw anyone use punishing fire, and only once saw a single grove. It looks to me like a golden calf that a bunch of deck builders feel looks great on paper, but is not that great in reality, but I could be wrong.
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #112
    My bet is punishing fire gets banned next december. I don't know how many times I've lost to any deck with them with my elves deck. It's just impossible to beat. And it's not only zoo decks that play that combo. It's many decks, from zoo to jund to rockish decks. It's that good and oppressive. If you don't have goyf you can't play other aggro decks because they get owned by punishing fire. If you want to play zoo you can't because you don't have the 400$ playset. GG.
    Quote from ThaPhantom07
    Are you guys actually advocating banning Punishing Fire in a format full of x/3 or bigger aggro creatures? Yeah, that makes no sense whatsoever.

    It's like that for some reasons, and one of them is certainly punishing fire combo.
    Last edited by Nyzzeh: 9/29/2011 4:01:24 AM
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #113
    Quote from Pein
    My bet is punishing fire gets banned next december. I don't know how many times I've lost to any deck with them with my elves deck. It's just impossible to beat. And it's not only zoo decks that play that combo. It's many decks, from zoo to jund to rockish decks. It's that good and oppressive. If you don't have goyf you can't play other aggro decks because they get owned by punishing fire. If you want to play zoo you can't because you don't have the 400$ playset. GG.

    Where do you play that you are seeing it?
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #114
    Mtgo. Actually, this morning have played 1 match, and g1 and g2 the guy had the combo ready. My elves were dying 1 or 2 per turn while his dark confidant and kitchen finks did the rest. And like this many other games. Mtgo is full of this combo, don't know why you haven't met them. Probably because they side the PFs on g2 and g3 if they are not useful.

    The fact that the grove gets tutored by the second best aggro creature in the format makes it even more ban worthy.
    Last edited by Nyzzeh: 9/29/2011 4:05:46 AM
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #115
    Quote from Pein
    Mtgo. Actually, this morning have played 1 match, and g1 and g2 the guy had the combo ready. My elves were dying 1 or 2 per turn while his dark confidant and kitchen finks did the rest. And like this many other games. Mtgo is full of this combo, don't know why you haven't met them. Probably because they side the PFs on g2 and g3 if they are not useful.

    Actually I have been playing single games for the most part, as it is hard for me to block out the time for a match most of the time. Even if they are siding in for PF, I still have only ever faced a single deck that packed (or least played) Grove. It is conceivable that I have just missed it, but then do not play aggro most of the time, so it might not be as useful.
    GaJo
    tumblr: thewormturns
    MTGO: Dr Worm
    EDH: Earl, Ghaiji Aggro, Snow Patrol, Shirei, Eeshatron, Momir Big, What's Yours is Mine, Punisher
    Modern: Red Snow Devotion, X-Force, Black Devotion Control
    Currently Testing: Fever Dream

    ؟ is the "Irony Mark", but since no one seems to be able to use the term "irony" correctly, I hereby dub it the "Sarcasm Mark."
  • #116
    Fact is we will see at worlds how much it is played.
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #117
    Quote from Necroticah
    DnT is probably the best for Aether Vial, but Merfolk is a way better deck. In other words, if I ever want to get my hands on Aether Vial - it would be for Merfolk, not DnT (I'm not saying that DnT is not the best for Vial.)


    That's debatable. If it was pre-banning Modern, this would probably be true because Merfolk is blue. Right now, though, I have no idea which is better. I will say Punishing Fire does kind of do Merfolk in. DnT is far more resilient to it and has more ways of dealing with it.

    On topic: Punishing Fire is the least of the things that we should be worried about. It's a solid roleplayer in Jund/Zoo. What really makes these decks is Bob and Nacatl. Even without Punishing Fire, all these other weenie strategies that are getting pushed out would probably still lose to the bigger Zoo creatures, or to the card advantage in Jund.
  • #118
    Quote from Pein
    Mtgo. Actually, this morning have played 1 match, and g1 and g2 the guy had the combo ready. My elves were dying 1 or 2 per turn while his dark confidant and kitchen finks did the rest. And like this many other games. Mtgo is full of this combo, don't know why you haven't met them. Probably because they side the PFs on g2 and g3 if they are not useful.

    The fact that the grove gets tutored by the second best aggro creature in the format makes it even more ban worthy.


    you were the one that was saying that cloudpost was not broken and now your saying that punishing fire is broke? Punishing fire is really good against elves, but elves is really good against decks not running it.(that is if your running combo elves)

    I promise you its perfectly fair because it can't be tutored for effectivly.
    In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.


    Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
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    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

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  • #119
    Quote from slipknot72102
    you were the one that was saying that cloudpost was not broken and now your saying that punishing fire is broke? Punishing fire is really good against elves, but elves is really good against decks not running it.(that is if your running combo elves)

    I promise you its perfectly fair because it can't be tutored for effectivly.

    ... if you ban everything left and right that's what happens.
    MTGO Modern Player

    The next Modern ban will be Birthing Pod
  • #120
    Quote from Pein
    ... if you ban everything left and right that's what happens.


    Everything isnt banned... its only like 20 some cards. Plenty of cards to still build with.
    Back to limited, I wash my hands of Modern. It was fun while it lasted, but the format is no longer fun for me.
  • #121
    i only see people complaing to ban cards that are good/bad against their decks...

    ban x, because it kills y
    ban z, because i can't deal with it with my w deck.
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  • #122
    ban more affinity card and make it totally out of modern format.
  • #123
    Quote from slipknot72102
    you were the one that was saying that cloudpost was not broken and now your saying that punishing fire is broke? Punishing fire is really good against elves, but elves is really good against decks not running it.(that is if your running combo elves)

    I promise you its perfectly fair because it can't be tutored for effectivly.


    You are correct, and the combo isn't even good. If you don't believe me or slipknot, just check the price of Grove, it has been steadily falling since Modern was announced.

    Zoo doesn't even want to play that card. It doesn't pump Nacatl and it gives the opponent life, which makes it terrible vs Combo and Control, pretending for a second Control exists. It isn't efficient so it is only good in attrition matchups, against decks like Melira Combo. It acts as a reasonable answer to Planeswalkers but that hardly justifies it, they aren't exactly widely played.

    Seriously, Pein, Firespout is 10x the card against Elves, same with Engineered Explosives. If people want to beat Elves, it can be hated out and beaten. It is good in a meta with less creature removal, but when Zoo is dominant Elves is a bad deck, both due to the Zoo matchup and the amount of removal being played.

    I'm not really sure I can see anything else being banned from Modern not in Innistraad except part of Splinter Twin.dec and Cranial Plating. Preordain/Ponder may have already hurt Twin enough, it is impossible to know. I actually think plating is worse than the artifact lands but is just broken in fewer decks. They would have to ban disciple if they let the lands back in, but that's another discussion. Gifts would maybe be a distant third, but it isn't broken, or even played in Legacy, so I doubt it will be too good in Modern.
  • #124
    Quote from BTdubs
    You are correct, and the combo isn't even good. If you don't believe me or slipknot, just check the price of Grove, it has been steadily falling since Modern was announced.

    Zoo doesn't even want to play that card. It doesn't pump Nacatl and it gives the opponent life, which makes it terrible vs Combo and Control, pretending for a second Control exists. It isn't efficient so it is only good in attrition matchups, against decks like Melira Combo. It acts as a reasonable answer to Planeswalkers but that hardly justifies it, they aren't exactly widely played.

    Seriously, Pein, Firespout is 10x the card against Elves, same with Engineered Explosives. If people want to beat Elves, it can be hated out and beaten. It is good in a meta with less creature removal, but when Zoo is dominant Elves is a bad deck, both due to the Zoo matchup and the amount of removal being played.

    I'm not really sure I can see anything else being banned from Modern not in Innistraad except part of Splinter Twin.dec and Cranial Plating. Preordain/Ponder may have already hurt Twin enough, it is impossible to know. I actually think plating is worse than the artifact lands but is just broken in fewer decks. They would have to ban disciple if they let the lands back in, but that's another discussion. Gifts would maybe be a distant third, but it isn't broken, or even played in Legacy, so I doubt it will be too good in Modern.


    About affinity:

    With the lands being banned all you really have to do is keep a high number creatures off the board and cranial plating isn't so bad. really only blue and black struggle with destroying artifacts, and they have answers with removal or other niche cards. Affinity even with plating is just as easily hated out as elves.
    In life all we can do is try to make things better. Sitting lost in old ways and fearing change only makes us outdated and ignorant.


    Peace cannot be kept by force. It can only be achieved by understanding.
    Albert Einstein


    Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.

    Thomas Jefferson

    League of Legends on MTGS
  • #125
    Quote from slipknot72102
    About affinity:

    With the lands being banned all you really have to do is keep a high number creatures off the board and cranial plating isn't so bad. really only blue and black struggle with destroying artifacts, and they have answers with removal or other niche cards. Affinity even with plating is just as easily hated out as elves.


    With Darksteel Citadel, Plating, and either Mox Opal or Springlead Dum, every creature the deck draws is a serious threat. Inkmoth Nexus is a 3 turn clock, and it isn't hard to make Blinkmoth nexus one either.

    They are always going to have 4 platings, can every deck really afford 4 artifact removal spells in the board? Decks that run Grudge and Pridemage are fine, but it is not easily hated out like elves, I can't win just by having a few sweepers.
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