I think they should Unban Mental misstep to control combo. Lets face it, the eternal formats need a free counter spell. Legacy has force of will, modern will have misstep. $80 vs $5
If they ever try the pherixan mana again (Which I guess I am in the minority of people who love it) they should throw in something like "You have to control an island also"
Unban the artifact lands and instead just ban the Arcbound Ravager
My problem with the ban list is that half the time it seems wizards bans the cards that make the reasons the broken decks work work, but not the problems themselves.
Personally I would like to see some white enchantments get banned. Leyline of sanctity destroys R/B and cards like that just arent fun. Either toss it or break the wheel in half by giving red the enchantment destruction it so badly needs (but I know will never get)
I think they should Unban Mental misstep to control combo. Lets face it, the eternal formats need a free counter spell. Legacy has force of will, modern will have misstep. $80 vs $5
MM very nearly destroyed Legacy, to the point where they had to ban it to save format diversity (and any semblance of fun). I do not want or need that abomination legal in modern.
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Legacy: UBRGW T.E.S. UUUSpiral Tide
Modern: UBR Grixis Control
EDH: UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
MM very nearly destroyed Legacy, to the point where they had to ban it to save format diversity (and any semblance of fun). I do not want or need that abomination legal in modern.
Anyone asking for MM to be unbanned doesnt understand what it would do to the format. Many have tried to explain it, but some just dont get it. I dont think MM will ever be unbanned.
Modern does not need a free counterspell. If combo is so bad that you'd want a free counterspell, then the degenerate combos should be banned. The point of modern is that it's not a format where overly degenerate decks allow games to devolve into an opening hand competition. Spell Pierce should be enough to disrupt combo if it tries to go off "on schedule" in front of a permission deck. Decks that aren't blue, and don't play permission have no business countering things.
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Anyone asking for MM to be unbanned doesnt understand what it would do to the format. Many have tried to explain it, but some just dont get it. I dont think MM will ever be unbanned.
I don't get what unbanning MM would do to modern. Other than kill Zoo and Aether Vial...
Kill burn, kill discard, kill 1CC counter spells, kill Zoo, kill some of affinity, kill most aggro decks with 1-drops, kill combo decks.. should i continues? That card alone would turn Teaching and NLU into something similarly monstrous as 12-post.
Burn is already unplayable.
Zoo and Affinity I'll give you as the only real aggro decks. but people are *****ing about Goyf and Plating and Ravager, etc...
Combo....really? Without Ponder and Preordain most combo decks as we know it are dead. The ones that aren't don't rely on one CMC spells.
Control decks might degenerate, but the only things they are really fighting over that I can think of would be discards and Spell Snares...
Kinda what I am driving at....good one, This is NOT legacy.
@ Modern doesn't need a free counter spell- Really?
EDIT: I don't really care. Keep it banned. The problem I have is that people think that they can correctly evaluate the implications of having some spells in the format but don't care to explain why or how it is degenerate. It seems to me that the "Modern" format was created to give the constant "ban-whiners" a place to go and have a safe, saccharin, non-OP card format.
Pretty soon, we'll all be turning Chimney Imps sideways, until enough of the player base complains that it is broken....
Disrupting Shoal has a high enough cost to use it that it's merely good, though. You can shock yourself all day to stop Zoo (Or whatever) because you know a live Wild Nacatl is worse; pitching cards to deal with anything that isn't a clear and present danger though is a losing proposition. Disrupting Shoal is also less consistent than Misstep (No guarantee you'll have your x-drop in hand) and, you know, actually requires you to play blue. Shoal is good, but nowhere as good as Misstep, and it exists as one in several tools control has in the format, instead of being an oppressive blunt instrument. If control needs Misstep to be good then there are deeper problems, but shoal isn't so good that it's single-handedly making control viable; different situations.
Honestly, in circumstances where a card has real arguments in favour of banning it, the tiebreaker should be to ask whether that card's existence makes the game better or worse. And Misstep makes the game worse.
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Disrupting Shoal has a high enough cost to use it that it's merely good, though. You can shock yourself all day to stop Zoo (Or whatever) because you know a live Wild Nacatl is worse; pitching cards to deal with anything that isn't a clear and present danger though is a losing proposition. Disrupting Shoal is also less consistent than Misstep (No guarantee you'll have your x-drop in hand) and, you know, actually requires you to play blue. Shoal is good, but nowhere as good as Misstep, and it exists as one in several tools control has in the format, instead of being an oppressive blunt instrument. If control needs Misstep to be good then there are deeper problems, but shoal isn't so good that it's single-handedly making control viable; different situations.
I am just saying that I don't think that Misstep would even be that good, were it unbanned.
I think there is a deeper problem with Modern; namely a mostly arbitrary ban list...
It is going to take time to flesh out the format, but before people ***** "MOAR BANNINGS" or even "ZOMG!!! IF ONLY THEY WOULD UNBAN X THEN MY PET DECK WOULD ROCK!!" and have the gumption to think out loud on threads, you should at least have a REAL argument as to why.
Personally, I don't pretend to know either way what should be banned or unbanned. I have never seen this format with Jace 2, MM, AV, SDT in it, for example.
Those cards were banned when the format was announced because Wizards didn't want the very first Modern event to be dominated by degenerate decks. Yes, maybe some of them would be fine in the Modern card pool, but Wizards would rather have people complain about the banlist being "random" than have a Pro Tour ruined by an extremely broken format. In fact, the results from the first sanctioned Modern events seemingly show they didn't go far enough.
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I am just saying that I don't think that Misstep would even be that good, were it unbanned.
I think there is a deeper problem with Modern; namely a mostly arbitrary ban list...
It is going to take time to flesh out the format, but before people ***** "MOAR BANNINGS" or even "ZOMG!!! IF ONLY THEY WOULD UNBAN X THEN MY PET DECK WOULD ROCK!!" and have the gumption to think out loud on threads, you should at least have a REAL argument as to why.
Personally, I don't pretend to know either way what should be banned or unbanned. I have never seen this format with Jace 2, MM, AV, SDT in it, for example.
do I have a point?
So you are saying you want to trade a format dominated by combo or aggro for control. The object is balance, not having one archtype dominate. There was play prior to the format being announced. They tried to eliminate the degenerate stuff. Personally I think they got most of it.
So you are saying you want to trade a format dominated by combo or aggro for control. The object is balance, not having one archtype dominate. There was play prior to the format being announced. They tried to eliminate the degenerate stuff. Personally I think they got most of it.
No. I think the decks should speak as to what needs banned.
I played Bushwhacker storm. They banned Ponder and Preordain. I agree.
GSZ was degenerate. I agreed with this banning.
Cloudpost- baaaaad. I agree.
I am for balance as well, but again, most of the ban list was created arbitrarily.
That is all. Plus it irks me when people suggest banning things like Goyf and Ravager. I mean, c'mon....
Jace 2. Without Stoneforge, he is probably fine. He is a 4-drop....
Ancestral Vision- Doesn't happen until t5
Something to enable Dredge a little. like Dread Return....
Chrome Mox-
Umezawa's Jitte
I don't want to make arguments as to why most of these are probably fine. I could concede that Jace might be bad. Maybe Dread Return too.
Again, I do not pretend to know why though. I do not have a solid argument for taking them off or keeping them on. They seem like the most harmless ones though.
I think the format would be slightly more interesting were these cards legal. That is all.
Basically, I am trying to take a non-position (which is inherently a position), but just trying to make a point. I have been playing Magic on and off since 1995. This is the first time I have ever heard this many people saying "Ban X" all the time. I was around during "combo winter" for chris'sake....Not saying that makes me an authority or "better than you", just saying I have seen more degenerate formats.
Jace 2. Without Stoneforge, he is probably fine. He is a 4-drop....
Ancestral Vision- Doesn't happen until t5
Something to enable Dredge a little. like Dread Return....
Chrome Mox-
Umezawa's Jitte
Chrome Mox was banned along with the spirit of the format, which is to say that they don't want people killing you consistently turn 3 or earlier. Unbanning it just makes the clock faster.
Chrome Mox was banned along with the spirit of the format, which is to say that they don't want people killing you consistently turn 3 or earlier. Unbanning it just makes the clock faster.
For which deck, again? I am not asking smart-assedly. I genuinely want to know which deck this card enables.
Chrome Mox is fast mana acceleration and in effect it speeds up every combo kill, since it puts you one turn ahead on mana (So you can cast what you would normally cast on turn three on turn two, and so on). It's banned basically because it would make the format too fast, enabling both turn-three combo kills and turn-one Bitterblossoms and Bobs (Chrome Mox was in the original banlist prior to the format's official announcement, and thus was banned before Bitterblossom).
Jitte was banned because Stoneforge Mystic is a card; now that she was banned, it might be unbanned in the future. Jace and Vision were banned because Wizards wanted to keep the highest end of blue control staples out of the format, to prevent blue control from being too dominant. Given how broken Jace is, I have to agree on that count (Resolving a Jace wins the game, period) although Ancestral Vision could probably be allowed to exist once the format settles. Dread Return was banned because banning Golgari Grave-Troll was, incredibly, still not enough to keep Dredge from being a faster combo deck than is supposed to exist in this format. Wizards shot for a rule that decks should goldfish on turn four at best, and that pretty much rules out Dredge entirely.
Chrome Mox is fast mana acceleration and in effect it speeds up every combo kill, since it puts you one turn ahead on mana (So you can cast what you would normally cast on turn three on turn two, and so on). It's banned basically because it would make the format too fast, enabling both turn-three combo kills and turn-one Bitterblossoms and Bobs (Chrome Mox was in the original banlist prior to the format's official announcement, and thus was banned before Bitterblossom).
Jitte was banned because Stoneforge Mystic is a card; now that she was banned, it might be unbanned in the future. Jace and Vision were banned because Wizards wanted to keep the highest end of blue control staples out of the format, to prevent blue control from being too dominant. Given how broken Jace is, I have to agree on that count (Resolving a Jace wins the game, period) although Ancestral Vision could probably be allowed to exist once the format settles. Dread Return was banned because banning Golgari Grave-Troll was, incredibly, still not enough to keep Dredge from being a faster combo deck than is supposed to exist in this format. Wizards shot for a rule that decks should goldfish on turn four at best, and that pretty much rules out Dredge entirely.
your entirely wrong on your assesment of the format. Jace was far from broken before they banned him(in the second round of bannings) because 4 mana sorcories are far from what control wants in this meta. Jace wasn't even broken in standard until alara got replaced by scars and every viable way to easily take care of him left with it.
As for chrome mox it's not a card that fits in just any combo deck. It might make charbelcher a deck(like anyone is afraid of it), and it can speed up a splinter-twin deck that is either going to be too weak to be good or to good not to have something banned. It also gives control decks the ability to counter things ealier and actually use good spells which will hurt combo decks far more than a 35% chance of being up by 1 mana in the first 3 turns. Remember that the draw back on chrome mox is pretty bad if you think about it. Most decks in this meta cannot afford to pitch colored spells especially storm since they need 6 spells in their hands to win anyways.
Dredge was honestly slow before it got killed by wotc. It was an average of turn 4.25 win without disruption. ZOO,affinity, and every other combo deck was/is faster.
Jitte was wotcs determination to kill control decks. Even non-faerie decks used it with vendlion cliques and other things of that sort to turn the crappy control finishers into decent win cons. Now how the hell does control finish the game? tezz? way to slow, Gifts? oh wait i'm already dead, goyf? why not since its the last good blue finisher in the format.
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This is not my assessment of the format, this is me explaining the rationale for the banning and commenting on it a bit. If you think that Jace isn't broken then take it up with Tom LaPille, but the point is his banning isn't arbitrary. The second round of bannings took out a lot of powerful control decks to try and stick to the expected baseline of speed in the format, and so Jace was banned along with it because the expectation was that, 1. Jace would have the same impact on Modern that he has in Legacy, only more so and 2. It's better to ban Jace early on and consider his impact later after the format settles, than to watch Modern turn into a redux of recent Standard where JTMS decks were unbelievably bad.
This isn't a meta. Modern has existed for all of two months. The format doesn't really exist yet. It consists of Zoo because Zoo is a blunt instrument that hardly cares about what's across the table from it. The ban list is based on decks, cards and strategies that have historically been degenerate or oppressive in past formats, and everything on the banlist has been at some point or another.
As for control finishers, I hear Sword of Feast and Famine is a card. Also, if you're rushing to end the game to the point that you can't resolve a 4 or 5 CMC creature, you're not playing control.
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This is not my assessment of the format, this is me explaining the rationale for the banning and commenting on it a bit. If you think that Jace isn't broken then take it up with Tom LaPille, but the point is his banning isn't arbitrary.
Well you were taking up for the bannings thus you agree.
The second round of bannings took out a lot of powerful control decks to try and stick to the expected baseline of speed in the format, and so Jace was banned along with it because the expectation was that, 1. Jace would have the same impact on Modern that he has in Legacy, only more so and 2.
You didn't play modern before it actually became a format did you. powerful control is a running joke. Also jace is tons better in legacy because 1 you can play it on 3rd turn. 2 you never have to tap out for it because of free counterspells. 3. you can actually play islands in that format because you have decent card draw, counterspells, and brainstorm.
Jace was terrible in modern before they banned it. even tom said the reason that it was banned was because it was too good in standard which makes no sense because modern is the second fastest format...you don't even have to worry about counterspells.
It's better to ban Jace early on and consider his impact later after the format settles, than to watch Modern turn into a redux of recent Standard where JTMS decks were unbelievably bad.
That could never happen. Jace was pretty bad in standard when alara was legal, its not because people didn't try jace, but because they had answers. a 4 cost socery that brainstorms and then gets killed by one creature is far from good. Every deck in the format could deal with jace, if you actually made it to 4th turn to cast the damn thing.
This isn't a meta. Modern has existed for all of two months. The format doesn't really exist yet. It consists of Zoo because Zoo is a blunt instrument that hardly cares about what's across the table from it. The ban list is based on decks, cards and strategies that have historically been degenerate or oppressive in past formats, and everything on the banlist has been at some point or another.
No it consist of zoo because it is the best deck. Look at old 1.x list. Modern is not new by far. Minus a few changes on the ban list a few random cards from new sets its extended a year and a half ago. Look at PT austin for pete sake...it was a known format and zoo was like 33% of the meta game and had at least 6 top 8 spots. The only cards that are on the ban list that have been historically degenerate are: dark depth, skull clamp, top, and maybe you count the artifact lands. Several other cards like hypergen,glimpse, and cloud post were needed because of this format. Chrome mox, jace, SFM, and several others are not historically broken in a big format. standard is far from counting, just imagine if any number of cards from modern were in standard. Goyf, bob, mystical teachings, engineered explosives, they would all be great, but just because a card is great in standard doesn't mean that it needs to be banned in a large non-rotating format until it is broke in that format.
As for control finishers, I hear Sword of Feast and Famine is a card. Also, if you're rushing to end the game to the point that you can't resolve a 4 or 5 CMC creature, you're not playing control.
Sword of feast and famine is not a control finisher and its not about rushing out to play something. Nothing we have to win with can't just be destroyed or exiled. Chrome mox isn't needed to rush wins, but to speed up things like wrath of god, thirst for knowledge, and gifts ungiven.
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Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined and imprisoned; yet we have not advanced one inch towards uniformity.
This is not my assessment of the format, this is me explaining the rationale for the banning and commenting on it a bit. If you think that Jace isn't broken then take it up with Tom LaPille, but the point is his banning isn't arbitrary. The second round of bannings took out a lot of powerful control decks to try and stick to the expected baseline of speed in the format, and so Jace was banned along with it because the expectation was that, 1. Jace would have the same impact on Modern that he has in Legacy, only more so and 2. It's better to ban Jace early on and consider his impact later after the format settles, than to watch Modern turn into a redux of recent Standard where JTMS decks were unbelievably bad.
This isn't a meta. Modern has existed for all of two months. The format doesn't really exist yet. It consists of Zoo because Zoo is a blunt instrument that hardly cares about what's across the table from it. The ban list is based on decks, cards and strategies that have historically been degenerate or oppressive in past formats, and everything on the banlist has been at some point or another.
As for control finishers, I hear Sword of Feast and Famine is a card. Also, if you're rushing to end the game to the point that you can't resolve a 4 or 5 CMC creature, you're not playing control.
I agree some and disagree some.
Sword of Feast or Famine is not a finisher. It is an enabler, but not a finisher. I have never had someone scoop to a resolved Sword, unless they were so far behind. The card is ridiculous, but it requires other cards to achieve ridiculousness. Plus every aggro strategy could run this card as well, so the argument is not great for this as a "control finisher" because it could equally be an "midrange aggro finisher" with that logic.
Historically degenerate is one thing. I can understand the riddance of degenerate strategies and I do agree with those bannings. I feel more strong about Rite of Flame being banned than I do about Ponder or Preordain (I didn't mention Rite of Flame in my previous post). I think we could have kept one of the filterers with the state of the ban list as is.
However, I would have been more fine with all of those bannings had they given other cards a ban list a shot to exist beforehand. Jace 2, for example, was more oppressive in a format that couldn't deal with him which was post-rotation of Bloodbraid Elf and Maelstrom Pulse (actually Cascade; which brings up another issue). That card pool exists in Modern, and then some. I also agree that Stoneforge Mystic should have been banned initially because of the card pool (Squadron Hawks carrying Swords of all flavors and sizes, plus Batterskulls abound). Jace decks still would have had no shot initially in the format because of the degeneracy of red ritual mana and "free" Hatreds and counter spells (Shoals and Pacts) in quick combos that made the format too fast for most decks.
Also, don't you think it is weird that they didn't ban Bloodbraid Elf? I am by no means trying to make an argument that Bloodbraid Elf is on the same power level as Jace, but, if crafted correctly, you can cascade into disgusting things, which is where the justification for banning Hypergenesis and Ancestral Vision lies. This is kind of ridiculous because counter magic is good against both of those cards.
Cascade is a mechanic that card had a stranglehold on a couple of formats quite some time. It still exists in the format and could deal with Jace as is. If they took out the Cascade cards, they could justify having at least Ancestral Vision back. But they didn't because ban cascade they obviously didn't care to neuter a decent midrange deck like Jund.
As far as Jace; Maelstrom Pulse, Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, etc are still cards.
WotCs banning measures are inconsistent with their supposed philosophy with this format. They have admitted that some of their bannings were arbitrary. This seems like a nonargument.
I am also not saying anything as silly as "ZOMG!!! CONTROL IZ DEAD". It is more like, "Geez, I like playing permission decks. U mad at good counter spells and card drawing, WotC?"
So far I am pretty happy with Forbidden Alchemy, though. I am not trying to complain too much. I just don't like banned cards for no real reason other than "it's not fun for everyone". Well, I am right here saying out loud as a customer of Hasbro products, "It is fun for me". That is all.
your entirely wrong on your assesment of the format. Jace was far from broken before they banned him(in the second round of bannings) because 4 mana sorcories are far from what control wants in this meta. Jace wasn't even broken in standard until alara got replaced by scars and every viable way to easily take care of him left with it.
As for chrome mox it's not a card that fits in just any combo deck. It might make charbelcher a deck(like anyone is afraid of it), and it can speed up a splinter-twin deck that is either going to be too weak to be good or to good not to have something banned. It also gives control decks the ability to counter things ealier and actually use good spells which will hurt combo decks far more than a 35% chance of being up by 1 mana in the first 3 turns. Remember that the draw back on chrome mox is pretty bad if you think about it. Most decks in this meta cannot afford to pitch colored spells especially storm since they need 6 spells in their hands to win anyways.
Dredge was honestly slow before it got killed by wotc. It was an average of turn 4.25 win without disruption. ZOO,affinity, and every other combo deck was/is faster.
Jitte was wotcs determination to kill control decks. Even non-faerie decks used it with vendlion cliques and other things of that sort to turn the crappy control finishers into decent win cons. Now how the hell does control finish the game? tezz? way to slow, Gifts? oh wait i'm already dead, goyf? why not since its the last good blue finisher in the format.
Jace was broken from the day it was printed. If you dont believe that then there is really nothing else to say about it. Jace should have costed UUUU for it to be any where close to being fair.
Please stop with the chrome mox rants. Chrome mox was played in every type deck. It was played in Elves and goblins to different type combo decks to control. Control doesnt have dibs on chrome mox. If they unban it, its going to help all archtypes, probably in ways we have not even thought of because we want it in deck 'x' or 'y'.
Dredge had the possiblitiy of being explosive, but on average went off roughly turn 4. It could go off turn 2 with the right cards and draws tho. Dredge was banned as a deck because of the hate dedication in everyones side for it and its explosiveness.
Jitte, another card you figure control has dibs on. Jitte in Zoo/aggro becomes a Jitte battle. Yes it can be used in control variants but its not going to be exclusively used in control decks. Honestly the damage Jitte would do in aggro decks hinders control even more. Unbanning Jitte would be bad for control.
I really think you are looking at control in the wrong way. You are looking in the past and seeing the decks you want to be viable in Modern just cant hang as the format sits. People are asking for bannings and unbannings due to their recent history with cards, their pet cards, their favorite cards. Control is viable if you would take those blinders off and just build and test until you find the right combonation. I know its worked for me. I know others who say its worked for them.
I'm cautious to raise any eyebrows against a 3/3 on turn one beacuse I love "reckless waif" But Aether vial has been broken from day one.
I think the overpowered artifacts are the biggest targets for the banhammer. beacuse they can go in ANY deck and break the color wheel.
I hate blue and how its R&D's golden little child who mommy and daddy love the most and give all the best toys.
but PONDER? Really, a blue staple? Maybe ban any of the other endless cards that make blue suck so hard, instead of a card that actually uses blues part of the wheel in a fair and fun manner.
I think they should Unban Mental misstep to control combo. Lets face it, the eternal formats need a free counter spell. Legacy has force of will, modern will have misstep. $80 vs $5
If they ever try the pherixan mana again (Which I guess I am in the minority of people who love it) they should throw in something like "You have to control an island also"
Unban the artifact lands and instead just ban the Arcbound Ravager
Oh boy. The Mental Misstep argument again. I really should just post a link in my signature, or at least keep one on file, to my last three exhaustive explanations of why Mental Misstep needs to stay banned. I'll summarize it again here, sort of as a public service announcement to players who need to know the facts:
Mental Misstep is outrageously powerful in combo, not in control
With MM, combo is able to counter fast threats like Signal Pest and Wild Nacatl to race aggro.
With the 3 best 1 CMC cards banned in combo, namely Rite of Flame, Preordain, and Ponder, there is basically nothing that MM does to stop combo except to own poor Pump Infect.
Unbanning this card would usher in an era of turn 4 combo decks, and alone Twin would be OUTRAGEOUSLY powerful.
[QUOTE=apaulogy;/comments/5093452]I am just saying that I don't think that Misstep would even be that good, were it unbanned.
I think there is a deeper problem with Modern; namely a mostly arbitrary ban list...
It is going to take time to flesh out the format, but before people ***** "MOAR BANNINGS" or even "ZOMG!!! IF ONLY THEY WOULD UNBAN X THEN MY PET DECK WOULD ROCK!!" and have the gumption to think out loud on threads, you should at least have a REAL argument as to why.
Personally, I don't pretend to know either way what should be banned or unbanned. I have never seen this format with Jace 2, MM, AV, SDT in it, for example.
do I have a point?
At this juncture, I largely agree with what you are saying. In order to construct persuasive arguments for card bannings, you need to provide evidence. In my opinion, and I think it is a very reasonable opinion, the only good evidence is deck performances from events. Speculation and theorizing only go so far, and we have definitely exhausted that in the last week or so.
I am firmly of the opinion that we should not talk about what cards should be banned or unbanned until we get an updated MTGO metagame. Even then, we really should not be drawing conclusions until after we see dozens of Daily Events. But even then, we still should not draw conclusions until after seeing some paper events, because as the transition from the Pre-PT Philly metagame to PT Philly showed, MTGO did NOT predict deck successes in the real world.
One exception to this is Mental Misstep. I am a combo player. I would kill to see this card unbanned, because it would make my Hive Mind, Breach Hulk, Dragonstorm, and Ad Nauseam decks completely unfair. And the things that card does in Twin are just outrageous.
I really think you are looking at control in the wrong way. You are looking in the past and seeing the decks you want to be viable in Modern just cant hang as the format sits. People are asking for bannings and unbannings due to their recent history with cards, their pet cards, their favorite cards. Control is viable if you would take those blinders off and just build and test until you find the right combonation. I know its worked for me. I know others who say its worked for them.
This seems like a good way of looking at the Modern control "problem". A lot of control players have a very narrow and predefined notion of what control must look like. The best way I can illustrate this is with the relationship between Modern and Legacy. Any player with Legacy familiarity knows about Force of Will, and its importance in that format. These same players all theorize that Modern control requires an equivalent Force of Will, or at the very least a competitive counterspell like, well, Counterspell to form a backbone for Modern control.
Sadly, this is a narrow way of thinking that prohibits innovation. I am not accusing anyone, including Slipknot, of being too narrow or falling too hard for this line of reasoning. But control has a lot of different faces, and bannings/unbannings should not be the only way to unlock its potential in a 6000+ card format.
Jace was terrible in modern before they banned it. even tom said the reason that it was banned was because it was too good in standard which makes no sense because modern is the second fastest format...you don't even have to worry about counterspells.
theres no way modern is slower than vintage before the 3rd set of bans
If they ever try the pherixan mana again (Which I guess I am in the minority of people who love it) they should throw in something like "You have to control an island also"
Unban the artifact lands and instead just ban the Arcbound Ravager
My problem with the ban list is that half the time it seems wizards bans the cards that make the reasons the broken decks work work, but not the problems themselves.
Personally I would like to see some white enchantments get banned. Leyline of sanctity destroys R/B and cards like that just arent fun. Either toss it or break the wheel in half by giving red the enchantment destruction it so badly needs (but I know will never get)
MM very nearly destroyed Legacy, to the point where they had to ban it to save format diversity (and any semblance of fun). I do not want or need that abomination legal in modern.
UBRGW T.E.S.
UUUSpiral Tide
Modern:
UBR Grixis Control
EDH:
UB Oona, Queen of the Fae
Combo is a part of magic. If you cant deal with combo then your not a magic player.
Anyone asking for MM to be unbanned doesnt understand what it would do to the format. Many have tried to explain it, but some just dont get it. I dont think MM will ever be unbanned.
I don't get what unbanning MM would do to modern. Other than kill Zoo and Aether Vial...
Elucidate.
Modern is completely reliant on 1 mana spells such as Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, Dark Ritual, Putrid Imp, Tireless Tribe, Reanimate, Careful Study, Spell Snare, Spell Pierce, Mental Misstep, Goblin Lackey, Glimpse of Nature. Unbanning it would keep decks decks like ANT, Reanimator, Dredge, Combo Elves, Goblins, etc. in check.
Wait...
Guilds of Ravnica - Commander 2018 - Core 2019 - Battlebond - Dominaria - Rivals of Ixalan - Ixalan - Commander 2017 - Hour of Devastation - Amonket - Aether Revolt - Commander 2016 - Kaladesh - Conspiracy 2 - Eldritch Moon - Shadows Over Innistrad - Oath of the Gatewatch - Commander 2015 - Battle for Zendikar - Magic Origins - Dragons of Tarkir
Green - Blue - Red - White - Gold
Burn is already unplayable.
Zoo and Affinity I'll give you as the only real aggro decks. but people are *****ing about Goyf and Plating and Ravager, etc...
Combo....really? Without Ponder and Preordain most combo decks as we know it are dead. The ones that aren't don't rely on one CMC spells.
Control decks might degenerate, but the only things they are really fighting over that I can think of would be discards and Spell Snares...
Kinda what I am driving at....good one, This is NOT legacy.
@ Modern doesn't need a free counter spell- Really?
EDIT: I don't really care. Keep it banned. The problem I have is that people think that they can correctly evaluate the implications of having some spells in the format but don't care to explain why or how it is degenerate. It seems to me that the "Modern" format was created to give the constant "ban-whiners" a place to go and have a safe, saccharin, non-OP card format.
Pretty soon, we'll all be turning Chimney Imps sideways, until enough of the player base complains that it is broken....
Honestly, in circumstances where a card has real arguments in favour of banning it, the tiebreaker should be to ask whether that card's existence makes the game better or worse. And Misstep makes the game worse.
I am just saying that I don't think that Misstep would even be that good, were it unbanned.
I think there is a deeper problem with Modern; namely a mostly arbitrary ban list...
It is going to take time to flesh out the format, but before people ***** "MOAR BANNINGS" or even "ZOMG!!! IF ONLY THEY WOULD UNBAN X THEN MY PET DECK WOULD ROCK!!" and have the gumption to think out loud on threads, you should at least have a REAL argument as to why.
Personally, I don't pretend to know either way what should be banned or unbanned. I have never seen this format with Jace 2, MM, AV, SDT in it, for example.
do I have a point?
So you are saying you want to trade a format dominated by combo or aggro for control. The object is balance, not having one archtype dominate. There was play prior to the format being announced. They tried to eliminate the degenerate stuff. Personally I think they got most of it.
No. I think the decks should speak as to what needs banned.
I played Bushwhacker storm. They banned Ponder and Preordain. I agree.
GSZ was degenerate. I agreed with this banning.
Cloudpost- baaaaad. I agree.
I am for balance as well, but again, most of the ban list was created arbitrarily.
That is all. Plus it irks me when people suggest banning things like Goyf and Ravager. I mean, c'mon....
Ancestral Vision- Doesn't happen until t5
Something to enable Dredge a little. like Dread Return....
Chrome Mox-
Umezawa's Jitte
I don't want to make arguments as to why most of these are probably fine. I could concede that Jace might be bad. Maybe Dread Return too.
Again, I do not pretend to know why though. I do not have a solid argument for taking them off or keeping them on. They seem like the most harmless ones though.
I think the format would be slightly more interesting were these cards legal. That is all.
Basically, I am trying to take a non-position (which is inherently a position), but just trying to make a point. I have been playing Magic on and off since 1995. This is the first time I have ever heard this many people saying "Ban X" all the time. I was around during "combo winter" for chris'sake....Not saying that makes me an authority or "better than you", just saying I have seen more degenerate formats.
Chrome Mox was banned along with the spirit of the format, which is to say that they don't want people killing you consistently turn 3 or earlier. Unbanning it just makes the clock faster.
For which deck, again? I am not asking smart-assedly. I genuinely want to know which deck this card enables.
Jitte was banned because Stoneforge Mystic is a card; now that she was banned, it might be unbanned in the future. Jace and Vision were banned because Wizards wanted to keep the highest end of blue control staples out of the format, to prevent blue control from being too dominant. Given how broken Jace is, I have to agree on that count (Resolving a Jace wins the game, period) although Ancestral Vision could probably be allowed to exist once the format settles. Dread Return was banned because banning Golgari Grave-Troll was, incredibly, still not enough to keep Dredge from being a faster combo deck than is supposed to exist in this format. Wizards shot for a rule that decks should goldfish on turn four at best, and that pretty much rules out Dredge entirely.
your entirely wrong on your assesment of the format. Jace was far from broken before they banned him(in the second round of bannings) because 4 mana sorcories are far from what control wants in this meta. Jace wasn't even broken in standard until alara got replaced by scars and every viable way to easily take care of him left with it.
As for chrome mox it's not a card that fits in just any combo deck. It might make charbelcher a deck(like anyone is afraid of it), and it can speed up a splinter-twin deck that is either going to be too weak to be good or to good not to have something banned. It also gives control decks the ability to counter things ealier and actually use good spells which will hurt combo decks far more than a 35% chance of being up by 1 mana in the first 3 turns. Remember that the draw back on chrome mox is pretty bad if you think about it. Most decks in this meta cannot afford to pitch colored spells especially storm since they need 6 spells in their hands to win anyways.
Dredge was honestly slow before it got killed by wotc. It was an average of turn 4.25 win without disruption. ZOO,affinity, and every other combo deck was/is faster.
Jitte was wotcs determination to kill control decks. Even non-faerie decks used it with vendlion cliques and other things of that sort to turn the crappy control finishers into decent win cons. Now how the hell does control finish the game? tezz? way to slow, Gifts? oh wait i'm already dead, goyf? why not since its the last good blue finisher in the format.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
This isn't a meta. Modern has existed for all of two months. The format doesn't really exist yet. It consists of Zoo because Zoo is a blunt instrument that hardly cares about what's across the table from it. The ban list is based on decks, cards and strategies that have historically been degenerate or oppressive in past formats, and everything on the banlist has been at some point or another.
As for control finishers, I hear Sword of Feast and Famine is a card. Also, if you're rushing to end the game to the point that you can't resolve a 4 or 5 CMC creature, you're not playing control.
Sword of feast and famine is not a control finisher and its not about rushing out to play something. Nothing we have to win with can't just be destroyed or exiled. Chrome mox isn't needed to rush wins, but to speed up things like wrath of god, thirst for knowledge, and gifts ungiven.
Albert Einstein
Thomas Jefferson
I agree some and disagree some.
Sword of Feast or Famine is not a finisher. It is an enabler, but not a finisher. I have never had someone scoop to a resolved Sword, unless they were so far behind. The card is ridiculous, but it requires other cards to achieve ridiculousness. Plus every aggro strategy could run this card as well, so the argument is not great for this as a "control finisher" because it could equally be an "midrange aggro finisher" with that logic.
Historically degenerate is one thing. I can understand the riddance of degenerate strategies and I do agree with those bannings. I feel more strong about Rite of Flame being banned than I do about Ponder or Preordain (I didn't mention Rite of Flame in my previous post). I think we could have kept one of the filterers with the state of the ban list as is.
However, I would have been more fine with all of those bannings had they given other cards a ban list a shot to exist beforehand. Jace 2, for example, was more oppressive in a format that couldn't deal with him which was post-rotation of Bloodbraid Elf and Maelstrom Pulse (actually Cascade; which brings up another issue). That card pool exists in Modern, and then some. I also agree that Stoneforge Mystic should have been banned initially because of the card pool (Squadron Hawks carrying Swords of all flavors and sizes, plus Batterskulls abound). Jace decks still would have had no shot initially in the format because of the degeneracy of red ritual mana and "free" Hatreds and counter spells (Shoals and Pacts) in quick combos that made the format too fast for most decks.
Also, don't you think it is weird that they didn't ban Bloodbraid Elf? I am by no means trying to make an argument that Bloodbraid Elf is on the same power level as Jace, but, if crafted correctly, you can cascade into disgusting things, which is where the justification for banning Hypergenesis and Ancestral Vision lies. This is kind of ridiculous because counter magic is good against both of those cards.
Cascade is a mechanic that card had a stranglehold on a couple of formats quite some time. It still exists in the format and could deal with Jace as is. If they took out the Cascade cards, they could justify having at least Ancestral Vision back. But they didn't because ban cascade they obviously didn't care to neuter a decent midrange deck like Jund.
As far as Jace; Maelstrom Pulse, Oblivion Ring, Pithing Needle, etc are still cards.
WotCs banning measures are inconsistent with their supposed philosophy with this format. They have admitted that some of their bannings were arbitrary. This seems like a nonargument.
I am also not saying anything as silly as "ZOMG!!! CONTROL IZ DEAD". It is more like, "Geez, I like playing permission decks. U mad at good counter spells and card drawing, WotC?"
So far I am pretty happy with Forbidden Alchemy, though. I am not trying to complain too much. I just don't like banned cards for no real reason other than "it's not fun for everyone". Well, I am right here saying out loud as a customer of Hasbro products, "It is fun for me". That is all.
Jace was broken from the day it was printed. If you dont believe that then there is really nothing else to say about it. Jace should have costed UUUU for it to be any where close to being fair.
Please stop with the chrome mox rants. Chrome mox was played in every type deck. It was played in Elves and goblins to different type combo decks to control. Control doesnt have dibs on chrome mox. If they unban it, its going to help all archtypes, probably in ways we have not even thought of because we want it in deck 'x' or 'y'.
Dredge had the possiblitiy of being explosive, but on average went off roughly turn 4. It could go off turn 2 with the right cards and draws tho. Dredge was banned as a deck because of the hate dedication in everyones side for it and its explosiveness.
Jitte, another card you figure control has dibs on. Jitte in Zoo/aggro becomes a Jitte battle. Yes it can be used in control variants but its not going to be exclusively used in control decks. Honestly the damage Jitte would do in aggro decks hinders control even more. Unbanning Jitte would be bad for control.
I really think you are looking at control in the wrong way. You are looking in the past and seeing the decks you want to be viable in Modern just cant hang as the format sits. People are asking for bannings and unbannings due to their recent history with cards, their pet cards, their favorite cards. Control is viable if you would take those blinders off and just build and test until you find the right combonation. I know its worked for me. I know others who say its worked for them.
Aether Vial
Wild Nactal
I'm cautious to raise any eyebrows against a 3/3 on turn one beacuse I love "reckless waif" But Aether vial has been broken from day one.
I think the overpowered artifacts are the biggest targets for the banhammer. beacuse they can go in ANY deck and break the color wheel.
I hate blue and how its R&D's golden little child who mommy and daddy love the most and give all the best toys.
but PONDER? Really, a blue staple? Maybe ban any of the other endless cards that make blue suck so hard, instead of a card that actually uses blues part of the wheel in a fair and fun manner.
At this juncture, I largely agree with what you are saying. In order to construct persuasive arguments for card bannings, you need to provide evidence. In my opinion, and I think it is a very reasonable opinion, the only good evidence is deck performances from events. Speculation and theorizing only go so far, and we have definitely exhausted that in the last week or so.
I am firmly of the opinion that we should not talk about what cards should be banned or unbanned until we get an updated MTGO metagame. Even then, we really should not be drawing conclusions until after we see dozens of Daily Events. But even then, we still should not draw conclusions until after seeing some paper events, because as the transition from the Pre-PT Philly metagame to PT Philly showed, MTGO did NOT predict deck successes in the real world.
One exception to this is Mental Misstep. I am a combo player. I would kill to see this card unbanned, because it would make my Hive Mind, Breach Hulk, Dragonstorm, and Ad Nauseam decks completely unfair. And the things that card does in Twin are just outrageous.
This seems like a good way of looking at the Modern control "problem". A lot of control players have a very narrow and predefined notion of what control must look like. The best way I can illustrate this is with the relationship between Modern and Legacy. Any player with Legacy familiarity knows about Force of Will, and its importance in that format. These same players all theorize that Modern control requires an equivalent Force of Will, or at the very least a competitive counterspell like, well, Counterspell to form a backbone for Modern control.
Sadly, this is a narrow way of thinking that prohibits innovation. I am not accusing anyone, including Slipknot, of being too narrow or falling too hard for this line of reasoning. But control has a lot of different faces, and bannings/unbannings should not be the only way to unlock its potential in a 6000+ card format.
-ktkenshinx-
theres no way modern is slower than vintage before the 3rd set of bans