The two combos speak for themselves: Pili + Architect can go off on turn 3, but it's easier to disrupt, as it requires two creatures, one of which must survive until summoning sickness wear off (also, a flying blocker will prevent me from going off on T3). Golem + Deathmantle takes longer to pull off, but it's harder to disrupt (it usually requires direct removal aimed at the Deathmantle or instant GY hate). The latter also has the added bonus of ensuring my creatures will never hit the graveyard and stay there.
I could be using only one of them, but using both makes me less vulnerable to combo hosers such as Memoricide and Surgical Extraction.
As for protecting the combo, there's Sun Titan, a huge body who gets all pieces except Composite Golem back from the GY straight onto the battlefield, and Academy Ruins for all pieces but the Architect. The Titan is also a respectable creature on his own, and the Deathmantle makes him an 8/8 guy with vigilance and intimidate that keeps coming back from the dead as long as I keep 4 mana available.
Blue Sun's Zenith is the main finisher, and the deck's mana acceleration makes it a decent tool for digging for the combo. Emrakul is a secondary finisher, while also being a potential shield against random milling strategies (it saved me from it once :p). Azure Mage and Staff of Domination, while not being win cons by themselves (though the Staff can give me infinite life, thus putting me out of killing range forever against most decks :D), they can draw for the finishers once I get infinite mana, or can work as mana sinks (both can also be brought back by the Titan, and the Staff can be Fabricated as well).
For board control, I have Oblivion Ring and Oblivion Stone; the O-Stone slot used to be a 4-mana creature-sweeping sorcery-kind of spell, but I like how the Stone can hit enchantments, artifacts and PWs as well, not to mention it's an artifact and costs 3 (Titan/Fabricate again :D). The mana costs for casting AND popping it are not much of an issue either, thanks to all the mana acceleration this deck packs.
For last, but not least, there are the mana accelerators: Everflowing Chalice and Solemn Simulacrum, the latter of which also provides early blocking and CA. The Architect also doubles as acceleration most of the time.
Issues with the deck so far:
-No T1 plays and few relevant T2 plays (usually "ramping" through Chalice or Pili-Pala) = very vulnerable against very fast decks;
-Lack of cheap ways to dig into the combo (still need to test stuff like Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions);
-No way to interact with instants and sorceries. This is the biggest issue, IMO; I know I should be running countermagic somewhere here, but I'm finding it hard to make room for them, let alone in a high enough number to make them relevant. Maybe I'll try a set of Remands and/or Muddle the Mixtures, though.
Sideboard is still in development.
A bit (ok, maybe TOO MUCH) slow and frail to be competitive, but overall, I find this deck very fun to play with; it can pull of some explosive wins out of nowhere if left unchecked.
This is extremely creative. Great job on this. I do have one question though, if you have the ability to produce unlimited mana of any color, why aren't you running cards like Banefire, Fireball, and Red Sun's Zenith?
This is extremely creative. Great job on this. I do have one question though, if you have the ability to produce unlimited mana of any color, why aren't you running cards like Banefire, Fireball, and Red Sun's Zenith?
Thanks!
As for your question, I didn't want to run win conditions that would become dead cards if I failed to assemble the combo; in order to run X-cc burn spells, I'd need to splash for red. And if I do have the combo, the Blue Zenith is just as effective as any one of them. Banefire has the argument of being uncounterable, but I'm not worried about my win cons being vulnerable to countermagic, because if the opponent DID have countermagic, chances are I wouldn't be able to assemble the combo in the first place.
Note: indeed, Emrakul is a dead card most of the time, but he could theoretically be hardcast in an actual game even without the combo, with the right cards and if the game draws out long enough. Without red mana, I couldn't say the same about the burn spells (I could add a random Mountain for the Simulacrum to get, but I don't think it's worth it).
I think that even though the Composite Golem combo costs a little more, it's the better of the two only because once you have both on the board, it's instant. The Architect/Scarecrow combo requires one or both to survive an entire turn unless they're given haste somehow.
If going for the Golem, then you have Treasure Mage to find him, although it's the same as Fabricate, it at least gives you a blocker which will probably be necessary when trying to stay alive long enough to combo out. We'd be in blue most likely no matter what combo we ran...so what about a teachings shell to get the win-cons. Mystical Teachings gives us instant speed search for Blue Sun's Zenith and Comet Storm.
Hardest part would be staying alive long enough to ramp up to Composite Golem mana. From there, everything's instant speed as long as you at least had a Teachings in hand...unless I'm missing some details.
EDIT: I guess they could destroy the Deathmantle with the trigger on the stack...but if they have instant speed artifact removal, then they could kill Pili Pala also.
If the OP discovered the Golem combo, good catch, I hadn't heard of that yet!
EDIT: I thought more about this on the way to work this morning...I think you'd almost need Grand Architect in here just for the ramp aspect. Etherium Sculptor, Grand Architect, tap Sculptor to lay down Nim Deathmantle and a Spellskite, Treasure Mage getting Composite Golem, tap all to play golem, combo. I know that's slightly on the side of the perfect hand argument, but regardless that is a turn three win and there's plenty of support for that. Plus you don't need the Spellskite...it just helps protect your guys and/or your Deathmantle.
I think that even though the Composite Golem combo costs a little more, it's the better of the two only because once you have both on the board, it's instant. The Architect/Scarecrow combo requires one or both to survive an entire turn unless they're given haste somehow.
If going for the Golem, then you have Treasure Mage to find him, although it's the same as Fabricate, it at least gives you a blocker which will probably be necessary when trying to stay alive long enough to combo out. We'd be in blue most likely no matter what combo we ran...so what about a teachings shell to get the win-cons. Mystical Teachings gives us instant speed search for Blue Sun's Zenith and Comet Storm.
Hardest part would be staying alive long enough to ramp up to Composite Golem mana. From there, everything's instant speed as long as you at least had a Teachings in hand...unless I'm missing some details.
EDIT: I guess they could destroy the Deathmantle with the trigger on the stack...but if they have instant speed artifact removal, then they could kill Pili Pala also.
If the OP discovered the Golem combo, good catch, I hadn't heard of that yet!
No, I didn't discover that combo; it's been there for a while now.
It's the combo I like more, too. In fact, the first version of the deck didn't have Pili; the Architect was there just for acceleration.
I used to have Treasure Mage in the deck, but there used to be more 6+cc artifacts for it to fetch as well; now that the Golem is the only one, I don't think keeping the Mage is a good idea. Mystical Teachings isn't very good for that same reason (very few instants and no flash cards).
However, I'm cutting the Azure Mage and 1-2 other cards for 2-3 copies of Drift of Phantasms; it's clearly the second best tutor here, next to Fabricate: it can fetch not only the Architect AND BSZ, but also O-Ring, O-Stone and the Staff. When tutoring is not necessary, it also makes a decent blocker (0/5 flier) and is great alongside the Architect (a 1/6 flier that can both block and tap for :2mana:). Oh, and it's Titan-recurrable to boot.
You're right, the correct time to break the Golem/Deathmantle combo (with either artifact removal or GY hate) is when the Deathmantle trigger is on the stack. Leyline of the Void also shuts it down, and Stony Silence shuts the ENTIRE deck down.
EDIT: I thought more about this on the way to work this morning...I think you'd almost need Grand Architect in here just for the ramp aspect. Etherium Sculptor, Grand Architect, tap Sculptor to lay down Nim Deathmantle and a Spellskite, Treasure Mage getting Composite Golem, tap all to play golem, combo. I know that's slightly on the side of the perfect hand argument, but regardless that is a turn three win and there's plenty of support for that. Plus you don't need the Spellskite...it just helps protect your guys and/or your Deathmantle.
Hmm... I'm considering Spellskite on the SB against stuff like Exarch-Twin and potential opposing artifact hate (especially those Ancient Grudges that sit on the SBs).
When I used the Golem/Deathmantle combo alone, I did exactly as you said: Sculptor for extra accel, Mage for the Golem. It did work on the paper, but when I pit the deck against real-life opponents, it became evident that I was focusing too much on comboing as fast as I could, while neglecting survivability.
Anyway, with what you said above, it's combo on T4, not T3; a T3 combo with Golem + Deathmantle would require green:
-T1: Forest, Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch;
-T2: Island, Grand Architect, tap it for Nim Deathmantle;
-T3: Land, Composite Golem, combo.
Just curious, but what 6+ CMC artifacts did you have in there?
I can see a couple Wurmcoils being solid here.
And I see what you mean by the teachings argument. I just never liked the Transmute thing. If you could do it as an instant, it'd be so much better so you didn't have to do it on your turn. And if you're worried about things such as Stony Silence, Leyline of the Void, etc, then a teachings toolbox could have all the spells necessary to disrupt any combo hate. It would also help to go off on turn three with the Pili Pala combo even if you were attacking into a lethal block...you could combo off with an Architect on the board. Transmute won't allow you to do that. Plus you could flashback teachings to get two cards that same turn. Counterspell backup maybe?
There's a couple ways to take this deck...I think I'm coming back around to the idea of implementing both combos here. I like this concept.
Just curious, but what 6+ CMC artifacts did you have in there?
I can see a couple Wurmcoils being solid here.
And I see what you mean by the teachings argument. I just never liked the Transmute thing. If you could do it as an instant, it'd be so much better so you didn't have to do it on your turn. And if you're worried about things such as Stony Silence, Leyline of the Void, etc, then a teachings toolbox could have all the spells necessary to disrupt any combo hate. It would also help to go off on turn three with the Pili Pala combo even if you were attacking into a lethal block...you could combo off with an Architect on the board. Transmute won't allow you to do that. Plus you could flashback teachings to get two cards that same turn. Counterspell backup maybe?
There's a couple ways to take this deck...I think I'm coming back around to the idea of implementing both combos here. I like this concept.
Yeah, I had Wurmcoils, plus a singleton Blightsteel Colossus as another win con (back then, the deck had enough accel to get a T5 Colossus WITHOUT the combo).
I dropped the wurms when I changed the deck from U/B to W/U; Sun Titan took the spot when I realized how powerful he was here, with 75% of the combo pieces and even the removal and some other stuff being cards he could "reanimate".
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imo the composite golem + nim deathmantle seems too mana intensive. Pili-Pala can go off turn 3-4 unmolested to the surprise of bewildered opponents who didnt think of pili-pala as threat lol
imo the composite golem + nim deathmantle seems too mana intensive. Pili-Pala can go off turn 3-4 unmolested to the surprise of bewildered opponents who didnt think of pili-pala as threat lol
I saw your thread before I made this one.
Yes, I agree that 8 mana seems to be too much at first, but it's doable with proper ramping. In my deck, for example:
T1: Land;
T2: Land, Everflowing Chalice;
T3: Land, Grand Architect, tap it for :2mana:, Nim Deathmantle;
T4: if the Architect is still around, Composite Golem (don't even need the 4th land drop), combo. If not, the combo may still go off on T5 if no land drops are missed.
As for the Pili-Pala going off unmolested, you'd be surprised at how often it DOESN'T go unmolested; last saturday, my opponent didn't know what the Pili was for, yet he cast a Lightning Bolt on it, just because it had flying, LMAO.
In other matches, the Pili also ate removal/counterspell more often than not, especially when the opponent had already witnessed (or had been destroyed by) the combo and knew what was coming next, or if s/he is playing heavy aggro and wants potential blockers out of the way.
Nonetheless, I agree with you: there are still a lot of players who completely ignore an early (or even late, sometimes) Pili; that, actually, is the main selling point of the Pili/Architect combo. Once the opposition is fully aware of it, the Pili won't survive until the next untap step, unless the opponents run out of answers.
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Yes, I agree that 8 mana seems to be too much at first, but it's doable with proper ramping. In my deck, for example:
T1: Land;
T2: Land, Everflowing Chalice;
T3: Land, Grand Architect, tap it for :2mana:, Nim Deathmantle;
T4: if the Architect is still around, Composite Golem (don't even need the 4th land drop), combo. If not, the combo may still go off on T5 if no land drops are missed.
As for the Pili-Pala going off unmolested, you'd be surprised at how often it DOESN'T go unmolested; last saturday, my opponent didn't know what the Pili was for, yet he cast a Lightning Bolt on it, just because it had flying, LMAO.
In other matches, the Pili also ate removal/counterspell more often than not, especially when the opponent had already witnessed (or had been destroyed by) the combo and knew what was coming next, or if s/he is playing heavy aggro and wants potential blockers out of the way.
Nonetheless, I agree with you: there are still a lot of players who completely ignore an early (or even late, sometimes) Pili; that, actually, is the main selling point of the Pili/Architect combo. Once the opposition is fully aware of it, the Pili won't survive until the next untap step, unless the opponents run out of answers.
True. Thousand Year Elixer Helps though. Third turn Elixer, fourth turn drop architect, tap itself for pili, use one blue to paint, and it's combo off. I've been using apostle's blessing and even gigadrowse as countermeasure to protect the combo. Muddle the mixture keeps searching for more Pili-Pala copies.
I really do like the idea of another infinite mana engine, since the pili-architect shell is very flexible
I run with an all blue version, I scrapped this together a while back ago but after seeing your pili-pala, I updated it. Nice combo! http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/nim-golem/
It says legacy due to Dissipate showing up as a Mirage card. The nice thing with the double infinite mana engine is that if you surprise your opponent with the 1st on game 1, he/she may not be expecting the 2nd mana engine if he/she sideboarded in hate for the 1st one
You can probably drop to an all blue mana base which makes it a bit easier. The Sun Titans are nice for recursion but why run with that when you can use a Noxious Revival at the end of their turn? Pact of Negation is excellent when you combo off and you are tapped out. It is a bit pricey though.
Great idea! I hadn't thought of that when this deck was U/B, not only because I lacked enough copies of Tezz (I have only one and don't use proxies much :p), but also because I wasn't using the Staff at the time.
I guess it's time to go get more copies.
I still don't want to give up on white, though, so maybe I'll try an Esper (W/U/B) build.
Edit: also, for the monoU version, maybe a couple of Vedalken Aethermage could tutor for Architect/Azure Mage? (better than drift of phantasm, since it can grab the mage too)
I had thought of that at first... but then, sadly, I saw that the Architect is not a wizard (it's an artificer), so the Aethermage can't fetch it.
Just so I'm getting this straight...you make the Staff an artifact creature with Tezz, then make the Staff which is now a creature blue with Architect's ability, then tap the Staff to add 2 and untap it for 1 with its own ability? So you make a ton of colorless mana that can only be used to cast artifacts or on activated abilities of artifacts? So I guess you would just sink all that into the Staff's other abilities?
So it's not really infinite mana as much as it's another win-con by gaining infinite life or a way of drawing your deck until you get the cards you want. I guess this really adds to the Golem/Deathmantle combo more than the Pili Pala one.
So it's not really infinite mana as much as it's another win-con by gaining infinite life or a way of drawing your deck until you get the cards you want. I guess this really adds to the Golem/Deathmantle combo more than the Pili Pala one.
The Pili Pala combo requires Grand Architect so it adds to both. I think a U/B version is very strong, I'll think about this one for a bit.
The Pili Pala combo requires Grand Architect so it adds to both. I think a U/B version is very strong, I'll think about this one for a bit.
Yeah but I was looking at it from the viewpoint of once you draw your whole deck with the Staff combo, the Golem/Deathmantle combo benefits the most since it can happen all in that same turn. The Pili Pala combo requires you to play Pili Pala and then wait a turn for it to lose summoning sickness.
That's of course considering that you don't already have an active Pili Pala in play.
But it still works. Architect can make it a blue creature.
Yeah but I was looking at it from the viewpoint of once you draw your whole deck with the Staff combo, the Golem/Deathmantle combo benefits the most since it can happen all in that same turn. The Pili Pala combo requires you to play Pili Pala and then wait a turn for it to lose summoning sickness.
That's of course considering that you don't already have an active Pili Pala in play.
Actually, Tezzeret also has a small synergy with Pili-Pala; a 1/1 flying dude is not very impressive on his own, but a 5/5 flying dude is usually something the opponent should be worried about.
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Actually, Tezzeret also has a small synergy with Pili-Pala; a 1/1 flying dude is not very impressive on his own, but a 5/5 flying dude is usually something the opponent should be worried about.
Very true. I can see a UB version with Tezz. Black would give access to hand disruption and some decent spot removal.
Also, as another win-con with the Golem combo, what do you think about Disciple of the Vault? Doesn't require another spell to cast from the infinite mana if he's in play as also has synergy with the rest of the deck.
Also I'm going to throw this out there...Skill Borrower. She's blue, an artifact and can be your Golem or Pili Pala 5x-8x. Especially if we have library manipulation, she could be at least a consideration.
Very true. I can see a UB version with Tezz. Black would give access to hand disruption and some decent spot removal.
Also, as another win-con with the Golem combo, what do you think about Disciple of the Vault? Doesn't require another spell to cast from the infinite mana if he's in play as also has synergy with the rest of the deck.
Also I'm going to throw this out there...Skill Borrower. She's blue, an artifact and can be your Golem or Pili Pala 5x-8x. Especially if we have library manipulation, she could be at least a consideration.
I wouldn't get too excited...as much as I'd like to take credit for the suggestion, this just feels like one of those "looked good on paper" ideas. Hopefully not though since I have a playset plus a foil
Seriously though this definitely needs testing before we'll know if it's good or not.
I think I'll sleeve up a UB list soon and see what happens.
EDIT: just realized how great the synergy between Skill Borrower and Academy Ruins is. I assume we'd be running at least 1 or 2 copies of the Ruins anyway.
I was thinking... what about a singleton Thousand year elixir? It is fetchable with fabricate, with blue tezzeret (if you run him instead of the UB one, which is still a good choice), AND you can then run a single Master Transmuter and replace the eldrazi with a blightsteel colossus.
But maybe this is dispersing the deck too much.
The problem with the Elixir is that Pili-Pala is the only creature who will actually benefit from it; the Architect can tap (itself and other creatures) for mana regardless of summoning sickness, and the other creatures do not tap for their abilities. The Elixir is better in a deck with a heavier focus on creature activated abilities that causes them to tap (such as Necrotic Ooze decks).
The Transmuter + Elixir is cool, though; before I made this deck, I was running a modified version Jacob Van Luren's Extended deck, that used that strategy (you can see the deck here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/129)
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The problem with the Elixir is that Pili-Pala is the only creature who will actually benefit from it; the Architect can tap (itself and other creatures) for mana regardless of summoning sickness, and the other creatures do not tap for their abilities. The Elixir is better in a deck with a heavier focus on creature activated abilities that causes them to tap (such as Necrotic Ooze decks).
The Transmuter + Elixir is cool, though; before I made this deck, I was running a modified version Jacob Van Luren's Extended deck, that used that strategy (you can see the deck here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/129)
I agree, I was never a fan of the Elixir even when I had a T2 Transmuter deck. It always seemed underwhelming. Plus this deck is quickly filling up with three drops.
Decklist coming soon...as soon as I can get done this pile of work I have on my desk
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Pili-Pala + Grand Architect
Composite Golem + Nim Deathmantle
I'm currently attempting to put together a deck that could run both with a reasonable degree of consistence.
Here's my current build:
5 Plains
9 Island
4 Glacial Fortress
4 Mystic Gate
2 Academy Ruins
Creatures (17)
3 Sun Titan
1 Azure Mage
4 Grand Architect
2 Pili-Pala
4 Solemn Simulacrum
2 Composite Golem
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Fabricate
3 Blue Sun's Zenith
4 Everflowing Chalice
2 Nim Deathmantle
3 Oblivion Stone
1 Staff of Domination
The two combos speak for themselves: Pili + Architect can go off on turn 3, but it's easier to disrupt, as it requires two creatures, one of which must survive until summoning sickness wear off (also, a flying blocker will prevent me from going off on T3). Golem + Deathmantle takes longer to pull off, but it's harder to disrupt (it usually requires direct removal aimed at the Deathmantle or instant GY hate). The latter also has the added bonus of ensuring my creatures will never hit the graveyard and stay there.
I could be using only one of them, but using both makes me less vulnerable to combo hosers such as Memoricide and Surgical Extraction.
All combo pieces can be Fabricated, except for Grand Architect; I'm thinking of adding a couple of Drift of Phantasms for that.
As for protecting the combo, there's Sun Titan, a huge body who gets all pieces except Composite Golem back from the GY straight onto the battlefield, and Academy Ruins for all pieces but the Architect. The Titan is also a respectable creature on his own, and the Deathmantle makes him an 8/8 guy with vigilance and intimidate that keeps coming back from the dead as long as I keep 4 mana available.
Blue Sun's Zenith is the main finisher, and the deck's mana acceleration makes it a decent tool for digging for the combo. Emrakul is a secondary finisher, while also being a potential shield against random milling strategies (it saved me from it once :p). Azure Mage and Staff of Domination, while not being win cons by themselves (though the Staff can give me infinite life, thus putting me out of killing range forever against most decks :D), they can draw for the finishers once I get infinite mana, or can work as mana sinks (both can also be brought back by the Titan, and the Staff can be Fabricated as well).
For board control, I have Oblivion Ring and Oblivion Stone; the O-Stone slot used to be a 4-mana creature-sweeping sorcery-kind of spell, but I like how the Stone can hit enchantments, artifacts and PWs as well, not to mention it's an artifact and costs 3 (Titan/Fabricate again :D). The mana costs for casting AND popping it are not much of an issue either, thanks to all the mana acceleration this deck packs.
For last, but not least, there are the mana accelerators: Everflowing Chalice and Solemn Simulacrum, the latter of which also provides early blocking and CA. The Architect also doubles as acceleration most of the time.
Issues with the deck so far:
-No T1 plays and few relevant T2 plays (usually "ramping" through Chalice or Pili-Pala) = very vulnerable against very fast decks;
-Lack of cheap ways to dig into the combo (still need to test stuff like Sleight of Hand and Serum Visions);
-No way to interact with instants and sorceries. This is the biggest issue, IMO; I know I should be running countermagic somewhere here, but I'm finding it hard to make room for them, let alone in a high enough number to make them relevant. Maybe I'll try a set of Remands and/or Muddle the Mixtures, though.
Sideboard is still in development.
A bit (ok, maybe TOO MUCH) slow and frail to be competitive, but overall, I find this deck very fun to play with; it can pull of some explosive wins out of nowhere if left unchecked.
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4 Grand Architect
4 Spellskite
3 Drift of Phantasms
4 Sleight of Hand
4 Serum Visions
4 Defense Grid
4 Into the Roil
3 Fabricate
3 Blue Sun's Zenith
1 Banefire
This is much more focused on the combo than the original build. Additionally, I cut the slower combo.
Pili-Pala + Grand Architect - Combo pieces. No further explanation?
Spellskite - To protect the combo. Anything that can target either piece can also target Spellskite.
Drift of Phantasms, Fabricate - Tutors for combo and for Blue Sun's Zenith
Gitaxian Probe, Sleight of Hand, Serum Visions - Dig dig dig
Defense Grid - To protect the combo. No instant speed disruption and no counters in the early turns.
Into the Roil - For any pesky Gaddock Teeg or Witchbane Orb we may encounter.
Blue Sun's Zenith - Digs and kills. Can do so at instant speed!
Banefire - Uncounterable, unpreventable kill card.
Personally, I feel that going mono colour with this will make it much more consistent. I'm going to start testing this deck immediately!
Thanks!
As for your question, I didn't want to run win conditions that would become dead cards if I failed to assemble the combo; in order to run X-cc burn spells, I'd need to splash for red. And if I do have the combo, the Blue Zenith is just as effective as any one of them.
Banefire has the argument of being uncounterable, but I'm not worried about my win cons being vulnerable to countermagic, because if the opponent DID have countermagic, chances are I wouldn't be able to assemble the combo in the first place.
Note: indeed, Emrakul is a dead card most of the time, but he could theoretically be hardcast in an actual game even without the combo, with the right cards and if the game draws out long enough. Without red mana, I couldn't say the same about the burn spells (I could add a random Mountain for the Simulacrum to get, but I don't think it's worth it).
Jace's Trolling ---
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Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
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If going for the Golem, then you have Treasure Mage to find him, although it's the same as Fabricate, it at least gives you a blocker which will probably be necessary when trying to stay alive long enough to combo out. We'd be in blue most likely no matter what combo we ran...so what about a teachings shell to get the win-cons. Mystical Teachings gives us instant speed search for Blue Sun's Zenith and Comet Storm.
Hardest part would be staying alive long enough to ramp up to Composite Golem mana. From there, everything's instant speed as long as you at least had a Teachings in hand...unless I'm missing some details.
EDIT: I guess they could destroy the Deathmantle with the trigger on the stack...but if they have instant speed artifact removal, then they could kill Pili Pala also.
If the OP discovered the Golem combo, good catch, I hadn't heard of that yet!
EDIT: I thought more about this on the way to work this morning...I think you'd almost need Grand Architect in here just for the ramp aspect. Etherium Sculptor, Grand Architect, tap Sculptor to lay down Nim Deathmantle and a Spellskite, Treasure Mage getting Composite Golem, tap all to play golem, combo. I know that's slightly on the side of the perfect hand argument, but regardless that is a turn three win and there's plenty of support for that. Plus you don't need the Spellskite...it just helps protect your guys and/or your Deathmantle.
No, I didn't discover that combo; it's been there for a while now.
It's the combo I like more, too. In fact, the first version of the deck didn't have Pili; the Architect was there just for acceleration.
I used to have Treasure Mage in the deck, but there used to be more 6+cc artifacts for it to fetch as well; now that the Golem is the only one, I don't think keeping the Mage is a good idea. Mystical Teachings isn't very good for that same reason (very few instants and no flash cards).
However, I'm cutting the Azure Mage and 1-2 other cards for 2-3 copies of Drift of Phantasms; it's clearly the second best tutor here, next to Fabricate: it can fetch not only the Architect AND BSZ, but also O-Ring, O-Stone and the Staff. When tutoring is not necessary, it also makes a decent blocker (0/5 flier) and is great alongside the Architect (a 1/6 flier that can both block and tap for :2mana:). Oh, and it's Titan-recurrable to boot.
You're right, the correct time to break the Golem/Deathmantle combo (with either artifact removal or GY hate) is when the Deathmantle trigger is on the stack. Leyline of the Void also shuts it down, and Stony Silence shuts the ENTIRE deck down.
Hmm... I'm considering Spellskite on the SB against stuff like Exarch-Twin and potential opposing artifact hate (especially those Ancient Grudges that sit on the SBs).
When I used the Golem/Deathmantle combo alone, I did exactly as you said: Sculptor for extra accel, Mage for the Golem. It did work on the paper, but when I pit the deck against real-life opponents, it became evident that I was focusing too much on comboing as fast as I could, while neglecting survivability.
Anyway, with what you said above, it's combo on T4, not T3; a T3 combo with Golem + Deathmantle would require green:
-T1: Forest, Birds of Paradise/Noble Hierarch;
-T2: Island, Grand Architect, tap it for Nim Deathmantle;
-T3: Land, Composite Golem, combo.
Jace's Trolling ---
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Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
I can see a couple Wurmcoils being solid here.
And I see what you mean by the teachings argument. I just never liked the Transmute thing. If you could do it as an instant, it'd be so much better so you didn't have to do it on your turn. And if you're worried about things such as Stony Silence, Leyline of the Void, etc, then a teachings toolbox could have all the spells necessary to disrupt any combo hate. It would also help to go off on turn three with the Pili Pala combo even if you were attacking into a lethal block...you could combo off with an Architect on the board. Transmute won't allow you to do that. Plus you could flashback teachings to get two cards that same turn. Counterspell backup maybe?
There's a couple ways to take this deck...I think I'm coming back around to the idea of implementing both combos here. I like this concept.
Yeah, I had Wurmcoils, plus a singleton Blightsteel Colossus as another win con (back then, the deck had enough accel to get a T5 Colossus WITHOUT the combo).
I dropped the wurms when I changed the deck from U/B to W/U; Sun Titan took the spot when I realized how powerful he was here, with 75% of the combo pieces and even the removal and some other stuff being cards he could "reanimate".
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
imo the composite golem + nim deathmantle seems too mana intensive. Pili-Pala can go off turn 3-4 unmolested to the surprise of bewildered opponents who didnt think of pili-pala as threat lol
4 Azure Mage
2 Drift of Phantasms
4 Grand Architect
4 Pili-Pala
1 Banefire
1 Blue Sun's Zenith
2 Deprive
2 Into the Roil
4 Muddle the Mixture
4 Serum Visions
4 Sleight of Hand
2 Spell Pierce
3 Telling Time
2 Train of Thought
20 Island
3 Apostle's Blessing
1 Dispel
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Exsanguinate
2 Gigadrowse
1 Pyromatics
1 Swiftfoot Boots
3 Treasure Mage
2 Wurmcoil Engine
Azure Mage or Train of thought lets you nearly draw your deck out.
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
I saw your thread before I made this one.
Yes, I agree that 8 mana seems to be too much at first, but it's doable with proper ramping. In my deck, for example:
T1: Land;
T2: Land, Everflowing Chalice;
T3: Land, Grand Architect, tap it for :2mana:, Nim Deathmantle;
T4: if the Architect is still around, Composite Golem (don't even need the 4th land drop), combo. If not, the combo may still go off on T5 if no land drops are missed.
As for the Pili-Pala going off unmolested, you'd be surprised at how often it DOESN'T go unmolested; last saturday, my opponent didn't know what the Pili was for, yet he cast a Lightning Bolt on it, just because it had flying, LMAO.
In other matches, the Pili also ate removal/counterspell more often than not, especially when the opponent had already witnessed (or had been destroyed by) the combo and knew what was coming next, or if s/he is playing heavy aggro and wants potential blockers out of the way.
Nonetheless, I agree with you: there are still a lot of players who completely ignore an early (or even late, sometimes) Pili; that, actually, is the main selling point of the Pili/Architect combo. Once the opposition is fully aware of it, the Pili won't survive until the next untap step, unless the opponents run out of answers.
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
True. Thousand Year Elixer Helps though. Third turn Elixer, fourth turn drop architect, tap itself for pili, use one blue to paint, and it's combo off. I've been using apostle's blessing and even gigadrowse as countermeasure to protect the combo. Muddle the mixture keeps searching for more Pili-Pala copies.
I really do like the idea of another infinite mana engine, since the pili-architect shell is very flexible
:symwr:BorosBGR Living End(Primer) W Soul Sisters Tokens
UGrand Architect+Pili-Pala Infinite combo:symq::chaos:
It says legacy due to Dissipate showing up as a Mirage card. The nice thing with the double infinite mana engine is that if you surprise your opponent with the 1st on game 1, he/she may not be expecting the 2nd mana engine if he/she sideboarded in hate for the 1st one
22x Island
Creatures:
3x Composite Golem
3x Drift of Phantasms
1x Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4x Grand Architect
3x Pili-Pala
2x Treasure Mage
Spells:
3x Apostle's Blessing
3x Blue Sun's Zenith
2x Condescend
3x Dissipate
3x Fabricate
2x Gitaxian Probe
3x Muddle the Mixture
3x Nim Deathmantle
3x Noxious revival
3x Into the Roil
4x Surgical Extraction
3x Thirst for Knowledge
2x Vapor Snag
Maybeboard:
4x Pact of Negation
You can probably drop to an all blue mana base which makes it a bit easier. The Sun Titans are nice for recursion but why run with that when you can use a Noxious Revival at the end of their turn? Pact of Negation is excellent when you combo off and you are tapped out. It is a bit pricey though.
Hence the counters, unsummons, and other control elements. This deck can also feasibly go off by turn 3 or 4. How is that any different?
If you still want to keep in white, you need Silence or Grand Abolisher to better protect your combo.
Plus allows you to draw your deck/gain infinite life.
http://forums.mtgsalvation.com/showthread.php?t=519290
Great idea! I hadn't thought of that when this deck was U/B, not only because I lacked enough copies of Tezz (I have only one and don't use proxies much :p), but also because I wasn't using the Staff at the time.
I guess it's time to go get more copies.
I still don't want to give up on white, though, so maybe I'll try an Esper (W/U/B) build.
I had thought of that at first... but then, sadly, I saw that the Architect is not a wizard (it's an artificer), so the Aethermage can't fetch it.
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
So it's not really infinite mana as much as it's another win-con by gaining infinite life or a way of drawing your deck until you get the cards you want. I guess this really adds to the Golem/Deathmantle combo more than the Pili Pala one.
The Pili Pala combo requires Grand Architect so it adds to both. I think a U/B version is very strong, I'll think about this one for a bit.
But it still works. Architect can make it a blue creature.
Yeah but I was looking at it from the viewpoint of once you draw your whole deck with the Staff combo, the Golem/Deathmantle combo benefits the most since it can happen all in that same turn. The Pili Pala combo requires you to play Pili Pala and then wait a turn for it to lose summoning sickness.
That's of course considering that you don't already have an active Pili Pala in play.
Actually, Tezzeret also has a small synergy with Pili-Pala; a 1/1 flying dude is not very impressive on his own, but a 5/5 flying dude is usually something the opponent should be worried about.
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
Very true. I can see a UB version with Tezz. Black would give access to hand disruption and some decent spot removal.
Also, as another win-con with the Golem combo, what do you think about Disciple of the Vault? Doesn't require another spell to cast from the infinite mana if he's in play as also has synergy with the rest of the deck.
Also I'm going to throw this out there...Skill Borrower. She's blue, an artifact and can be your Golem or Pili Pala 5x-8x. Especially if we have library manipulation, she could be at least a consideration.
And I can't really see Phyrexian Metamorph being bad in this deck either.
Skill Borrower is a great idea! She's fetchable with Vedalken Aethermage, Fabricate, and Drift of Phantasms! Excellent ways to thin out the deck and dig for those combo pieces.
The U/B variant is looking pretty strong.
I wouldn't get too excited...as much as I'd like to take credit for the suggestion, this just feels like one of those "looked good on paper" ideas. Hopefully not though since I have a playset plus a foil
Seriously though this definitely needs testing before we'll know if it's good or not.
I think I'll sleeve up a UB list soon and see what happens.
EDIT: just realized how great the synergy between Skill Borrower and Academy Ruins is. I assume we'd be running at least 1 or 2 copies of the Ruins anyway.
The problem with the Elixir is that Pili-Pala is the only creature who will actually benefit from it; the Architect can tap (itself and other creatures) for mana regardless of summoning sickness, and the other creatures do not tap for their abilities. The Elixir is better in a deck with a heavier focus on creature activated abilities that causes them to tap (such as Necrotic Ooze decks).
The Transmuter + Elixir is cool, though; before I made this deck, I was running a modified version Jacob Van Luren's Extended deck, that used that strategy (you can see the deck here: http://www.wizards.com/magic/magazine/Article.aspx?x=mtg/daily/boab/129)
Jace's Trolling ---
Instant
Split Second
Exile target spell, then return Jace's Trolling to its owner's hand.
"Yeah, sure... when pigs fly."
-Mark Rosewater about printing this card
I agree, I was never a fan of the Elixir even when I had a T2 Transmuter deck. It always seemed underwhelming. Plus this deck is quickly filling up with three drops.
Decklist coming soon...as soon as I can get done this pile of work I have on my desk