Tap the copy to make another copy, and so on ad infinitum
Sacrifice all but the original with Mogg Fanatic's ability
Infinite damage and a one-sided board wipe
With only two combo pieces required, just like the Triskelion-Phyrexian Devourer combo, this might be a winner! I'll update the OP with it (and emphasize its dependence on Thornling's haste-giving).
Forget synergy with other creatures; Legacy Ooze Combo sure didn't care that none of its other creatures entered the battlefield with +1/+1 counters on them.
I've read up more on Legacy Ooze Combo, and I found that part of its power was that it had a toolkit to stop other combo decks from going off before it did (e.g. Ethersworn Canonist); I'll try brewing a Junk Ooze Combo list.
With only two combo pieces required, just like the Triskelion-Phyrexian Devourer combo, this might be a winner! I'll update the OP with it (and emphasize its dependence on Thornling's haste-giving).
Forget synergy with other creatures; Legacy Ooze Combo sure didn't care that none of its other creatures entered the battlefield with +1/+1 counters on them.
Let me know if you feel it's worth it. As of right now, I prefer the more synergistic Necrotic Ooze shell that can win off the same number of initial combo cards (Necrotic Ooze in play + Devoted Druid + Fauna Shaman in the yard vs. Necrotic Ooze in play + Kiki-Jiki + Mogg Fanatic in the yard), but this is intriguing. I could see an argument for either, though.
I think that the Kikki-Jikki Mogg Fanatic would be the best alongside a Vengevine list. I will probably get all of the cards together to build multiple variants of this. I think being able to tweak it based on how the meta develops obviously is very important in a toolbox deck which these all are. Right now, as I've said, beating aggro is priority number one. Land Destruction in the sideboard can handle control for the most part. I don't think Slime at five is terribly worth it. I do think that Plow Under and Primal Command are good for topping lands. Primal is good for it's versatility and strength against red. One thing that I also think is important is having dumps for infinite mana. Profane Command is a versatile reanimate/fireball that usually allows Quill to go unblocked. Primal and GSZ allow you to get Thornling (and cast if it was a Primal) then use his own ability to kill himself, allowing Ooze to give itself trample. Ensuring a win is the only thing that Plow under can't do which is my main strike against it.
The Gifted Ooze deck continues to perform well in my testing. The main thing I realized was that a resolved Gifts Ungiven often meant a next-turn win, but sometimes was a bit too slow (if it meant you could play an Ooze next turn, but still had to wait a turn to combo-off). With that in mind, I am considering dropping the Zombify/Makeshift Mannequin plan, and instead adding in a Post-Mortem Lunge and Noxious Revival. A Gifts Ungiven pile revealing Necrotic Ooze, Fauna Shaman (or other combo piece), Noxious Revival and Post-Mortem Lunge seems very strong. The haste-granting of Post-Mortem Lunge seems like it would often mean an insta-kill.
Tap the copy to make another Ooze copy, and so on ad infinitum
Untap all but the original with Devoted Druid's ability
Infinite hasty 3/2's
If you think Kiki-Jiki has no synergy with any of the Extended combo pieces, think again! I'll add it to the OP.
I've also added a Junk decklist and finally added sideboards to my working decklists! Eventually, I'm thinking of making this a primer (as soon as we figure out what colour Ooze Combo decks are viable, from Golgari to Junk to Jund to BUG).
Let me know if you feel it's worth it. As of right now, I prefer the more synergistic Necrotic Ooze shell that can win off the same number of initial combo cards (Necrotic Ooze in play + Devoted Druid + Fauna Shaman in the yard vs. Necrotic Ooze in play + Kiki-Jiki + Mogg Fanatic in the yard), but this is intriguing. I could see an argument for either, though.
Since I found the Devoted Druid-Kiki-Jiki combo, I'm trying to figure out how you insta-win with that pile alone. I guess it's like this:
503.2. When copying an object, the copy acquires the copiable values of the original object’s characteristics (name, mana cost, color, card type, supertype, subtype, expansion symbol, rules text, power, toughness, loyalty) and, for an object on the stack, choices made when playing it (mode, targets, the value of X, whether a kicker cost was paid, how it will affect multiple targets, and so on). The “copiable values” are the values that are printed on the object, as modified by other copy effects, by “as . . . comes into play” and “as . . . is turned face up” abilities that set characteristics, and by abilities that caused the object to be face down. Other effects (including type-changing and text-changing effects), status, and counters are not copied.
Wow, I guess the Kiki-Jiki insta-kill with Devoted Druid and Fauna Shaman in the dump alone does occur. Thanks for making me read the rules!
I wanted to analyze quickly 4 of the combo pieces to determine which ones are needed. There’s no need to talk about Ooze, Shaman or Devoted Druid. I’m also not going to talk about Quillspike because I’ve done so here. Also, I may leave stuff out. This is my second time typing this up as I accidently backspaced the first time so obviously I’m not as excited to type it up.
After each creature, I will ask if it needs haste, ask if it needs Fauna Shaman, and then talk a bit.
Thornling: Haste? Errr… It IS haste. Shaman? No.
One of Thornling’s strengths is that it’s really the only (or one of the only) creatures that doesn’t need Shaman to go off. With DD and Quill Oozable, you can generate infinite mana. Using that mana, you can cast Thornling or GSZ/Command for Thorn, kill it using it’s own ability then can give the infinitely big Ooze trample. Thorn seems built for the Necrotic Ooze as all of the abilities are potentially relevant in the right situation and it’s got five of them! I don’t think there’s much more to explain about this archetype staple but I figured I’d knock it out first, as it’s the most commonly agreed upon dude.
Grim Poppet: Haste? No. Shaman? Needed.
The biggest knock on this guy is that he’s almost completely useless without the combo- though he’s more useful than the uncastible Kiki-Jiki. Grim Poppet’s biggest draw is that his ability and DD’s first both don’t need haste which can buy you time verse agro and 12-post lists alike. The only deck it doesn’t stop is Meliria decks which are probably going to be popular. You don’t actually NEED Fauna Shaman as you could Thoughtsieze yourself which will be right sometimes but not always. If you get him and DD in the yard without Shaman than you can clear the way for a Shaman or Quill that you can tutor up and then kill. Fauna would only work if you had another creature in hand but grabbing and killing Quill with Poppet then swinging for infi into no blocks should get you there. Poppet can also kill a Shaman that’s in play, which is a common way to start chaining things and allows you to do anything you want, really.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker: Haste? Needed. Shaman? Needed.
KJ has the same Poppet problems when it comes to getting in the bin though it also can’t be cast unless there’s a Blood Moon in play or you just completely ruin the manabase. In play, like the Poppet, it also does nothing really. At least Thornling can swing for up to 7 each turn. Where KJ shines is his ability to avoid Path to Exile, one of the premier removal spells of the format. Kikki can combo with Druid and Mogg Fanatic, both that have the added bonus of being able to kill themselves. Because of the two card combinations possible with this, it’s also one of the premier options to Fauna chain through. Though, because of the fact that you need Fauna Shaman to get this going means that there are other options available, like Quillspike, that are more synergistic. The biggest factor in playing KJ is to dodge Path.
Molten-Tail Masticore: Haste? Usually. Fauna? Usually.
Take everything I’ve just said about KJ minus the uncastibility and the two card combo bit. Masticore wont come up really in any way other than having an Ooze that can do it all and needing to dodge Path. Regeneration is quite pointless but there are still a few differences between MTM and KJ. I’ll start with the drawback which is Leyline of Sanctity. Other than boarding in enchantment hate, Leyline of Sanctity does get you if they also have Path. MTM’s bonuses are huge. It’s a way to kill Melira which is huge as Poppet can’t and an infinite life combo trumps an infinite damage combo if it’s still active. With infinite too, MTM can sometimes just be cast for the win without haste or Shaman, which is why I said usually. Although you might not have five guys in the yard to win without Shaman (or four without the killable Ooze), sometimes he may just be able to clear blockers out of the way which is just as good as trample. The last thing to point out about this guy is his ability to kill Shaman, similarly to the Poppet.
Previous Ooze combo required Ooze to not be summoning sick.
Of these issues the last one was probably the largest nail in the coffin. If Ooze hit the field I wanted to win immediately with the least number of cards and mana required.
The New Combo:
Use Devoted Druid's ability to put a -1/-1 counter on Necrotic Ooze.
Use Morselhoarder's ability to remove the -1/-1 and produce a mana.
This version added Kitchen Finks to help combat burn and zoo because it trades favorably with their 3 toughness creatures and gains life. I didn't like the 4 Oozes it was always too many and I preferred to just search for it. Big Game Hunter kills creatures Shriekmaw previously couldn't address.
I love you guys are building just combo but with the wide range of cards available i think its best as a combo control deck...such as eternal witness should not be forgotten. please dont forget good red cards from survival of old and that is squee since you will never hard cast it like kiki-jiki will never get hard casted but fits cuz fauna shaman will just pitch them away. I may not be qualified for this format at philly i just know ppl who are and i want to help build the best deck. also is there any other creature that does what morselhoarder and grim poppet does with -1/-1's?
The old survival decks pre-vengevine built card advantage with squee. The problem is this deck has a limited number of activations of that effect because it is on fauna shaman. This deck can't afford a control strategy and it can't afford to grind them out with squee. Zoo and 12-post are far too fast for that.
I personally feel like a proactive strategy of aggro/combo is the best approach just like the more recent legacy survival decks.
That being said I'm considering the use of a a good b/w/g manabase to add horizon canopy, path to exile, and tutorable hate from the sideboard such as Teeg and Aven Mindcensor.
As another aside I don't believe grim poppet belongs in this deck at all anymore. He is a 7 mana creature with a pointless combo. Just win with Bloodrite Invoker.
This is my current list. Admittedly, I haven't had much time to test it and it is quite clunky. I'm not terribly happy with the mana base. It includes no "wastelands" but it does include two lands that are mostly forgotten here. Oran Rief is good with Finks and against P Fire lists. Gilt-Leaf Palace acts as a GB Scarsland. Like I said thought, very rough list...
I still think that the previous deck I posted is the best possible option for it’s good matchups against control. I should reiterate that my stance on this deck is always that this is a rock deck. Rather than play Goyf and Bob as beaters, I would rather play with toolbox/combo builds. In my opinion, Thoughtseize and Inquistition are the Force of Will of this format and they are the main reason that put me in GB. One thing that I have stressed and that has become apparent as quite good while playing online is that Fauna Shaman is one plan. I think two others that have a lot of potential and synergy with the main deck. The Quillspike option is one. The other uses some of the same shell and borrows idea from many other decks around.
So here we still have the same discard package and the Shaman to set up combos but I’ve changed the secondary plan and it is equally synergistic. Loam allows you to mill yourself similarly to Hedron Crab while giving you access to more combo pieces there and more lands to pump your Knight. Raven’s Crime allows you to proactively discard as well once it’s online and can dump accidently drawn combo pieces. The deck is currently 59 cards. Not sure what that last slot should be. I haven’t tested with this at all- I mostly just theory craft. The 60th card is either another Ooze, Loam, Druid, Quill, or Finks or you could add the Wurm Harvest, Big Game Hunter, or Shriekmaw- I’m not sure if you need it.
This list is better verse combo (only marginally and maybe worse without Inquisition) and control but it loses a LOT of it’s game verse agro. Still, I think it’s the second most powerful shell for this archetype and maybe some of you have ideas on how to improve it. Junk is my personal play preference but it’s also always going to be well positioned.
EDIT: I forgot about Thornling which probably warrants inclusion. I don't think you need Masticore here as you have the Invoker kill.
I always try to wait more than the 2-3 days before double posting to see if anyone has any input on the thread that I can discuss. Because of this, I normally just open up a notepad and begin to type there but it adds up when I have a lot of thoughts… so there’s a lot of information here:
I might think about something like this rather than the above list. I’m not sure if 4 untargeted discard is enough but you can draw into it easier with 4 of them and 4 Loam. I cut the Bloodrite and Masticore both because in response to Path you can Steppe yourself or in a pinch sac to Miren.
[Also, I’ve personally kinda given up on the deck above as I think the Quillspike version is stronger but I still want to mention it in this because some may find it interesting.]
This still has a ways to go but the deck does a lot of things and all of them are very fun and powerful.
I also want to take a second to discuss the mana base. How well are every else’s working. I want to play a 24-land manabase that includes Dryad Arbor, 2 or 3 Oran-Reif, and can support the GB version of the deck. Green is always easy to get. You usually only need one green and you’re more than fine. I also require one black early on because of all of my discard (so good). The only problem I have ever facedis the endgame double black. Lastly, I want the option to play around Blood Moon, aka a few of each basic. Twilight Mire and Urborg are very good for the double black and you’re set if you draw one of those four. Urborg also allows you to cast discard early (and is sick with Raven’s Crime). The Twlight Mire is a little concern, and really only if you also want to play some number of land destruction. I ran four of these in addition to double Mutavault in Block/Standard/Extended so I could see how that might work here but any more than that worries me quite a bit. If you don’t have Mire of Urborg than you’ll need to draw two of either Swamp, Tomb, Verdant, (potentially Gilt-leaf and the new GB M10/Innastrad too). The main difference between my mana base and others is mine needs the turn 1 black more often and wanting to play Oran Rief. I recognize that I may need Ghost Quarter too so here’s a brainstorm manabase with GQ:
This base provides 12 sources of black on turn one, 8 requiring an average of 2 damage which is a little awkward and the main push for Gilt-Leaf is the no damage and being able to cast discard turn 1. I also don’t know if 12 (half) is enough to guarantee you’ll have it. Mathematically you should get one in the opener. My current manabase is the above with these changes:
-2 GC
-2 Tomb
+4 Gilt-leaf
Essentially, I have to cut GC (which I think is more essential than Oran) and I cut two O Tombs. I’m not sure this is right though. I’ll be testing both.
Last thing to mention is that I made room for a singleton Ewitt. Just seems too good with Green Sun. I took out an Inquisition but I now sort of run 5 extra discard spells (Ewitt+GreenSun recurring a disc in grave) as well as sometimes being able to Green Sun for a Necrotic Ooze or if I nat draw it I can sometimes recur the Druid, Shaman, Quill, or Finks that I need. All seems very good. May test adding another as everyone knows 2 Eternal Witness can be significantly stronger than just a singleton. Adding another would probably just bring me up to sixty-one cards which is fine with twenty-four lands.
Molten-Tail Masticore v. Bloodrite Invoker
MTM- Gives outs to Melira which is what puts it over the top for me. A number of times I have also found it to be relevant by itself which surprised me. In a situation where you have Quillspike and DD in the yard with Ooze out, this guy isn’t that bad and he gives you a way to clear some blockers out of the way or maybe a way to kill your own Shaman.
Bloodrite Invoker- This guy also responds to Path. He has the addition of being a sink for infinite mana without crazy Shaman comboing too though which is pretty cool. Unfortunately, he’s just bad on his own.
Anyways, here’s what I’m currently trying out
Next thing I want to develop is a sideboard.
I know I want 4 Plow Under. I think 1 Melira is good too. She has some anti synergy with some of the deck but if infect is big and I can GSZ for an out, I’m game. I know I want some number of Sudden Death, probably 3, for twin and maybe other matchups. 1 Big Game Hunter comes in for any Matchup where it isn’t a dead card. Next thins to look at are potential control outs and graveyard/artifact/enchantment-hate. Plow Unders does double duty against control. Against classic control decks, I know an early Lilliana Vess rocks but so does Plow. Another option is Vexing Shusher but there are a lot of situations where it’s bad and they can still counter the Green Sun that fetches it which means you have to commit more than one slot to it. I think it’s almost better in this format to just play into counters rather than play around them. With grave and art/enchantment there are two options, either play cards that are always good or use GSZ/Fauna targets that use less slots. Graveyard needs Crypt, Leyline, or Relic, or you can use Withered Wretch or Faerie Macabre. I think Leyline is just the best here. Graveyard hate is good verse Melira and decks playing P fire as well as random graveyard decks and Combo decks. I think 2-4 is fine to have. Next thing to look at is art/enchant hate. This stuff can potentially come in verse Twin and B Pod lists as well as decks packing Blood Moon and others running Crypt, Leyline, or Relic, which I think is the biggest application of this stuff. Obviously there’s Nature’s Claim which is always good. And quick and there’s no Misstep right now. For GSZ targets there’s Wickerbough Elder which is good and semi reusable though it maybe difficult to do so. Pridemage is easily splashable but you can only get one grave hate for each Pridemage you have. Primal Command also rids Artifacts and Enchantments as well as being good everywhere. I really like the card maindeck as a catch all but it’s worse than any other specific card, though does shine against RDW as a nice gain 11+ by fetching Finks. I do like how Nature’s Claim esq removal is reusable with GSZ too via Ewitt.
Here’s my first draft for a board, input welcome:
Another option is to cut a Shriekmaw from the main and move Big Game Hunter into that slot which frees up a slot in the board. The 4th Plow Under may also be cut for a Primal Command, allowing slightly more versatility. Murderous Redcap is probably too slow but is one of my favorite answers to a Magus of the Moon if it can't be played around. It also opens up the possibility that Scarland Thrinax is good in the Sideboard as a Melira package. I don't think that's worth is though. There was another card I was thinking about. I'll post here if I remember it.
Mogg Fanatic also combo's well with Kiki/Ooze shenanagins. In case you can't attack or they have a problematic critter onboard.
Oona's Prowler also gives you a Wild Mongrel style creature in the deck in case you have Kiki or Poppet in hand. Also gives you a possible T3 Vengevine combos.
INN:
Mindshrieker + Devoted Druid(gy) + Ooze could easily be abusable
Mirror-Mad Phantasm in the gy gives you protection for 1U
@sigar, I've actually sort of given up on the Devoted to Combo list and mainly worked on the Ooze and Vines "Dredgevine" lists. Since the Devoted to Combo list has too many Ooze Abuse slots, the Extended thread basically forgets that Rise of the Eldrazi exists, and Necrotic Ooze is 4 cmc and still often won't win the game the turn you land it, I feel it's not as viable as the "Dredgevine" versions.
There are no other Ooze Legacy threads since Survival of the Fittest got banned, but here are two Ooze Survival lists:
This deck gets incredibly worse with the banning of Green Sun's Zenith. It's probably worth it to just give up at this point but I wont. Zoo, it's worst matchup just lost all of it's competition. Discard into Fauna Shaman is still incredibly powerful. I've thought of adding Rite of Consumption plus Gemstone Caverns so that I can combo off turn 2 or 3 easier. Primal Command may become a good inclusion since it's good verse control and okay verse aggressive lists. I'm probably still not playing Life from the Loam and Raven's Crime though.
So it turns out this deck may have actually just gotten better. I now don't have to worry about Cloudpost decks. Cutting GSZ also made me realize that I should probably be running Spellskites.
Here's the list as it stands.
4 Spellskite may actually be too much and I'm not sure about the second Poppet. The list had an extra slot when I cut the fourth Inquisition for an Ewitt and then dropped Ewitt when GSZ got banned. That slot, as well as the fourth Spellskite slot (which would move to the sideboard), could be changed into any combination of Thornling, Inquisition, Primal Command, Profane Command, or something else. I may make additional sideboard adjustments, as well. Comment or PM with any ideas
Been trying a version of this casually online with Dredge as a means for getting my combo pieces into the graveyard. here's a sample deck list that i'm working on, it's by no means competitive but I haven't seen anyone using the dredge mechanic as a means for getting your combo together. I've had more success with it than the fauna shaman builds i tried out.
It basically just works like your usual dredge deck. As has been pointed out elsewhere Scholar+dredge in the ooze = milling yourself easy but the rest of the deck does that pretty well too. the drakmoors are in there for a couple reasons. I wanted 12 dredge cards but didn't want to sacrifice another non-land slot to get something that would only dredge for 3 anyways. Plus the drakmoors have helped me survive against some LD I've encountered and power out the black creatures that way. My mix of cards might be off but so far this has been a fun deck, I know it's not competitive but I think it's a decent place to start, considering everything else I've seen here has been fauna shaman related. Also this version allows you to just run UW and you can get whatever black mana you need from the drakmoors (or add more duals, your choice).
You can use any win con you want. The Flashback fireball from Inn works good too but I play on MTGO and using the hoarder/wretch combo to power out 23+ mana takes forever, so I just power out 4 mana and rez the maniac then use the ooze to draw out the rest of the library.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I haven't started up a sideboard yet.
So it turns out this deck may have actually just gotten better. I now don't have to worry about Cloudpost decks. Cutting GSZ also made me realize that I should probably be running Spellskites.
Here's the list as it stands.
4 Spellskite may actually be too much and I'm not sure about the second Poppet. The list had an extra slot when I cut the fourth Inquisition for an Ewitt and then dropped Ewitt when GSZ got banned. That slot, as well as the fourth Spellskite slot (which would move to the sideboard), could be changed into any combination of Thornling, Inquisition, Primal Command, Profane Command, or something else. I may make additional sideboard adjustments, as well. Comment or PM with any ideas
Corpse Connoisseur can help you put relevant guys into the graveyard. Twice, if you unearth him.
With the loss of GSZ, Fauna Shaman alone (or the Ooze using her ability once she's gone) isn't enough... more tutoring/card drawing is needed.
I'm thinking of building that deck with a blue splash for Forbidden Alchemy; that card is amazing in any deck that wants to dump stuff into the GY. I'm also looking for blue guys with nice activated abilities to add, but so far, I've only found Grimgrin, Corpse-Born and Civilized Scholar interesting enough.
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The card nearly every spoiled Magic player dreams of:
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
So, there was an Ooze combo deck at SCG Kansas City yesterday. Civilized Scholar is extremely interesting and could be a very good way to set up an Ooze combo.
The current list I have built up uses Primal Command as a means to tutor. Also, I'm really just not posting because there seems to be no support for this but I still have a lot of faith in this deck. Simply put, it's the best Kitchen Finks deck in the format, making it easier to get to the endgame verse Zoo and other aggro. If the deck gets to the endgame, it wins. It has endless threats, with combo and combat kills. This, backed with discard, gives it very good combo and control decks. Think about this list as a Rock deck with more synergy.
Current list:
I have a lot of faith in it as well. I think it has a lot of interesting edges and methods of approach. My favorite of course being the Civilized Scholar power-through-your-deck-until-you-find-your-combo idea.
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| Ad Nauseam
| Infect
Big Johnny.
L1 Judge
Holy moly. This might actually be an insta-kill! Let's see how this works:
With only two combo pieces required, just like the Triskelion-Phyrexian Devourer combo, this might be a winner! I'll update the OP with it (and emphasize its dependence on Thornling's haste-giving).
Forget synergy with other creatures; Legacy Ooze Combo sure didn't care that none of its other creatures entered the battlefield with +1/+1 counters on them.
I've read up more on Legacy Ooze Combo, and I found that part of its power was that it had a toolkit to stop other combo decks from going off before it did (e.g. Ethersworn Canonist); I'll try brewing a Junk Ooze Combo list.
Let me know if you feel it's worth it. As of right now, I prefer the more synergistic Necrotic Ooze shell that can win off the same number of initial combo cards (Necrotic Ooze in play + Devoted Druid + Fauna Shaman in the yard vs. Necrotic Ooze in play + Kiki-Jiki + Mogg Fanatic in the yard), but this is intriguing. I could see an argument for either, though.
L1 Judge
What do you guys think?
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Overgrown Tomb
1 Twilight Mire
1 Murmuring Bosk
1 Watery Grave
1 Breeding Pool
1 Temple Garden
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Forest
1 Swamp
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Sejiri Steppe
4 Hedron Crab
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Devoted Druid
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Necrotic Ooze
4 Knight of the Reliquary
2 Wall of Reverence
1 Quillspike
1 Grim Poppet
1 Thornling
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
3 Gifts Ungiven
2 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Noxious Revival
1 Post-Mortem Lunge
Oh, the previous Extended Necrotic Ooze deck used to play just 22 lands and had more mana-intensive cards like Acidic Slime. It is possible that it is correct to drop a land or a Wall of Reverence for another Green Sun's Zenith or recursion card, but I'm not comfortable enough with the manabase or the aggro match-up to do that yet. It is tempting to have the ability to Gifts Ungiven for Necrotic Ooze, Noxious Revival, Post-Mortem Lunge and Eternal Witness.
I've also added a Junk decklist and finally added sideboards to my working decklists! Eventually, I'm thinking of making this a primer (as soon as we figure out what colour Ooze Combo decks are viable, from Golgari to Junk to Jund to BUG).
I may as well reply to shawnofthesled here, too.
Since I found the Devoted Druid-Kiki-Jiki combo, I'm trying to figure out how you insta-win with that pile alone. I guess it's like this:
UUUJin-Gitaxias, Core AugurUUU
Modern
WWWHatebearsWWW
Wow, I guess the Kiki-Jiki insta-kill with Devoted Druid and Fauna Shaman in the dump alone does occur. Thanks for making me read the rules!
After each creature, I will ask if it needs haste, ask if it needs Fauna Shaman, and then talk a bit.
Thornling: Haste? Errr… It IS haste. Shaman? No.
One of Thornling’s strengths is that it’s really the only (or one of the only) creatures that doesn’t need Shaman to go off. With DD and Quill Oozable, you can generate infinite mana. Using that mana, you can cast Thornling or GSZ/Command for Thorn, kill it using it’s own ability then can give the infinitely big Ooze trample. Thorn seems built for the Necrotic Ooze as all of the abilities are potentially relevant in the right situation and it’s got five of them! I don’t think there’s much more to explain about this archetype staple but I figured I’d knock it out first, as it’s the most commonly agreed upon dude.
Grim Poppet: Haste? No. Shaman? Needed.
The biggest knock on this guy is that he’s almost completely useless without the combo- though he’s more useful than the uncastible Kiki-Jiki. Grim Poppet’s biggest draw is that his ability and DD’s first both don’t need haste which can buy you time verse agro and 12-post lists alike. The only deck it doesn’t stop is Meliria decks which are probably going to be popular. You don’t actually NEED Fauna Shaman as you could Thoughtsieze yourself which will be right sometimes but not always. If you get him and DD in the yard without Shaman than you can clear the way for a Shaman or Quill that you can tutor up and then kill. Fauna would only work if you had another creature in hand but grabbing and killing Quill with Poppet then swinging for infi into no blocks should get you there. Poppet can also kill a Shaman that’s in play, which is a common way to start chaining things and allows you to do anything you want, really.
Kiki-Jiki, Mirror-Breaker: Haste? Needed. Shaman? Needed.
KJ has the same Poppet problems when it comes to getting in the bin though it also can’t be cast unless there’s a Blood Moon in play or you just completely ruin the manabase. In play, like the Poppet, it also does nothing really. At least Thornling can swing for up to 7 each turn. Where KJ shines is his ability to avoid Path to Exile, one of the premier removal spells of the format. Kikki can combo with Druid and Mogg Fanatic, both that have the added bonus of being able to kill themselves. Because of the two card combinations possible with this, it’s also one of the premier options to Fauna chain through. Though, because of the fact that you need Fauna Shaman to get this going means that there are other options available, like Quillspike, that are more synergistic. The biggest factor in playing KJ is to dodge Path.
Molten-Tail Masticore: Haste? Usually. Fauna? Usually.
Take everything I’ve just said about KJ minus the uncastibility and the two card combo bit. Masticore wont come up really in any way other than having an Ooze that can do it all and needing to dodge Path. Regeneration is quite pointless but there are still a few differences between MTM and KJ. I’ll start with the drawback which is Leyline of Sanctity. Other than boarding in enchantment hate, Leyline of Sanctity does get you if they also have Path. MTM’s bonuses are huge. It’s a way to kill Melira which is huge as Poppet can’t and an infinite life combo trumps an infinite damage combo if it’s still active. With infinite too, MTM can sometimes just be cast for the win without haste or Shaman, which is why I said usually. Although you might not have five guys in the yard to win without Shaman (or four without the killable Ooze), sometimes he may just be able to clear blockers out of the way which is just as good as trample. The last thing to point out about this guy is his ability to kill Shaman, similarly to the Poppet.
L1 Judge
The issues:
Of these issues the last one was probably the largest nail in the coffin. If Ooze hit the field I wanted to win immediately with the least number of cards and mana required.
The New Combo:
The New List:
2 Scryb Ranger
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
2 Necrotic Ooze
1 Shriekmaw
1 Devoted Druid
1 Morselhoarder
1 Bloodrite Invoker
3 Kitchen Finks
1 Big Game Hunter
3 Thoughtseize
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Verdant Catacombs
1 Dryad Arbor
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Twilight Mire
This version added Kitchen Finks to help combat burn and zoo because it trades favorably with their 3 toughness creatures and gains life. I didn't like the 4 Oozes it was always too many and I preferred to just search for it. Big Game Hunter kills creatures Shriekmaw previously couldn't address.
I personally feel like a proactive strategy of aggro/combo is the best approach just like the more recent legacy survival decks.
That being said I'm considering the use of a a good b/w/g manabase to add horizon canopy, path to exile, and tutorable hate from the sideboard such as Teeg and Aven Mindcensor.
As another aside I don't believe grim poppet belongs in this deck at all anymore. He is a 7 mana creature with a pointless combo. Just win with Bloodrite Invoker.
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
3 Oran-Rief, the Vastwood
3 Twilight Mire
4 Gilt-Leaf Palace
4 Swamp
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sorceries: 13
1 Primal Command
3 Inquistition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtsieze
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Grim Popper
1 Thornling
2 Shriekmaw
3 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Quillspike
2 Murderous Redcap
1 Wickerbough Elder
4 Leyline of the Void
4 Plow Under
4 Vexing Shusher
L1 Judge
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Oran Rief
1 Sejeri Steppe
1 Arena
2 Ghost Quarter
17 others
4 Thoughtseize
3 Raven’s Crime
3 Life from the Loam
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Necrotic Ooze
3 Devoted Druid
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Quillspike
1 Moarselhoarder
1 Bloodrite Invoker
1 Grim Poppet
1 more
So here we still have the same discard package and the Shaman to set up combos but I’ve changed the secondary plan and it is equally synergistic. Loam allows you to mill yourself similarly to Hedron Crab while giving you access to more combo pieces there and more lands to pump your Knight. Raven’s Crime allows you to proactively discard as well once it’s online and can dump accidently drawn combo pieces. The deck is currently 59 cards. Not sure what that last slot should be. I haven’t tested with this at all- I mostly just theory craft. The 60th card is either another Ooze, Loam, Druid, Quill, or Finks or you could add the Wurm Harvest, Big Game Hunter, or Shriekmaw- I’m not sure if you need it.
This list is better verse combo (only marginally and maybe worse without Inquisition) and control but it loses a LOT of it’s game verse agro. Still, I think it’s the second most powerful shell for this archetype and maybe some of you have ideas on how to improve it. Junk is my personal play preference but it’s also always going to be well positioned.
EDIT: I forgot about Thornling which probably warrants inclusion. I don't think you need Masticore here as you have the Invoker kill.
L1 Judge
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Oran Rief
1 Sejeri Steppe
1 Arena
2 Ghost Quarter
1 Miren, the Moaning Well
16 others
4 Raven’s Crime
4 Life from the Loam
1 Wurm Harvest
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Knight of the Reliquary
3 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
2 Kitchen Finks
1 Quillspike
1 Grim Poppet
1 Thornling
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Shriekmaw
I might think about something like this rather than the above list. I’m not sure if 4 untargeted discard is enough but you can draw into it easier with 4 of them and 4 Loam. I cut the Bloodrite and Masticore both because in response to Path you can Steppe yourself or in a pinch sac to Miren.
[Also, I’ve personally kinda given up on the deck above as I think the Quillspike version is stronger but I still want to mention it in this because some may find it interesting.]
This still has a ways to go but the deck does a lot of things and all of them are very fun and powerful.
I also want to take a second to discuss the mana base. How well are every else’s working. I want to play a 24-land manabase that includes Dryad Arbor, 2 or 3 Oran-Reif, and can support the GB version of the deck. Green is always easy to get. You usually only need one green and you’re more than fine. I also require one black early on because of all of my discard (so good). The only problem I have ever facedis the endgame double black. Lastly, I want the option to play around Blood Moon, aka a few of each basic. Twilight Mire and Urborg are very good for the double black and you’re set if you draw one of those four. Urborg also allows you to cast discard early (and is sick with Raven’s Crime). The Twlight Mire is a little concern, and really only if you also want to play some number of land destruction. I ran four of these in addition to double Mutavault in Block/Standard/Extended so I could see how that might work here but any more than that worries me quite a bit. If you don’t have Mire of Urborg than you’ll need to draw two of either Swamp, Tomb, Verdant, (potentially Gilt-leaf and the new GB M10/Innastrad too). The main difference between my mana base and others is mine needs the turn 1 black more often and wanting to play Oran Rief. I recognize that I may need Ghost Quarter too so here’s a brainstorm manabase with GQ:
1 Urborg
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Oran-Reif the Vastwood
3 Swamp
3 Forest
4 Overgrown Tomb
4 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
This base provides 12 sources of black on turn one, 8 requiring an average of 2 damage which is a little awkward and the main push for Gilt-Leaf is the no damage and being able to cast discard turn 1. I also don’t know if 12 (half) is enough to guarantee you’ll have it. Mathematically you should get one in the opener. My current manabase is the above with these changes:
-2 GC
-2 Tomb
+4 Gilt-leaf
Essentially, I have to cut GC (which I think is more essential than Oran) and I cut two O Tombs. I’m not sure this is right though. I’ll be testing both.
Last thing to mention is that I made room for a singleton Ewitt. Just seems too good with Green Sun. I took out an Inquisition but I now sort of run 5 extra discard spells (Ewitt+GreenSun recurring a disc in grave) as well as sometimes being able to Green Sun for a Necrotic Ooze or if I nat draw it I can sometimes recur the Druid, Shaman, Quill, or Finks that I need. All seems very good. May test adding another as everyone knows 2 Eternal Witness can be significantly stronger than just a singleton. Adding another would probably just bring me up to sixty-one cards which is fine with twenty-four lands.
Molten-Tail Masticore v. Bloodrite Invoker
MTM- Gives outs to Melira which is what puts it over the top for me. A number of times I have also found it to be relevant by itself which surprised me. In a situation where you have Quillspike and DD in the yard with Ooze out, this guy isn’t that bad and he gives you a way to clear some blockers out of the way or maybe a way to kill your own Shaman.
Bloodrite Invoker- This guy also responds to Path. He has the addition of being a sink for infinite mana without crazy Shaman comboing too though which is pretty cool. Unfortunately, he’s just bad on his own.
Anyways, here’s what I’m currently trying out
1 Urborg
2 Ghost Quarter
2 Oran-Reif the Vastwood
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Swamp
3 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Green Sun’s Zenith
4 Thoughtseize
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Grim Popper
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Thornling
2 Shriekmaw
3 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Quillspike
Next thing I want to develop is a sideboard.
I know I want 4 Plow Under. I think 1 Melira is good too. She has some anti synergy with some of the deck but if infect is big and I can GSZ for an out, I’m game. I know I want some number of Sudden Death, probably 3, for twin and maybe other matchups. 1 Big Game Hunter comes in for any Matchup where it isn’t a dead card. Next thins to look at are potential control outs and graveyard/artifact/enchantment-hate. Plow Unders does double duty against control. Against classic control decks, I know an early Lilliana Vess rocks but so does Plow. Another option is Vexing Shusher but there are a lot of situations where it’s bad and they can still counter the Green Sun that fetches it which means you have to commit more than one slot to it. I think it’s almost better in this format to just play into counters rather than play around them. With grave and art/enchantment there are two options, either play cards that are always good or use GSZ/Fauna targets that use less slots. Graveyard needs Crypt, Leyline, or Relic, or you can use Withered Wretch or Faerie Macabre. I think Leyline is just the best here. Graveyard hate is good verse Melira and decks playing P fire as well as random graveyard decks and Combo decks. I think 2-4 is fine to have. Next thing to look at is art/enchant hate. This stuff can potentially come in verse Twin and B Pod lists as well as decks packing Blood Moon and others running Crypt, Leyline, or Relic, which I think is the biggest application of this stuff. Obviously there’s Nature’s Claim which is always good. And quick and there’s no Misstep right now. For GSZ targets there’s Wickerbough Elder which is good and semi reusable though it maybe difficult to do so. Pridemage is easily splashable but you can only get one grave hate for each Pridemage you have. Primal Command also rids Artifacts and Enchantments as well as being good everywhere. I really like the card maindeck as a catch all but it’s worse than any other specific card, though does shine against RDW as a nice gain 11+ by fetching Finks. I do like how Nature’s Claim esq removal is reusable with GSZ too via Ewitt.
Here’s my first draft for a board, input welcome:
1 Big Game Hunter
3 Leyline of the Void
1 Melira, Sylvok Outcast
3 Nature’s Claim
4 Plow Under
2 Sudden Death
1 Wickerbough Elder
Another option is to cut a Shriekmaw from the main and move Big Game Hunter into that slot which frees up a slot in the board. The 4th Plow Under may also be cut for a Primal Command, allowing slightly more versatility. Murderous Redcap is probably too slow but is one of my favorite answers to a Magus of the Moon if it can't be played around. It also opens up the possibility that Scarland Thrinax is good in the Sideboard as a Melira package. I don't think that's worth is though. There was another card I was thinking about. I'll post here if I remember it.
L1 Judge
Oona's Prowler also gives you a Wild Mongrel style creature in the deck in case you have Kiki or Poppet in hand. Also gives you a possible T3 Vengevine combos.
INN:
Mindshrieker + Devoted Druid(gy) + Ooze could easily be abusable
Mirror-Mad Phantasm in the gy gives you protection for 1U
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
There are no other Ooze Legacy threads since Survival of the Fittest got banned, but here are two Ooze Survival lists:
3 Bayou
2 Forest
1 Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Polluted Delta
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
3 Verdant Catacombs
Creatures
2 Basking Rootwalla
4 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Triskelion
3 Vengevine
1 Wonder
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Therapy
2 Daze
4 Force of Will
3 Intuition
4 Survival of the Fittest
1 Dryad Arbor
3 Faerie Macabre
2 Krosan Grip
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
3 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
1 Shriekmaw
3 Spell Pierce
4 Bayou
3 Forest
4 Savannah
1 Scrubland
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Windswept Heath
Creatures
3 Basking Rootwalla
3 Birds of Paradise
4 Fauna Shaman
1 Memnite
3 Necrotic Ooze
1 Phyrexian Devourer
1 Quirion Ranger
1 Shriekmaw
1 Triskelion
4 Vengevine
4 Wild Mongrel
1 Wispmare
4 Enlightened Tutor
4 Survival of the Fittest
4 Thoughtseize
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Big Game Hunter
1 Choke
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Extirpate
1 Faerie Macabre
1 Gaddock Teeg
3 Nature's Claim
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Seal of Primordium
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Umezawa's Jitte
Yeah, losing a 2-card combo that didn't need Haste to win sucks.
L1 Judge
Here's the list as it stands.
1 Urborg
2 Oran-Reif the Vastwood
2 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
3 Ghost Quarter
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Swamp
3 Twilight Mire
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sorceries: 7
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Thornling
2 Grim Poppet
2 Shriekmaw
3 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Spellskite
4 Quillspike
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
4 Plow Under
3 Sudden Death
1 Wickerbough Elder
boom
4 Spellskite may actually be too much and I'm not sure about the second Poppet. The list had an extra slot when I cut the fourth Inquisition for an Ewitt and then dropped Ewitt when GSZ got banned. That slot, as well as the fourth Spellskite slot (which would move to the sideboard), could be changed into any combination of Thornling, Inquisition, Primal Command, Profane Command, or something else. I may make additional sideboard adjustments, as well. Comment or PM with any ideas
L1 Judge
3 Necrotic Ooze
Draw/Dredge Combo:
3 Civilized Scholar
4 Magus of the Bazaar
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
2 Morselhoarder
2 Cinderhaze Wretch
2 Thornling
Win Con:
1 Laboratory Maniac
4 Desperate Ravings
4 Ideas Unbound
Rez Spell:
4 Unburial Rites
Land to include:
4 Dakmor Salvage
It basically just works like your usual dredge deck. As has been pointed out elsewhere Scholar+dredge in the ooze = milling yourself easy but the rest of the deck does that pretty well too. the drakmoors are in there for a couple reasons. I wanted 12 dredge cards but didn't want to sacrifice another non-land slot to get something that would only dredge for 3 anyways. Plus the drakmoors have helped me survive against some LD I've encountered and power out the black creatures that way. My mix of cards might be off but so far this has been a fun deck, I know it's not competitive but I think it's a decent place to start, considering everything else I've seen here has been fauna shaman related. Also this version allows you to just run UW and you can get whatever black mana you need from the drakmoors (or add more duals, your choice).
You can use any win con you want. The Flashback fireball from Inn works good too but I play on MTGO and using the hoarder/wretch combo to power out 23+ mana takes forever, so I just power out 4 mana and rez the maniac then use the ooze to draw out the rest of the library.
Any suggestions would be greatly appreciated. I haven't started up a sideboard yet.
Corpse Connoisseur can help you put relevant guys into the graveyard. Twice, if you unearth him.
With the loss of GSZ, Fauna Shaman alone (or the Ooze using her ability once she's gone) isn't enough... more tutoring/card drawing is needed.
I'm thinking of building that deck with a blue splash for Forbidden Alchemy; that card is amazing in any deck that wants to dump stuff into the GY. I'm also looking for blue guys with nice activated abilities to add, but so far, I've only found Grimgrin, Corpse-Born and Civilized Scholar interesting enough.
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
Current list:
1 Urborg
3 Gilt-Leaf Palace
3 Overgrown Tomb
3 Forest
3 Swamp
3 Twilight Mire
4 Oran-Reif the Vastwood
4 Verdant Catacombs
Sorceries: 7
2 Primal Command
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Thoughtseize
1 Molten-Tail Masticore
1 Thornling
1 Grim Poppet
1 Shriekmaw
3 Necrotic Ooze
4 Devoted Druid
4 Fauna Shaman
4 Kitchen Finks
4 Spellskite
4 Quillspike
1 Grim Poppet
3 Nature's Claim
1 Primal Command
1 Shriekmaw
2 Sudden Death
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Thornling
3 Vexing Shusher
1 Withered Wretch
L1 Judge